[yet again, the special feminist hell.]
Dec. 13th, 2005 08:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaLadies and gentlemen, we've arrived at an equation: reading this post about the Hot Gimmick manga (which apparently has a much more abusive male main character than I previously realized), I've come across this comment:
Intellectual intelligence + emotional disconnection & inexperience + vulnerability = oh yes. Fictional kink.
Ahhhh. Everything just seems so much more... uh, pleasant when you make it an equation. Well, or not. But. Me? That? Yes.
It's very hard for me to really come to grips with the 'special feminist hell' of liking characters that by all rights I want to thwap. Well, I mean, I do want to thwap them, but that's why I like them. I mean, if that doesn't make sense-- er, it probably shouldn't, to most (lucky?? non-teenage-girl??) people. Er. I mean, I come across people ranting about their hated 'asshole' or 'bitch' characters all the time (whether it be Ginny or Sirius or uh, Harry); conversely, the characters most people seem to love, they praise as being 'good', generally, in whatever terms. I think people just kind of don't mention (or aren't self-aware enough to mention) when the characters they're addicted and love to the most are... well. One doesn't need to hate them to see how messed up/violent/scary/annoying(?) they are.
I think in most cases we think of kinks in terms of scenarios & pairings & uh, sex, but there's definitely also that wonderful category of 'characters'. Not as in 'characters we love to hate' but rather 'characters we should actually quarantine, but god they're hot'. And again to be more specific, I don't mean the people who like Lucius Malfoy but realize he's 'ev01' or something, because he can be theoretically 'not a nice person' or 'have the wrong philosophy' but be great to you as a potential partner (in fact, most het-shippers seem to think he loves Narcissa and most slashers seem to think he's-- uh, well, generally I think it's 'he loves Narcissa but he has manly needs').
It's different altogether when the character is actually v. likely to be an asshole to you, yes you dear reader, and probably anyone of your gender or the other who was unlucky enough to be involved with him.
It really only bothers me, though, when people assume liking this character = approving of their behavior in real life. But then, every time (nearly every. single. time.) I see someone complain about a character's behavior, there's a 'this would be Really Bad If It Were Real' parallel involved. Perhaps that's only natural and also the basic appeal of (realistic?) fiction-- to be a commentary on our lives; at the same time, there's a lot of leeway sometimes given to 'kink' when it involves types of sexuality or 'crack' gimmicks like wings or mpreg that usually isn't given to, well, actual normal human interactions. Probably because without realism on -that- level, the story just isn't relatable or interesting to most people.
I think most 'typical' shoujo/Harlequin-romance type stories are really a type of kink-- they're basically untranslatable to 'real' terms no matter how much they try to pretend they are. You can talk till you're blue in the face about how this reminds you of the relationship Joe and Jill had, but in the end it's just not the same because in fiction, that time he hit Jill and was a total asshole and never mentioned it later and she didn't leave him and you wanted to just deck them both and yell at them to move to different states? In (girl) fiction, he probably cried into his pillow and felt lonely and awful and didn't know why, and he Really Loved Her and eventually got to see the Error of His Ways, and admitted he Wasn't Worthy of Her, and, and and.... She wasn't scarred for life, and she didn't have an abortion when she was seventeen, and he didn't fall in love with a cheerleader from Memphis a year later, and he didn't just use her for sex and lie to her, and he didn't develop a bald patch at 25, and he didn't get that job at 7Eleven that went on and on even though he kept saying he'll apply for college soon, etcetc.
I think the one unifying thing about stories with these guys, no matter how 'realistic' they are or claim to be in any other aspect, is that they are utterly divorced from any reality where the guy isn't worth it because he's just mediocre, basically. Whatever else he is, he's not that. He's gorgeous and rich, or he's got special powers and he's Really Cute, or he's just got this Attitude that lights up a room and oozes sex appeal down several highways into a whole slew of neighboring states-- or maybe he just loves you. Not just says he loves you (because he probably doesn't, unlike that good-for-nothing 'real life' boyfriend who probably did and didn't mean it, which is the Worst Sin Ever)-- but Really Loves You. But whatever it is, it's BIG. Larger than life. Because the thing these stories imply by omission, basically, is that Life? Life Sucks.
