. . .

[reenka]

I think I'm sort of chagrined-- or ashamed-- or something, that I really let this sort of thing get to me:
    The manga isn't really "yaoi," as other reviewers have mentioned; it focuses more on the characters' feelings and struggles rather than sex. So if you're looking for mindless sex, look elsewhere.

Le sigh. See, I don't even care what the person's opinion is or whatever, and I'm not that invested that particular manga, either, but just-- well, they're incorrect about the definition of yaoi (ie, it having to be 'mindless sex'), and even so it's not like they said 'well, it's shounen ai rather than yaoi' or whatever. Arg. It's like, what, is it not too gay for you?? I know, I know I'm overreacting but I hate having that knee-jerk desire to 're-educate' people. I think it's like, well, not important how well-versed they are in the jargon of the genre if they're not too into it and/or aren't really big fans, but at the same time it's so offensive when someone doesn't know what they're talking about and comes off like a total ass because they think they do. -.- I mean, not that you have to always know (I certainly don't), but at least don't spread misinformation -.-

What bothers me even more is my immediate suspicion that the only reason a person would -have- such a misconception is that they just don't -care- to know any better, so if I or someone else ever bothered correcting them they would either a) ignore it or b) insist they're right.

Of course, I could write a whole essay about what bothers me about that small little statement, like the implication that sex is bad, like the implication that too much -gay- sex is 'mindless' as well as bad, like the implication that yaoi sucks (because of sex? or gayness? or both?) and because of the general moronic ignorance being on display. And yet, I mean, I really shouldn't bother with this or the million things like it I come across-- there's too many offenders to waste my time & energy on, but. I think it's just hard to reconcile myself with the sheer futility of expecting people to care enough to research the things they get interested in and to get the 'real facts' before they spew bullshit.

Maybe the bottom line is that I always need something to be bitter and/or excited about, and. I really need to get a life. That's what it all comes down to, right :> That said, I can't resist the fantasies of smacking people every time someone utters the words 'mindless' and 'sex' as if they were born to go together. I'm really hopeless -.-

Actually, to make myself feel better, I found a link for different types of generalization fallacies, here. Yes Reena, escape into utter academic bullshit rhetoric, escape! Escape! ^^;;;

Comments

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

Manga is gay.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I concur!

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

Ten hundred thousand billion points for lj name.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee, I'm still pleased over the time you had 'fandom isn't a communist state' for an lj name ♥

[arboretum]

Are you just ticked off over the "mindless" part? Because yaoi really does mean PWP -- and IIRC, shounen-ai isn't really in use anymore in Japan; the term seems to be boy('s/s' I have no idea, apostrophes totally don't translate to Japanese, sooo... whatever. XD) love, or BL?

'course, the definitions can get fuzzy -- you can have explicit sex with character exploration all in one manga (or the complete opposite, too..... but who wants to read that? XD) in which case, I'm not sure what people would categorize it as? I still call Viewfinder and its like BL manga, but I think I've gotten too used to that term, and maybe I just use it for everything.

[arboretum]

Also - I think I've read the particular manga in question, and (they all blur together after a while! I could be wrong!) I don't recall it being particularly explicit? (It seemed to go on and on for ages about rings and misunderstandings and so on, which I personally found kind of dull XD -- so if the mangaka managed to put some sex somewhere in there, I must have totally missed it.) Anyway, that could account for that person's "this is not yaoi" opinion? (Also, mindless sex is not a bad thing sometimes!)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well yeah, that manga is definitely not explicit-- has no sex-scenes, etc. I wasn't claiming they were wrong about it not being yaoi, but rather being annoyed that yaoi apparently = mindless sex ^^;; Plus, no definition was given to what it actually was, so you could say they were in denial it was BL as well :>

[arboretum]

Oohhhhhhh okay. I can't really remember the manga too well, so I wasn't v. sure. Went and read the actual review, and in context, I definitely see the sort of condescending tone you seem to be bothered by. Alas! She sounds stupid, anyway, so screw her. (<-- my solution for everything.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Right, I know shounen-ai isn't in use, but it seems people are even less likely to know of -that- development. I think I've also heard that people have started calling -everything- 'yaoi'. Besides that, yeah, it's the feeling I got that this (shounen ai) title was 'better' than all the rest that -do- have sex in it, and honestly, nearly all the riskier/more interesting/intense titles recently have had sex in them. Like, nearly -all- my favorite mangaka draw sex of -some- sort. This (Only the Ring Finger Knows) is way in the minority in terms of being a good recent manga with only kissing. So I'm just all :/ :/ at the implications, ahahah.

