the character-stasis issue, symbiotic fanon, Iwaki's dilemma, etc

[reenka]

I was just thinking-- reading a summary of the latest chapter of Youka Nitta's married-couple series ('Haru wo Daiteita') where Iwaki and Katou are always ruminating on what it means to be an actor & how that applies to their relationship-- when Iwaki thought about how 'pointless' (if tempting) it is to compare oneself to others [as an actor] & that he understood this when he 'won against' himself. I think, y'know, this really applies to how I feel about writing, too.

Usually my sense of satisfaction in writing comes from the feeling that I've addressed something I thought was fascinating within my thoughts (about canon, characters, etc) or intense within my feelings (this could have any source & use fanfic as an outlet, so that 'H/D' is really 'The Default Couple' I play with). This is my default, but that's because I'm a hermit-- I think it's really almost impossible to escape when part of a community.
    I mean, yes, I felt purged when various conversations & ideas I've had about H/D came together & I wrote that Sectumsempra fic (even though I really couldn't stand the idea of most HBP AUs). It's such a release when things finally percolate and combust forcefully inside your mind to produce a fic out of nowhere, with the right push at the right time. My sense of pleasure is purely personal, feeling I've painted one more corner of my inner H/D cosmos, unrelated to the fact that objectively I think the fic is sloppy, somewhat emotionally overwrought & incomplete :P

    Anyway, I was just skimming a few of the holiday-comm H/D fics & recent stuff on hd_prophet, and it was pretty depressing to realize all over again just how out of sync I am with fandom (prompting a sense of guilt for writing 'just for myself' 'cause this means I don't communicate the differences/ideas I find important & try to get them out there too).
    
I don't mean the fics are bad-- I mean people's views, the writers' and the commenters', are just so... completely out of touch with everything I'd ever gotten either from H/D or canon (...to the point where I wonder if we've read the same books that have that same Harry Potter in them). Readers acclaim things as 'in character' and 'refreshing' when they're just-- well, pure recycled fanon, and yet I can't help but feel bad because this is what's popular, and I miss the feeling of being 'in the loop' (not that I ever was, really, and not that H/D was 'better-written' or less fanony before-- just differently fanony). I could understand the meta-concepts behind this-- about wish-fulfillment, people projecting onto characters, people just not 'getting' a character in canon or not caring or not having the same priorities in fanfic-- I understand all this, but on a more personal level, I just don't -get- how people can be that off and still supposedly refer to the same characters within the same pairing. Like, yeah, you expect all these differences in perception if you're putting H/D & H/Hr shippers together (though ideally, you should still be able to meet in the middle! canon, y'know), but... sometimes it feels like there's no common point of reference at -all-, and that's just mind-boggling to me.

I think some people would say 'oooh, it's refreshingly different' whereas I would say 'but if it's that different, HOW DOES IT MAKE SENSE AS FANFIC???' -.- It gets to the point where people's Harry and Draco characterizations seem to share NO common reference with anything I find familiar, and yet! And yet other people think it's right on. I mean, I'm not talking about ff.net-style 'badfic' that everyone laughs at; I'm talking about decently-written stuff that seems to have some level of sophistication, which makes it all the worse when one realizes how it's basically 100%-grade CRACK not in terms of its plotline/style but rather characterization. People definitely notice when something's 'cute crack' 'cause it has obvious markers like Veela!Draco or porn-star!Harry or whatever, but there's definitely a fandom blind-spot when it comes to fanon characterizations that stop short of the flamboyantly ridiculous.
    On that note, it's almost like people accept 'normalized' characterizations as 'IC' whether or not they fit those characters; if it's a type of person the reader knows, it's somehow 'realistic', it seems like. This must explain the popularity of Muggle AUs, H/D fics that involve basically no magic or that have them be glorified cops (except without much mystery-solving) or prototypical office-workers and so on. We can accept businessman!Draco whether or not this is likely for Draco simply because businessmen are so ubiquitous, right? And yes, JKR's universe isn't all that exotic or different from Muggle England (that's the point, sort of), but at the same time these characters have a history that a personality that severely distorts/colors any future 'normality'.

