[fic ramble #20983409]
Dec. 6th, 2005 01:17 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaI think this post by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-syndicated.gif)
worldserpent verbalizes my confused feelings about the two approaches to literature (quality vs. entertainment, or 'status' vs. 'contract'), and why one has so much more dominance in fandom. More specifically why the search for 'quality' and 'ICness' in fanfic is basically futile, like,
people adopting extreme Status attitudes (oh noes, why do people ignore this great work even if it's in a genre/pairing they have no interest in; fanfiction is insufficiently citius altius fortius (faster higher stronger); writers are not sufficiently into busting the dominant paradigms! Also all of the meta which seems to have a subtext of "eat your peas."
Also, so correctly: a broken Contract induces rage. Exhibit A, crazed Harmonians.
I'm sufficiently humbled: I'm very sorry if I've ever seemed to imply people should eat their peas (as I fear I have). Honestly, I hate peas. I just want my favorite cake, but realize I should bloody well make it myself. Well, I tried, though in the end it was just kind of glum having a party of one.
Anyway, the point was that this quite natural focus on 'contract' drove her in particular to stop reading fanfic-- and I think that's what it's done to me too. I -love- fanfic for the way it approaches writing (communal, multi-layered, nonlinear), but I can't stand wading through the dreck and having my own personal 'contract' broken so repeatedly. In the end, I'm no better than a 'crazed Harmonian' with all my ranty rage about fanon!Draco, people not writing 'serious' H/D and so on and so forth. I mean, sane people just stop reading fic, and I guess that's what I did in the end-- but at first it really feels like such a -betrayal- that no one's writing what -I- want to read; it's ridiculous, and a clear sign I'm reading for 'contract' (my own entertainment) moreso than quality, and should really try harder not to confuse the two, even if it's true I read for quality first (I thought).
Actually, I don't think I do; I'm mainly a (fantasy/romance) genre reader, and I have no great interest in reading 'great' works of literature just because they're great. It's always been that way. With my family being old-school intellectuals, I'll probably never get over the guilt with that, but fact remains I've always read for pleasure first and I basically don't care how 'good' the book is if it's boring. On the other hand, I'm incredibly picky about the things I like, and become extremely focused and narrow in what my 'contract' is. Even so, I don't think I'll ever narrow so far as to read for 'status', because that's just joyless, and to me reading is joy.
Actually, I read for quality in the -beginning- of fandom much more-- just a different sort of quality, perhaps. I used to be nearly 100% style-centric, and now I'm probably something like 85% content-centric, which is ridiculously high & hard to meet. It's all rather contradictory but such is (my) life.
~~
Also, I reread this old post on how all women love a fascist (ie, an 'Alpha Bastard' and/or Byronic Hero) and it struck me in relation to my recent post on Tsukasa from Hana Yori Dango, who's pretty classic in that respect. There was a comment on that saying that they prefer 'the witty, dangerous, heart-on-his/her-sleeve rogue'.
It made me think that this too is a very old literary/romance type, though usually not the one who Gets the Girl (when he does, like in the shoujo manga `Mars' or, well, in Robin Hood), I think I'm somewhat surprised, but usually this is also explained by there being a lack of the brooding Dark Knight. The girl -always- picks the Dark Knight in traditional romance, at least.
I was also thinking that my attraction to the Dark Knight is very different from liking them because they're such fascist bastards, even though I like to keep harping on their angsty bastard qualities with a sort of glee. I certainly like people's dark sides, but I suspect this is why more reasonable people than I dislike them or even hate them. And often enough, the girls who like this 'bad boy' character will say they'll dump them if they turn 'good' or 'gooey' or vulnerable (like the William bits in Spike), whereas my approach is totally different. I think the 'wounded boy' parts in this archetype are the most vital and interesting parts, and without them you wouldn't have a real person. At the same time, I'm not in favor of the girl 'taming' or totally (unrealistically) changing them but rather them finding some measure of self-acceptance or peace through loving & being loved, which isn't all that far-fetched.
Basically, I think inside every 'fascist Alpha Bastard' Byronic type there's a wounded, rather pathetic little boy who needs love. Believe me, I'm saying this with a total straight face, too. I'm not saying they're cuddly bunnies on the inside, I'm saying they're wounded, damaged people, usually messed up sometime in their childhood. I don't think a properly empathetic lover would be delusional to think they can help. Though I have to admit most romances written about this are highly unrealistic in execution.