That's the major conceit-- the major thing any feminist reading would overlook. You have to take this as a given, if you're going to be a happy reader: That Guy Needs Work. It's like buying one of those run-down Victorian houses that leak, stink, have no working bathroom, air-conditioning or natural ventilation. But you just look at it and -know- (you KNOW) it's secretly absolutely gorgeous, and you (only you!) have the genius-- the vision-- the balls to see it through to its natural shine. Or possibly your grandma died and left you with the house and you have no place to go and it's really not that bad once you put some flowers up... really.... (In real life, this works a lot better with houses than people, most especially insecure assholes.)
Anyway, I dunno what my point is. I just think that any ethical or feminist (which is another way of saying 'ethical', isn't it) reading is going to have to take into account that by its very nature, this type of story exists outside all that. Now, either you can swallow it or you can't (and often enough I can't swallow it, personally, especially when the power-play gets too skewed in the direction of Big Dom Man and Little Needy Sub-- way too oily, upsets my stomach). But at the same time, applying ethical readings to it is like poking a child with sticks or something-- of course it'll leave bruises. It's not made for defensive maneuvers, and you'll squash it if you poke too hard.
That said-- sometimes coming across these type of dynamics in fics where I wouldn't expect them turns me way, way WAY OFF (sayyyyy... Harry/Draco fanfics where Draco is Big Strong Dom-- GAG ME NOW!!1). But it turns me off and I found it OOC and wrong for the characters, but in that 'they'd never do that' way rather than 'they shouldn't do that'. But then I'm oversensitive to the word 'should'... just a smidgeon or two....
Intellectual intelligence + emotional disconnection & inexperience + vulnerability = oh yes. Fictional kink.
Ahhhh. Everything just seems so much more... uh, pleasant when you make it an equation. Well, or not. But. Me? That? Yes.
It's very hard for me to really come to grips with the 'special feminist hell' of liking characters that by all rights I want to thwap. Well, I mean, I do want to thwap them, but that's why I like them. I mean, if that doesn't make sense-- er, it probably shouldn't, to most (lucky?? non-teenage-girl??) people. Er. I mean, I come across people ranting about their hated 'asshole' or 'bitch' characters all the time (whether it be Ginny or Sirius or uh, Harry); conversely, the characters most people seem to love, they praise as being 'good', generally, in whatever terms. I think people just kind of don't mention (or aren't self-aware enough to mention) when the characters they're addicted and love to the most are... well. One doesn't need to hate them to see how messed up/violent/scary/annoying(?) they are.
I think in most cases we think of kinks in terms of scenarios & pairings & uh, sex, but there's definitely also that wonderful category of 'characters'. Not as in 'characters we love to hate' but rather 'characters we should actually quarantine, but god they're hot'. And again to be more specific, I don't mean the people who like Lucius Malfoy but realize he's 'ev01' or something, because he can be theoretically 'not a nice person' or 'have the wrong philosophy' but be great to you as a potential partner (in fact, most het-shippers seem to think he loves Narcissa and most slashers seem to think he's-- uh, well, generally I think it's 'he loves Narcissa but he has manly needs').
It's different altogether when the character is actually v. likely to be an asshole to you, yes you dear reader, and probably anyone of your gender or the other who was unlucky enough to be involved with him.
It really only bothers me, though, when people assume liking this character = approving of their behavior in real life. But then, every time (nearly every. single. time.) I see someone complain about a character's behavior, there's a 'this would be Really Bad If It Were Real' parallel involved. Perhaps that's only natural and also the basic appeal of (realistic?) fiction-- to be a commentary on our lives; at the same time, there's a lot of leeway sometimes given to 'kink' when it involves types of sexuality or 'crack' gimmicks like wings or mpreg that usually isn't given to, well, actual normal human interactions. Probably because without realism on -that- level, the story just isn't relatable or interesting to most people.
