[fic ramble #20983409]

[reenka]

I think this post by worldserpent verbalizes my confused feelings about the two approaches to literature (quality vs. entertainment, or 'status' vs. 'contract'), and why one has so much more dominance in fandom. More specifically why the search for 'quality' and 'ICness' in fanfic is basically futile, like,
    people adopting extreme Status attitudes (oh noes, why do people ignore this great work even if it's in a genre/pairing they have no interest in; fanfiction is insufficiently citius altius fortius (faster higher stronger); writers are not sufficiently into busting the dominant paradigms! Also all of the meta which seems to have a subtext of "eat your peas."
    Also, so correctly: a broken Contract induces rage. Exhibit A, crazed Harmonians.

I'm sufficiently humbled: I'm very sorry if I've ever seemed to imply people should eat their peas (as I fear I have). Honestly, I hate peas. I just want my favorite cake, but realize I should bloody well make it myself. Well, I tried, though in the end it was just kind of glum having a party of one.


Anyway, the point was that this quite natural focus on 'contract' drove her in particular to stop reading fanfic-- and I think that's what it's done to me too. I -love- fanfic for the way it approaches writing (communal, multi-layered, nonlinear), but I can't stand wading through the dreck and having my own personal 'contract' broken so repeatedly. In the end, I'm no better than a 'crazed Harmonian' with all my ranty rage about fanon!Draco, people not writing 'serious' H/D and so on and so forth. I mean, sane people just stop reading fic, and I guess that's what I did in the end-- but at first it really feels like such a -betrayal- that no one's writing what -I- want to read; it's ridiculous, and a clear sign I'm reading for 'contract' (my own entertainment) moreso than quality, and should really try harder not to confuse the two, even if it's true I read for quality first (I thought).

Actually, I don't think I do; I'm mainly a (fantasy/romance) genre reader, and I have no great interest in reading 'great' works of literature just because they're great. It's always been that way. With my family being old-school intellectuals, I'll probably never get over the guilt with that, but fact remains I've always read for pleasure first and I basically don't care how 'good' the book is if it's boring. On the other hand, I'm incredibly picky about the things I like, and become extremely focused and narrow in what my 'contract' is. Even so, I don't think I'll ever narrow so far as to read for 'status', because that's just joyless, and to me reading is joy.

Actually, I read for quality in the -beginning- of fandom much more-- just a different sort of quality, perhaps. I used to be nearly 100% style-centric, and now I'm probably something like 85% content-centric, which is ridiculously high & hard to meet. It's all rather contradictory but such is (my) life.
~~

Also, I reread this old post on how all women love a fascist (ie, an 'Alpha Bastard' and/or Byronic Hero) and it struck me in relation to my recent post on Tsukasa from Hana Yori Dango, who's pretty classic in that respect. There was a comment on that saying that they prefer 'the witty, dangerous, heart-on-his/her-sleeve rogue'.

It made me think that this too is a very old literary/romance type, though usually not the one who Gets the Girl (when he does, like in the shoujo manga `Mars' or, well, in Robin Hood), I think I'm somewhat surprised, but usually this is also explained by there being a lack of the brooding Dark Knight. The girl -always- picks the Dark Knight in traditional romance, at least.

I was also thinking that my attraction to the Dark Knight is very different from liking them because they're such fascist bastards, even though I like to keep harping on their angsty bastard qualities with a sort of glee. I certainly like people's dark sides, but I suspect this is why more reasonable people than I dislike them or even hate them. And often enough, the girls who like this 'bad boy' character will say they'll dump them if they turn 'good' or 'gooey' or vulnerable (like the William bits in Spike), whereas my approach is totally different. I think the 'wounded boy' parts in this archetype are the most vital and interesting parts, and without them you wouldn't have a real person. At the same time, I'm not in favor of the girl 'taming' or totally (unrealistically) changing them but rather them finding some measure of self-acceptance or peace through loving & being loved, which isn't all that far-fetched.

Basically, I think inside every 'fascist Alpha Bastard' Byronic type there's a wounded, rather pathetic little boy who needs love. Believe me, I'm saying this with a total straight face, too. I'm not saying they're cuddly bunnies on the inside, I'm saying they're wounded, damaged people, usually messed up sometime in their childhood. I don't think a properly empathetic lover would be delusional to think they can help. Though I have to admit most romances written about this are highly unrealistic in execution.

