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reenkaThe thing is, basically-- the thing is that I constantly feel the need to somehow defend what amounts to my bitchy elitism, maybe. Or, not defend defend it, but make it sound reasonable and okay, whereas really I'm just ridiculously picky, I mean. I know that, but. My mom says I should embrace my inner elitist bitch (but my mom is your typical Jewish mother in that sense). My mom also says internet culture is a 'virus' and telling online people about your life is a sign of mental disturbance, but let's not go into that. Um.
It's just that the more I know certain characters, right, the more I want to see them in their context in fics I read. AUs are actually much better than OOC same-universe stuff for this reason-- the better ones recreate an equivalent context that sort of gets the same results through different methods (so like, we try to explain away Hermione's need to prove herself in some other way than her being Muggle-born in a school of wizards, say).
Like, okay, with Hermione: I would say that her analytical intelligence, her way of solving problems through research is her individual 'text', so to speak. Her admiration of Harry for his bravery and skill outside of 'books and cleverness' is her context, and to me, very much as important as the fact of her intelligence/braininess/etc. Therefore, when pairing her in fanon with another 'brainy' character, I'd think it's important to remember she doesn't actually seem to value her own type of intelligence that much on its own but only in terms of how it can be applied.
But yeah, context and intact relationships of all sorts are key to my finding something 'IC' (and often just 'readable' and 'remotely enjoyable' these days). It's really not about overall 'realism' as much as the pretty limited realism of, to start off with, keeping people connected to the people they're connected to, in the negative and positive ways. Keeping that web of relationships afloat is actually separate, I think, from the larger context of Canon with a capital C, too, which is why in certain fandoms especially, AUs are so very possible and enjoyable. It's because the characters' relationships with each other are a universe all their own, and damned-- damned if I don't get tetchy every time someone makes a glaring misrepresentation of that universe.
Man, I don't care if you get your 'hard' facts wrong as long as you get your relationships right. That is really the source of my fic-reading woes, methinks. Well, that and the character-bashing.
Meaning, it's almost like I care more that Harry still likes Ginny (or to be more specific, still liked Ginny in sixth year, still enjoyed her personality and thought she was witty/cool/etc, still was possessive of her and at least bisexual thanks to the 'monster' in his, uh, chest, kthnx)-- all this is nearly more important to me than the 'fact' that his last name is actually Potter and he's got to kill Voldemort (I mean, he does, but that's important to me because of his relationship to Voldy as much as anything). And, like, if it's some time later and now he doesn't give a damn about her and will bitch about her freely to his former school nemesis-- I want to know why, and it shouldn't be because he realized he never 'really' loved her (so, are they friends? what about the fact that he still only 'likes' her as of HBP?), or because she's just such a manipulative bitch (seems pretty Gryffindor in her confrontational straightforwardness-- once over her shyness-- to me). And it really shouldn't be because she betrayed him in order to sleep with Voldemort, unless you back this up with plot, 'cause she -is- vulnerable to Tom (though I bet less so than she was before) and Harry isn't real forgiving of betrayal.
Actually, I could even see forgoing the bisexuality and having Harry 'wake up gay' because you could say he never got very far with Ginny in sixth year and then it just 'didn't work'. Y'know. Uh. Though that's unlikely considering just how jealous he was and how physical his liking of her seemed, so. I dunno, man.
In other words, it should make sense without making Ginny any more of a bitch than she already is, and remembering that she's a bitch, sure, to anyone but Harry, and well-- he seems to like that about her, judging from how he reacted to her snarking at Ron, say; c'mon, can't be -too- hard.
I was just trying to decide why it's so offensive to me to read a fic that basically rewrites historical context like that-- like, suddenly Harry only noticed Ginny 'cause she's obsessed (uh, no, sorry, he noticed her once she stopped, thank you), or where Draco suddenly doesn't care anymore about his father's approval or Harry noticing him (though that last is actually only pre-HBP canon, meaning it's the reverse that concerns me now, since basically his family concerns overwhelmed any great need he had to taunt Harry 24/7-- it became something of an on-the-spot hazard, didn't it).
It seems worse than 'he woke up gay one day, whatdya know'. Though, I mean, that actually happens. The point is that this change, while seemingly convenient for a given story, changes all sorts of things for me in my head, in terms of how I perceive the character-- it's like a chain reaction.
