the character-stasis issue, symbiotic fanon, Iwaki's dilemma, etc

[reenka]

I was just thinking-- reading a summary of the latest chapter of Youka Nitta's married-couple series ('Haru wo Daiteita') where Iwaki and Katou are always ruminating on what it means to be an actor & how that applies to their relationship-- when Iwaki thought about how 'pointless' (if tempting) it is to compare oneself to others [as an actor] & that he understood this when he 'won against' himself. I think, y'know, this really applies to how I feel about writing, too.

Usually my sense of satisfaction in writing comes from the feeling that I've addressed something I thought was fascinating within my thoughts (about canon, characters, etc) or intense within my feelings (this could have any source & use fanfic as an outlet, so that 'H/D' is really 'The Default Couple' I play with). This is my default, but that's because I'm a hermit-- I think it's really almost impossible to escape when part of a community.
    I mean, yes, I felt purged when various conversations & ideas I've had about H/D came together & I wrote that Sectumsempra fic (even though I really couldn't stand the idea of most HBP AUs). It's such a release when things finally percolate and combust forcefully inside your mind to produce a fic out of nowhere, with the right push at the right time. My sense of pleasure is purely personal, feeling I've painted one more corner of my inner H/D cosmos, unrelated to the fact that objectively I think the fic is sloppy, somewhat emotionally overwrought & incomplete :P

    Anyway, I was just skimming a few of the holiday-comm H/D fics & recent stuff on hd_prophet, and it was pretty depressing to realize all over again just how out of sync I am with fandom (prompting a sense of guilt for writing 'just for myself' 'cause this means I don't communicate the differences/ideas I find important & try to get them out there too).
    
I don't mean the fics are bad-- I mean people's views, the writers' and the commenters', are just so... completely out of touch with everything I'd ever gotten either from H/D or canon (...to the point where I wonder if we've read the same books that have that same Harry Potter in them). Readers acclaim things as 'in character' and 'refreshing' when they're just-- well, pure recycled fanon, and yet I can't help but feel bad because this is what's popular, and I miss the feeling of being 'in the loop' (not that I ever was, really, and not that H/D was 'better-written' or less fanony before-- just differently fanony). I could understand the meta-concepts behind this-- about wish-fulfillment, people projecting onto characters, people just not 'getting' a character in canon or not caring or not having the same priorities in fanfic-- I understand all this, but on a more personal level, I just don't -get- how people can be that off and still supposedly refer to the same characters within the same pairing. Like, yeah, you expect all these differences in perception if you're putting H/D & H/Hr shippers together (though ideally, you should still be able to meet in the middle! canon, y'know), but... sometimes it feels like there's no common point of reference at -all-, and that's just mind-boggling to me.

I think some people would say 'oooh, it's refreshingly different' whereas I would say 'but if it's that different, HOW DOES IT MAKE SENSE AS FANFIC???' -.- It gets to the point where people's Harry and Draco characterizations seem to share NO common reference with anything I find familiar, and yet! And yet other people think it's right on. I mean, I'm not talking about ff.net-style 'badfic' that everyone laughs at; I'm talking about decently-written stuff that seems to have some level of sophistication, which makes it all the worse when one realizes how it's basically 100%-grade CRACK not in terms of its plotline/style but rather characterization. People definitely notice when something's 'cute crack' 'cause it has obvious markers like Veela!Draco or porn-star!Harry or whatever, but there's definitely a fandom blind-spot when it comes to fanon characterizations that stop short of the flamboyantly ridiculous.
    On that note, it's almost like people accept 'normalized' characterizations as 'IC' whether or not they fit those characters; if it's a type of person the reader knows, it's somehow 'realistic', it seems like. This must explain the popularity of Muggle AUs, H/D fics that involve basically no magic or that have them be glorified cops (except without much mystery-solving) or prototypical office-workers and so on. We can accept businessman!Draco whether or not this is likely for Draco simply because businessmen are so ubiquitous, right? And yes, JKR's universe isn't all that exotic or different from Muggle England (that's the point, sort of), but at the same time these characters have a history that a personality that severely distorts/colors any future 'normality'.

    I mean, if it's not rainbow-colored Barbies and Kens, it's not crack, right? It's just 'refreshingly different'. Maybe I'd just leave it alone and accept it as 'charming' or whatever if it didn't have the implicit and often explicit endorsement of 'IC'; this, for me, transcends individual fic entirely and gets into meta/fanon issues. In other fandoms, you get 'woobification' and weird role-reversals too, but there's more of a balancing fanon or something-- for all the fics where I've seen love-me!Methos and purely-arrogant-and-distant!Methos, there's still lots where he's a complex and compelling character :/ Draco, on the other hand, works like this: either it's all ice-princey and oh-so-'sensual' and dominant and 'smooth-rich-boy' or it's like 'hi, I'm Harry Potter's love bunny, how do you do?' (...and of course I don't even know where to start with Harry, except to shudder at the persistent idea he 'admires' Draco's Slytherin sexy-coolness in canon).

...Though what really confuses/freaks me out is that the same people who love that portrayal also seem to enjoy fics that completely contradict it, few as they may be-- and then enthusiastically call them both IC. I think that's where people's complaints about the lameness of the label/concept itself come from; I mean, the way people throw that phrase around, I wonder what exactly it means to them. This lack of consistency/any one philosophy is probably my biggest source of asynchronicity, actually; the other is just that a lot of people who -do- have a consistent pov on the characters in their written or favorite fics just... don't really seem check canon, as such. It's like they read it and went 'oh okay, that's what -that- means' in book 3 and happily didn't think of it again. Which... okay, but still confusing -.-; Obviously, most writers tend not to politely inform you that they stopped paying attention around book 5 or 6 'cause, y'know, they didn't like them (as many people didn't). I've actually seen a lot of people verbalize this (outside references to fics)-- the whole thing of 'this isn't MY canon'. So perhaps a lot of people do this unconsciously, too (though for me the whole idea of rejecting canon I don't like is just ridiculous-- whether or not I like it, it EXISTS and anything else is possible but AU, characterization or plot-wise). In fact, the reason I could write my HBP AU was probably -because- I made it so explicit in my mind that THIS IS AU and in no way directly reflects on what I thought went on in HBP -.-;;
    Come to think of it, it'd be interesting to study/figure out if this weird character-stasis is a result of this being a book fandom; it seems less prevalent in TV fandoms where character-arcs move lots faster and change is often the name of the game from ep to ep (especially in badly-written shows).