    I mean, if it's not rainbow-colored Barbies and Kens, it's not crack, right? It's just 'refreshingly different'. Maybe I'd just leave it alone and accept it as 'charming' or whatever if it didn't have the implicit and often explicit endorsement of 'IC'; this, for me, transcends individual fic entirely and gets into meta/fanon issues. In other fandoms, you get 'woobification' and weird role-reversals too, but there's more of a balancing fanon or something-- for all the fics where I've seen love-me!Methos and purely-arrogant-and-distant!Methos, there's still lots where he's a complex and compelling character :/ Draco, on the other hand, works like this: either it's all ice-princey and oh-so-'sensual' and dominant and 'smooth-rich-boy' or it's like 'hi, I'm Harry Potter's love bunny, how do you do?' (...and of course I don't even know where to start with Harry, except to shudder at the persistent idea he 'admires' Draco's Slytherin sexy-coolness in canon).

...Though what really confuses/freaks me out is that the same people who love that portrayal also seem to enjoy fics that completely contradict it, few as they may be-- and then enthusiastically call them both IC. I think that's where people's complaints about the lameness of the label/concept itself come from; I mean, the way people throw that phrase around, I wonder what exactly it means to them. This lack of consistency/any one philosophy is probably my biggest source of asynchronicity, actually; the other is just that a lot of people who -do- have a consistent pov on the characters in their written or favorite fics just... don't really seem check canon, as such. It's like they read it and went 'oh okay, that's what -that- means' in book 3 and happily didn't think of it again. Which... okay, but still confusing -.-; Obviously, most writers tend not to politely inform you that they stopped paying attention around book 5 or 6 'cause, y'know, they didn't like them (as many people didn't). I've actually seen a lot of people verbalize this (outside references to fics)-- the whole thing of 'this isn't MY canon'. So perhaps a lot of people do this unconsciously, too (though for me the whole idea of rejecting canon I don't like is just ridiculous-- whether or not I like it, it EXISTS and anything else is possible but AU, characterization or plot-wise). In fact, the reason I could write my HBP AU was probably -because- I made it so explicit in my mind that THIS IS AU and in no way directly reflects on what I thought went on in HBP -.-;;
    Come to think of it, it'd be interesting to study/figure out if this weird character-stasis is a result of this being a book fandom; it seems less prevalent in TV fandoms where character-arcs move lots faster and change is often the name of the game from ep to ep (especially in badly-written shows).

This stuff remains hard for me to process after all this time of struggling with it, even taking subjectivity/interpretation and stuff into account. Just sort of... mental dissonance, y'know. Like, I don't care that people like these fics or write these fics-- I just wish I had a sense they -knew- it was crack. Perhaps this phenomenon is related to anything that's popular with lots of people on an emotional level-- it becomes 'normal' or 'right' just by mass consensus or something. That's pretty scary to me -.- Generally, I try not to fall into the trap of thinking I'm somehow 'better' or more aware of reality or whatever, 'cause thusly are fanatics generally born. >.>

Even when people agree with me on this sort of subject, it's useless 'cause more than half the time they'll like a fic I consider cracked out without seeing it that way. What I mean is, [nearly] everyone's probably guilty of this 'selective blindness'; I'm not claiming I'm not, just that it's harder to see in myself. The more important point isn't to agree 'oh yeah, most fics suck' or 'those fics suck' but rather to admit to one's own bias and try to understand/verbalize one's opinions clearly, so these boundaries between 'my inner canon', 'fanon I like' and 'what I believe is canon' become more visible and capable of being discussed. Maybe.

I used to think fanfic was special compared to 'regular' writing (with its emphasis on solitary work/'unspoiled creativity') because it was more communally creative-- something I could share with others. It seems like comparisons don't have to be self-defeating or creatively draining-- you know, like that cliche about not reading others' work while one writes so as not to get 'tainted'. I remember that feeling of synergy-- where there was a feeling of zeitgeist in fandom, of excitement, and one well-known H/D fanfic was almost inevitably a commentary/meta-continuation of another well-known H/D fanfic. In fact, that's how fanon itself evolves, right? And at its most positive, fanon is just communal creativity... a sort of meta-story that collectively can enrich and adorn one's experience of canon. A supplement. The problem is that so much of it turns wild and goes to weed-- becomes a sort of parasitic rather than a symbiotic relationship with the canon it springs from.