And yeah, the major one being that you can't have in-depth character exploration if you have sex-- basically, the juxtaposition in the first place. It seems like people were justifying liking Ring Finger by saying it's not like those other, 'dirty' yaoi mangas or something ^^;; I think stuff like Under Grand Hotel and Sex Pistols and Junjou Romantica and Koi Ga Bokura-- all of that is explicit yaoi, and very dependent on character exploration, y'know, not at all PWPs. You -can- have PWPs in yaoi, but there's been more and more hardcore titles with plots, though I realize 10 years ago this wasn't the case. Now it's rare to find a title with no sex-scenes and a decent storyline that isn't some sort of mindless fluff, ahahaha :D

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Er, well, yaoi = mindless porn. Not that there's anything wrong with that but that's the way it goes. If you want to get really picky, you could say the manga is BL, but most Westerners don't like using it because they're afraid of the paedophillia overtones, so "yaoi" just gets used instead. BL can contain yaoi scenes, and technically yaoi stories are just a subset of the BL genre, but yeah. Yaoi = porn. Only the Ring Finger is not yaoi, though, because it doesn't really have sex scenes, but yeah, no one uses the term BL in the West, so *shrugs*... I'm not seeing the ignorance. Escept for the occasional use of the "shounen ai" term which I'm waiting for people to realise is totally outdated and not used in Japan anymore.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well... but lots of things that are yaoi-- like Junjou Romantica and Koi ga Bokura and Sex Pistols and tons of other stuff-- have sex-scenes and are not really 'mindless porn' at all. I wasn't saying Ring Finger is actually yaoi, but rather that the qualities for which it was praised-- character exploration, feelings, context, etc-- are also easily found in yaoi. Just with sex also. I don't really care -what- you call it; the thing that bothered me because it was incorrect was the juxtaposition/generalization going on.

Of course, if you're not reading the things I'm reading or don't like the things I like about them, fine-- but that doesn't make the generalization correct in that if you -are- looking for the sort of character development you have in Ring Finger except with porn, there's basically tons of that.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

have sex-scenes and are not really 'mindless porn' at all.

I dunno. One could argue that the explicitness and number of them is superfluous, if one wanted to.

but rather that the qualities for which it was praised-- character exploration, feelings, context, etc-- are also easily found in yaoi

True that. But yaoi is still basically porn, yannow?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

But yaoi is still basically porn, yannow?
Depends on the manga in my experience-- and I have quite a bit of experience ^^;; The explicitness and hardcore level varies greatly, as does the function sex serves (like, when Touko Kawai draws it, it seems not intended to titilate at all. I don't think that anything that contains sexual content is automatically porn, or Romeo & Juliet would be 'basically porn', and while you could argue that, most people wouldn't buy that argument, I daresay that reviewer included.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

and I have quite a bit of experience ^^;;

So have I :P And I do think Kawai's stuff titilates, just more on an emotional level, which is why I always get into trouble calling a lot oa yaoi "emotional porn". I don't mean anything that contains sex is porn, but anything designed to titilate (and, for me, that includes emotionally) is porn.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, you could call it emotional porn all you like-- but that would make Ring Finger also emotional porn, y'know? My only point was that it's not so far in spirit from the 'yaoi' it was being juxtaposed against. There's many titles where the actual in-and-out porn isn't the central attraction, but there's still sex there. There's also many titles where the sex is intended to mean something and serve the characterization & isn't 'mindless'. It's that sort of generalization and implied 'PG BL is Better' that annoyed me because it's just incorrect on a factual level also, as it's -not that different-.

being anal

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Or (like I now see other people have pointed out) the reviewer could be really really anal (heh) about terminology. Cuz I'm so hung up on being precise I wouldn't call Ring Finger "technically" yaoi either.

Aestheticism glossary and prob-needs-to-be-updated-again boys love terms

Then again, terms change and muddy all the time, not even counting when another country steals it. No one remembers that a drabble is supposedly exactly 100 words etc etc...

Re: being anal

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I feel so doubly chagrined to have been apparently quite unclear as to what bothered me in the first place-- which seems to be my bane in life, or thereabouts. I don't really care for the terminology, anyway, and never claimed I disagreed that the particular manga, Ring Finer, wasn't yaoi. That seems a totally secondary & unimportant point. The thing that annoyed me was the claim there was a qualitative difference that it had from yaoi -aside- from the lack of sex-scenes, ie, character development & stuff about 'feeelings'. There's tons and tons of hardcore yaoi about feeeelings. Tons. And tons. And admittedly I've read way too much of it and there hasn't been this much variety until about 5 years ago or so, probably, but. -.-;;

Anyway, er, there's no way I'd be that bothered by terminology in itself. I'm not -that- anal, ahahah ^^;;;