This stuff remains hard for me to process after all this time of struggling with it, even taking subjectivity/interpretation and stuff into account. Just sort of... mental dissonance, y'know. Like, I don't care that people like these fics or write these fics-- I just wish I had a sense they -knew- it was crack. Perhaps this phenomenon is related to anything that's popular with lots of people on an emotional level-- it becomes 'normal' or 'right' just by mass consensus or something. That's pretty scary to me -.- Generally, I try not to fall into the trap of thinking I'm somehow 'better' or more aware of reality or whatever, 'cause thusly are fanatics generally born. >.>

Even when people agree with me on this sort of subject, it's useless 'cause more than half the time they'll like a fic I consider cracked out without seeing it that way. What I mean is, [nearly] everyone's probably guilty of this 'selective blindness'; I'm not claiming I'm not, just that it's harder to see in myself. The more important point isn't to agree 'oh yeah, most fics suck' or 'those fics suck' but rather to admit to one's own bias and try to understand/verbalize one's opinions clearly, so these boundaries between 'my inner canon', 'fanon I like' and 'what I believe is canon' become more visible and capable of being discussed. Maybe.

I used to think fanfic was special compared to 'regular' writing (with its emphasis on solitary work/'unspoiled creativity') because it was more communally creative-- something I could share with others. It seems like comparisons don't have to be self-defeating or creatively draining-- you know, like that cliche about not reading others' work while one writes so as not to get 'tainted'. I remember that feeling of synergy-- where there was a feeling of zeitgeist in fandom, of excitement, and one well-known H/D fanfic was almost inevitably a commentary/meta-continuation of another well-known H/D fanfic. In fact, that's how fanon itself evolves, right? And at its most positive, fanon is just communal creativity... a sort of meta-story that collectively can enrich and adorn one's experience of canon. A supplement. The problem is that so much of it turns wild and goes to weed-- becomes a sort of parasitic rather than a symbiotic relationship with the canon it springs from.

In any case, I think an actor, also, much moreso than a writer, doesn't exist in a vacuum-- and that's a great thing; no man is an island, all that. The trick is really a question of balancing one's personal vision and trying to draw from the inspiration and energy others' creative forces allow for. It's like... two separate but connected things-- being great as a player of one's own instrument and being great as part of a band, or even a whole orchestra. That's exciting; even if the field has narrowed down to a few friends I 'grok' the writing of & vice versa for me, I don't know if I'd really keep going without that measure of support/back-and-forth. A small band that jams together at times is already better than always playing in one's own room to one's cat & houseplants.

I mean, by nature I'm a soloist (and that is largely the nature of writing itself), and I get all tetchy when I listen to others' 'music' that's discordant if it's playing something like the same melody... but oh, that ever-elusive promise of harmony; every instrument having its own part and the overall gestalt being a force in itself. Well, I don't think writing can achieve that the way music, theatre or even visual art could, but I'm just saying that even so, maybe there's something about being an artist that includes that longing for harmony. Not sharing all your notes but rather finding a counter-melody, a balance in other instruments.

On a meta-level, this happens whether or not the writer is aware or supported by it-- simply because of the way stories can't help but touch upon the same themes/ideas/etc-- but it's hard letting go of fandom as a more direct source of inspiration, even now....
    More specifically, my last fic was definitely 'fanony' in the sense that it can't help but be a commentary not just on canon, but on various experiences I've had reading similar fics (H/D HBP AUs). It's almost a mini-sub-genre that I feel I've 'tackled', so in a way it's ridiculous to say I 'wrote it for myself', and I'd never try to claim there was any vacuum whatsoever. So that synergy did occur! I mean, not, perhaps, with the recent crop of fics I'd skimmed, but over a longer stretch of time that includes several meta conversations, a bunch of fics and my evolving relationship with H/D that transcends the canon/fanon divide. I mean, just because I feel a continuity within my own fics doesn't mean I imagine I need to feel it within fics that address totally different sorts of issues & are in different genres altogether, that aren't even mine; it's just that I feel there should be -something-. Something 'just because it's H/D', just because it's the same characters. I dunno, I'm not saying it's a practical/reasonable feeling, I'm just still referring back to Iwaki's thing about winning against yourself and how that's never so simple in practice, it seems like.

Comments

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

it was pretty depressing to realize all over again just how out of sync I am with fandom (prompting a sense of guilt for writing 'just for myself' 'cause this means I don't communicate the differences/ideas I find important & try to get them out there too).

I've been thinking about this a lot, too -- going through one of my periodic bouts of fandom malaise. And the best I can come up with is, that it's not so much that fandom has "declined" since the "golden age," it's just that the particular configuration of things that struck a nerve with me when I first got into fandom has inevitably changed into a different configuration of things. I don't think any of us get into "fandom" per se -- I don't know how it started for you, but for me it was an accidental encounter with a community of fics and fic writers that happened to strongly push my buttons. It's a specific moment that works perfectly for you that sparks the fandom love; it gives you something you didn't have before but needed -- that's why you start to bother with it. And because nothing remains the same, things will ever after seem like a drift away from, a decline from that perfect high point when you first encountered it and it worked just right for you.

For me it was 2002-2003, with so many really smart writers simultaneously excited about H/D slash when it was relatively new and everything seemed original -- or at least, even the emerging cliches could be talked about as "tropes" or "stations of the cross" and seen as foci of conversation and competition. And of course there were great communal institutions to amplify this excitement -- the Armchair, the DV cheering section, the high level of discussion on FictionAlley's G&H threads.

For all I can tell, and to be honest I really don't know, the "excitement" of H/D for new people today may be the excitement of living in an established city rather than a pioneer village, where everything is available for consumption and you can bond with fun people over exploring the nooks and crannies or admiring all the glittery stuff in the shop windows. And you can sort of make your own fandom in your own little neighborhood -- there's no real center, just a lot of options to play with, and ultimately you end up cocooning with your own circle. And none of it seems urgent (which is of course where the personal spark of connection comes in), it's all just a fun show.

And that's cool, but it's not what brought me to fandom, and I don't care about it. I loved the talk and the established community of talk and the way the topics seemed to get under your skin -- the meta about sexuality and identity and love and transformation. And you know, it's not that it was more sophisticated back then -- that's the newbie's eternal illusion. I recently went back and tried to reread some of the fics that I loved and some of them stood up but a lot of them seemed hopelessly naive. (Nope, not naming names! :)) And re-read some of the meta and it's not really at any higher level, it's just different. But the specific things that were important for fandom were important for me. By definition, or I would never have gotten into it.

So what's an oldbie to do? I think you're right that there's no alternative but to see whether you can find and hold on to a smallish community of sympathetic people. People who like the same things as your houseplants and your cat. To turn a found community into a constructed community, and forget the rest, let it be a churning point of origin for other people's adventures.