Ding, ding, ding, you changed this one facet of their life and now a million other things wouldn't have happened quite that way, or wouldn't have happened at all (like, if Draco didn't obsessively need to prove himself, -or- wasn't also deeply loyal to his family and if Harry's irrational, deeply-set suspicion of Draco's motives wasn't soooo entrenched, all of book 6 wouldn't have happened the way it did-- and this does apply to fanfic as well).
In my understanding of people, basically, you can't summarily separate their personalities (probably what the average fan finds attractive, together with appearance) from their allegiances, their biases, their histories. Draco is no longer 'Draco' to me if he is no longer extremely loyal to his father & his father's beliefs/etc, even though that's not a part of his 'personality' per se; Harry is no longer 'Harry' if he can really make his relationship with Draco truly more important to him than his friendship with Ron and Hermione.
You can't still say you like Harry, can't say you're really writing Harry, at least, if you don't like it that he likes certain qualities of Ginny's, of Hagrid's, of Dumbledore's, of Ron's, and dislikes certain other qualities in Draco, say. What I mean is, you're free to like or dislike whatever, naturally, it's just that Harry feels what he does: he just does, and that is a part of him as much as his childhood at the Dursleys and his love for Quidditch. Ignoring that in a fic makes me feel like you're talking about some other character even if most of his personality remains the same, I just can't help it!
Basically, I -wish- I was like the people who say they'd like anything as long as it was decently well-written and bearably recognizable (and had hot exciting boy-on-boy action, of course). I wish it was so easy, but when I know enough about the characters, it just can't be, it seems to me. Especially with Harry, even though there's an extreme amount of information about him in canon, there's certain things that are central to him, like. He's pretty defensive/insecure about himself ever since the Dursleys, right, so anyone who acts all holier-than-thou and vain and super-elite is going to just instinctively piss him off. He's not going to think it's 'cute' or endearing anytime soon, y'know, 'cause it's a major issue for him even if -you- think that makes Draco cute.
Argh, I dunno. It's just that I can't help but notice these things. I don't really con-crit people and I don't actually have anything useful to offer anyone, but. People who have the attitude of 'it's just fanfic' or 'why do you even care, just have fun' or 'well, other people love it'-- I mean, yeah, so? Other people love it, but other people think Mercedes Lackey is the best fantasy writer ever, too.
In conclusion... man.
Ginny-bashing coming from Harry in otherwise enjoyable H/D just -really- throws me out of the fic. o_0 Yeah, and next he'll bash Molly and Ron to Draco; then he'll say Slytherins are superior, Purebloods forever and down with everything Dumbledore stood for. All it would take is some sweet sweet lovin' from Draco: they're on a first-name basis, y'know. -.-
It's just that the more I know certain characters, right, the more I want to see them in their context in fics I read. AUs are actually much better than OOC same-universe stuff for this reason-- the better ones recreate an equivalent context that sort of gets the same results through different methods (so like, we try to explain away Hermione's need to prove herself in some other way than her being Muggle-born in a school of wizards, say).
Like, okay, with Hermione: I would say that her analytical intelligence, her way of solving problems through research is her individual 'text', so to speak. Her admiration of Harry for his bravery and skill outside of 'books and cleverness' is her context, and to me, very much as important as the fact of her intelligence/braininess/etc. Therefore, when pairing her in fanon with another 'brainy' character, I'd think it's important to remember she doesn't actually seem to value her own type of intelligence that much on its own but only in terms of how it can be applied.
But yeah, context and intact relationships of all sorts are key to my finding something 'IC' (and often just 'readable' and 'remotely enjoyable' these days). It's really not about overall 'realism' as much as the pretty limited realism of, to start off with, keeping people connected to the people they're connected to, in the negative and positive ways. Keeping that web of relationships afloat is actually separate, I think, from the larger context of Canon with a capital C, too, which is why in certain fandoms especially, AUs are so very possible and enjoyable. It's because the characters' relationships with each other are a universe all their own, and damned-- damned if I don't get tetchy every time someone makes a glaring misrepresentation of that universe.
Man, I don't care if you get your 'hard' facts wrong as long as you get your relationships right. That is really the source of my fic-reading woes, methinks. Well, that and the character-bashing.