Also, this made me think of a color classification system of sorts for the dominant male romance archetypes, where the Brooding Byronic Bastard would be the 'black' type (ie, Snape & Harry), the Dashing Dangerous Wit would be 'red' (ie, Sirius and James, probably Draco) and then there's 'silver' for the Brilliant but Shy Gentleman (ie, Remus). (Alpha/beta/theta??) There are probably others I can't think of at the moment. :>


    And I feel I should mention that these types are rather fluid and often cross over in terms of actual characters. For instance, you can't say that 'violent temper' is a property of the 'red' type alone (I think the brooding 'black' type is just more likely to uh, hold on to grudges, perhaps). Similarly, brilliance can be a characteristic of any type of personality, it's just that it defines the 'silver' type's behavior most heavily, in the sense that they tend to be more passive or non-emotional in a different way that the 'black' type would be-- meaning they're not cold (and repressing their red-hotness, mmm) but rather -cool-, if that makes sense. Though the cool 'silver' type is just repressing things differently a lot of times, etcetc :D

EDIT - Anyway, because I felt I did need to elaborate on the types beyond just a few examples, here:
    Black = the 'bitter', neurotic, angsty type. Given to outbursts of anger/rage/violence if pushed but generally controlled and/or distant. Possibly bored or disillusioned with either most people or life in general. Usually v. intelligent but not quite intellectual per se. Very dominant to the point of being near-sociopathic in interactions with others, though capable of putting on a good show; it's more natural to just intimidate people, though. Has very few (to none) good close friends; is generally overly close/attached to some childhood female figure and/or has a complex. Is not talkative and represses quite a lot of emotion. May be sexually promiscuous but in a desultory way-- generally avoids too much contact. Without 'help' or intervention, can become psychotic and totally separated from humanity-- sadism kicks in. With help or someone to lean on/let off steam with/talk with, can gradually soften and become more of a leader, someone who actually wants to take care of/protect people. One might say that overall, this type is just repressing the fact that he's 'red' on the inside, so to speak, but that's what gives him that somewhat mysterious quality.
    To be quite disgustingly meta, you could say he would be a manifestation of Ego; of Will. His willfulness and stubbornness define him.

Red = the witty, charming yet often violent playboy type. Tends to hide his emotions a lot better while also wearing his heart on his sleeve in a more obvious fashion-- meaning, you can see his moods pretty well, but you can't get really close very easily either, and he has a ferocious temper that's pretty easily triggered. Does tend to have a group of close friends and a whole slew of acquaintances, and treats women very well as a rule and likes to be treated well in return. Tends to have a style of 'no commitments & no attachments' & yet is so charming and funny he gets away with it. Likes to affect a happy-go-lucky attitude that hides a darker side which is slow-moving and intense, which even he may not be aware of. Is very hard to catch off-guard and will swear that being loyal and devoted is completely out of his nature, but it is actually his true nature, it's just that he's more multi-focused and genuinely interested in people than the 'black' type. Pretty addicted to danger & excitement of all sorts, and tends to have a very good way with words.
    Is definitely representative of Id on a very meta level; I like to associate this archetype with Mars lately. The god of War.

Silver = harder to define, as it is a rarer and more elusive type of character. Tends to be quiet and keeps to himself, generally observing and not causing a scene. Is the 'calm one' whom many dismiss and don't treat as a danger (wrongly). Can be rather manipulative and casual about it, but is generally dedicated to whatever ideal/ethical system he follows. Won't let himself be seen or understood very easily, but doesn't bluster or bluff with coldness or violence. Is polite to a fault & can smile insincerely in many different ways; is a master of insulting you so subtly you don't know you've been insulted.
    Rather manipulative and generally emotionally weak, but thinks he's more mature than everyone around him. Tends to fall for fiery, emotional types that drive him insane, but also get him to open up and be more spontaneous and genuine. Another characteristic is a tendency to give things up easily and forgive too easily while really keeping a score on some level at the same time. Is a gentleman on principle rather than any sort of desire to impress or be liked by everybody-- he often wants to be liked by those he finds worthy, and the rest just to fall into place and not bother him. Has the ability to get along with anyone and makes few enemies, but when he does, it's forever.
    Might be seen as a manifestation of the superego in some ways. Sort of.
~~