It doesn't mean turning your back on newness, because there are always going to be new people who vibrate to the old chords and turn into new friends, and there are always going to be occasional new things that catch your eye that strike sparks as intense as the old excitements. But that happens if it happens, it shouldn't be a normative matter to follow fandom when it wanders away from you, just because it's fandom.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, you are wise, Obi-Wan (...you do realize you're the fandom Obi-Wan, right? just checking :D hee). I too got into fandom 'cause the meta/zeitgeist clicked for me at that place & time & with those people. There was that sense of edginess and exploration, yes, that made the lameness okay somehow, I dunno :D It's funny, though, 'cause most people -have- moved on to other fandoms, though not the hardcore people I really bonded heaviest with the writing of (odd, right?) Amalin, Ivy, Cassie, Ishuca, Aspen, Sister M, Trin and Penelope and Slytherlynx-- none of them changed fandoms. Of all my friends, only Aja & Sara did, ahaha. Weird, 'cause I think most other people I knew more distantly did in fact change fandoms and stuff, but maybe H/D wasn't such a big deal or whatever. It's not that hard to get into HP since it's pretty much everywhere, and if you're into slash, H/D and H/S were basically the options 'cause S/R is for wussies, y'know :))

The silly part of this is that I've 'given up' on fandom long ago-- it's not like I actively yearn to be a part of it-- so it's a bit disingenuous of me even to talk about this :> Sometimes I just feel nostalgic for that larger sense of connection, especially when I think of just focusing on 'myself' & 'self-improvement' like Iwaki said (that just seems lonely now). But it's probably more healthy/right to see it as a 'constructed community' rather than going from 'fandom' to nothing. Which isn't true anyway since even with my thin trickle of contact, I still write things in response to -my- fandom, such as it is :>

It was just -really- weird to have the contrast of my own fic & other people's fic, seriously. And also scary, just wondering what crack people are on, but perhaps it's just a different variety of the crack they were always on, hahaha. I was definitely on crack when I first got into fandom (didn't even read the books for year and such); I was high on the ideas! And it's like, I've read in a number of other fandoms but never joined them like HP 'cause they didn't have that 'transformative love' meta!zeitgeist... I mean, at this point I wouldn't join HP either. I mean, I'm on metafandom, and it's not like any other fandom calls out to me in the meta sense... there -was- something unique about H/D in '02-'03. Perhaps it was a unique quantity of mind-bond/Quidditch-sex crack :D

Man, I remember being a redemptionista-- I think that if I told people that today, they'd just blink at me :)) Before, they'd at least argue that 'DRACO DOESN'T NEED NO STINKIN' REDEMPTION!!1 :O!' Now they just write fics where he's guilt-free Glorious #1 :D Hahah man, I should make a Dracovid with that song (http://download.yousendit.com/B725D238763D0D99)-- it suddenly struck me how it fits him :D

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Obi-Wan, hee! Although all I really know about Obi-Wan Kenobi is that I wouldn't kick Ewan McGregor out of bed, or Alec Guinness from back-in-the-day, for that matter. :) But I suspect I am less fandom's Obi-Wan than fandom's Guy on the Bus Who You Don't Make Eye Contact With Because He'll Start Talking To You About The Aliens, and That You Occasionally See Talking To Himself in the Park. (see icon) Babe, you got five dollars so I can get me some lunch? Besides, I look more like Yoda.

Interesting about people who've moved on. Some people have said to me that they've basically just gotten what they needed from fandom, so they're done with it -- they've turned some fandom friends into good RL friends and they hang out with them and do other things now. Which is one way of doing fandom right, I guess: using it as an episode. There's probably a split between people who have moved on specifically to other fandoms, and those who either stayed with their first love or left entirely, based on how strong that first connection was. If you're into the purely fandomy things about fandom, then it seems natural to try other fandoms when you get tired of the first one. But if you're all about that first obsessive connection, then it's all or nothing, stay where you are and dig deeper or get out entirely.

I can see the point you make about whether even to call it "fandom." I use the word because I don't know what else to call it -- but it's just a general term for me for anything to do with LJ, which is pretty much about connections I've made with people originally over HP, whatever they're about now. And I keep it compartmentalized from RL, because that's just how I am, so it seems like a "thing" that needs a name. But yeah, it seems less urgent to "define" or "shape" this thing called fandom, seems less important to be part of a movement or community that was going to "legitimize slash" or "interpret JKR" or "create the definitive Harry/Draco" or whatever. Which may just be a part of the general disperson of fandom, the erosion of a previously tighter sense of community and mission. Or maybe we just ran out of weed. I mean, I'm still receptive to that stuff if someone seems about to tackle it in a formidable way, but I'm less interested in whether any particular random fic or meta musing is going to be a building block in the big edifice, less interested and excited in any particular piece.

I know what you mean about those WTF moments in reading new fic. There really isn't anybody whose taste I completely rely on a surrogate for my own, although furiosity is better than most when she reviews H/D. And there's so much H/D that I'm unsympathetic to for one reason or another that every time I've tried to catch up on newer stuff by going through a big rec list my attention starts to wander. It's like: OK, what problem posed by the relationship is this author trying to examine? And you sort of imagine the author saying, "problem?"

The last new person whose H/D made my skull rattle on its hinges was probably lydiabennet, almost a year ago now, and she only did three stunning shorts (not all H/D) and one longer one-shot before leaving H/D. kabeyk has it going, too -- she's got the physicality and the implicit violence and the boyishness, but I don't think H/D is her main thing. I like Mira's SoHW a lot but not for any reason I normally like H/D, so it doesn't count here. And Maya of course is in her own class, keeps it going, keeps it new, does it better than anyone. But I'm talking about newer people. I'd love to add to this list and I know it's really unreasonably short, but I'm not sure where to look.

On Draco I think I'm still a redemptionista (redemptionisto?) but in a different sense -- I'm less concerned about his alleged "evil," but more interested in his fucked-up-ness, and what kind of story you could tell that gets him to health. My own buttons are showing there, I guess! I just had a blast of a discussion with Maya and Sister M on Maya's latest post, about whether Draco needed a good!daddy to set him straight, whether he was too messed up to get it together on his own. So maybe there's life in the meta for me, yet! :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think of Obi-Wan as a lot more optimistic and idealistic than Yoda, though :P He's both kick-ass as a Jedi and passionate without being out of control like Anakin or totally cerebral like Yoda. Hehe yeah I've read too many Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fics, that much is obvious....

It's sort of embarrassing to realize that I could never really 'grow beyond' fandom or get enough from it, 'cause what I liked the most was the whole writers' community thing. Even if I hang out with my friends, it's not the same as reading their fic and them reading mine, but then I'm somewhat obsessively 'writing/reading first! rl second!' y'know :> And I've met several people within the last 2 years or so, but yeah, none of them last-- probably the healthy way to be. Me, it's like, even though I'm not writing as much, I always feel I -should- be 'cause my self-image is so tied up with writing... and because original fic/publishing doesn't have that immediate pay-off. Maybe if there was a community for that it'd be different.

Heheh I'm so with you on the 'problem' thing :D I think when I go off about OOCness, people really generally don't get that I'm not looking for "serious canon studies" or even "serious character studies" but rather "serious relationship studies". There are people who're as serious about Draco characterization, but veeeery few take the relationship as an entity seriously in a canon-related way... maybe 'cause so much of it's a fanon construct to start with. But I want it to make sense and -mean- something, dammit. Mer.

