~~wherein reena says dirty words.
Jan. 30th, 2003 09:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaso... i haven't really ranted on this before, but--
yes. hp slashy smut writing, realism, in-character kink and so on. w00t!
ha. i can't even believe i'm talking about this. well, there are several factors why. firstly, i'm thinking/writing my smutfic for aja. secondly, there's the discussion about the unrealistic sex prevalent in fanfic (on the `hp outer circle' list)-- ie, "monster cocks" and unrealistic bdsm and such in (hp) slash.
well, as a smut reader, i haven't really found that unrealistic sex is the biggest problem, more like, really dry and unexciting and "and then slot went into conjunction with slot b" type of sex. but that's just me. as a writer, i'm of course, somewhat paranoid, because far be it from me to think i write realistic anything, forget gay sex. i mean, people may -like- it, but people are easy when it comes to smut. aren't they?
but anyway, there's always a lot of cross-fandom discussion about how to make gay sex more realistic and true-to-life and um... correct. these are typically also the people who want "realistically gay male" characters, and of course that is perfectly understandable, for who really -wants- "girls with dicks" anyway (er... ok, i won't go there).
but it occurred to me that all this really doesn't matter to me. what matters to me is emotional realism and intensity and desire and power-play and passion. and when i say "power play", i don't mean bdsm, because that's just the shortcut people use. real power-play occurs all the time, between every couple, in a million gazillion different ways. but, in the case of harry & draco, it's inevitable-- they're competitive, they're antagonistic, there's going to be a struggle to dominate, and i don't mean who gets to be on the bottom.
far too many sex scenes are written less emotionally than some descriptions of soccer matches i've seen. and of course there are those that seem sappier than a care-bears reunion, obviously, as well. either there's lots of curt, minimalist description that seems to rely almost entirely on the reader's finding that particular set of actions extremely sexy (ie, you'd have to operate very visually, and need the barest suggestion of action in order to visualize not only the actual sex, but the emotions that go along). or, there's almost a complete dearth of visual/physical description, which not only tends to use euphemisms for what it -does- describe, but may even use metaphors and pat phrases for the -emotional- component as well (ie, "their hearts flowed like butter as they tenderly embraced, their bodies moving in unison as they reached their final, most soul-wrenching pleasure" or something).
i find that a bigger problem than what size of cock the writer describes, or whether they used lube or not. who bloody well cares if they used lube or how or why, if it's written like a cellphone-usage manual? what are you, filming it??! making a sex-ed movie? what??
i've said this awhile ago, to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
earthquake1906. what i think is most important for a well-done sex scene is the transmission of the character's desire. a psychological portrait, showing their need, their fear, their desperation-- putting the reader in their heads, letting them see and feel and know what's going on. of course, describing the physical actions is also important-- as important as at any other time in the story. because sex is a mixture of inner landscape and body-language. that is it. there is no necessary dialogue, no rules and no framework, really. almost anything can be "sex" to the characters.
the scenes i found most successful used the emotional momentum and drive of the previous scenes, of the rest of the story, to set up a situation where desire and circumstance come together and everything kind of connects and um... climaxes, so to speak. ahem. and you have some sort of reflection of their dynamic for the rest of the fic-- angry, empty, sad, desperate, tender, v. v. horny ("ack! have to have you NOW!").... i think when the sex is a basic part of the narrative, it doesn't matter whether there's lube or not, it's realistic.
and of course, conversely, the sex can be the most anatomically correct thing to come down the pike since the latest "big book of gay sex" came out or whatever, but if it doesn't seem to make complete sense that it's happening right then, between these two people, it's worthless to me (and a talented writer can set up this believability within mere paragraphs. it doesn't take chapters and chapters of set-up or anything)..
maybe i just don't get it. i mean, it's not like i want to see endless orgies of neverending teenage-boy endurance, monstrous-sized penises and orgasms by nipple-biting, or whatever unrealistic thing. but what good writer does that? that's ridiculous. who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake? that's just lame to start with. i mean, describing the penis is one thing, if you're using a character's pov who'd be looking at it and paying attention. suddenly turning the character into a porn-star is another.