I just read this blog entry which gave me an interesting bit of perspective, being a tribute to all the 'nice' girls out there and the guys who complain that all the girls want mean guys & not them, whereas really they don't give the nice girls the time of day either. And I always feel chagrined when I remember this basic reality of existence, and how I always pair the nice ones with the mean ones and don't blink twice, and how that's just perpetuating the cycle of misunderstanding & misery in real life, because people have these sorts of unrealistic expectations of their actual love-lives.
    And all I can say is that I -know-, of course I know (being a nice girl myself, mostly) that it's not just the mean and tortured ones that need love, and of course I don't think being closed-off and emotionally immature should mean you can get away with anything (ie, emotional abuse). Life isn't fiction, as they say.

Comments

blah blah blah (amazing how I didn't mention Batman despite the "dark knight" mentions)

[cellia.livejournal.com]

I've probably plugged this before, but a fun book: Dangerous Men & Adventurous Women: Romance Writers on the Appeal of the Romance . Very readable and touches on some of this stuff (often saying it better than I could). For me, Domyoji is so striking because he was my humbling experience that, yes, I too could fall prey to the "Bastard Complex" that's so prevalent in manga/anime (my little name for loving the guy who's nice to you at times, but rude to the waiter... & everyone else). Maybe his woundedness offends me less/ is smexy somehow compared to other "dark heroes'" darkness?

I've also been thinking about the attraction towards the dark and fascist and bad boy in general. Even though they come in flavors/colors as you've separated, one can put a kind of umbrella over 'em as "dangerous men." Been reading Death Note, and man. It's very funny my fluctuating feelings toward Light, not to mention that when I lent a friend the 1st vol, she basically thought he was completely evil and hot. So this has led me to some thoughts about how even intelligent woman seem to have this draw towards fascists and baddies (if they're smart and/or handsome and/or strong ie v. few Wormtail fangirls). Even when our brains tell us we know better (or, hey, even when not... and one starts writing to guys in prison).

And I think for the bad boys it really *is* about the "taming." Even just the "human connection" is a kind of taming if the person is certain amount messed. The whole difficulty and coolness of a person's success is lost if the tamee isn't dangerous and strong, evensofar as to think he's the tamer. But what I kinda love about this ideal is that-- it actually isn't as mushily romantic as it seems, even in the case of a the 14 year girl dreaming of Spike. At heart, it's about power. Internal power to break the horse to bridle, even (especially) it it remains half wild, and the gained power of the dangerous ally/servant. Of course this is the cold, dirty, primal heart of the romance genre, and more sophisticated stories can bypass it or just incorporate bits of it for zing.

Man, I wish I could write these thoughts out better. fah.

Your quality vs entertainment part reminded me of koimistress' great entry (which you might find interesting) about what she calls "the glow." Her glow is specifically about m/m, but with this post I'm thinking that the bad boy/romance thing also have the "glow" effect. Maybe it all has to do with the reptile parts of our brains oe somesuch. Post is here.

(random aside: I never got the idea that Remus was particularly brilliant. It's James and Sirius who don't have to study. And being prefect... well Ron made prefect.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee! :D! I totally just wrote a post on koimistress' glow entry, here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/lunacy/285594.html), a few days ago-- and I think someone actually mentioned that romance book in the fascist-boys post I linked. Small world~:)) I do think the 'bad boy/romance thing' has 'glow' though I'm not sure what it means when you expand the definition too much :> But I totally think it has to do with the reptile part of our brains, as most things to do with gut attraction.