Omg, not the daddy thing, nooooooo :(( I had the longest time where I couldn't write Draco 'cause I was so influenced by that sort of um, father-centric(??) Draco by RPing with him that I thought I had nothing to say that wasn't in that mode. I think it's like, not that I agree or disagree but that the question, the way it's posed, freaks me out a bit 'cause I can't really see Draco as someone to take care of. I can be sympathetic (naturally) but the minute I woobify/feel sorry for him I start feeling guilty about putting him with Harry to the point where I can't write H/D. The thing about Maya and malafede & Sister M (not that she writes) is that they all want this care on Harry's part and while Maya is really good at writing it in a way I like (...though I'll always like her scary!Harry darkfics most), the whole meta set-up sort of...makes my mojo limp :)) I CAN'T PUT IT ANY OTHER WAY OKAY :>

As long as there -is- that emotional/physical violence, that contested power-balance stuff and misunderstanding and unhealthy-but-intense connection between them, I'll keep on being interested... (just like you, in the fucked-upness, hehe) but it's like the hurt/comfort stuff just makes me face the fact I -can't- fix it because it's not just Draco, it's -Harry-. I think Draco needs help (who wouldn't in his situation?), but I can only hope it's not hand-holding or 'caring protector' type help. I mean, both Harry & Draco are (differently) fucked up, and that's why I like 'em, but two fucked up people can't 'fix' each other, y'know? I never meant them to; I always meant 'redemptionista' as a way of saying I want Draco to -change- and grow up and become the person he could be. But no one 'makes' you that person-- it's just something you get help with from your friends and the people who matter to you, but it's not any one source you can depend on. Sister M always talks about the 'dark night of the soul', and I'm all over that! It's just that in most fic applications, this seems to make Harry 'the Bastard' or someone else (Lucius?) or Draco. I definitely have that problem with my Death Eater!Draco fic :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think there's something about fanfic and the predominant 'romantic' ouvre we're in as shippers that makes it difficult to write about individual struggles because there are all these preconceptions about Harry [& Draco] and baggage that fans get upset at, etc. Like, I guess what I'm saying is, it's useless to me if it's easy, if someone (Harry) provides him the opportunity and Draco just follows through. It may be fun to read if it's well-done, but it's not satisfying. And I often feel alone in this desire to further test poor ickle Draco. Ideally, though, I'd write a 'definitive' H/D fic where both Harry & Draco went through hell together and as individuals, and it took a long time for them to realize they work together and that they want each other (even if it's too late-- probably, but maybe not, 'cause I'd hate melodrama for its own sake), even if they were superficially 'together' early on. I really wanna see that, wanna write that, but I'm just... so scattered and lazy when it comes to big projects and basically it never gets done by anyone so I'm sort of like 'ahhh at least there are love-stories like that out there, even though it's not H/D'... :>

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I don't want either of them treated gently :> In that sense, my goal would be to transform/touch the reader even as the characters are transformed & their identities hammered into a more solid shape. Like, I don't think the messed-upness should be 'helped along' or 'fixed' so much as explored and resolved-- but this is less a fan's/character-lover's approach and more just what I like in stories.... Which is why I really enjoyed that fic pheasantplucker linked below but my issue of 'but where are their PROBLEMS and/or the ANGST' kind of interefered anyway :> And I'm totally with you on those two writers-- though kabeyk is just great in terms of violent/intense/boyish interactions with any pairing-- she writes angry!S/R! Ahh, she's brilliant... though lately she doesn't write much of anything ^^;

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I could never really 'grow beyond' fandom or get enough from it, 'cause what I liked the most was the whole writers' community thing.

I think I have a fairly focused interest in a similar way because I'm all about the meta -- even though I don't write fic, I love discussing it, figuring out how it works. Maybe, banging my analytical semi-Asperger's brain against people who get it more organically. :) So in a similar way, it was all about the community for me, too. I used to love having long back and forth discussions with EQ and Verdant on email, or with Magpie on the nraged community, or wherever I could get anyone to babble with me. And of course it helps to have a community that's into the meta in that way, as well as sharing a common interest in a specific class of fics. So yeah, when that changes, what's the next step? To an extent, it's either there or it's not, and maybe it's possible to do the "created community" thing and it may or may not take off. It's hard to do, like with trying to revive the Armchair for instance, because it's hard to really know what makes these configurations take on their own momentum in the first place.

You're right that with H/D ideally it's the relationship and not just the characters that's the focus of excitement -- or rather, you have to have the relationship as a synergy or a multiplication or something, not just a simple sum, of the two personalities. I think my earliest take on the HP world, even before I got into fandom, was that Harry just had to be way more fucked up than he seemed on the surface, he seemed like he might explode some day, and when I found H/D it was one of those things where you just see the potential of the two of them in a more intense and direct relationship, how they complement each other and strike sparks and change each other. Although my bias has always been for health -- I know you're more focused on the sparks themselves, on the impossibility of the relationship even in its obsessive attractiveness. Where I see them as incredibly good for each other in the medium run, if they can get past the initial emotional violence of it. (In the long run, I think they have nothing much to offer each other after they've both fully grown up, which is why post-Hogwarts fic rarely does it for me.) And you know, along the way, I can project all sorts of my own issues into the relationship, so that's fun, too. :)

I'm sorry you hate the daddy-thing!! And I have to admit I'm the one pushing it, and Maya and Magpie both think I'm on the good crack, but you know how I get when I have a new idea . . . Anyway it's on page 8 of Maya's latest post with her new WIP, though the discussion is pretty much winding down now. But I promise it's not about "feeling sorry" for Draco, or Harry in a dominant role. It's more about how he needs Snape to kick his ass, because he can't kick his own ass.

I agree with you about how a romance genre makes stories of personal transformation difficult. It's really hard to do that without attributing too much power to one personality. I admit I find the H/D relationship transformative, like I said above, but I think it's more passive learning and imitation of the other; I really do think that people learn by seeing new behaviors enacted by other personalities, so it's not necessarily Harry sitting Draco down and patiently explaining why DEs are bad, which would revolt me, too. And one reason I like the Harry/Draco/Snape trio in my imagination of Book 7 is that Snape may be able to do some of the heavy transformative lifting, even as he has to work on himself at the same time. Eh, this sounds kind of glib here but I'm going to beg off trying to make the full argument at the moment -- that's just sort of the direction I see it going.