I think most 'typical' shoujo/Harlequin-romance type stories are really a type of kink-- they're basically untranslatable to 'real' terms no matter how much they try to pretend they are. You can talk till you're blue in the face about how this reminds you of the relationship Joe and Jill had, but in the end it's just not the same because in fiction, that time he hit Jill and was a total asshole and never mentioned it later and she didn't leave him and you wanted to just deck them both and yell at them to move to different states? In (girl) fiction, he probably cried into his pillow and felt lonely and awful and didn't know why, and he Really Loved Her and eventually got to see the Error of His Ways, and admitted he Wasn't Worthy of Her, and, and and.... She wasn't scarred for life, and she didn't have an abortion when she was seventeen, and he didn't fall in love with a cheerleader from Memphis a year later, and he didn't just use her for sex and lie to her, and he didn't develop a bald patch at 25, and he didn't get that job at 7Eleven that went on and on even though he kept saying he'll apply for college soon, etcetc.
I think the one unifying thing about stories with these guys, no matter how 'realistic' they are or claim to be in any other aspect, is that they are utterly divorced from any reality where the guy isn't worth it because he's just mediocre, basically. Whatever else he is, he's not that. He's gorgeous and rich, or he's got special powers and he's Really Cute, or he's just got this Attitude that lights up a room and oozes sex appeal down several highways into a whole slew of neighboring states-- or maybe he just loves you. Not just says he loves you (because he probably doesn't, unlike that good-for-nothing 'real life' boyfriend who probably did and didn't mean it, which is the Worst Sin Ever)-- but Really Loves You. But whatever it is, it's BIG. Larger than life. Because the thing these stories imply by omission, basically, is that Life? Life Sucks.
That's the major conceit-- the major thing any feminist reading would overlook. You have to take this as a given, if you're going to be a happy reader: That Guy Needs Work. It's like buying one of those run-down Victorian houses that leak, stink, have no working bathroom, air-conditioning or natural ventilation. But you just look at it and -know- (you KNOW) it's secretly absolutely gorgeous, and you (only you!) have the genius-- the vision-- the balls to see it through to its natural shine. Or possibly your grandma died and left you with the house and you have no place to go and it's really not that bad once you put some flowers up... really.... (In real life, this works a lot better with houses than people, most especially insecure assholes.)
Anyway, I dunno what my point is. I just think that any ethical or feminist (which is another way of saying 'ethical', isn't it) reading is going to have to take into account that by its very nature, this type of story exists outside all that. Now, either you can swallow it or you can't (and often enough I can't swallow it, personally, especially when the power-play gets too skewed in the direction of Big Dom Man and Little Needy Sub-- way too oily, upsets my stomach). But at the same time, applying ethical readings to it is like poking a child with sticks or something-- of course it'll leave bruises. It's not made for defensive maneuvers, and you'll squash it if you poke too hard.
That said-- sometimes coming across these type of dynamics in fics where I wouldn't expect them turns me way, way WAY OFF (sayyyyy... Harry/Draco fanfics where Draco is Big Strong Dom-- GAG ME NOW!!1). But it turns me off and I found it OOC and wrong for the characters, but in that 'they'd never do that' way rather than 'they shouldn't do that'. But then I'm oversensitive to the word 'should'... just a smidgeon or two....
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about.
Date: 2005-12-13 07:37 pm (UTC)Yours Truly,
Andrew Rose
andrewgabrielrose@gmail.com
!!!!!!!
Date: 2005-12-14 03:20 am (UTC)I am confused!! Was this on purpose? A random comment? Meep??
But!
...well, yes, me neither........
*bashful*
Re: !!!!!!!
Date: 2005-12-17 04:35 am (UTC)Y.T.
Andrew
you know, andrewgabrielrose@gmail.com
no subject
Date: 2005-12-13 09:33 pm (UTC)Hee! ilu :D
Harry/Draco fanfics where Draco is Big Strong Dom
AHAHAHAHAHA EW. Uh, I mean, I am not mocking your pain! Most certainly not! :P I am commiserating!
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 04:03 am (UTC)...Of course, it's nothing to my PANE (and ANGEST) when the Big Strong Dom in question is also Smooth, newly Long-haired, and has a tendency to smoke long thin white cigarettes after bed... -.-
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 04:48 am (UTC)(Eeehee! ♥)
Smooth, newly Long-haired, and has a tendency to smoke long thin white cigarettes after bed...
