it's all about the con(text), intercon(nections) and con(tinuity)

[reenka]

The thing is, basically-- the thing is that I constantly feel the need to somehow defend what amounts to my bitchy elitism, maybe. Or, not defend defend it, but make it sound reasonable and okay, whereas really I'm just ridiculously picky, I mean. I know that, but. My mom says I should embrace my inner elitist bitch (but my mom is your typical Jewish mother in that sense). My mom also says internet culture is a 'virus' and telling online people about your life is a sign of mental disturbance, but let's not go into that. Um.

It's just that the more I know certain characters, right, the more I want to see them in their context in fics I read. AUs are actually much better than OOC same-universe stuff for this reason-- the better ones recreate an equivalent context that sort of gets the same results through different methods (so like, we try to explain away Hermione's need to prove herself in some other way than her being Muggle-born in a school of wizards, say).
    Like, okay, with Hermione: I would say that her analytical intelligence, her way of solving problems through research is her individual 'text', so to speak. Her admiration of Harry for his bravery and skill outside of 'books and cleverness' is her context, and to me, very much as important as the fact of her intelligence/braininess/etc. Therefore, when pairing her in fanon with another 'brainy' character, I'd think it's important to remember she doesn't actually seem to value her own type of intelligence that much on its own but only in terms of how it can be applied.

But yeah, context and intact relationships of all sorts are key to my finding something 'IC' (and often just 'readable' and 'remotely enjoyable' these days). It's really not about overall 'realism' as much as the pretty limited realism of, to start off with, keeping people connected to the people they're connected to, in the negative and positive ways. Keeping that web of relationships afloat is actually separate, I think, from the larger context of Canon with a capital C, too, which is why in certain fandoms especially, AUs are so very possible and enjoyable. It's because the characters' relationships with each other are a universe all their own, and damned-- damned if I don't get tetchy every time someone makes a glaring misrepresentation of that universe.

Man, I don't care if you get your 'hard' facts wrong as long as you get your relationships right. That is really the source of my fic-reading woes, methinks. Well, that and the character-bashing.
    

Meaning, it's almost like I care more that Harry still likes Ginny (or to be more specific, still liked Ginny in sixth year, still enjoyed her personality and thought she was witty/cool/etc, still was possessive of her and at least bisexual thanks to the 'monster' in his, uh, chest, kthnx)-- all this is nearly more important to me than the 'fact' that his last name is actually Potter and he's got to kill Voldemort (I mean, he does, but that's important to me because of his relationship to Voldy as much as anything). And, like, if it's some time later and now he doesn't give a damn about her and will bitch about her freely to his former school nemesis-- I want to know why, and it shouldn't be because he realized he never 'really' loved her (so, are they friends? what about the fact that he still only 'likes' her as of HBP?), or because she's just such a manipulative bitch (seems pretty Gryffindor in her confrontational straightforwardness-- once over her shyness-- to me). And it really shouldn't be because she betrayed him in order to sleep with Voldemort, unless you back this up with plot, 'cause she -is- vulnerable to Tom (though I bet less so than she was before) and Harry isn't real forgiving of betrayal.

Actually, I could even see forgoing the bisexuality and having Harry 'wake up gay' because you could say he never got very far with Ginny in sixth year and then it just 'didn't work'. Y'know. Uh. Though that's unlikely considering just how jealous he was and how physical his liking of her seemed, so. I dunno, man.

In other words, it should make sense without making Ginny any more of a bitch than she already is, and remembering that she's a bitch, sure, to anyone but Harry, and well-- he seems to like that about her, judging from how he reacted to her snarking at Ron, say; c'mon, can't be -too- hard.

I was just trying to decide why it's so offensive to me to read a fic that basically rewrites historical context like that-- like, suddenly Harry only noticed Ginny 'cause she's obsessed (uh, no, sorry, he noticed her once she stopped, thank you), or where Draco suddenly doesn't care anymore about his father's approval or Harry noticing him (though that last is actually only pre-HBP canon, meaning it's the reverse that concerns me now, since basically his family concerns overwhelmed any great need he had to taunt Harry 24/7-- it became something of an on-the-spot hazard, didn't it).
    It seems worse than 'he woke up gay one day, whatdya know'. Though, I mean, that actually happens. The point is that this change, while seemingly convenient for a given story, changes all sorts of things for me in my head, in terms of how I perceive the character-- it's like a chain reaction.
    Ding, ding, ding, you changed this one facet of their life and now a million other things wouldn't have happened quite that way, or wouldn't have happened at all (like, if Draco didn't obsessively need to prove himself, -or- wasn't also deeply loyal to his family and if Harry's irrational, deeply-set suspicion of Draco's motives wasn't soooo entrenched, all of book 6 wouldn't have happened the way it did-- and this does apply to fanfic as well).