also, i was thinking about bdsm in the context of hp slash and had to admit that i just "don't get it". i mean, i've seen people rant about how it's important to have realistic bdsm and so on... but what this doesn't bring into question is -why- and -how- you're using this in your story. the only people who'd have enough experience to possibly do it "realistically" is adults. as i haven't read any adult slash, i wouldn't know how it all works, but the major adult pairing is sirius/remus where i'd -seriously- doubt there'd be any humiliation/overt power rituals involved. since they're friends, and stuff.
this brings up another point. why are you writing these characters into this scenario. just because it's a sexual scenario doesn't mean you could be out-of-character and it would be ok. and yes, i believe there's definitely such a thing as in-character sex. most definitely. and i think writer learning this is miles more important than writers learning the proper realistic gay male behavior during sex. more than a gay male, this is a particular character. a character who (like a "real person") has things they wouldn't be caught dead doing, sexually. things that they have "issues" with. things they probably would balk at. things they wouldn't know about. and so on.
i guess i just see a lot of sex-scenes written which are blatantly just an extension of the writer's happy little fantasy world. it doesn't matter to the writer -who- the characters are, as much as what they're doing. this is my impression from every draco/lucius incest and harry/lucius and draco/snape (and arguably harry/snape) fic that i've ever read. there is argument, even, whether liking draco is in character for harry at all. to make it -lucius-, and then to make it consensual, and then to make it bdsm, is completely disregarding almost everything about harry. of course, if it's nonconsensual pwp, once again i call into question why the author writes it, but it's ok, masturbation is a good thing (er, and just because it doesn't "do it" for me, doesn't mean that spreading the sexy is a bad thing either-- it's just worthless as far as literature goes).
so again. what is with this need for realism of bdsm scenes in a fandom like harry potter, where i would argue there is -no- realistic pairing that would easily incorporate it? this is realistic bdsm for the sake of realistic bdsm, and if you're that eager to write/read that, why not just, oh, i dunno, do it or something?
and anyway. slash by nature is written about (seemingly) straight guys, who may or may not have had experience with girls, but certainly haven't had much (or, to be safe, any) experience with guys. these people are likely to be reticent and clumsy and inexperienced when it comes to their initial sexual interactions with another male. bdsm is a kink. it is something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough, isn't arousing enough, isn't exciting enough. they need... more. whereas for -these- guys, being attracted to each other at all is likely to be like a frying pan hitting them on the side of the head. um. overwhelming. shocking. (probably) very arousing, as in-- unusual and new and exciting.
you would have to justify two characters wanting to enact these elaborate power-play rituals with each other. why are they doing this? how does this fit into their relationship? are you sure this is what they'd want? and would they go about it in quite that way, or would they just act on the whole instinctual, natural power-play that occurs in any relationship?
say it's tom riddle doing it with um... i dunno... ginny. there are not going to be any safe-words, that's for sure. i mean, in hp, anyone i can think of who'd want to be sadistic is basically a death-eater, and are evil to start with. this is a universe where evil is a very tangible thing. it's not a game. it's not a fantasy. it's life and death and it's happening all the time, completely outside of the bedroom. that is not so say, there isn't likely to be power-play in the bedroom just because some things are just a -tad- more... blatant than in "real life", already, in this universe. i'm just saying, in the potterverse, sadism isn't really a game, not even at hogwarts. being a slytherin, being mean, being cunning and amoral isn't a joke. it's all taken pretty seriously. you're in or you're out. slytherins vs. gryffindors, light vs. dark.
you'd have to set up your s&m in that context. and if it's between main players-- especially characters on opposite sides of this divide-- you'd have to really question what you're saying, here. if they're adults, they're either sadistic and evil or good and kind (in most blunt terms). if they're teenagers, they probably don't have enough experience to get too kinky. anyway. i think i ran out of steam, again ^^;;
yes. hp slashy smut writing, realism, in-character kink and so on. w00t!