And definitely, no one should be treated gently! Easy is boring. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I like that... "medium run health". I think most of the time I argue for sparks & obsession, etcetc because nearly everyone I ever talk to (that's a shipper) argues against it or for their positive potential and stuff. A lot of it's just what I think is missing in [more serious, longer] fic rather than my meta approach to H/D, y'know, 'cause in terms of what fics I enjoy, it's not like relentless angsty melodrama's fun to read (...or RP... heh). A lot of it's also 'what is healthy' vs. 'what works for these two characters'. Something that's not theoretically healthy (ie, codependent, obsessive, too needy or too back-and-forth/uneven or too distant) is 'just right' for the two people involved. I often have arguments about relationships I like 'as is' that more 'sensible' people see huge problems in and predict their doom. I'm like-- it's not that I like doom, it's more that I'm willing to face it head-on and yet want to fight against it. My least favorite thing is an unhealthy established-relationship story that's a rut, with the characters energyless and worn out, sort of like toys winding down-- like the stuff hackthis used to write. *shudder* My absolute favorite thing is a range between healthy-but-'alternative' like Harry & Draco's friendship in silviakundera's 'And I Get By', where they're close in spite of themselves & the sort of growing lifebond between them in PhoenixSong's 'Eclipse', where the fucked-upness results in an 'us against the world' bonding (I love all sorts of bond themes for H/D... can't help it...) The important thing is that nothing is swept under the carpet-- after that, all bets are off, either for health or doom :D DOOM! DOOM! *coughs*

I think I associate 'the daddy thing' with the idea that Draco would in some way see Harry as a 'replacement' of the energy he used to direct at Lucius, and of the idea that Harry should/would pamper Draco or take care of him/coddle him. Snape is probably sooort of a better role model/father figure than Lucius, but I don't have much faith in Snape's ability to help anyone-- though I'd rather it be Snape than Harry as long as it's not Snape/Draco :)) I'm definitely fascinated with the Snape+Draco+Harry dynamic post-HBP (and hell, the Harry/Snape dynamic... heh), just sort of uncomfortable on the slippery slope between the reality that Draco's always been more childish/immature than Harry (in some ways) and the fear that ass-kicking is coddling in disguise -.-;;; Talking about this with Draco-fans that I -know- want Draco taken care of doesn't help :)) Well, I know you don't :)

It would be so great if Snape transformed (???! INTO WHAT?) but talk about a hard nut to crack. :D I think it's likely to be passive/imitation in terms of their relationship-- I just meant I'm also interested in their separate journeys. I think Sister M said this at one point: that both of them have their own parallel Journey now, which I think is awesome! :D

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I think most of the time I argue for sparks & obsession, etcetc because nearly everyone I ever talk to (that's a shipper) argues against it or for their positive potential . . . . . . A lot of it's also 'what is healthy' vs. 'what works for these two characters'.

These two comments really zero in on the issue of wishful thinking in H/D fanon, and I agree with you empirically but I think I'm more divided on how I feel about it. The usual fanon pattern is, maybe: something about H and D catches a writer's eye and they start projecting other things onto them, maybe invoking other configurations they've seen in real life that might have one or two points in common with H and D, but not necessarily a whole lot of points. Then they put the couple through whatever paces satisfy them based on their outside interests. And as we both said above, they may not even engage the whole "problem" aspect of the relationship if that's not what grabs them, and even if they do, they may invent their own problems with just the slightest, polite nod to canon.

Is this a bad thing? To make a fic, even a derivative fic, mainly about your own issues? Isn't that what drives anyone to write? Like I said, I'm divided. It's like the whole Mary Sue question -- how is author insertion categorically a bad thing if even the best authors insist "there's a little bit of me in all my characters." I suspect that whether it works or is laughable depends on the degree of self-knowledge the writer brings to writing -- Mary-Sue's are ridiculous precisely when the author seems to think he or she is hiding the self-insertion, or seems to be unaware of doing it. And the same thing with noncanonical H/D -- does the author seem naive, crudely projecting? Do they seem like they're aware of what they're doing or is it "OMG H and D are just like me and this guy I had a crush on!" So it's a range.

I guess the only way to simplify the problem out of existence would be to say -- fanon H/D has to be rigorously, strictly grounded in canon. And then, um, where are you? Because we know how, canonically, they can't keep out of each other's pants . . . :)

So I guess I see canon-discipline as more of a useful procedural check on the more extravagant forms of self-insertion, or as an exercise in an author getting outside their own heads, rather than as a goal in itself. Noncanonical fic is boring if it's tennis-without-a-net (no, er, outside allusions intended, I swear!) But it's interesting if it's interesting, you know?

I'd rather it be Snape than Harry as long as it's not Snape/Draco . . . It would be so great if Snape transformed (???! INTO WHAT?) but talk about a hard nut to crack.

Ah, Severus . . . I admit I'm about daddy!Snape'd out at the moment. But these two comments are interesting taken together. I honestly can't recall ever having read any Snape/Draco *crosses self* but I've read a fair amount of Snape/Harry here and there and I agree it comes down precisely to the question of WHAT Snape transforms into. My usual pattern in reacting to a Snape/Harry fic is to love the way Snape is presented in the opening scenes (hooray for fry-cook!Snape) but to get increasingly alienated from the fic as Snape is schmoopily transformed into somebody's love-bunny, you know? The transformation itself seems precisely a betrayal of Snape's character, so the whole project seems to be wrong from the start. I think that's probably a close parallel the way you feel about "healthy" Harry/Draco, no?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think it's like... I wouldn't be so bitter/frustrated if there were different kinds of fics out there, some more canon and some level, instead of ALL being varying degrees of less & projection out the wazoo everywhere. Taking a little hop-skip-and-a-jump to friendship pairings like Harry/Ron or Sirius/Remus, there's still fanon, but people seem somehow more inclined to give a longer, more involved nod to the characters' interaction in canon, as if they're actually fun to play with (who'd've thunk it?) And in these cases of the writers riffing on the existing history/dynamic of the characters and inventing/projecting stuff on top of that, I'm happy to give much more leeway much more easily-- like, I love AUs, for instance, and I don't care who cross-dresses or whether Sirius & Remus have sekritly wanted each other since they were 12, no matter how unlikely in retrospect, because of the obvious amount of affection and -attention- the characters still get in terms of history. Even though there's less history with S/R, people go over and over The Reunion and The Betrayal and The Prank. Sure, most of the fic is OOC projection anyway, but there's still more of that sense of -interest- in the actual issues/dynamics even if the projection's still there. So fanfiction itself doesn't -have- to be like this, is what I mean.