In any case, I think an actor, also, much moreso than a writer, doesn't exist in a vacuum-- and that's a great thing; no man is an island, all that. The trick is really a question of balancing one's personal vision and trying to draw from the inspiration and energy others' creative forces allow for. It's like... two separate but connected things-- being great as a player of one's own instrument and being great as part of a band, or even a whole orchestra. That's exciting; even if the field has narrowed down to a few friends I 'grok' the writing of & vice versa for me, I don't know if I'd really keep going without that measure of support/back-and-forth. A small band that jams together at times is already better than always playing in one's own room to one's cat & houseplants.

I mean, by nature I'm a soloist (and that is largely the nature of writing itself), and I get all tetchy when I listen to others' 'music' that's discordant if it's playing something like the same melody... but oh, that ever-elusive promise of harmony; every instrument having its own part and the overall gestalt being a force in itself. Well, I don't think writing can achieve that the way music, theatre or even visual art could, but I'm just saying that even so, maybe there's something about being an artist that includes that longing for harmony. Not sharing all your notes but rather finding a counter-melody, a balance in other instruments.

On a meta-level, this happens whether or not the writer is aware or supported by it-- simply because of the way stories can't help but touch upon the same themes/ideas/etc-- but it's hard letting go of fandom as a more direct source of inspiration, even now....
    More specifically, my last fic was definitely 'fanony' in the sense that it can't help but be a commentary not just on canon, but on various experiences I've had reading similar fics (H/D HBP AUs). It's almost a mini-sub-genre that I feel I've 'tackled', so in a way it's ridiculous to say I 'wrote it for myself', and I'd never try to claim there was any vacuum whatsoever. So that synergy did occur! I mean, not, perhaps, with the recent crop of fics I'd skimmed, but over a longer stretch of time that includes several meta conversations, a bunch of fics and my evolving relationship with H/D that transcends the canon/fanon divide. I mean, just because I feel a continuity within my own fics doesn't mean I imagine I need to feel it within fics that address totally different sorts of issues & are in different genres altogether, that aren't even mine; it's just that I feel there should be -something-. Something 'just because it's H/D', just because it's the same characters. I dunno, I'm not saying it's a practical/reasonable feeling, I'm just still referring back to Iwaki's thing about winning against yourself and how that's never so simple in practice, it seems like.

Comments

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Obi-Wan, hee! Although all I really know about Obi-Wan Kenobi is that I wouldn't kick Ewan McGregor out of bed, or Alec Guinness from back-in-the-day, for that matter. :) But I suspect I am less fandom's Obi-Wan than fandom's Guy on the Bus Who You Don't Make Eye Contact With Because He'll Start Talking To You About The Aliens, and That You Occasionally See Talking To Himself in the Park. (see icon) Babe, you got five dollars so I can get me some lunch? Besides, I look more like Yoda.

Interesting about people who've moved on. Some people have said to me that they've basically just gotten what they needed from fandom, so they're done with it -- they've turned some fandom friends into good RL friends and they hang out with them and do other things now. Which is one way of doing fandom right, I guess: using it as an episode. There's probably a split between people who have moved on specifically to other fandoms, and those who either stayed with their first love or left entirely, based on how strong that first connection was. If you're into the purely fandomy things about fandom, then it seems natural to try other fandoms when you get tired of the first one. But if you're all about that first obsessive connection, then it's all or nothing, stay where you are and dig deeper or get out entirely.

I can see the point you make about whether even to call it "fandom." I use the word because I don't know what else to call it -- but it's just a general term for me for anything to do with LJ, which is pretty much about connections I've made with people originally over HP, whatever they're about now. And I keep it compartmentalized from RL, because that's just how I am, so it seems like a "thing" that needs a name. But yeah, it seems less urgent to "define" or "shape" this thing called fandom, seems less important to be part of a movement or community that was going to "legitimize slash" or "interpret JKR" or "create the definitive Harry/Draco" or whatever. Which may just be a part of the general disperson of fandom, the erosion of a previously tighter sense of community and mission. Or maybe we just ran out of weed. I mean, I'm still receptive to that stuff if someone seems about to tackle it in a formidable way, but I'm less interested in whether any particular random fic or meta musing is going to be a building block in the big edifice, less interested and excited in any particular piece.