In my understanding of people, basically, you can't summarily separate their personalities (probably what the average fan finds attractive, together with appearance) from their allegiances, their biases, their histories. Draco is no longer 'Draco' to me if he is no longer extremely loyal to his father & his father's beliefs/etc, even though that's not a part of his 'personality' per se; Harry is no longer 'Harry' if he can really make his relationship with Draco truly more important to him than his friendship with Ron and Hermione.

You can't still say you like Harry, can't say you're really writing Harry, at least, if you don't like it that he likes certain qualities of Ginny's, of Hagrid's, of Dumbledore's, of Ron's, and dislikes certain other qualities in Draco, say. What I mean is, you're free to like or dislike whatever, naturally, it's just that Harry feels what he does: he just does, and that is a part of him as much as his childhood at the Dursleys and his love for Quidditch. Ignoring that in a fic makes me feel like you're talking about some other character even if most of his personality remains the same, I just can't help it!

Basically, I -wish- I was like the people who say they'd like anything as long as it was decently well-written and bearably recognizable (and had hot exciting boy-on-boy action, of course). I wish it was so easy, but when I know enough about the characters, it just can't be, it seems to me. Especially with Harry, even though there's an extreme amount of information about him in canon, there's certain things that are central to him, like. He's pretty defensive/insecure about himself ever since the Dursleys, right, so anyone who acts all holier-than-thou and vain and super-elite is going to just instinctively piss him off. He's not going to think it's 'cute' or endearing anytime soon, y'know, 'cause it's a major issue for him even if -you- think that makes Draco cute.
    Argh, I dunno. It's just that I can't help but notice these things. I don't really con-crit people and I don't actually have anything useful to offer anyone, but. People who have the attitude of 'it's just fanfic' or 'why do you even care, just have fun' or 'well, other people love it'-- I mean, yeah, so? Other people love it, but other people think Mercedes Lackey is the best fantasy writer ever, too.

In conclusion... man.

Ginny-bashing coming from Harry in otherwise enjoyable H/D just -really- throws me out of the fic. o_0 Yeah, and next he'll bash Molly and Ron to Draco; then he'll say Slytherins are superior, Purebloods forever and down with everything Dumbledore stood for. All it would take is some sweet sweet lovin' from Draco: they're on a first-name basis, y'know. -.-

Comments

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

One thing I really dislike is one people feel the need to change a character so they become 'worthy'. When Draco's suddenly a fashion model/political theorist who's actually more mature than Harry, that's when I hit the back button. I'm sorry, I know characters can grow, but when there's so little of the original Draco in it that the only obvious resemblance is the hair that's when it's OOC. And there's no way to comment on that because hey! that's how this writer sees Draco.

But, I wish there was. Sometimes I'm not sure I'm reading the same books as other people. Draco is a dork - a smart dork, a pretty good quidditch playing dork - but a dork. It's when people chuck obnoxious!dorky!Draco for some suave guy who reads Machiavelli that I want to scream. And it's everywhere!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, that 'worthy' thing sucks the big one as well, and it's prolly why Harmonians piss me off as much as they do, since that's all about the Union of the Worthy. I see why H/G really annoys some people if that's how they see it, ahaha. But er, I wasn't going into that whole can of worms 'cause that's a separate rant all on its own-- and yeah, I agree that he's an obnoxious dork and 95% of fanfic writers don't seem to agree/notice/care.