Clearly what you have managed to do is hack your way into my brain and steal my Big Long Awesome Fic idea. My ode to Draco's muscles, it is worthless now, and I am full of despair, for this Big Long Awesome Fic has been my dream all these many months. Godfuckingdamnit, now what am I going to write about?! :P
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 05:03 am (UTC)...Well, there's always the fic where he wears these nice long
pantyhosenightie... this nice fluffy, manly bathrobe, maybe with a pink tie dangling by the sides (as he sneers and ripples his manly muscles), and does his best come-hither look as Harry cowers by the pillows, hugging his knees to his chest and whispering, 'be gentle, my love...!..!!'....okay, now I've seriously disturbed myself, but it was all for the sake of (your) Arte!!1
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 05:16 am (UTC)!!! Are you serious? Oh, this sounds awesome. And by awesome I mean...well. Uh.
Speaking of! Kinda! I had the greatest crackfic idea the other day! Well, I sort of daydreamed it, I think. And I was like, I MUST TELL REENA SO THAT WE CAN COMPOSE IT IN ALL ITS RESPLENDENT GLORY. And then I forgot. D: Life so sad. I am trying to recall it! Trying with all the might of my tiny brains!
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 05:36 am (UTC)I wish you would recall it! For of all things, I can only write crackfic at the drop of a hat these days. Woe. But it's just not as fun writing it into the void, somehow. It's been too long, man. TOO LONG. Damn, school is almost over for the semester, right?? WE MUST DO SOMETHING!! I could be Harry & you could be Draco! Or! The other way around! But just-- something! *makes sneer!pout*
...bonus+++ points if pantyhose and/or frilly pink ties are involved. And possibly someone speaking with a drawling fake French accent (not Fleur, ahaha). Harry could be virginal and delicate, needing sex to complete his last rite to defeat Voldemort and/or also take over the world himself... Ginny could be his pimp... Ron could have a coronary... Hermione could give safe sex pointers... Draco could develop an addiction to yaoi manga smut, and so on and so forth...
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 05:52 am (UTC)OMG I AM THINKING. A LOT. TRYING TO REMEMBER. I feel that I shall be successful! Soon! It's coming back to me slowly, so slowly, like a long-lost dream. The mists are lifting and soon Paradise shall be revealed unto me! What the fuck am I talking about? Huh.
ANYWAY. Yes. School is done, yo! I turned in my last essay this morning. :D I AM SO FULL OF GLEE YOU HAVE NO IDEA. So I am almost entirely free for...uh...3 1/2 weeks. And we can do whatever you like! I am easy. To work with. :D
Dude, you had to say about the French accent, didn't you. Because when I read that, I was listening to Lady Marmalade (I LIKE THE MOULIN ROUGE SOUNDTRACK OKAY) and I DIED OF LAUGHTER. I can so picture Harry playing the tart now that you said that. AHAHAHA OMG. He'd be all, "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir?" And Draco'd be like, "HELLS YEAH."
...Wow, we are fucking brilliant, we are. :P
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 06:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 03:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 04:23 am (UTC)Other than that, it was just. Yikes.
...Hee! Icon! :>
no subject
Date: 2005-12-14 10:52 pm (UTC)escape not illumination
Date: 2005-12-15 08:49 am (UTC)Except that guy in Hot Gimmick doesn't have the "vulnerability" thing. Thus: he=lamer. And I rooting for the brother. Though... the chick is annoying, so perhaps she can stay with her "asshole down the block" shoujo hero and her brother can segue nicely into a BL series where a spunky little uke will heal his abused heart.
I think most 'typical' shoujo/Harlequin-romance type stories are really a type of kink-- they're basically untranslatable to 'real' terms no matter how much they try to pretend they are.
I'd say genre convention rather than kink, since I think kink implies sex and is a little narrow, but I basically agree. Female-oriented genre books just tend to have the conventions emotional rather than plot-related (vs mysteries), so I think they can be harder to pin down... and easier to dismiss as "bad/lazy writing." Especially easy when they seem so "real"... no fairies, no government conspiracies, but they're just as much about tapping into unrealistic fantasy as those more obviously "unrealistic" stories are.
And now I will attempt to look smart by quoting Oscar Wilde: "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written." :D Though, really, it's more about these genre books going for escape, not illumination.
I think the one unifying thing about stories with these guys, no matter how 'realistic' they are or claim to be in any other aspect, is that they are utterly divorced from any reality where the guy isn't worth it because he's just mediocre, basically.