I know what you mean about those WTF moments in reading new fic. There really isn't anybody whose taste I completely rely on a surrogate for my own, although furiosity is better than most when she reviews H/D. And there's so much H/D that I'm unsympathetic to for one reason or another that every time I've tried to catch up on newer stuff by going through a big rec list my attention starts to wander. It's like: OK, what problem posed by the relationship is this author trying to examine? And you sort of imagine the author saying, "problem?"

The last new person whose H/D made my skull rattle on its hinges was probably lydiabennet, almost a year ago now, and she only did three stunning shorts (not all H/D) and one longer one-shot before leaving H/D. kabeyk has it going, too -- she's got the physicality and the implicit violence and the boyishness, but I don't think H/D is her main thing. I like Mira's SoHW a lot but not for any reason I normally like H/D, so it doesn't count here. And Maya of course is in her own class, keeps it going, keeps it new, does it better than anyone. But I'm talking about newer people. I'd love to add to this list and I know it's really unreasonably short, but I'm not sure where to look.

On Draco I think I'm still a redemptionista (redemptionisto?) but in a different sense -- I'm less concerned about his alleged "evil," but more interested in his fucked-up-ness, and what kind of story you could tell that gets him to health. My own buttons are showing there, I guess! I just had a blast of a discussion with Maya and Sister M on Maya's latest post, about whether Draco needed a good!daddy to set him straight, whether he was too messed up to get it together on his own. So maybe there's life in the meta for me, yet! :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think of Obi-Wan as a lot more optimistic and idealistic than Yoda, though :P He's both kick-ass as a Jedi and passionate without being out of control like Anakin or totally cerebral like Yoda. Hehe yeah I've read too many Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fics, that much is obvious....

It's sort of embarrassing to realize that I could never really 'grow beyond' fandom or get enough from it, 'cause what I liked the most was the whole writers' community thing. Even if I hang out with my friends, it's not the same as reading their fic and them reading mine, but then I'm somewhat obsessively 'writing/reading first! rl second!' y'know :> And I've met several people within the last 2 years or so, but yeah, none of them last-- probably the healthy way to be. Me, it's like, even though I'm not writing as much, I always feel I -should- be 'cause my self-image is so tied up with writing... and because original fic/publishing doesn't have that immediate pay-off. Maybe if there was a community for that it'd be different.

Heheh I'm so with you on the 'problem' thing :D I think when I go off about OOCness, people really generally don't get that I'm not looking for "serious canon studies" or even "serious character studies" but rather "serious relationship studies". There are people who're as serious about Draco characterization, but veeeery few take the relationship as an entity seriously in a canon-related way... maybe 'cause so much of it's a fanon construct to start with. But I want it to make sense and -mean- something, dammit. Mer.

Omg, not the daddy thing, nooooooo :(( I had the longest time where I couldn't write Draco 'cause I was so influenced by that sort of um, father-centric(??) Draco by RPing with him that I thought I had nothing to say that wasn't in that mode. I think it's like, not that I agree or disagree but that the question, the way it's posed, freaks me out a bit 'cause I can't really see Draco as someone to take care of. I can be sympathetic (naturally) but the minute I woobify/feel sorry for him I start feeling guilty about putting him with Harry to the point where I can't write H/D. The thing about Maya and malafede & Sister M (not that she writes) is that they all want this care on Harry's part and while Maya is really good at writing it in a way I like (...though I'll always like her scary!Harry darkfics most), the whole meta set-up sort of...makes my mojo limp :)) I CAN'T PUT IT ANY OTHER WAY OKAY :>