Also, this made me think of a color classification system of sorts for the dominant male romance archetypes, where the Brooding Byronic Bastard would be the 'black' type (ie, Snape & Harry), the Dashing Dangerous Wit would be 'red' (ie, Sirius and James, probably Draco) and then there's 'silver' for the Brilliant but Shy Gentleman (ie, Remus). (Alpha/beta/theta??) There are probably others I can't think of at the moment. :>
And I feel I should mention that these types are rather fluid and often cross over in terms of actual characters. For instance, you can't say that 'violent temper' is a property of the 'red' type alone (I think the brooding 'black' type is just more likely to uh, hold on to grudges, perhaps). Similarly, brilliance can be a characteristic of any type of personality, it's just that it defines the 'silver' type's behavior most heavily, in the sense that they tend to be more passive or non-emotional in a different way that the 'black' type would be-- meaning they're not cold (and repressing their red-hotness, mmm) but rather -cool-, if that makes sense. Though the cool 'silver' type is just repressing things differently a lot of times, etcetc :D
EDIT - Anyway, because I felt I did need to elaborate on the types beyond just a few examples, here:
Black = the 'bitter', neurotic, angsty type. Given to outbursts of anger/rage/violence if pushed but generally controlled and/or distant. Possibly bored or disillusioned with either most people or life in general. Usually v. intelligent but not quite intellectual per se. Very dominant to the point of being near-sociopathic in interactions with others, though capable of putting on a good show; it's more natural to just intimidate people, though. Has very few (to none) good close friends; is generally overly close/attached to some childhood female figure and/or has a complex. Is not talkative and represses quite a lot of emotion. May be sexually promiscuous but in a desultory way-- generally avoids too much contact. Without 'help' or intervention, can become psychotic and totally separated from humanity-- sadism kicks in. With help or someone to lean on/let off steam with/talk with, can gradually soften and become more of a leader, someone who actually wants to take care of/protect people. One might say that overall, this type is just repressing the fact that he's 'red' on the inside, so to speak, but that's what gives him that somewhat mysterious quality.
To be quite disgustingly meta, you could say he would be a manifestation of Ego; of Will. His willfulness and stubbornness define him.
Red = the witty, charming yet often violent playboy type. Tends to hide his emotions a lot better while also wearing his heart on his sleeve in a more obvious fashion-- meaning, you can see his moods pretty well, but you can't get really close very easily either, and he has a ferocious temper that's pretty easily triggered. Does tend to have a group of close friends and a whole slew of acquaintances, and treats women very well as a rule and likes to be treated well in return. Tends to have a style of 'no commitments & no attachments' & yet is so charming and funny he gets away with it. Likes to affect a happy-go-lucky attitude that hides a darker side which is slow-moving and intense, which even he may not be aware of. Is very hard to catch off-guard and will swear that being loyal and devoted is completely out of his nature, but it is actually his true nature, it's just that he's more multi-focused and genuinely interested in people than the 'black' type. Pretty addicted to danger & excitement of all sorts, and tends to have a very good way with words.
Is definitely representative of Id on a very meta level; I like to associate this archetype with Mars lately. The god of War.
Silver = harder to define, as it is a rarer and more elusive type of character. Tends to be quiet and keeps to himself, generally observing and not causing a scene. Is the 'calm one' whom many dismiss and don't treat as a danger (wrongly). Can be rather manipulative and casual about it, but is generally dedicated to whatever ideal/ethical system he follows. Won't let himself be seen or understood very easily, but doesn't bluster or bluff with coldness or violence. Is polite to a fault & can smile insincerely in many different ways; is a master of insulting you so subtly you don't know you've been insulted.
Rather manipulative and generally emotionally weak, but thinks he's more mature than everyone around him. Tends to fall for fiery, emotional types that drive him insane, but also get him to open up and be more spontaneous and genuine. Another characteristic is a tendency to give things up easily and forgive too easily while really keeping a score on some level at the same time. Is a gentleman on principle rather than any sort of desire to impress or be liked by everybody-- he often wants to be liked by those he finds worthy, and the rest just to fall into place and not bother him. Has the ability to get along with anyone and makes few enemies, but when he does, it's forever.
Might be seen as a manifestation of the superego in some ways. Sort of.