ha. i can't even believe i'm talking about this. well, there are several factors why. firstly, i'm thinking/writing my smutfic for aja. secondly, there's the discussion about the unrealistic sex prevalent in fanfic (on the `hp outer circle' list)-- ie, "monster cocks" and unrealistic bdsm and such in (hp) slash.
well, as a smut reader, i haven't really found that unrealistic sex is the biggest problem, more like, really dry and unexciting and "and then slot went into conjunction with slot b" type of sex. but that's just me. as a writer, i'm of course, somewhat paranoid, because far be it from me to think i write realistic anything, forget gay sex. i mean, people may -like- it, but people are easy when it comes to smut. aren't they?
but anyway, there's always a lot of cross-fandom discussion about how to make gay sex more realistic and true-to-life and um... correct. these are typically also the people who want "realistically gay male" characters, and of course that is perfectly understandable, for who really -wants- "girls with dicks" anyway (er... ok, i won't go there).
but it occurred to me that all this really doesn't matter to me. what matters to me is emotional realism and intensity and desire and power-play and passion. and when i say "power play", i don't mean bdsm, because that's just the shortcut people use. real power-play occurs all the time, between every couple, in a million gazillion different ways. but, in the case of harry & draco, it's inevitable-- they're competitive, they're antagonistic, there's going to be a struggle to dominate, and i don't mean who gets to be on the bottom.
far too many sex scenes are written less emotionally than some descriptions of soccer matches i've seen. and of course there are those that seem sappier than a care-bears reunion, obviously, as well. either there's lots of curt, minimalist description that seems to rely almost entirely on the reader's finding that particular set of actions extremely sexy (ie, you'd have to operate very visually, and need the barest suggestion of action in order to visualize not only the actual sex, but the emotions that go along). or, there's almost a complete dearth of visual/physical description, which not only tends to use euphemisms for what it -does- describe, but may even use metaphors and pat phrases for the -emotional- component as well (ie, "their hearts flowed like butter as they tenderly embraced, their bodies moving in unison as they reached their final, most soul-wrenching pleasure" or something).
i find that a bigger problem than what size of cock the writer describes, or whether they used lube or not. who bloody well cares if they used lube or how or why, if it's written like a cellphone-usage manual? what are you, filming it??! making a sex-ed movie? what??
i've said this awhile ago, to
earthquake1906. what i think is most important for a well-done sex scene is the transmission of the character's desire. a psychological portrait, showing their need, their fear, their desperation-- putting the reader in their heads, letting them see and feel and know what's going on. of course, describing the physical actions is also important-- as important as at any other time in the story. because sex is a mixture of inner landscape and body-language. that is it. there is no necessary dialogue, no rules and no framework, really. almost anything can be "sex" to the characters. the scenes i found most successful used the emotional momentum and drive of the previous scenes, of the rest of the story, to set up a situation where desire and circumstance come together and everything kind of connects and um... climaxes, so to speak. ahem. and you have some sort of reflection of their dynamic for the rest of the fic-- angry, empty, sad, desperate, tender, v. v. horny ("ack! have to have you NOW!").... i think when the sex is a basic part of the narrative, it doesn't matter whether there's lube or not, it's realistic.
and of course, conversely, the sex can be the most anatomically correct thing to come down the pike since the latest "big book of gay sex" came out or whatever, but if it doesn't seem to make complete sense that it's happening right then, between these two people, it's worthless to me (and a talented writer can set up this believability within mere paragraphs. it doesn't take chapters and chapters of set-up or anything)..
maybe i just don't get it. i mean, it's not like i want to see endless orgies of neverending teenage-boy endurance, monstrous-sized penises and orgasms by nipple-biting, or whatever unrealistic thing. but what good writer does that? that's ridiculous. who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake? that's just lame to start with. i mean, describing the penis is one thing, if you're using a character's pov who'd be looking at it and paying attention. suddenly turning the character into a porn-star is another.