As long as there -is- that emotional/physical violence, that contested power-balance stuff and misunderstanding and unhealthy-but-intense connection between them, I'll keep on being interested... (just like you, in the fucked-upness, hehe) but it's like the hurt/comfort stuff just makes me face the fact I -can't- fix it because it's not just Draco, it's -Harry-. I think Draco needs help (who wouldn't in his situation?), but I can only hope it's not hand-holding or 'caring protector' type help. I mean, both Harry & Draco are (differently) fucked up, and that's why I like 'em, but two fucked up people can't 'fix' each other, y'know? I never meant them to; I always meant 'redemptionista' as a way of saying I want Draco to -change- and grow up and become the person he could be. But no one 'makes' you that person-- it's just something you get help with from your friends and the people who matter to you, but it's not any one source you can depend on. Sister M always talks about the 'dark night of the soul', and I'm all over that! It's just that in most fic applications, this seems to make Harry 'the Bastard' or someone else (Lucius?) or Draco. I definitely have that problem with my Death Eater!Draco fic :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think there's something about fanfic and the predominant 'romantic' ouvre we're in as shippers that makes it difficult to write about individual struggles because there are all these preconceptions about Harry [& Draco] and baggage that fans get upset at, etc. Like, I guess what I'm saying is, it's useless to me if it's easy, if someone (Harry) provides him the opportunity and Draco just follows through. It may be fun to read if it's well-done, but it's not satisfying. And I often feel alone in this desire to further test poor ickle Draco. Ideally, though, I'd write a 'definitive' H/D fic where both Harry & Draco went through hell together and as individuals, and it took a long time for them to realize they work together and that they want each other (even if it's too late-- probably, but maybe not, 'cause I'd hate melodrama for its own sake), even if they were superficially 'together' early on. I really wanna see that, wanna write that, but I'm just... so scattered and lazy when it comes to big projects and basically it never gets done by anyone so I'm sort of like 'ahhh at least there are love-stories like that out there, even though it's not H/D'... :>

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I don't want either of them treated gently :> In that sense, my goal would be to transform/touch the reader even as the characters are transformed & their identities hammered into a more solid shape. Like, I don't think the messed-upness should be 'helped along' or 'fixed' so much as explored and resolved-- but this is less a fan's/character-lover's approach and more just what I like in stories.... Which is why I really enjoyed that fic pheasantplucker linked below but my issue of 'but where are their PROBLEMS and/or the ANGST' kind of interefered anyway :> And I'm totally with you on those two writers-- though kabeyk is just great in terms of violent/intense/boyish interactions with any pairing-- she writes angry!S/R! Ahh, she's brilliant... though lately she doesn't write much of anything ^^;

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I could never really 'grow beyond' fandom or get enough from it, 'cause what I liked the most was the whole writers' community thing.

I think I have a fairly focused interest in a similar way because I'm all about the meta -- even though I don't write fic, I love discussing it, figuring out how it works. Maybe, banging my analytical semi-Asperger's brain against people who get it more organically. :) So in a similar way, it was all about the community for me, too. I used to love having long back and forth discussions with EQ and Verdant on email, or with Magpie on the nraged community, or wherever I could get anyone to babble with me. And of course it helps to have a community that's into the meta in that way, as well as sharing a common interest in a specific class of fics. So yeah, when that changes, what's the next step? To an extent, it's either there or it's not, and maybe it's possible to do the "created community" thing and it may or may not take off. It's hard to do, like with trying to revive the Armchair for instance, because it's hard to really know what makes these configurations take on their own momentum in the first place.

You're right that with H/D ideally it's the relationship and not just the characters that's the focus of excitement -- or rather, you have to have the relationship as a synergy or a multiplication or something, not just a simple sum, of the two personalities. I think my earliest take on the HP world, even before I got into fandom, was that Harry just had to be way more fucked up than he seemed on the surface, he seemed like he might explode some day, and when I found H/D it was one of those things where you just see the potential of the two of them in a more intense and direct relationship, how they complement each other and strike sparks and change each other. Although my bias has always been for health -- I know you're more focused on the sparks themselves, on the impossibility of the relationship even in its obsessive attractiveness. Where I see them as incredibly good for each other in the medium run, if they can get past the initial emotional violence of it. (In the long run, I think they have nothing much to offer each other after they've both fully grown up, which is why post-Hogwarts fic rarely does it for me.) And you know, along the way, I can project all sorts of my own issues into the relationship, so that's fun, too. :)

I'm sorry you hate the daddy-thing!! And I have to admit I'm the one pushing it, and Maya and Magpie both think I'm on the good crack, but you know how I get when I have a new idea . . . Anyway it's on page 8 of Maya's latest post with her new WIP, though the discussion is pretty much winding down now. But I promise it's not about "feeling sorry" for Draco, or Harry in a dominant role. It's more about how he needs Snape to kick his ass, because he can't kick his own ass.