Meaning, it's almost like I care more that Harry still likes Ginny (or to be more specific, still liked Ginny in sixth year, still enjoyed her personality and thought she was witty/cool/etc, still was possessive of her and at least bisexual thanks to the 'monster' in his, uh, chest, kthnx)-- all this is nearly more important to me than the 'fact' that his last name is actually Potter and he's got to kill Voldemort (I mean, he does, but that's important to me because of his relationship to Voldy as much as anything). And, like, if it's some time later and now he doesn't give a damn about her and will bitch about her freely to his former school nemesis-- I want to know why, and it shouldn't be because he realized he never 'really' loved her (so, are they friends? what about the fact that he still only 'likes' her as of HBP?), or because she's just such a manipulative bitch (seems pretty Gryffindor in her confrontational straightforwardness-- once over her shyness-- to me). And it really shouldn't be because she betrayed him in order to sleep with Voldemort, unless you back this up with plot, 'cause she -is- vulnerable to Tom (though I bet less so than she was before) and Harry isn't real forgiving of betrayal.
Actually, I could even see forgoing the bisexuality and having Harry 'wake up gay' because you could say he never got very far with Ginny in sixth year and then it just 'didn't work'. Y'know. Uh. Though that's unlikely considering just how jealous he was and how physical his liking of her seemed, so. I dunno, man.
In other words, it should make sense without making Ginny any more of a bitch than she already is, and remembering that she's a bitch, sure, to anyone but Harry, and well-- he seems to like that about her, judging from how he reacted to her snarking at Ron, say; c'mon, can't be -too- hard.
I was just trying to decide why it's so offensive to me to read a fic that basically rewrites historical context like that-- like, suddenly Harry only noticed Ginny 'cause she's obsessed (uh, no, sorry, he noticed her once she stopped, thank you), or where Draco suddenly doesn't care anymore about his father's approval or Harry noticing him (though that last is actually only pre-HBP canon, meaning it's the reverse that concerns me now, since basically his family concerns overwhelmed any great need he had to taunt Harry 24/7-- it became something of an on-the-spot hazard, didn't it).
It seems worse than 'he woke up gay one day, whatdya know'. Though, I mean, that actually happens. The point is that this change, while seemingly convenient for a given story, changes all sorts of things for me in my head, in terms of how I perceive the character-- it's like a chain reaction.
Ding, ding, ding, you changed this one facet of their life and now a million other things wouldn't have happened quite that way, or wouldn't have happened at all (like, if Draco didn't obsessively need to prove himself, -or- wasn't also deeply loyal to his family and if Harry's irrational, deeply-set suspicion of Draco's motives wasn't soooo entrenched, all of book 6 wouldn't have happened the way it did-- and this does apply to fanfic as well).
In my understanding of people, basically, you can't summarily separate their personalities (probably what the average fan finds attractive, together with appearance) from their allegiances, their biases, their histories. Draco is no longer 'Draco' to me if he is no longer extremely loyal to his father & his father's beliefs/etc, even though that's not a part of his 'personality' per se; Harry is no longer 'Harry' if he can really make his relationship with Draco truly more important to him than his friendship with Ron and Hermione.
You can't still say you like Harry, can't say you're really writing Harry, at least, if you don't like it that he likes certain qualities of Ginny's, of Hagrid's, of Dumbledore's, of Ron's, and dislikes certain other qualities in Draco, say. What I mean is, you're free to like or dislike whatever, naturally, it's just that Harry feels what he does: he just does, and that is a part of him as much as his childhood at the Dursleys and his love for Quidditch. Ignoring that in a fic makes me feel like you're talking about some other character even if most of his personality remains the same, I just can't help it!
Basically, I -wish- I was like the people who say they'd like anything as long as it was decently well-written and bearably recognizable (and had hot exciting boy-on-boy action, of course). I wish it was so easy, but when I know enough about the characters, it just can't be, it seems to me. Especially with Harry, even though there's an extreme amount of information about him in canon, there's certain things that are central to him, like. He's pretty defensive/insecure about himself ever since the Dursleys, right, so anyone who acts all holier-than-thou and vain and super-elite is going to just instinctively piss him off. He's not going to think it's 'cute' or endearing anytime soon, y'know, 'cause it's a major issue for him even if -you- think that makes Draco cute.
Argh, I dunno. It's just that I can't help but notice these things. I don't really con-crit people and I don't actually have anything useful to offer anyone, but. People who have the attitude of 'it's just fanfic' or 'why do you even care, just have fun' or 'well, other people love it'-- I mean, yeah, so? Other people love it, but other people think Mercedes Lackey is the best fantasy writer ever, too.