...Though I'd actually be pretty damn amused if there was actually one where he was a political theorist who read Machiavelli and possibly Kant, and possibly modeled on the side. I mean, that would actually make him a whole 'nother brand of stuck-up asshole :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's funny because it seems like so much of this stuff could so easily be dealt with without having to re-write it. And it would just make both boys more...normal as adults. Like, I've read plenty of stories where Harry and Ginny are divorced, or where they dated and eventually decided to just be friends. Ginny's character is written so that she could easily wind up getting over Harry--she's only 16 (almost), she's playing the field. Harry's always been someone she's wanted to date, but they could easily have a good relationship and then grow apart as adults.

And Draco's just gotten a taste of being the man of the house. He can't go back to the way he was before--but that doesn't mean becoming the complete opposite where he hates his dad. That's a step back. He can just be this generation's Malfoy who's a different person.

The stuff where Harry has to decide he hates Ginny and Draco has to decide he hates his dad that's just...it seems like post-GoF characterization, based on when they were kids and they had to run hot or cold and you couldn't really imagine them being adults who had complex motivations and did what they did for calmer, adult reasons. Back then they sort of had to be each other's one-and-only because you were writing young teen romance. If they're adults they don't have to be that way. They can have other relationships in their lives and juggle different things the way adults do. They can keep their old friends and old girlfriends (maybe they're not with them anymore, but they are still connected to them). "I HATE EVERYONE BUT YOU!" is simpler and younger--even if it's dressed up in Harry broodingly saying Ginny was a whore and Draco being so fashionable it hurts while shagging half of the wizard aristocracy.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hah, it didn't occur to me that I'm really asking people to write their supposedly 'mature' characters (since I saw this in a post-Hogwarts fic) as, in fact, more mature, and that might be what they dislike & therefore that's why they write past!H/G the way they do. I mean, I think the majority of smutty love-story writers in fandom are really writing YA romance except with a lot more smut. Or actually, y'know, a lot of times it's just plain romance novel stuff. Hmm, yeah, I suppose villifying the SO is typical fare in that case, though, I mean, that's not the only sort of relationship that gets short shrift (there's also Harry's feelings about Ron, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Draco's about his father--I mean, that's not as stereotypical as the ex stuff).

Hm. I dunno if-- I mean, does all this -have- to mean I'm talking about adult relationships with compromises and baggage? Don't we all have baggage, I mean, even at 11 we already have friends and fast loyalties and contextual prejudices as Harry showed by rejecting Malfoy on the train, right? I suppose when we grow up we become more accepting and able to deal with this baggage, but even when we're teenagers, the baggage, the web of relationships/loyalties/history exists, right?

And yeah, I like that. A Malfoy who's a different person :D That would be great :D :D

Ginny's character is written so that she could easily wind up getting over Harry
I don't know about this, though. She played around, but that was just 'pretend', according to Hermione-- she was still hung up on Harry (since she was 10??), it's just that then she decided to 'just be herself' with the useful addition of acting like she was over Harry so he'd notice her more. I mean, that is seriously what Hermione said, wasn't it? That, to me, doesn't speak of a girl who'd get over Harry any time soon. Harry-- he, on the other hand, wouldn't have too hard of a time getting over her at this point 'cause it's obvious Ron & Hermione are his real emotional anchors. But Ginny? Has spent even her so-called 'player' period secretly wishing Harry would ask her out, and when he did, even though she was dating Dean, she dropped him like bad laundry because I think he honestly meant nothing to her compared to Harry, and their relationship seemed to be on the rocks (maybe that's why she went through so many guys, just 'cause she couldn't settle on anyone but Harry & they could tell her heart wasn't in it!)

Um, but yeah, they could grow apart. On Ginny's part, I imagine there would be a lot of disillusionment and bitterness which she'd eventually get over, and Harry would be oblivious yet well-intentioned yet actually pretty self-centered as usual. Ginny wouldn't be a bitch to him 'cause I imagine she physically can't, and would always want the best for him and encourage him to go out there and seize the day like he should, whether or not it includes being gay or being the savior of the Wizarding World. I mean, I know it sounds unbelievable and saccharine and too good to be true, but that's just how this character was written as far as I can tell, and I reeeeeeeally wish more people (read: H/D writers) would notice, ARGH -.-

(I wish I was reading those on-good-terms!ex-H/G fics but suspect I'd find a million other things wrong with them. Um. Heh.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hm. I dunno if-- I mean, does all this -have- to mean I'm talking about adult relationships with compromises and baggage? Don't we all have baggage, I mean, even at 11 we already have friends and fast loyalties and contextual prejudices as Harry showed by rejecting Malfoy on the train, right?