Oooh, oooh, I love your point about the dynamic not being fluffy & rather being about power-- men's fantasies are probably just a lot less relationshippy/emotional and more 'me Ug! me want! me drag!! woman come with! or DIE!' or something~:)) (It's really really REALLY SAD some part of me finds that attractive... maybe I'll just blame it on my reptile brain again and be done with it, though I suspect the monkey brain is also at fault.) You're right, though, any amount of softening is really taming (*sigh*... I just don't like the servile connotations, I guess), -especially- if he remains half-wild, yes! It's totally all about the 'dangerous ally' (I don't go for the servant thing, really, though SOB IT CAN BE HOT SOB SOB SOB). No seriously, I hate that part of me that melts when a guy would just do -anything- for the girl he's in love with even if he's this demonic mostrous entity or whatever. I KNOW it shouldn't get to me but I CAN'T STOP IT OMG. It's that same part of me that would probably let that guy impregnate me 10 times if he wanted just in sheer gratitude for him giving me this strength/ability/power. It really sucks realizing I haven't really 'matured' from the Bronze age women who showed their butts at the biggest baddest warrior. :/ *wallows*

I really am curious what about Tsukasa was different for you from say, um, Shion/Rin or what's-his-name, Arima(?? from Kare Kano) or whatever. Possibly he's just more obviously a doofus (I mean, he really is-- I'm watching the live action series and just cringe because OMG SO LAME but I still love him). But then, I see the lameness in all of them. You can't really -be- this type if you're -not- a lame pathetic loser who overcompensates a lot; with some it's more obvious than with others :>

...I'm starting to think I should read Death Note. But I'm slightly afraid to venture out of my close-knit shoujo world for fear I'll never return. I've already broken the manga, the shoujo, the manhwa -and- the J-drama barrier. I'm only holding out on shounen; though to tell the truth largely it's that I know it's not my thing. It's really kind of scary -.-;;

I think Remus is the closest thing to 'silver' I could come up with, but he's not a very good match. I was really thinking of Rui & Starwise, like that, ahahah. Though I can't quite call Rui 'brilliant', necessarily, the point is that they seem 'silver' to me :))

and now let's talk about boys

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Oh God, I really have no idea why Domyoji does it for me when so many other cool assholes of manga leave me cold. I think the part where he pushed her down after school was the point where I realized I was sadly gone for his dynamic in HYD. Hm, I will ramble and attempt to break it down.

The stair thing... it wasn't that rape exactly is a kink of mine, but, uh "ravishment" is. Epiphany: ravishment is actually the emotional power dynamics of rape reversed, but the physical ones still in play. Basically, he wants her (not just her body/any chick) so badly, he's in thrall. He can't figure out any way to *get* her though (and can barely admit to himself he wants her at all, big stumbling block). Even though he's forcing her down, he's the one whose submitting--emotionally he's the confused begger. And ravishment differs from rape because the attacker wants connection and something emotional from attacked. (And duh, this is not really not something that translates in any way into RL, but as a fictional element, I am so so gone for it.)

So, one point in his favor: he loves/wants her crazybad. I mean, so much it messes him up and he waits in the rain and gets sick etc etc. And we even have how inconsiderate he often is to the unchosen to illustrate how special Makino must be and much he must be gone for her that such a meanie will be so nice. (btw, the time when he left her to the mercy of the mob almost swung me into dislike... I'm not wired at all to like the guy's bastardness or amy attempted taming of the girl that the girl can't overcome) Hm, Rin-Shion and Arima both have the obsessive love thing going as well, which I do like, but not enough for me fangirl 'em...

(nb: I have not finished HYD all the way yet, so anything after/during Domyoji gets amnesia I do not know of... and please don't spoil)

Hm, your doofus point is probably what pushed me over the edge with him. I actually tend to have a big soft spot for the slightly dumb, but really earnest guys in anime. And yeah, you can say that But then, I see the lameness in all of them. You can't really -be- this type if you're -not- a lame pathetic loser who overcompensates a lot; with some it's more obvious than with others :>, but *really*. The guys like Rin-Shion and Arima and *gestures at CLAMP chars and various semes and assorted shoujo asshole heroes* they're not really very obviously lame. They give off coded cool vibes. You have to analyze their behavior and look at it objectively and then "aha, according to evidence, he's lame." But it's not a visceral feeling the characters tend to give you (well, maybe you, but let's say most other fannish-type chicks).

Then again, I don't find Snape all awesome, and he's certainly lame. I think I need many main positives (Domyoji: rich, strong, alpha), so the slight denseness is adorable rather than pitiable. Pity is death for me in the primal romance game (not to be confused with feeling sorry for someone with all the horrible things they go through). Pitiable people are marked for mother-love, people who mostly just need to be taken care of and saved. Which does feed into the Florence Nightingale thing, but if they don't have enough "positives" to offer, they're not mate material, but charity cases (and whoa, just figured out why Harry and Sirius are hot and Draco and Snape are not for me).