I agree with you about how a romance genre makes stories of personal transformation difficult. It's really hard to do that without attributing too much power to one personality. I admit I find the H/D relationship transformative, like I said above, but I think it's more passive learning and imitation of the other; I really do think that people learn by seeing new behaviors enacted by other personalities, so it's not necessarily Harry sitting Draco down and patiently explaining why DEs are bad, which would revolt me, too. And one reason I like the Harry/Draco/Snape trio in my imagination of Book 7 is that Snape may be able to do some of the heavy transformative lifting, even as he has to work on himself at the same time. Eh, this sounds kind of glib here but I'm going to beg off trying to make the full argument at the moment -- that's just sort of the direction I see it going.

And definitely, no one should be treated gently! Easy is boring. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I like that... "medium run health". I think most of the time I argue for sparks & obsession, etcetc because nearly everyone I ever talk to (that's a shipper) argues against it or for their positive potential and stuff. A lot of it's just what I think is missing in [more serious, longer] fic rather than my meta approach to H/D, y'know, 'cause in terms of what fics I enjoy, it's not like relentless angsty melodrama's fun to read (...or RP... heh). A lot of it's also 'what is healthy' vs. 'what works for these two characters'. Something that's not theoretically healthy (ie, codependent, obsessive, too needy or too back-and-forth/uneven or too distant) is 'just right' for the two people involved. I often have arguments about relationships I like 'as is' that more 'sensible' people see huge problems in and predict their doom. I'm like-- it's not that I like doom, it's more that I'm willing to face it head-on and yet want to fight against it. My least favorite thing is an unhealthy established-relationship story that's a rut, with the characters energyless and worn out, sort of like toys winding down-- like the stuff hackthis used to write. *shudder* My absolute favorite thing is a range between healthy-but-'alternative' like Harry & Draco's friendship in silviakundera's 'And I Get By', where they're close in spite of themselves & the sort of growing lifebond between them in PhoenixSong's 'Eclipse', where the fucked-upness results in an 'us against the world' bonding (I love all sorts of bond themes for H/D... can't help it...) The important thing is that nothing is swept under the carpet-- after that, all bets are off, either for health or doom :D DOOM! DOOM! *coughs*

I think I associate 'the daddy thing' with the idea that Draco would in some way see Harry as a 'replacement' of the energy he used to direct at Lucius, and of the idea that Harry should/would pamper Draco or take care of him/coddle him. Snape is probably sooort of a better role model/father figure than Lucius, but I don't have much faith in Snape's ability to help anyone-- though I'd rather it be Snape than Harry as long as it's not Snape/Draco :)) I'm definitely fascinated with the Snape+Draco+Harry dynamic post-HBP (and hell, the Harry/Snape dynamic... heh), just sort of uncomfortable on the slippery slope between the reality that Draco's always been more childish/immature than Harry (in some ways) and the fear that ass-kicking is coddling in disguise -.-;;; Talking about this with Draco-fans that I -know- want Draco taken care of doesn't help :)) Well, I know you don't :)

It would be so great if Snape transformed (???! INTO WHAT?) but talk about a hard nut to crack. :D I think it's likely to be passive/imitation in terms of their relationship-- I just meant I'm also interested in their separate journeys. I think Sister M said this at one point: that both of them have their own parallel Journey now, which I think is awesome! :D

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I think most of the time I argue for sparks & obsession, etcetc because nearly everyone I ever talk to (that's a shipper) argues against it or for their positive potential . . . . . . A lot of it's also 'what is healthy' vs. 'what works for these two characters'.

These two comments really zero in on the issue of wishful thinking in H/D fanon, and I agree with you empirically but I think I'm more divided on how I feel about it. The usual fanon pattern is, maybe: something about H and D catches a writer's eye and they start projecting other things onto them, maybe invoking other configurations they've seen in real life that might have one or two points in common with H and D, but not necessarily a whole lot of points. Then they put the couple through whatever paces satisfy them based on their outside interests. And as we both said above, they may not even engage the whole "problem" aspect of the relationship if that's not what grabs them, and even if they do, they may invent their own problems with just the slightest, polite nod to canon.