Oh yes--but I was thinking specifically of Ginny here, so I was thinking of having old relationships that changed into something else. Really making the characters hate everyone the author wants them to hate is bad in any story and it always has been. Whatever's being done to Ginny has been probably done worse to Pansy for years. How many times has she been this raging harpy slut who just wants Draco's money and he can't stand the sight of her and thinks she's a pug just like Harry does? Same thing. We're probably just lucky Draco's never said anything specifically bad about Ginny or you'd hear Harry saying it in the stories.

I don't know about this, though. She played around, but that was just 'pretend', according to Hermione-- she was still hung up on Harry (since she was 10??), it's just that then she decided to 'just be herself' with the useful addition of acting like she was over Harry so he'd notice her more.

I think we're talking about two different things. In canon, Ginny's not going to get over Harry. But she's got, imo, plenty of things in her personality that in a different story make it easy for her to get over Harry. I mean, who cares if she never really got over her crush? We're still just talking about a a boy in high school she'd love to date. Just as JKR can make the relationship perfect just as Ginny always dreamed it could be, so could you make it something Ginny had, and it was nice, and then she got older and there were other things she wanted. Scarlett O'Hara wanted Ashley Wilkes for an awfully long time, and did a lot of things just for pretend to get his attention, but she still got over him!

Maybe it's just the quality of JKR's romance writing, but I just don't see H/G as being tha big of a thing to get over. Within canon, sure it is, because Harry's the hero and Ginny was created to be his girlfriend, but in a wider world I have no trouble believing any story where Ginny is just Harry's ex. I don't imagine her ever being really bitchy to him, myself, either, but I think even that seems like it comes from the fact that their romance just doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Actually, I am now realizing I see Draco/Pansy as being sort of similar. They have a very different relationship but I easily believe stories where they're adults and have broken up but are still friends and are in each other's corner--only I see them as more living in each other's pockets than H/G, because they were better friends.

Btw, I don't think Ginny is dating Dean when Harry asks her out. They've already broken up.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

D'oh! Me and my careless canon errors -.- I was implicitly thinking of the relationship 'starting' when Harry noticed her with Dean and they were sort of breaking up (like, I think that's when Harry was like, 'don't you touch MAH WOMAN'... maybe... *sheepish*). But of course he didn't ask her out until much angstying about Ron, ahah. *facepalm*

But yeah, I um... I do think the Ashley Wilkes thing is a great comparison, actually! Hum... I just think that's it, really-- it was really hard to get Scarlett to admit to herself she's actually over Ashley when she was and she was already in love with Rhett, and I see Ginny in a similar way, all stubborn and set on whatever she wants when she wants it (kind of like Harry, blind determination-wise). So like, even if the relationship isn't 'that great of a deal' or whatever, it's not the -relationship- in itself that Ginny's hung up on, to me, but rather the idea of it. Like, even though she seems Mary-Suish and super-together in HBP, I can't imagine she doesn't still have that relentless tendency to pine, to fixate-- she's still a very naive girl, full of absolute faith in Harry to the point where she puts his duty above her happiness (like in just accepting that he has to go off without her, unlike Ron & Hermione who're much more selfish and loyal, somehow, both at the same time-- just, more real -friends-).

So yeah, with Ginny it's just the 'awfully long time' that I was referring to; it being hard for her, whereas it's not so hard for Harry, I'd imagine-- considering how he 'got over' the deaths of Cedric and Sirius, I think he just compartmentalizes these things and would only really crack, in the end, if he lost Ron or Hermione by having one of them actually die.

I think I just see a sort of... obsessiveness and stubbornness rather than any easy-goingness in her personality. I do think it seems easy-going that she let Harry break up with her, but actually it was more on the self-sacrificing putting-up-a-front side, I think. She -seems- to be up to date with the dating people thing, but really it's a front, a conscious attempt to 'move on', etc. So... it's not that H/G is such a Big Thing as it happened but that I think of Ginny as being pretty obsessive, I guess. Um.