I didn't mean to be just saying that it's 'all about canon' for me. Sure, if it's interesting, it's interesting, but maaaaan am I tired of certain things by now, too :D Like the Harry-admires-Draco's-Slytherin-coolness-and-mysterious-nature bit. I swear to god, it makes me gag, and not because it's 'not canon' but just because it's so... against the spirit of the pairing or something. There's such a thing as mojo, and there's also such a thing as murdering it painfully and slowly in its bed :D

So yeah, I feel like the 'obsession, lust 'n hatred' bit could use a bit more attention than it gets, not because of canon, even, but just 'cause it'd spice things up & make 'em more interesting. I also never really dig a writer on an aesthetic level if it's too easy to tell they're 'using' a character or obviously over-sympathetic to them-- Maya's an exception (and to some extent Cassie, similarly) 'cause she's just awesome and she makes her Draco worth the adoration he gets. Even then I like her darkfics more :> So in many ways if the writer's not aware they're writing fanon, I just write them off as being clearly not all that bright, but if they -are-, I'm just usually frustrated 'cause they don't care about these characters as much as I do :> I -have- seen people wave the fanon/porn/stop-telling-me-I'm-writing-OOC-bitch! flag and it's like "........yeah, when you stop telling me not to care or that ICness is an illusion, sure" :> And then there's the whole bit where otherwise good writers sincerely believe things about canon!Harry (aaaaand his relationship with Draco secondarily) that make me want to smack them :> Not saying it's Wrong with a capital W or anything, mind you, just annoying! :D

...many Draco fans like-- or at least don't dislike-- Snape/Draco, and since I know many Draco fans, the pressure is there.... *shudders*

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that you were a canon-obsessive! :) It's clear that you're diagnosing a tendency, and proposing another tendency to correct it. And you're right -- if you're not seizing on something significant about these character's relationship, rather than something trivial, it's hard to know why you're bothering with JKR's characters. I think I reviewed "Big Dick Come Quick" somewhere and said that it was kind of a fun story, but I wasn't sure why the protagonists had the same names as Harry Potter characters. That kind of disconnect is definitely annoying and unsatisfying, I agree!

To be honest, I just don't read enough stuff to even be able to generalize about what's going on now. I dip in and sample here and there and every so often I end up with a prize but mostly it's more peanuts, you know? I loves me my classics, and Maya and Mira and a few others whose shorts are always worth reading. (And I'm holding you to your promises on your DE fic.) And I keep hoping for some great discovery or some great new person. The neat thing about meta is you can do it even when the fics suck!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

And yeah, most H/S fic sucks donkey ass in terms of Snape characterization, hahaha. They love him too much :D
Hehe, I don't think H/D -has- to be unhealthy, but yeah, it bothers me in practice 'cause it's OOC the way people generally do it :> Just like Snape doesn't -have- to be impossible to transform/change, but it certainly wouldn't happen the way people do it :D My only entirely positive experience with a Snape/Harry fic is (dunno if you've read it, but it's classic) thisveryinstant's post-OoTP Truth (http://www.noiresensus.com/bookshelf/harrypotter/truth.html). I seriously have no words for how awesome and amazingly(!!) believable(!!!!) that fic is. I was like, gaping and going OMG SHE MADE ME BELIEVE IN HARRY/SNAPE HOLYFUCK HOLYFUCK! Without really changing Snape, however :D I think, really, it's somewhat scary to contemplate changing Snape too much, 'cause I personally like him -because- he is the way he is. I suppose in many ways that's how I feel about H/D also, though I do love their transformative potential-- they're teenage boys, not old grumpy professors, too. I just wish people didn't jump the gun so much to get to the 'good stuff'-- it may be satisfying to them to write, but notsomuch to the reader after the ten zillionth time, y'know :>

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec on "Truth." I had never read it, actually, and I liked a lot of it. It didn't break through my Snape/Harry barrier -- when Snape started to get aroused, I confess I was laughing, and not in a good way. (Like I was a few minutes later in that great scene where they talk about turning the lights off.) But I loved a lot of the ideas in it. Especially the way the truth-serum might break through Harry's own resistances and blind spots and clarify things for him. Or that Snape's fascination lies in imagining the ways, the strategies, he uses to control his inner roiling, and watching when they break down.

I just think his control is far less precarious than she portrays, and I guess the main reason I can't buy this particular breakdown is that I think the professor role is too important in Snape's emotional economy. It's the last thing he'll lose. It's hard to conceive of it slipping except as part of a more comprehensive collapse of his personality. And Snape is never pathetic that way. But it's cool. I definitely respect the fic and I'm glad I read it, which I can't honestly say for most H/S. But it's 60% plausible rather than the usual 30%, maybe.

Thanks also for reccing "And I Get By" the other day, which is 100%! I love that fic and hadn't read it in a long time but any time is a good time to reread it.

Just curious . . . .

[frayach-nicuill.livejournal.com]

. . . since my fic is one of the ones mentioned on hd_prophet whether it falls under the category of "are we even reading the same books"?

Re: Just curious . . . .

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ah, no ^^;;; It's probably my own fault that my attention span is so frazzled that I leave alone the multi-parters and just skim the R & over one-shots -.-

Re: Just curious . . . .

[frayach-nicuill.livejournal.com]

Phew! 'Coz damn I've been trying my darnedest to stick to canon. You almost gave my poor unhappy self a heart-attack (I'm already having a crap day and it's only 8:35 in the morning).

I read what I thought was a really interesting, really fabulous fic the other day which, if you haven't read it already, maybe you might like. It's by sansa1970 titled A Mile in his Shoes (http://www.turn-of-the-page.com/TheTwoBroomsticksFallFicaThon/Sansa--AMileInHisShoes.html).

Also, and this is just a thought and I could be totally wrong, because I, too, (ironically, since I'm writing one myself) don't read new chaptered fics unless they've been recced by someone I trust, - maybe the more in-canon writers are writing longer pieces. I'm not at all saying that just because something's labeled a "one-shot" that it can't be a serious in-canon piece (I mean, look at your work!), and I also know there are plenty of chaptered OOC fics out there. But even though I'm sure I haven't read as extensively as you have in fanon yet, it seems to me that the longer the piece, the more it has to offer character-wise. Broad generalization, I know. But I wonder if your dissatisfaction may arise (at least partially) from reading only the shorter pieces. Also, every fic that's an "R" or "NC-17" one-shot, post-HBP, by necessity I think, has to play a bit fast & loose with canon. It's the rare writer imo who can make Harry and Draco's uncontextualized fucking make sense in a one-shot post-Sectumsempra (and if you haven't seen it already, check out my comment to your recent fic post regarding just that).

LOL. This is all really a poorly-disguised attempt at getting you to read my fic. *sigh* I'm such a reader-slut. But seriously, this latest chapter I wrote (chapter three) actually works as a one-shot. You can read it without having read the previous chapters. It's really a stand-alone. And I almost promoted it as such, because I know people just don't read the multi-part fics. Depressing as that is.

Re: Just curious . . . .