In conclusion... man.
Ginny-bashing coming from Harry in otherwise enjoyable H/D just -really- throws me out of the fic. o_0 Yeah, and next he'll bash Molly and Ron to Draco; then he'll say Slytherins are superior, Purebloods forever and down with everything Dumbledore stood for. All it would take is some sweet sweet lovin' from Draco: they're on a first-name basis, y'know. -.-
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no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 09:55 pm (UTC)Hm. I dunno if-- I mean, does all this -have- to mean I'm talking about adult relationships with compromises and baggage? Don't we all have baggage, I mean, even at 11 we already have friends and fast loyalties and contextual prejudices as Harry showed by rejecting Malfoy on the train, right? I suppose when we grow up we become more accepting and able to deal with this baggage, but even when we're teenagers, the baggage, the web of relationships/loyalties/history exists, right?
And yeah, I like that. A Malfoy who's a different person :D That would be great :D :D
Ginny's character is written so that she could easily wind up getting over Harry
I don't know about this, though. She played around, but that was just 'pretend', according to Hermione-- she was still hung up on Harry (since she was 10??), it's just that then she decided to 'just be herself' with the useful addition of acting like she was over Harry so he'd notice her more. I mean, that is seriously what Hermione said, wasn't it? That, to me, doesn't speak of a girl who'd get over Harry any time soon. Harry-- he, on the other hand, wouldn't have too hard of a time getting over her at this point 'cause it's obvious Ron & Hermione are his real emotional anchors. But Ginny? Has spent even her so-called 'player' period secretly wishing Harry would ask her out, and when he did, even though she was dating Dean, she dropped him like bad laundry because I think he honestly meant nothing to her compared to Harry, and their relationship seemed to be on the rocks (maybe that's why she went through so many guys, just 'cause she couldn't settle on anyone but Harry & they could tell her heart wasn't in it!)
Um, but yeah, they could grow apart. On Ginny's part, I imagine there would be a lot of disillusionment and bitterness which she'd eventually get over, and Harry would be oblivious yet well-intentioned yet actually pretty self-centered as usual. Ginny wouldn't be a bitch to him 'cause I imagine she physically can't, and would always want the best for him and encourage him to go out there and seize the day like he should, whether or not it includes being gay or being the savior of the Wizarding World. I mean, I know it sounds unbelievable and saccharine and too good to be true, but that's just how this character was written as far as I can tell, and I reeeeeeeally wish more people (read: H/D writers) would notice, ARGH -.-
(I wish I was reading those on-good-terms!ex-H/G fics but suspect I'd find a million other things wrong with them. Um. Heh.)
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 12:09 am (UTC)Oh yes--but I was thinking specifically of Ginny here, so I was thinking of having old relationships that changed into something else. Really making the characters hate everyone the author wants them to hate is bad in any story and it always has been. Whatever's being done to Ginny has been probably done worse to Pansy for years. How many times has she been this raging harpy slut who just wants Draco's money and he can't stand the sight of her and thinks she's a pug just like Harry does? Same thing. We're probably just lucky Draco's never said anything specifically bad about Ginny or you'd hear Harry saying it in the stories.
I don't know about this, though. She played around, but that was just 'pretend', according to Hermione-- she was still hung up on Harry (since she was 10??), it's just that then she decided to 'just be herself' with the useful addition of acting like she was over Harry so he'd notice her more.
I think we're talking about two different things. In canon, Ginny's not going to get over Harry. But she's got, imo, plenty of things in her personality that in a different story make it easy for her to get over Harry. I mean, who cares if she never really got over her crush? We're still just talking about a a boy in high school she'd love to date. Just as JKR can make the relationship perfect just as Ginny always dreamed it could be, so could you make it something Ginny had, and it was nice, and then she got older and there were other things she wanted. Scarlett O'Hara wanted Ashley Wilkes for an awfully long time, and did a lot of things just for pretend to get his attention, but she still got over him!
Maybe it's just the quality of JKR's romance writing, but I just don't see H/G as being tha big of a thing to get over. Within canon, sure it is, because Harry's the hero and Ginny was created to be his girlfriend, but in a wider world I have no trouble believing any story where Ginny is just Harry's ex. I don't imagine her ever being really bitchy to him, myself, either, but I think even that seems like it comes from the fact that their romance just doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Actually, I am now realizing I see Draco/Pansy as being sort of similar. They have a very different relationship but I easily believe stories where they're adults and have broken up but are still friends and are in each other's corner--only I see them as more living in each other's pockets than H/G, because they were better friends.