It's true that people have been doing it to Pansy for years :/ Meh :/ Though I've read more best-friend!Pansies than harpy!Pansies, but maybe it's just that people got it out of their system earlier. Plus Draco doesn't even have other friends except for Crabbe & Goyle unless you want to invent some for him. Come to think of it, it's hilarious 'cause in this particular fic his only friend that we've seen so far is Blaise -.-;;; Yeah, there's a reason I hate Draco's-best-friend!Blaise, and it's really fics like this.

Like... I think it's possible, also, to make Ginny disillusioned and have 'other things she wanted', but then it depends whether they just dated or had a more 'serious' relationship, because if it was 'really perfect', it'd have both their loyalty/steadfastness kick in, maybe. Argh, I really don't like adult relationships anyway, so it kind of hurts my head to think about it too long~:))

[malafede.livejournal.com]

She played around, but that was just 'pretend', according to Hermione-- she was still hung up on Harry (since she was 10??),

Maybe she will become like, suddenly sane and stop confusing hero worship with love on this scary obsessive level? Like in your post you said:

suddenly Harry only noticed Ginny 'cause she's obsessed (uh, no, sorry, he noticed her once she stopped, thank you),

She stopped because she was obsessed.

I think a lot of people complain about bad writing for Ginny but really it's just not being into Ginny and all the shiny, wholesome things Ginny stands for as much as JKR does.

You were talking with Adora about reacting more to Ginny's bitchyness than Draco's... god, there's no need to think up ulterior motives, there's perfectly sane reasons people give all the time:

1) Draco is not being a bitch to his friends
2) Draco is not the LI and/or an Example For The Young Ones

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think stuff about someone changing because they realize they're crazy/wrong is not realistic, so I'm not sure what to say except 'not likely'; also, I question your constant defaulting to that option. If you don't write characters as they are, you have to at least write characters as they are before you change them, and if people are too lost in their 'disagreement' with how the character is to write them that way, that's their own bloody problem and not mine.

She will not stop 'confusing hero worship with love' unless the writer makes her. Having the writer do that was the point of this post; you have no suggested a means, you just said 'it should happen'. Well, and I should grow wings and fly. I wanna do it now!

... I'm still waiting.

... waiting ...

....waiting... etcetc.

Anyway, I think I intrinsically think it's beside the point to judge characters in their context 'through' their larger meta-context; but this is a personal bias, so whatever. Sure, 'Draco is not an Example', but personally I don't discriminate within bitchery-- every bitch is either a bad bitch or an okay bitch to me; however, clearly this is not the case with everyone, I admit. Still annoys me.

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

I'm saying that change and growth is instead very realistic and dramatic writing-wise, and while it may be executed badly, it's still a more than good enough presime for a story. Stories move characters. Enlightenment of a sort may be the end of the journey, but it's a perfectly valid end.

I get that it annoys you, but I think it's your personal issue. There's nothing intrinsically annoying in reacting to a too strong elitarist Author's voice.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Y'know, see, what you don't remember is that -I- react to a too-strong elitist Author's voice too. Did I tell you the story of how I tried to read the first book in 2000 and threw it against the wall? I've never done that with another book. I -still- haven't finished either book 1 or book 2. I'm totally not an HP fangirl in that sense. What annoys me is always seeing the books read through that filter -because- I hate the idea; it sucks all my enjoyment out of everything and makes me want to burn the book and never talk about HP again. That's what I meant. ^^;

Anyway, growth is good, but I am bitter because everyone sucks, including me.

[loftily.livejournal.com]

I think I've been subconsciously waiting for you to make this post. Yes.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah, oh really /:) This makes me rather curious, considering I didn't think you read HP fic anymore to make you frustrated :> But I suppose it figures that this'd be a problem, it's just. I was honestly enjoying this fic and then nine chapters later, BAM. Ginny is the evil bitch from hell. *headdesk*

Also, wah, I thought your lion king icons are gone, but then I checked & they weren't & all was right with the world :)) And also, I love your Jeanette Winterson quote. ♥

[loftily.livejournal.com]

I mostly don't, which probably just means I have a lower tolerance, haha.

They are here! I just had to upload this icon because it's like, my spring icon, and I used it last spring, and I can't look at it without feeling a little lighter, and it's basically the visual manifestation of Howie Day's "Collide," which is hands down my spring song, and uh, I wanted a change, so I erased all my LJ entries and changed the layout. Do you like it? I am deeply in love with it.