also, i was thinking about bdsm in the context of hp slash and had to admit that i just "don't get it". i mean, i've seen people rant about how it's important to have realistic bdsm and so on... but what this doesn't bring into question is -why- and -how- you're using this in your story. the only people who'd have enough experience to possibly do it "realistically" is adults. as i haven't read any adult slash, i wouldn't know how it all works, but the major adult pairing is sirius/remus where i'd -seriously- doubt there'd be any humiliation/overt power rituals involved. since they're friends, and stuff.
this brings up another point. why are you writing these characters into this scenario. just because it's a sexual scenario doesn't mean you could be out-of-character and it would be ok. and yes, i believe there's definitely such a thing as in-character sex. most definitely. and i think writer learning this is miles more important than writers learning the proper realistic gay male behavior during sex. more than a gay male, this is a particular character. a character who (like a "real person") has things they wouldn't be caught dead doing, sexually. things that they have "issues" with. things they probably would balk at. things they wouldn't know about. and so on.
i guess i just see a lot of sex-scenes written which are blatantly just an extension of the writer's happy little fantasy world. it doesn't matter to the writer -who- the characters are, as much as what they're doing. this is my impression from every draco/lucius incest and harry/lucius and draco/snape (and arguably harry/snape) fic that i've ever read. there is argument, even, whether liking draco is in character for harry at all. to make it -lucius-, and then to make it consensual, and then to make it bdsm, is completely disregarding almost everything about harry. of course, if it's nonconsensual pwp, once again i call into question why the author writes it, but it's ok, masturbation is a good thing (er, and just because it doesn't "do it" for me, doesn't mean that spreading the sexy is a bad thing either-- it's just worthless as far as literature goes).
so again. what is with this need for realism of bdsm scenes in a fandom like harry potter, where i would argue there is -no- realistic pairing that would easily incorporate it? this is realistic bdsm for the sake of realistic bdsm, and if you're that eager to write/read that, why not just, oh, i dunno, do it or something?
and anyway. slash by nature is written about (seemingly) straight guys, who may or may not have had experience with girls, but certainly haven't had much (or, to be safe, any) experience with guys. these people are likely to be reticent and clumsy and inexperienced when it comes to their initial sexual interactions with another male. bdsm is a kink. it is something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough, isn't arousing enough, isn't exciting enough. they need... more. whereas for -these- guys, being attracted to each other at all is likely to be like a frying pan hitting them on the side of the head. um. overwhelming. shocking. (probably) very arousing, as in-- unusual and new and exciting.
you would have to justify two characters wanting to enact these elaborate power-play rituals with each other. why are they doing this? how does this fit into their relationship? are you sure this is what they'd want? and would they go about it in quite that way, or would they just act on the whole instinctual, natural power-play that occurs in any relationship?
say it's tom riddle doing it with um... i dunno... ginny. there are not going to be any safe-words, that's for sure. i mean, in hp, anyone i can think of who'd want to be sadistic is basically a death-eater, and are evil to start with. this is a universe where evil is a very tangible thing. it's not a game. it's not a fantasy. it's life and death and it's happening all the time, completely outside of the bedroom. that is not so say, there isn't likely to be power-play in the bedroom just because some things are just a -tad- more... blatant than in "real life", already, in this universe. i'm just saying, in the potterverse, sadism isn't really a game, not even at hogwarts. being a slytherin, being mean, being cunning and amoral isn't a joke. it's all taken pretty seriously. you're in or you're out. slytherins vs. gryffindors, light vs. dark.
you'd have to set up your s&m in that context. and if it's between main players-- especially characters on opposite sides of this divide-- you'd have to really question what you're saying, here. if they're adults, they're either sadistic and evil or good and kind (in most blunt terms). if they're teenagers, they probably don't have enough experience to get too kinky. anyway. i think i ran out of steam, again ^^;;
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re: (now is when I really miss my "protect me from what I want" icon)
Date: 2003-01-30 10:25 pm (UTC)*personality* streak to be capable of performing a sexually sadist act
hmm. you really gave me a lot to think about.