Btw, I don't think Ginny is dating Dean when Harry asks her out. They've already broken up.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 12:41 am (UTC)But yeah, I um... I do think the Ashley Wilkes thing is a great comparison, actually! Hum... I just think that's it, really-- it was really hard to get Scarlett to admit to herself she's actually over Ashley when she was and she was already in love with Rhett, and I see Ginny in a similar way, all stubborn and set on whatever she wants when she wants it (kind of like Harry, blind determination-wise). So like, even if the relationship isn't 'that great of a deal' or whatever, it's not the -relationship- in itself that Ginny's hung up on, to me, but rather the idea of it. Like, even though she seems Mary-Suish and super-together in HBP, I can't imagine she doesn't still have that relentless tendency to pine, to fixate-- she's still a very naive girl, full of absolute faith in Harry to the point where she puts his duty above her happiness (like in just accepting that he has to go off without her, unlike Ron & Hermione who're much more selfish and loyal, somehow, both at the same time-- just, more real -friends-).
So yeah, with Ginny it's just the 'awfully long time' that I was referring to; it being hard for her, whereas it's not so hard for Harry, I'd imagine-- considering how he 'got over' the deaths of Cedric and Sirius, I think he just compartmentalizes these things and would only really crack, in the end, if he lost Ron or Hermione by having one of them actually die.
I think I just see a sort of... obsessiveness and stubbornness rather than any easy-goingness in her personality. I do think it seems easy-going that she let Harry break up with her, but actually it was more on the self-sacrificing putting-up-a-front side, I think. She -seems- to be up to date with the dating people thing, but really it's a front, a conscious attempt to 'move on', etc. So... it's not that H/G is such a Big Thing as it happened but that I think of Ginny as being pretty obsessive, I guess. Um.
It's true that people have been doing it to Pansy for years :/ Meh :/ Though I've read more best-friend!Pansies than harpy!Pansies, but maybe it's just that people got it out of their system earlier. Plus Draco doesn't even have other friends except for Crabbe & Goyle unless you want to invent some for him. Come to think of it, it's hilarious 'cause in this particular fic his only friend that we've seen so far is Blaise -.-;;; Yeah, there's a reason I hate Draco's-best-friend!Blaise, and it's really fics like this.
Like... I think it's possible, also, to make Ginny disillusioned and have 'other things she wanted', but then it depends whether they just dated or had a more 'serious' relationship, because if it was 'really perfect', it'd have both their loyalty/steadfastness kick in, maybe. Argh, I really don't like adult relationships anyway, so it kind of hurts my head to think about it too long~:))
no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 04:33 pm (UTC)Maybe she will become like, suddenly sane and stop confusing hero worship with love on this scary obsessive level? Like in your post you said:
suddenly Harry only noticed Ginny 'cause she's obsessed (uh, no, sorry, he noticed her once she stopped, thank you),
She stopped because she was obsessed.
I think a lot of people complain about bad writing for Ginny but really it's just not being into Ginny and all the shiny, wholesome things Ginny stands for as much as JKR does.
You were talking with Adora about reacting more to Ginny's bitchyness than Draco's... god, there's no need to think up ulterior motives, there's perfectly sane reasons people give all the time:
1) Draco is not being a bitch to his friends
2) Draco is not the LI and/or an Example For The Young Ones
no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 10:25 pm (UTC)She will not stop 'confusing hero worship with love' unless the writer makes her. Having the writer do that was the point of this post; you have no suggested a means, you just said 'it should happen'. Well, and I should grow wings and fly. I wanna do it now!
... I'm still waiting.
... waiting ...
....waiting... etcetc.
Anyway, I think I intrinsically think it's beside the point to judge characters in their context 'through' their larger meta-context; but this is a personal bias, so whatever. Sure, 'Draco is not an Example', but personally I don't discriminate within bitchery-- every bitch is either a bad bitch or an okay bitch to me; however, clearly this is not the case with everyone, I admit. Still annoys me.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-03 06:59 pm (UTC)I get that it annoys you, but I think it's your personal issue. There's nothing intrinsically annoying in reacting to a too strong elitarist Author's voice.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-03 09:07 pm (UTC)Anyway, growth is good, but I am bitter because everyone sucks, including me.