♥. Oh, Jeanette Winterson. I wish she wrote HP fic. But then, that would be drastically un-canon, too.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, I thought reading less gave you a greater tolerance ('cause this is my only WIP I follow, can you believe it), and apparently it doesn't. Jeez Louise. It was seriously... seriously... actually you should read it and share my pain, here (http://www.cipher-wotr.com/fanfiction/viewstory.php?sid=1431&textsize=0&chapter=9): use find to "The following Thursday". Um. Hahah, if you want :)) ><;;;

I actually love the fonts and springy colors and stuff, they remind me of several other layouts of yours-- like, you sure use light blues a lot, eheh ♥. But! Omg I'm stuuuupid, I totally didn't notice you said you erased them all. *headdesk* EXCEPT THEY'RE STILL THERE IN THE CALENDAR OKAY :((

I really identify with that quote myself, forget H/D :))
...And now I'm curious about the song :>

[loftily.livejournal.com]

Flkdjsa I love getting two comments from you, :)))) I just private'd them until I get the time to go and copy/paste them all into a Word document for posterity. I saved all of monochromal's and cercaluna's and then deleted them. And hey, I love blues and greens. I cannot help it. Gosh, remember last year with my cercaluna layout, with the stripes? I loved it so bad. I just remembered that, just now.

What song? On my LJ? It's from "Aside" by The Weakerthans. The lyrics totally slay me.

I identify with everything Jeanette Winterson says. Well, not really. But close. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah, that makes you the first person I've seen that likes getting spam, albeit from me :)) And! I think I remember lj had this option to 'save all posts to text file' (at least several years back), and at the back of my mind I always thought eventually I'd leave fandom & get that text file, so that's why I put all those edits in my posts ('cause I always think of them as more 'permanent' than stuff I say in comments, heh). But yeah, I haven't seen any reference to that function, so it's almost like I imagined it ^^;;

Omg, I just found your post-HBP H/D post on monochromal! :D :D *glee* I love being quoted, man :)) <33 I wasn't reading lj much in the week after HBP, so now it's like, exciting! Heh. I love light greens and blues too :D :D And also purples and silvery bits and browns and reds and um... umm... :)) I really liked this (http://notquiteroyal.net/linnpuzzle/) color-scheme recently; I guess you could say I don't go for high-contrast very much :))

Oh, and I meant I was curious about 'Collide' :>

[loftily.livejournal.com]

Haha, I got all OMG HP! after HBP, then I subsided again, like I do. I'm like. A volcano, or something. I lie dormant a lot. :))

Here (http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2D06A79FZ8OVN10E8Q4JF6RZ3K) is a link to "Collide" if you want to listen. I don't think I have ever listened to a song as much as I've listened to this one. Which is kind of intense, haha, I just love it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

If you're volcano, I'm probably an underground hot-springs of some sort, one of those that you need to drill a hole in and they're always bubbling to one degree or another, but you don't notice if you don't drill. With volcanos you could find them bubbling all the time too, except it's deeper, in magma. Or.......... something :)) GOTTA LOVE WACKY NATURE METAPHORS :D :D

Man, I really love this song-- and I can see you in it, too <3. I haven't listened to it enough yet to get all the lyrics, but I do love 'out of the dark that fills you mind/ you finally find/ you & i collide' <333333333 And 'even the wrong words seem too right'. ♥. I -think- that's what he's singing anyway :-?

[seii-ryu.livejournal.com]

Ginny-bashing coming from Harry in otherwise enjoyable H/D just -really- throws me out of the fic. o_0 Yeah, and next he'll bash Molly and Ron to Draco; then he'll say Slytherins are superior, Purebloods forever and down with everything Dumbledore stood for. All it would take is some sweet sweet lovin' from Draco: they're on a first-name basis, y'know. -.-

Ahh, if only people actually thought about that before writing Harry as completely whipped two words into the fic. And you know, this applies to everyone in Harry's entourage, he'd never betray them, in words or action. Without sufficient justification, anyway.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, one of the central things I think people get wrong about Harry is just how much stock he puts in loyalty-- I mean, nearly too much stock, I think, 'cause he doesn't trust most people that much, y'know, doesn't tell people things, gets offended easily (like with Seamus and Ron in 4th year). But even though he gets offended, that's a totally different thing than betraying, 'in words or action', yeah. Maybe it's just that people don't like that about Harry, and it's inconvenient to their need to have him worship Draco and so ignore it?? I don't even know, man.