Is this a bad thing? To make a fic, even a derivative fic, mainly about your own issues? Isn't that what drives anyone to write? Like I said, I'm divided. It's like the whole Mary Sue question -- how is author insertion categorically a bad thing if even the best authors insist "there's a little bit of me in all my characters." I suspect that whether it works or is laughable depends on the degree of self-knowledge the writer brings to writing -- Mary-Sue's are ridiculous precisely when the author seems to think he or she is hiding the self-insertion, or seems to be unaware of doing it. And the same thing with noncanonical H/D -- does the author seem naive, crudely projecting? Do they seem like they're aware of what they're doing or is it "OMG H and D are just like me and this guy I had a crush on!" So it's a range.

I guess the only way to simplify the problem out of existence would be to say -- fanon H/D has to be rigorously, strictly grounded in canon. And then, um, where are you? Because we know how, canonically, they can't keep out of each other's pants . . . :)

So I guess I see canon-discipline as more of a useful procedural check on the more extravagant forms of self-insertion, or as an exercise in an author getting outside their own heads, rather than as a goal in itself. Noncanonical fic is boring if it's tennis-without-a-net (no, er, outside allusions intended, I swear!) But it's interesting if it's interesting, you know?

I'd rather it be Snape than Harry as long as it's not Snape/Draco . . . It would be so great if Snape transformed (???! INTO WHAT?) but talk about a hard nut to crack.

Ah, Severus . . . I admit I'm about daddy!Snape'd out at the moment. But these two comments are interesting taken together. I honestly can't recall ever having read any Snape/Draco *crosses self* but I've read a fair amount of Snape/Harry here and there and I agree it comes down precisely to the question of WHAT Snape transforms into. My usual pattern in reacting to a Snape/Harry fic is to love the way Snape is presented in the opening scenes (hooray for fry-cook!Snape) but to get increasingly alienated from the fic as Snape is schmoopily transformed into somebody's love-bunny, you know? The transformation itself seems precisely a betrayal of Snape's character, so the whole project seems to be wrong from the start. I think that's probably a close parallel the way you feel about "healthy" Harry/Draco, no?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think it's like... I wouldn't be so bitter/frustrated if there were different kinds of fics out there, some more canon and some level, instead of ALL being varying degrees of less & projection out the wazoo everywhere. Taking a little hop-skip-and-a-jump to friendship pairings like Harry/Ron or Sirius/Remus, there's still fanon, but people seem somehow more inclined to give a longer, more involved nod to the characters' interaction in canon, as if they're actually fun to play with (who'd've thunk it?) And in these cases of the writers riffing on the existing history/dynamic of the characters and inventing/projecting stuff on top of that, I'm happy to give much more leeway much more easily-- like, I love AUs, for instance, and I don't care who cross-dresses or whether Sirius & Remus have sekritly wanted each other since they were 12, no matter how unlikely in retrospect, because of the obvious amount of affection and -attention- the characters still get in terms of history. Even though there's less history with S/R, people go over and over The Reunion and The Betrayal and The Prank. Sure, most of the fic is OOC projection anyway, but there's still more of that sense of -interest- in the actual issues/dynamics even if the projection's still there. So fanfiction itself doesn't -have- to be like this, is what I mean.

I didn't mean to be just saying that it's 'all about canon' for me. Sure, if it's interesting, it's interesting, but maaaaan am I tired of certain things by now, too :D Like the Harry-admires-Draco's-Slytherin-coolness-and-mysterious-nature bit. I swear to god, it makes me gag, and not because it's 'not canon' but just because it's so... against the spirit of the pairing or something. There's such a thing as mojo, and there's also such a thing as murdering it painfully and slowly in its bed :D