i admit i know v. little about this (more than -some- but not enough), so that's why i was kind of laughing at myself for doing it at all...
hmm. it seems you alternated between saying there's no need for an actual sadistic personality trait/dynamic in the relationship, and it's just an exploration of possibilities, a roleplay, and saying that they're so messed up, they could get into it -because- it wasn't a game.
well, it's the "exploring alternatives" thing that strikes me as weird for the student characters (y'know, either virgins or pretty close), anyway. since they've barely started, why are they exploring alternatives?
as far as between adult/student or adult/adult (which i have v. little experience with)... i can see your point.
i mean, i -hate- the whole, "let's write a self-hating harry" thing, sexually or otherwise, but.... and i -still- don't think he'd -ever- touch lucius malfoy, a death-eater, a servant of the guy who killed his parents, but...
yah. it's just, with harry, anyway, yes he's had all this baggage, but canonically so far, he -seems- to be you know... relatively stable. brave, loyal, witty, social (to a point), moral, and so on. to harry, there are "bad people" who he doesn't want to associate with. if he were to want punishment/anything else from those "bad people" wouldn't he have to have "fallen" in ways other than sexual? which is automatically an AU type of harry, and i'm not sure how that relates to in-characterness vs out-of-characterness.
maybe the whole "scene" & "role-playing" thing seems so... muggle to me. i dunno.
i suppose wizards role-play. heh. lockhart and stuff... but i dunno.
just, the line between role-play and real would be weird to tread, somewhere where evil is so blatant and omnipresent and pervasive.
and if it -is- real, like say, i'm pretty sure harry/lucius would be (because you see, lucius -does- want to hurt harry)... it gets all weird.
i can see harry wanting to give up control, easily, yes. but you can do that with simple physical overpowering, with tying someone's hands or using a spell-- and here we start with the whole, "but would they use spells?" thing.
plenty of sex-scenes written about harry & draco have harry give up control as much as draco, and it not have an impact on the way they act around each other usually (ie, there are believable fics where harry is the "bottom" but is normal, independent harry all the rest of the time, or whatever).
just, while torture is a throwback to the middle ages in a way-- whips, chains, dungeons, leather, metal-- in the wizarding world, this is still happening in real life. there are dungeons in malfoy manor that most probably aren't used for play.
and that's what really bothers me about the idea of making bdsm in the potterverse muggle-realistic. because the associations seem all different to me.
but yes, i realize i made some blatant errors, and thanks for calling me on them ^^
Re: (now is when I really miss my "protect me from what I want" icon)
Date: 2003-01-30 11:08 pm (UTC)it seems you alternated between saying there's no need for an actual sadistic personality trait/dynamic in the relationship, and it's just an exploration of possibilities, a roleplay, and saying that they're so messed up, they could get into it -because- it wasn't a game.
Hmm, I guess there were really two things I was trying to say. One, is that in a *healthy* relationship (ie, of the kind that Harry and Draco are often portrayed as, at least eventually, having, or of the typical Sirius/Remus "best friends + lovers" fic), BDSM and roleplays of all sorts can be bedroom activities that don't much impact the way the couple relates to each other in the nonsexual spheres of their lives.
Two, is that in an *unhealthy* relationship, such as in a fic where Harry has sought out Lucius deliberately to be abused (and perhaps *because* he knows the lines are to be blurred), there is a legitimate case to be made that his desire could be directly related to his own neuroses, insecurities, lack of self-worth, and desire to avoid adult responsibilities.
I should probably say for the record that I think people get into kinks for all sorts of reasons, some healthy, some not. Most of the folks I know are lucky in that, even if they have some unhealthy motivations behind their desires, they understand that and are able to, I guess, rise above it and reclaim their enjoyment of that part of themselves. I imagine though that there are probably also people who do use kink the way my Harry in the Lucius example does.