~~
I just read this blog entry which gave me an interesting bit of perspective, being a tribute to all the 'nice' girls out there and the guys who complain that all the girls want mean guys & not them, whereas really they don't give the nice girls the time of day either. And I always feel chagrined when I remember this basic reality of existence, and how I always pair the nice ones with the mean ones and don't blink twice, and how that's just perpetuating the cycle of misunderstanding & misery in real life, because people have these sorts of unrealistic expectations of their actual love-lives.
And all I can say is that I -know-, of course I know (being a nice girl myself, mostly) that it's not just the mean and tortured ones that need love, and of course I don't think being closed-off and emotionally immature should mean you can get away with anything (ie, emotional abuse). Life isn't fiction, as they say.
worldserpent verbalizes my confused feelings about the two approaches to literature (quality vs. entertainment, or 'status' vs. 'contract'), and why one has so much more dominance in fandom. More specifically why the search for 'quality' and 'ICness' in fanfic is basically futile, like, people adopting extreme Status attitudes (oh noes, why do people ignore this great work even if it's in a genre/pairing they have no interest in; fanfiction is insufficiently citius altius fortius (faster higher stronger); writers are not sufficiently into busting the dominant paradigms! Also all of the meta which seems to have a subtext of "eat your peas."
Also, so correctly: a broken Contract induces rage. Exhibit A, crazed Harmonians.
I'm sufficiently humbled: I'm very sorry if I've ever seemed to imply people should eat their peas (as I fear I have). Honestly, I hate peas. I just want my favorite cake, but realize I should bloody well make it myself. Well, I tried, though in the end it was just kind of glum having a party of one.
Anyway, the point was that this quite natural focus on 'contract' drove her in particular to stop reading fanfic-- and I think that's what it's done to me too. I -love- fanfic for the way it approaches writing (communal, multi-layered, nonlinear), but I can't stand wading through the dreck and having my own personal 'contract' broken so repeatedly. In the end, I'm no better than a 'crazed Harmonian' with all my ranty rage about fanon!Draco, people not writing 'serious' H/D and so on and so forth. I mean, sane people just stop reading fic, and I guess that's what I did in the end-- but at first it really feels like such a -betrayal- that no one's writing what -I- want to read; it's ridiculous, and a clear sign I'm reading for 'contract' (my own entertainment) moreso than quality, and should really try harder not to confuse the two, even if it's true I read for quality first (I thought).
Actually, I don't think I do; I'm mainly a (fantasy/romance) genre reader, and I have no great interest in reading 'great' works of literature just because they're great. It's always been that way. With my family being old-school intellectuals, I'll probably never get over the guilt with that, but fact remains I've always read for pleasure first and I basically don't care how 'good' the book is if it's boring. On the other hand, I'm incredibly picky about the things I like, and become extremely focused and narrow in what my 'contract' is. Even so, I don't think I'll ever narrow so far as to read for 'status', because that's just joyless, and to me reading is joy.
Actually, I read for quality in the -beginning- of fandom much more-- just a different sort of quality, perhaps. I used to be nearly 100% style-centric, and now I'm probably something like 85% content-centric, which is ridiculously high & hard to meet. It's all rather contradictory but such is (my) life.
~~
Also, I reread this old post on how all women love a fascist (ie, an 'Alpha Bastard' and/or Byronic Hero) and it struck me in relation to my recent post on Tsukasa from Hana Yori Dango, who's pretty classic in that respect. There was a comment on that saying that they prefer 'the witty, dangerous, heart-on-his/her-sleeve rogue'.
It made me think that this too is a very old literary/romance type, though usually not the one who Gets the Girl (when he does, like in the shoujo manga `Mars' or, well, in Robin Hood), I think I'm somewhat surprised, but usually this is also explained by there being a lack of the brooding Dark Knight. The girl -always- picks the Dark Knight in traditional romance, at least.
I was also thinking that my attraction to the Dark Knight is very different from liking them because they're such fascist bastards, even though I like to keep harping on their angsty bastard qualities with a sort of glee. I certainly like people's dark sides, but I suspect this is why more reasonable people than I dislike them or even hate them. And often enough, the girls who like this 'bad boy' character will say they'll dump them if they turn 'good' or 'gooey' or vulnerable (like the William bits in Spike), whereas my approach is totally different. I think the 'wounded boy' parts in this archetype are the most vital and interesting parts, and without them you wouldn't have a real person. At the same time, I'm not in favor of the girl 'taming' or totally (unrealistically) changing them but rather them finding some measure of self-acceptance or peace through loving & being loved, which isn't all that far-fetched.