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, just to show you how twitchy I am about fics:
The sight of Harry Potter no longer made him itch to grab his wand. He’d left that grudge behind years ago.
This probably means I won't like it that much :P Seriously, whyyyyyyy do people do this?? WHYYYY?? Plenty of otherwise good fics seriously irritate me 'cause they focus on plot/interaction that isn't taking this whole hating-each-other's-guts thing into account. At least they could irritate each other. Or just be like 'you're a loser'. It doesn't have to be 'omg DIE DIE DIE!' but. Heh. :> Anyway, when I say 'one-shot' I mean 'something that isn't a 'chaptered-fic-length-fic-without-chapters' :D Generally. I do like some longfics (obviously), but I really... like very few these days, mostly 'cause most longfic writers focus on plot rather than characterization first, and I'm 'meh' about most people's plot ideas. Last longfic I loved was Ociwen's A Very Long Misadventure, which had Harry & Draco time-travel to 5th Century England which just -happens- to be my favorite time-period in British history, but this sort of plot doesn't come along every day :>

Anyway, it's not so much that I want 'serious' fics-- I actually avoid too-serious fics 'cause they require too much investment of my brain/energy, which I prefer to use sparingly ;) I'd rather just not be -annoyed- at a fic because it's so cracked out-- I'm not specifically looking for super-serious canon studies. I don't think -I- really write super-serious fics (most of the ones that are finished, anyway)-- I just sort of write porn, snarky!fluff & emo Harry!angst & other stuff gets mixed in naturally (like... characterization).

I do actually like long meaty sex-heavy fics in most other fandoms (...and HP), it's just that one-shots don't require as much originality-- can sail more on style & characterization. I don't need character development/growth if I can have something recognizable. And okay, yeah, it's really hard to just write smut post-HBP... or post-OoTP, which is why I originally wanted to have the Big Bang-- 'cause I wanted longer fics to 'feel' like shorter fics-- same 'bang', but more plot to make it believable. In practice, most people's longfics are... slow and less intense/punchy than one-shots would be. Addictive H/D, to me, would be like... a punchy soap-opera except with angst and Voldemort and lots of angry sex and snark. :D

Currently falling over asleep, so may not be making sense, though....

Re: Just curious . . . .

[(Anonymous)]

Ohhh...surfed through here, but am glad I did; I agree with what you're saying--I can buy something short and punchy when it comes to certain pairings, especially ones that are difficult to maneuver into (H/D would be one), but when it all gets written out, something ends up suffering (usually, as you said, the characterization) and it's almost like the unbelieveabilty of the pairing becomes exposed--like the longer you go, the further away from canon characters it get. (Reading the characters as they appear in the first chapter against the characters as they appear in the last chater is often a horrifyng experience...)

A good case in point in favor of the short fic is that smutmas fic that's gotten a lot of attention, "Noticed Him Fading." The characters manage to stay themselves for all of it and there's no cliched spy-angst plotline to wade through. I wonder how true that would have been if the writer had filled in the gaps?

And in defense of A Mile in His Shoes--Harry is definitely still *very* angry at Draco. If you give the fic another go, you'll see that Draco's become realatively mellow about things partially because of circumstance, and also as his own post-war coping strategy (while Harry's coping strategy has been quite different.) Don't know if that makes it sound more palatable or not. ;)

Re: Just curious . . . .

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah... though, I mean, more than 70% of the time, it being a one-shot doesn't make it any less unbelievable in practice 'cause people don't bother really utilizing canon dynamics. It's just even more blatant in chaptered/longer fics, especially 'cause more than half the time those already -start out- with 'Oh, and Harry was really confused because he thought Draco was so cool and hot and mysterious-- whyever could that be??'. So I feel a bit optimistic even when the first chapter rings true; that's why I give up if within the first chapter or two, you already have Harry waxing poetic to himself (or Draco, conversely, going 'oh that Potter... who cares about -him-... I am too wealthy & hot to bother with uncultured types').

I already commented on 'Noticed Him Fading' to pheasantplucker below, who linked me to it also. I liked it, but I think the ICness is pretty surface-- none of their conflicts/issues together were faced or resolved, and the way it deals with it all is by sidestepping and making light of Draco's Angest and Pane, etc. While it's cute, it's not really the sort of fic I consider 'classic' H/D or proof one-shots for the pairing work, post-OoTP (before 5th book, cute!Draco was the one more IC than super-angsty!Death Eater!Draco, ahahah, funny to recall). For some reason, furiosity's pre-HBP Like I Don't Even Know You (http://www.glass-fairytales.net/hp/dontevenknowyou.html) comes to mind as 'punchy', hehe, but I could be remembering a different fic. it's just that they tend to be darker, more emotionally violent and more sexual than 'Noticed Him Fading'.

I have a history of boycotting fics 'cause Draco (generally it's Draco) is cured for whatever reason of his 'childish grudge'; one of my problems is just the thing of having Draco think his years-long Potter vendetta unimportant. Even if I don't think it's OOC for him to 'grow up' and out of it (as he sort of did in HBP), he was really preoccupied back in book 6 and still snapped at Harry twice (in the train and with the bathroom scene) in quite a violent manner. This isn't a childish grudge, y'know... at least to me. I got quite upset with HBP!Draco for quite a while, having a grudge against -him- for not obsessing over Harry for whatever reason, ahahaha, and 'growing up'. It was bittersweet, definitely. Anyway, it's just anti-shippy for me to have them not combust violently together.

That said, really I just don't have the patience/drive to read H/D or HP longfics in general, even by my close friends whom I know are brilliant ^^;;; When I can't muster up the energy to read mistful's new longfic, you know Fanfic Writer X is way out of the running, ahahah -.-

Re: Just curious . . . .

[frayach-nicuill.livejournal.com]

Going back to "A Mile in his Shoes," again, I agree with anonymous' take on it (and I was going to write something alone the same lines yesterday but then got side-tracked by work). Harry is still furious at Draco. And while I agree that fics which simply say that Draco somehow "grew out of it," are naive, I don't think that's what happened in "Mile." There's not a lot of backstory given (which I think is one of the really brilliant aspects to it), but there's a very strong suggestion that Draco has undergone some kind of soul-breaking extreme trauma that simply shattered his world and his world-view. He's put himself together again, piece by piece, and the result is a changed Draco on many levels. But not so changed that he's unrecognizable. I found it a very convincing exploration of how extreme trauma can be transformative (and the untold backstories behind the other people living with Harry underscores this exploration). I agree that stories that sugar-coat or otherwise gloss over Harry and Draco's history are annoying. In many ways, I don't see the point to them, because the thing that attracts me to H/D is precisely that history. So, I really don't think I would have loved "Mile" as much as I did if I really thought that's what was happening there.

Anyway, that's just my two-cents on that.

Regarding longer vs. shorter pieces, I can definitely see what both you and Anon are saying. Like you, I'm not all that interested in other writers' new "plots." (Although I recently got sucked in big time by Phoenix Song's Eclipse . . . but anyway.) Generally, I do have to agree that characterization is often sacrificed to plot in longer fics. That's one of the reasons I'm writing mine as a loose collection of short fics held together with a unifying POV rather than as a more-or-less day-by-day plot-based fic. The entire reason I'm writing my story is to understand canon Draco. So, in essence it's just one big long character study. I fell in love with Harry and Draco. Not with my own plot concepts, or what-have-you. So, when I write, that's my focus: characterization.