So yeah, I feel like the 'obsession, lust 'n hatred' bit could use a bit more attention than it gets, not because of canon, even, but just 'cause it'd spice things up & make 'em more interesting. I also never really dig a writer on an aesthetic level if it's too easy to tell they're 'using' a character or obviously over-sympathetic to them-- Maya's an exception (and to some extent Cassie, similarly) 'cause she's just awesome and she makes her Draco worth the adoration he gets. Even then I like her darkfics more :> So in many ways if the writer's not aware they're writing fanon, I just write them off as being clearly not all that bright, but if they -are-, I'm just usually frustrated 'cause they don't care about these characters as much as I do :> I -have- seen people wave the fanon/porn/stop-telling-me-I'm-writing-OOC-bitch! flag and it's like "........yeah, when you stop telling me not to care or that ICness is an illusion, sure" :> And then there's the whole bit where otherwise good writers sincerely believe things about canon!Harry (aaaaand his relationship with Draco secondarily) that make me want to smack them :> Not saying it's Wrong with a capital W or anything, mind you, just annoying! :D

...many Draco fans like-- or at least don't dislike-- Snape/Draco, and since I know many Draco fans, the pressure is there.... *shudders*

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that you were a canon-obsessive! :) It's clear that you're diagnosing a tendency, and proposing another tendency to correct it. And you're right -- if you're not seizing on something significant about these character's relationship, rather than something trivial, it's hard to know why you're bothering with JKR's characters. I think I reviewed "Big Dick Come Quick" somewhere and said that it was kind of a fun story, but I wasn't sure why the protagonists had the same names as Harry Potter characters. That kind of disconnect is definitely annoying and unsatisfying, I agree!

To be honest, I just don't read enough stuff to even be able to generalize about what's going on now. I dip in and sample here and there and every so often I end up with a prize but mostly it's more peanuts, you know? I loves me my classics, and Maya and Mira and a few others whose shorts are always worth reading. (And I'm holding you to your promises on your DE fic.) And I keep hoping for some great discovery or some great new person. The neat thing about meta is you can do it even when the fics suck!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

And yeah, most H/S fic sucks donkey ass in terms of Snape characterization, hahaha. They love him too much :D
Hehe, I don't think H/D -has- to be unhealthy, but yeah, it bothers me in practice 'cause it's OOC the way people generally do it :> Just like Snape doesn't -have- to be impossible to transform/change, but it certainly wouldn't happen the way people do it :D My only entirely positive experience with a Snape/Harry fic is (dunno if you've read it, but it's classic) thisveryinstant's post-OoTP Truth (http://www.noiresensus.com/bookshelf/harrypotter/truth.html). I seriously have no words for how awesome and amazingly(!!) believable(!!!!) that fic is. I was like, gaping and going OMG SHE MADE ME BELIEVE IN HARRY/SNAPE HOLYFUCK HOLYFUCK! Without really changing Snape, however :D I think, really, it's somewhat scary to contemplate changing Snape too much, 'cause I personally like him -because- he is the way he is. I suppose in many ways that's how I feel about H/D also, though I do love their transformative potential-- they're teenage boys, not old grumpy professors, too. I just wish people didn't jump the gun so much to get to the 'good stuff'-- it may be satisfying to them to write, but notsomuch to the reader after the ten zillionth time, y'know :>

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec on "Truth." I had never read it, actually, and I liked a lot of it. It didn't break through my Snape/Harry barrier -- when Snape started to get aroused, I confess I was laughing, and not in a good way. (Like I was a few minutes later in that great scene where they talk about turning the lights off.) But I loved a lot of the ideas in it. Especially the way the truth-serum might break through Harry's own resistances and blind spots and clarify things for him. Or that Snape's fascination lies in imagining the ways, the strategies, he uses to control his inner roiling, and watching when they break down.

I just think his control is far less precarious than she portrays, and I guess the main reason I can't buy this particular breakdown is that I think the professor role is too important in Snape's emotional economy. It's the last thing he'll lose. It's hard to conceive of it slipping except as part of a more comprehensive collapse of his personality. And Snape is never pathetic that way. But it's cool. I definitely respect the fic and I'm glad I read it, which I can't honestly say for most H/S. But it's 60% plausible rather than the usual 30%, maybe.

Thanks also for reccing "And I Get By" the other day, which is 100%! I love that fic and hadn't read it in a long time but any time is a good time to reread it.