Nuh uh! There totally *is* a character like that: he's the non-evil rival! He's always the ex-boyfriend or the current boyfriend, or the guy who likes her who she doesn't like back, or the guy she 1st thinks she might like, until discovering the true love/e/power of the vibrant hero.
A recent episode of Bones had a perfect example of this character in the form of an ex. Hanzawa Rui in HYD (though... she might end up with him?...nah). Ashley in Gone with the Wind... etc etc And this is why I'm pretty sure the brother is 100% destined to lose in Hot Gimmick: he is obviously filling the non-evil rival slot and is not extreme/exciting enough to win the heroine. (And then in Sense and Sensibility, it's turned on its head, because she was actually writing a real novel, and not just genre escape, and the dashing guy turns out to be a putz and the boring, reliable guy is the winner. I'm sure novels intending to be of Moral Benefit to young girls also contain this Meaningful Lesson. But books with a "moral lesson" are kinda like those anti-drug ads--it just makes you wanna go out and do the opposite of what the clumsy propaganda is selling.)
Re: escape not illumination
Date: 2005-12-15 11:49 am (UTC)Oh yeah! Speaking of the 'non-evil rival' (spot-on, btw!), I'm now also remembering those 'sleazy' guys you have who're usually the background nose, the type that'd grope the girl randomly so she'd have to be saved by the hero, or would leer and snigger and make rude remarks (without really having a repeat appearance). So I guess it's not a divorce from that reality so much as a line being drawn between 'this' (the good thing) and 'that' (what it's -not-). In that sense, I suppose the story would need it for contrast purposes.
I know what you mean about rooting for the brother, though-- he does inspire sympathy because he -pines- (there was that quote I had recently about how we always sympathize for the One Who Longs!), whereas Ryouki is too smug/self-assured and not smacked down enough. I usually don't sympathize with the 'non-evil rival' character 'cause he's usually either weak-spined or boring somehow-- the brother in Hot Gimmick is unique 'cause he's got a spine and some personality, just isn't showy-- so yeah, he can actually be the star of his own show much more easily than usual. Still though, he hasn't got enough -spine- (ie, aggression but really desire to seriously go after what he wants) to win, rather than only not being extreme/exciting enough. I think you're allowed to be boring/reliable if you're stubborn/dedicated/driven as well-- this is a common uke type in yaoi, or at least in Haru wo Daiteita (HAHAHAHAHA), I'd say Iwaki's the stable/reliable/stubborn type (they're usually paired with the fiery/stubborn/excitable/childish ones, though).
Yeah, it really all depends on the dynamic, I think. The dependable-and-quietly-rocklike-type guy actually looks more attractive if the heroine is headstrong and over the top (that is, he makes her less shallow). So it's not -always- just in non-genre books, I -think-. I think stubbornness is important, though-- like the horse that isn't flashy/gorgeous or fast, but has great endurance, y'know? Without endurance, you're hopeless if you're that type, ahahahahaha. You have to wait out the crush on the dashing guy and show your true colors in the end when she swoons into your arms!! AHAHAH *coughs*
You're right about the 'emotional conventions'-- I guess the people who're really 'omg, anti-feminism!!1' about this stuff are the ones who don't have enough experience reading it and/or actually like shounen/male-centric adventure stuff better. Which actually has its own little set of stupid little emotional conventions which aren't quite as obvious, maybe (and more odious to me personally 'cause, y'know, foreign matter!! OBEDIENT GIRLS WITH BIG BOOBS MUST DIE!! etcetc)
In conclusion, you totally look more smart than me 'cause you're way more coherent, you really are~:))
Re: escape not illumination
Date: 2005-12-17 09:24 am (UTC)Yeah maybe Ryouki needs some serious pining. He just doesn't seem to care about her enough or be awesome enough to make up for his jerkiness (ie be an awesome fighter, best pianist in Japan, own his own island etc etc). I proclaim him mediocre genetic material overall. Though for the soppy heroine, he's still a step up, but... *yawns*
I kinda like the stolid, dependable guys. I mean, my fav CLAMP character is Touya (card captor Sakura's bro). He's just so... dependable and working many jobs and awesome at everything and kinda quiet and it makes me want to be a 13-year-old and type in many many hearts <33333<3333333<<33333