Oh, and the 'sufficient justification' is it's own problem, as I see it-- in terms of like, what people think constitutes 'sufficient'. Like, Ginny not putting out enough, or like, not appreciating his sacrifice in being with her even though OMG HE'S SO GAY, say, isn't sufficient justification. ><;;;

I really-truly think the 'whipped!Harry' is my #2 pet-peeve these days, with worthified!Malfoy always and forever reigning #1. Number 3 is probably treating Ginny or Ron or Dumbledore badly and Draco hating Lucius (though that's more pre-OoTP, these days it's usually Harry who goes over to the other side, loyalty-wise. Ahahaha, YEAH RIGHT. :)) I really shouldn't feel so smug, on the other hand.)

[seii-ryu.livejournal.com]

I think Harry's confused, first of all, because he does have a Slytherin side to him that comes in handy, but on the other hand he doesn't want to hurt anyone. And he's not going to be like Dumbledore, doing things for someone because he knows it's better for them. He'd see that as betrayal too.

^^ Relatively sufficient? Ginny monopolizing his time and then plotting devious things to separate him from Ron and Hermione...

XDD

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

See, the thing that makes it difficult to break up H/G quickly without like, Ginny dying or Harry seriously being like, stuck in a Brazilian rainforest with only a guy for company upon which point he realizes OMG GAY, it's that-- um, I think it's canon that she understands Harry's needs, y'know. Like, she would most likely know he needs space (she totally respects that! look how much space she gave him, I mean, she let him just break up with her because he has a 'lone hero' complex-- that's a lot of space). And she'd probably know all about his loyalty to his friends-- if nothing else, they're both Gryffindors, so. PLUS, there's a reason JKR made her Ron's sister and Hermione's friend-- she can't get away from them -herself-, so the point is prolly that eventually they could hang out together.

Um.

YEAH, so it's hard to do -anything- to convince me Ginny made some faux pas. It has to be another way, like death is good. I like death. And time would do the trick, but I really hate adult fic. Any quicker reason I can see would have to come from Harry, not Ginny. Like, HARRY would decide he's 'not enough' for Ginny, can't make her happy (= him being an asshole, really), like, he's 'too wounded' from the war and he goes on some quest to the rainforest to like, find himself again and this time he tricks Ron & Hermione from following him and somehow runs into Draco eventually, but the point is-- the point is that it would have to be Harry and his deluded attempts at Doing The Right Thing and basically his inability to understand how Ginny feels.

But no one wants to make Harry the bastard, and OMG HE SO TOTALLY BLOODY WOULD BE OMIFUCKINGOD. ^^;

Edit: Um, I could see how my scenario would actually seem to be 'Harry being like Dumbledore', but see, he was kinda doing that at the end of HBP, what with the 'you're better off without me, Ginny'. He can totally do that 'being lone wolf is BETTER FOR EVERYONE' thing like no one's business (remember, he tried to pull it going to the Ministry in OoTP as well), so. Baaasically, um, yeah, I think it'd be easiest not to break them up but to just separate them (again) after the war. That's why JKR did it. It's just. Breaking them up would take awhile, y'know, and you'd need a real storyline to back it up, not an excuse.

[seii-ryu.livejournal.com]

Yes exactly! After HBP pretty much a lot of things were set, character-wise. (Snape could go in both directions, but I am of the "SO NOT EVIL" tribe...) And Ginny/Harry seems to be very much a reality. Unless Ginny dies (like you said) and Harry finds that Draco really isn't that bad a fellow...