Basically, I think inside every 'fascist Alpha Bastard' Byronic type there's a wounded, rather pathetic little boy who needs love. Believe me, I'm saying this with a total straight face, too. I'm not saying they're cuddly bunnies on the inside, I'm saying they're wounded, damaged people, usually messed up sometime in their childhood. I don't think a properly empathetic lover would be delusional to think they can help. Though I have to admit most romances written about this are highly unrealistic in execution.
Also, this made me think of a color classification system of sorts for the dominant male romance archetypes, where the Brooding Byronic Bastard would be the 'black' type (ie, Snape & Harry), the Dashing Dangerous Wit would be 'red' (ie, Sirius and James, probably Draco) and then there's 'silver' for the Brilliant but Shy Gentleman (ie, Remus). (Alpha/beta/theta??) There are probably others I can't think of at the moment. :>
And I feel I should mention that these types are rather fluid and often cross over in terms of actual characters. For instance, you can't say that 'violent temper' is a property of the 'red' type alone (I think the brooding 'black' type is just more likely to uh, hold on to grudges, perhaps). Similarly, brilliance can be a characteristic of any type of personality, it's just that it defines the 'silver' type's behavior most heavily, in the sense that they tend to be more passive or non-emotional in a different way that the 'black' type would be-- meaning they're not cold (and repressing their red-hotness, mmm) but rather -cool-, if that makes sense. Though the cool 'silver' type is just repressing things differently a lot of times, etcetc :D
EDIT - Anyway, because I felt I did need to elaborate on the types beyond just a few examples, here:
Black = the 'bitter', neurotic, angsty type. Given to outbursts of anger/rage/violence if pushed but generally controlled and/or distant. Possibly bored or disillusioned with either most people or life in general. Usually v. intelligent but not quite intellectual per se. Very dominant to the point of being near-sociopathic in interactions with others, though capable of putting on a good show; it's more natural to just intimidate people, though. Has very few (to none) good close friends; is generally overly close/attached to some childhood female figure and/or has a complex. Is not talkative and represses quite a lot of emotion. May be sexually promiscuous but in a desultory way-- generally avoids too much contact. Without 'help' or intervention, can become psychotic and totally separated from humanity-- sadism kicks in. With help or someone to lean on/let off steam with/talk with, can gradually soften and become more of a leader, someone who actually wants to take care of/protect people. One might say that overall, this type is just repressing the fact that he's 'red' on the inside, so to speak, but that's what gives him that somewhat mysterious quality.
To be quite disgustingly meta, you could say he would be a manifestation of Ego; of Will. His willfulness and stubbornness define him.
Red = the witty, charming yet often violent playboy type. Tends to hide his emotions a lot better while also wearing his heart on his sleeve in a more obvious fashion-- meaning, you can see his moods pretty well, but you can't get really close very easily either, and he has a ferocious temper that's pretty easily triggered. Does tend to have a group of close friends and a whole slew of acquaintances, and treats women very well as a rule and likes to be treated well in return. Tends to have a style of 'no commitments & no attachments' & yet is so charming and funny he gets away with it. Likes to affect a happy-go-lucky attitude that hides a darker side which is slow-moving and intense, which even he may not be aware of. Is very hard to catch off-guard and will swear that being loyal and devoted is completely out of his nature, but it is actually his true nature, it's just that he's more multi-focused and genuinely interested in people than the 'black' type. Pretty addicted to danger & excitement of all sorts, and tends to have a very good way with words.
Is definitely representative of Id on a very meta level; I like to associate this archetype with Mars lately. The god of War.
Silver = harder to define, as it is a rarer and more elusive type of character. Tends to be quiet and keeps to himself, generally observing and not causing a scene. Is the 'calm one' whom many dismiss and don't treat as a danger (wrongly). Can be rather manipulative and casual about it, but is generally dedicated to whatever ideal/ethical system he follows. Won't let himself be seen or understood very easily, but doesn't bluster or bluff with coldness or violence. Is polite to a fault & can smile insincerely in many different ways; is a master of insulting you so subtly you don't know you've been insulted.
Rather manipulative and generally emotionally weak, but thinks he's more mature than everyone around him. Tends to fall for fiery, emotional types that drive him insane, but also get him to open up and be more spontaneous and genuine. Another characteristic is a tendency to give things up easily and forgive too easily while really keeping a score on some level at the same time. Is a gentleman on principle rather than any sort of desire to impress or be liked by everybody-- he often wants to be liked by those he finds worthy, and the rest just to fall into place and not bother him. Has the ability to get along with anyone and makes few enemies, but when he does, it's forever.