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

except to shudder at the persistent idea he 'admires' Draco's Slytherin sexy-coolness in canon

I think we can agree it's all bad fanfic, but the vibe I keep getting from fanon Harry is the "spunky" (and I mean it in the worst possible way) girl who rebels until she's tamed and the aloof and unavailable ice prince makes sweet sweet love to her because he has to comfort her too because she's so insecure and shy underneath it all. Uh. Maybe it's the same characterization seen from two differently-squicked angles *g*

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

This was good however!!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, yeah. I don't know what to -do- with liking an H/D fic, though. It's like... freaky & uncomfortable, a bit *___*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...It actually made me think of why I don't write what amounts to post-HBP snarky!fluff myself (because this worked!), and I think that even though it worked, I can't write my old cute Draco because it doesn't work with my Harry anymore. Like, if you only have a little bit of him, it's okay, but as soon as they have more interaction (in my head), they have too much conflict to resolve easily (and that fic doesn't resolve it either, just sort of sidesteps it neatly due to plot/structure). When I write a canon-referencing fic, I think it's just hard to achieve that sort of... weird innocence. I don't know if that makes sense, but that fic read as innocent to me-- or maybe just optimistic? Not unbelievable but still.

...Trying to think about it further, I think it's that it's basically comedic, so Draco's 'rage' and 'hatred' aren't, really-- they're sort of cute, enjoyable. I always loved Draco like that, but at the same time I can't see Draco's angst as 'cute' post-HBP by myself (though I tried with 'Evolution Principle', it was only by skewing his characterization on purpose and just taking it away altogether). The cute thing about that fic is that it works if you don't try to take it too seriously-- the uncute thing about me is that I always take my fics seriously unless it's just an over-the-top parody -.-;;

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

I disagree; it seems to me that it's cute because the conflict between them is superable as of now, something that can completely stay on the surface while they approach on other levels. Draco's angst post HBP is not Harry-related. The characters are changing, and making their dislike of each other unworkable seems superimposed more than it's necessary.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

"Superable"? Not sure what you mean; however, regardless I imagine it's cute 'cause she made it that way, not that it -has- to be if you're IC (no pairing -has- to be just because of its nature, not even shoujo like Kodomo no Omocha).
Still, it's definitely true that I suspect I overdo the angst/conflict factor-- I really don't trust myself post-HBP to know how Draco feels, it's just after long angstying and deciding 'fuck H/D if they're like this' (you know what I'm like! saying that about how their dislike is surface just makes me bored with them...) I've finally decided that there are signs Draco's only distant/'aloof' in HBP because he was soooo preoccupied. I think it was Sister M who convinced me not to give up; partly 'cause Draco was so easily set off/angry when they -did- confront each other, partly because all that history makes them distrust/dislike each other even if Draco's not angstying/obsessing over Harry as his #1 Nemesis (which he's obviously not).

Harry's changing, but a 'drop of pity' isn't earth-shattering, just something to work with, and that work isn't going to be smooth going or free of resentment/lingering issues/blow-ups. They have very different values/beliefs & personalities, and you're forgetting that Harry isn't the most patient or sensitive boy in the world even to his friends. Even if Draco doesn't obsess on his Harry-hate, I'm sure being around Harry a little bit more than in 6th year would resurrect it. I never said their dislike of each other is 'unworkable', though-- it never has been. I merely said that -that fic- was able to be cute/light-hearted because it didn't really confront their issues/inherent conflicts enough to show what's workable or not.

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

I am at a loss because you seem to be saying that you want them to be able to solve their conflict but at the same time they shouldn't because that's boring? ;P

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think what I'm saying is that I don't want it to be too easy, and don't think it is, that there are all these issues remaining even though things aren't -the same- post-HBP, obviously. Like, I personally am more interested in the conflict/issues and how one deals with them than actually having them dealt with and seeing what happens then-- but I still think it's important that they can, they should, etc. Sort of to say that a goal is important but I care more about the journey. They shouldn't do it too easily/quickly/smoothly-- THAT'S boring. And if it's really IC, it's beyond boring to actually being depressing; might as well ship some fluffy pairing, then, that sort of thing.

At the same time, it's not that I want their conflict 'solved' (I believe I said this elsewhere?); I want it explored and eventually resolved, but 'solved' seems like a pat answer or something straightforward, like A+B=C, whereas in my head it's really a mess. I mean, I like them fucked up, but it's better if I'm not imagining/constructing angst out of thin air-- I wouldn't do it at all if I thought it was extraneous & really you can write a quick and light-hearted one-shot that seriously addresses the issues. ^^;;;

I just really hate the idea that Draco is 'over' his issues with Harry post-HBP because he has bigger fish to fry; I mean, I've talked about this before, right? It's why I mostly gave up on writing/reading H/D for like a year or so, and still haven't recovered. Post-HBP everyone seemed to think this is it-- the hard part's over and now the only issue is taking care of Draco's safety-- and everyone wrote fics with suddenly-understanding-and-sensitive!Harry and poor-victim-of-circumstance!Draco. In a comedic fic, it works for me, but then in a comedic fic, Veela!Draco works for me as well.

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

What I want to know is where is all this H/C, I can't seem to find it.

I think Draco will always hate Harry, he's just gained perspective. I lost my drive to debate this, sorry. All I want is to take the piss about Draco's Daddy. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

You can't really hate (or really love) a person 'with perspective'-- you can sort of remember hating them without perspective and go 'okay, that was silly, I really had better things to do'. ^^; You can also -think- you have perspective because you're not directly involved/interacting with them. Although I'm explaining myself, not debating (for the sake of rhetoric or whatever).

...it's not really H/C, per se, though really back when I actually read H/D post-HBP there really was a bunch.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Not 'spunky' :(( Fanon!Harry is NOT spunky, seriously-- if you think that's 'spunky' I can see why you don't get why I like it. :P Then again, I don't see Harry rebelling-- most fics start out with the admiration/attraction/etc right off the bat. Y'know, and on top of that Draco's not even Aloof & Unavailable 'cause he's too gentle and sophisticated-- 'Aloof' sounds too mean & antisocial for fanon!Draco ^^;;;; The sad thing is, maybe if Harry rebelled and Draco was a cold asshole I'd at least enjoy it on -some- level (...I mean, I do like shoujo manga.....) ahahahafslajkfs

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's a persecution complex, er, a case of distorted perception. I see the fics that bother me as predominant, you see the fics that bother you as such. Ahah come to think of it, I can see at least a couple of fics you recced me having "spunky" Harry. Draco is aloof when the reader must see how special Harry is for getting the impossible guy, and gentle when the part comes to adore the very adorable Harry.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

....well, I hope you don't think I like the gentle/special thing. *shudder* But yeah, of course it's the persecution complex :)) I really tend to dislike any kind of traditional sweetness/romance for H/D just 'cause of past traumas, so anything that's not painful and fucked up is like "...I don't trust this..."