And since I have this feeling that Harry will die, Ginny will move on quietly, Ron & Hermione will go one to have 11 children- it's not much of a possibility. Though at heart I am an impossible romantic. ^^

Hmm. Good point about the end of the book. But I think this has more to do with the hero complex than active manipulation for their own good... or not.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, one hopes Harry & Draco would develop a bit more (I imagine they will), but I doubt it'll be in new and exciting directions. Hm... I agree with you that's more the hero complex, but mainly I meant that it could have the same effect-- meaning Harry could break up with Ginny because of it again, why not. Especially post-war, all hardened and withdrawn, mentally bruised and whatnot. Death isn't the only solution, just the easiest, quickest and most obvious :>

Re: Harry dying, I made a comment (http://scoradh.livejournal.com/76095.html?thread=2519359#t2519359) about this recently-- and basically I see no reason why he would, 'cause that seems like something some other writer would do, so other writer who is not JKR. The books are just... I dunno, too much like 'and this is why HARRY IS TEH WINNAR!!1'. It's because he can love, that's why he can survive, etc. Maybe most people would think that's too lame, but seriously, that's HP for ya.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

What if these people just want to show a Harry who gets that what he's doing is eye-rollingly childish, self-centered and in a word wrong?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Most people who 'get' what they're doing is wrong, if what they're doing is natural and intrinsic to their personality, realizing it's 'bad' isn't enough to change it; you're also implying a greater level of self-awareness than Harry's likely to be capable of, so you'd have to explain how/why this change happened. So basically -if- people wanted to show a different, changed Harry, they would have to do the work with him just as they have to do the work to sell a changed Draco.

And they don't do the work, not ever. I have never ever EVER seen a Harry believably changed... except maybe in Antenora's post-Hogwarts H/D but it's been so long since I've seen that. Basically, there's no 'what if', there's only: BUT THESE WRITERS FUCKING SUCK, THE END, QED.

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

I think it's perfectly alright to judge the execution, not so much the concept :) And like, how many fics handle Draco/Pansy well anyway?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, all right. It's all very theoretical; after fic after fic where -I- personally thought, 'maybe this'll change Draco in a way I could buy'-- after I tried and everyone else tried and everyone failed, yeaaaaah, I started to judge the concept to some degree, especially the implication of the likelihood/nature/method of the psychological change implied. At this point, I want something I could buy (conceptually) that's more in-depth than simply 'change for the better'.

Otherwise I'm going to start saying that people are who they are and they generally stay that way unless a number of unlikely things happen which may end up changing the character/person beyond recognition, which would be beside the point, wouldn't it? What I want is self-realization, not 'change to fit someone's idea of better'. If you're telling me he or anyone needs to change for the good of others (not himself), or for your satisfaction as a reader, -I'm- telling you that is not an approach that's likely to succeed as it is too heavy-handed and likely to twist the character out of recognition.

[scoradh.livejournal.com]

Last paragraph -- Ha.

I don't know if it's relevant, but I was reading a fic where Draco was spouting off about American wines. It was really a WTF moment, and there were many more like it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that people making Draco knowledgeable about wine and dining and crap is just as stupid as all the things you've said, and it really throws me out. I was looking around the college rests today and thinking how difficult it would be to adapt to a really posh environment, with waiters and things. Lucius is rich, sure, but they have just one house-elf as far as we know, and they're probably just middle-class rich, not aristocratically rich -- so Draco's just as much of a pleb as anyone. Mixing up 'snobbery' with 'cultural pretension' and thinking they're the same -- that annoys me.

Um.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh my GAHD, I THINK I KNOW WHICH YOU MEAN, I MEAN, IS THAT THE ONE WHERE THEY'RE IN ITALY AND HARRY'S AN AUROR ON THE RUN OMGALFKJF:LAMslakfa;lfjdlsklsfksgdajkg *coughs* But yeah. Um. YEAH. :D

I'm totally culturally unaware when it comes to class, 'cause like, in the US we pretend we only have 'poor people in trailers', 'those fucking corporate types in California' and the 'comfortably normal' :D :D :D In other words, uh, well, I don't think even the rich get to be snobbish even though nearly everyone gets to be pretentious, it's great :))

... that was totally irrelevant, but yeah. I really hate it when Draco is actually classy rather than, y'know, wishing he was, especially 'cause the writer generally wouldn't even know classy Brit-style if it bit them on the arse ;))

.......WHAT'S EVEN WORSE THOUGH. What's worse is when HARRY suddenly develops an interest in, y'know, posh living and really well-made suits-- or wine, or whatever-- (which of course he shares with Draco!!) at the ripe comfortable age of what, 22 or something. That's just kinda funny though. HAHAHA HARRY IN A SUIT. Okay, I'm done now. :>