Might be seen as a manifestation of the superego in some ways. Sort of.
~~
I just read this blog entry which gave me an interesting bit of perspective, being a tribute to all the 'nice' girls out there and the guys who complain that all the girls want mean guys & not them, whereas really they don't give the nice girls the time of day either. And I always feel chagrined when I remember this basic reality of existence, and how I always pair the nice ones with the mean ones and don't blink twice, and how that's just perpetuating the cycle of misunderstanding & misery in real life, because people have these sorts of unrealistic expectations of their actual love-lives.
And all I can say is that I -know-, of course I know (being a nice girl myself, mostly) that it's not just the mean and tortured ones that need love, and of course I don't think being closed-off and emotionally immature should mean you can get away with anything (ie, emotional abuse). Life isn't fiction, as they say.
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no subject
Date: 2006-01-10 08:46 am (UTC)Actually, I don't think I do; I'm mainly a (fantasy/romance) genre reader, and I have no great interest in reading 'great' works of literature just because they're great. It's always been that way. With my family being old-school intellectuals, I'll probably never get over the guilt with that, but fact remains I've always read for pleasure first and I basically don't care how 'good' the book is if it's boring. On the other hand, I'm incredibly picky about the things I like, and become extremely focused and narrow in what my 'contract' is. Even so, I don't think I'll ever narrow so far as to read for 'status', because that's just joyless, and to me reading is joy.
All I can say is: thank God! There are so many lovely people on my flist who's habit is to read those sort of books -- I believe out of genuine enjoyment. Boy, does it leave me feeling like a prole. However, I've been thinking about this lately too, in regards to yaoi, and have realised that I quite like a simple story in which it's obvious what will happen. It's the UST, the quality of the story itself, good pacing and, er, pretty art that does it for me. Which is not to say I don't love the odd classic or Booker Prize winner, but as a genre they do nothing for me. VIVE LA CHICKLIT. (Well ... some of it, anyway.)
Yup, the Boy is definitely Red. It's scary to see how much like that he is, the BASTID.
I think the only fictional character I've ever fallen in love with is Ender Wiggin. I tend to want characters to get together -- Lizzy and Mr Darcy. I never wanted him for myself. Definitely have always been 'an observer sees most of the game' type-person. With a handlebar moustache.
For your last line, see my icon.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-10 08:36 pm (UTC)Like, usually it's obvious who the romantic interest is and obvious whether the story is of the happi-endo or the tragic-woe variety (so you can probably tell if someone's gonna get their nads twisted or not, usually), but the surprise is -how- it happens, yeah, and also the other setting details like what happens to the rest of their life, and whether they change so much over the course of the story they don't want what they thought they wanted, and whether they actually prefer the 'open ending' and it fits the new situation better. A great example of this is the story I just read, `The Mysteries' by Lisa Tuttle (you should so read it! it's fantasy/romance/thriller-detective novel about missing people and faeries and second chances and all that good stuff). Also it's in England & Scotland most of the time!! Um.
Anyway, it ends ambiguously at an important crossroads for the character and you sort of don't know -what- will happen, but that's the point, you see. It was the first time I'd ever read an open ending that worked so completely, utterly brilliantly, like a total stroke of genius. Usually open endings feel incomplete, but this time this very feeling of possibility was -literally- the -whole point- of the entire book, see. It's not that it's enticing you to read the sequel (which ruined an otherwise -amazing- recent faerie book by Adam Stemple). I've really grown to hate trilogies with a complete and fiery passion best reserved for stupid fanon!Draco fics, obviously~:))
Anyway, er, where was I. Yes. I've always fallen for fictional characters, but realize it's not exactly normal, ahahah. It doesn't stop me from wanting the actual characters to get together-- it's not like I get lost in Mary Suism or whatever-- it's just a personal affection that exists alongside the story. I observe too, I just sort of collect my favorites and keep them in my head, so they live in me as well as the story :> I'm -definitely- an outsider, even if I get lost in stories I love-- the only thing is that they all change me anyway. I really kind of hate projecting onto a story in the other direction (from me to it rather than from it to me), though, so I'd uh, be rather irritated with myself if I did that ^^;;