On the "why are virgins seeking to explore alternatives" thing, I dunno. Some fics make it work, some don't. I highly doubt that most teen virgins would seek out a kinky experience as their first, second, or even third sexual act. But I for one knew from a very young age some of the kinks I was interested in... *if* I'd been lucky enough to have an open, understanding, and accepting lover when I was, say, 16, I can indeed imagine having wanted to explore them too. I can easily picture the sensation of sudden closeness with a new lover, as a teenager, to be a kind of rush of "wow, I can share anything with this person!" which could easily give to a desire to trust that person with everything, both the fantasy and the reality of following through with it. I can't speak from certainty though, as I wasn't lucky enough to have a lover as a teenager at all, but then, the early ages at which most fic characters have sex is an entirely different discussion :D.
2nd response, part 2
Date: 2003-01-30 11:10 pm (UTC)I'll give you that, but I'm not entirely sure about it. I think JKR portrays Harry as very stable, but I'll be very curious to see whether she has the GoF events affect him at all. If she doesn't, she'll either be portraying him as inhuman, or as deeply, dysfunctionally out of touch with his own emotions and the ability to express them. We've seen Harry become obsessive in canon (ie, the "Am I the Heir of Slytherin" angst), and we've seen him similarly slip into what, if the books weren't told from his POV, might look like adolescent depression. JKR portrays him as someone easily able to bounce back, and well-grounded, but at the same time, I think there's enough in canon to make a good case for a messed-up IC Harry.
Particularly, we have no idea how his budding sexuality will affect him (even if we assume JKR's Harry is straight as an arrow). For many people, after all, sexuality brings up all sorts of issues, and often brings up long-buried childhood issues of a nonsexual nature that have become part of a person's personal neuroses and that get in the way of their being truly in touch with their sexuality. I guess I see it as very canon for any Harry older than the end of book 4 to have psychological issues, though I do think an author would have to provide more triggering circumstances than the end of GoF alone before Harry could get as far gone as the Harry of the H/L dynamic I talked about. But as a potential road he might take, yeah.
just, while torture is a throwback to the middle ages in a way-- whips, chains, dungeons, leather, metal-- in the wizarding world, this is still happening in real life. there are dungeons in malfoy manor that most probably aren't used for play.
and that's what really bothers me about the idea of making bdsm in the potterverse muggle-realistic. because the associations seem all different to me.
Very good point, that. I know that, for one, I find fics where Harry is into bondage but that make *no mention of any kind* of the fact that he was tied up and helpless through most of the graveyard scene of GoF to be less serious, and less believable, than fics where at least a passing reference is thrown in that Harry likes bondage *despite* that experience. I'd personally find it a ton more intriguing, and interesting to read, if he likes it *because* of his experiences, but hey, that's me. :D.
And personally, I have never found flogging much erotic, anyway, so fics that rely on it (mercifully I don't really recall any) wouldn't do much for me. I agree that it's a fine line to tread in situations like that, where the implements of the sexual scene would honestly resemble instruments of torture. What I'm defending in healthy-relationship fics, because I *do* think it works, for me, both erotically and characterizationally, is a 'softer' kind of BDSM, I guess. As in, maybe one of the boys is bound, but it's with scarves, or with soft ropes (bondage ropes are actually rather nice feeling), not with actual *painful for real* manacles of metal or anything. The most I can see any of the teens using is leather that's not padded on the inside, and even then, I doubt they'd think of it. (Actually, they might try unpadded leather cos that's what they could conjure up, then realize it actually hurts, and get annoyed with it and frustrated, and hey, that I can totally see :D).
2nd response, part 3
Date: 2003-01-30 11:11 pm (UTC)hehe. :D
Re: 2nd response, part 3
Date: 2003-02-01 07:43 am (UTC)yes, Erica, please write that fic!
*begs*