(more Remus aside: if I cared more I'd go into how Remus is the most fanonized character of JRK's and nocturne_alley, though fun, didn't help. But since he's such a wet piece of toast in the books any fanonization is probably a good thing...)

...and their...toys sounds better than neuroses

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee, it's so cool how the things we like are so similar, but with small yet significant differences! :> I'm totally with you on the ravishment thing-- the stereotypical appeal of bodice-rippers, how sad-- and on the need for huge good points to set off any lameness-- though I think I'm just particularly sensitive to the pathos of characters like Shion or even, um, the Red King in Basara. I think overall, I probably see it because I -want- to see it, not so much wanting to pity them as-- understand their outlook. I think it's that whole animus fascination thing, for me. I totally realize how they'd be more attractive as people if their vulnerability (or doofusness, whichever, ahaha) was more tangible, but basically I'm just willing to work for it and pick up those crumbs as a sort of challenge or adventure or something.... er. -.-

I'm totally there with you on the difference between sympathy & pity, seen through the whole Snape & Draco vs. Harry & Sirius thing. Though I think that's if you -give- sympathy to characters like Harry, which people who like characters like Snape or Draco often don't, 'cause you know, they're 'the Man' and have too much power/influence which they misuse or because they're too mean to the underdog or etcetc metameta, ahahah. I think most people either like Draco in a nurturing/motherly way or they identify or they fanonize him out of his patheticness. There is only me, the lone ranger of actually not pitying Draco and still trying to like him and diss him only sometimes. He-- and pathetic characters in general-- seem to really polarize reader response, somehow.

I think you're right that Shion gives off a coded 'cool' vibe in a different way than Tsukasa, who can never -quite- pull it off, though-- allowing Tsukushi more real power than Mokuren, for all the emotional submission you have with both of them, and I admit I like these sorts of cases better even though they're rarer. That is, the girl is more -obviously- emotionally dominant, I guess, like with Buffy&Spike...? Or at least she's given the opportunity early on. Though... when someone who's normally prideful and dominant is obsessively in love with you, if you -realize- it and accept it, anyone would have the power, ahahah -.-;; Though not Mokuren/Alice, perhaps-- she's too nurturing and accepting, though I love PSME partly because I identify with her so much. *sigh*

Usually, though, I love stories most where the girl is spunky and strong-willed herself, and doesn't take any of the guy's shit, so that allows me not to dislike him too much when he acts like a total asshole like with Tsukasa allowing her to be harassed that time. It's also really great like in Basara, where he's mean to her and persecutes her and stuff, but thinks it's her twin brother, ahahaha. -.- Anyway, I suspect this emotional strength of the other character gives it the 'ravishment vs rape' effect in that it -looks- abusive but is actually just really rough courtship. Maybe :>

Remus really is a wet piece of toast, though. That's why I like him with Sirius, partly-- these guys need someone so outrageous as to drive them insane enough to snap. Because I do think the toast thing is something of an act-- not that he's secretly cool somehow, but he showed by his increased demandingness in OoTP that he'd been toning himself down for the Marauders, still.... Though most fangirls... er, yeah.... All they see is the gentlemanly thing, the wild-wild-beast thing and possibly the chocolate obsession, I dunno :>

Re: ...and their...toys sounds better than neuroses

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Anyway, I suspect this emotional strength of the other character gives it the 'ravishment vs rape' effect in that it -looks- abusive but is actually just really rough courtship. Maybe :>

See, I don't even really see it as courtship, but as chasing/begging. He just, uh, managed to halfway "catch" the object of their affections as they chase. But, of course, it's only a physical catch, so really, the physical control/interaction only shoves it more blatently to the forefront that they are still so far behind their goal and utterly unrequited.

Though... when someone who's normally prideful and dominant is obsessively in love with you, if you -realize- it and accept it, anyone would have the power, ahahah -.-;; As soon as the chick realizes/accepts the dymanic is different. Because she's somehow reciprocating now. She's joined the dance. It's become courtship (of whatever type). Rough courtship is fun, but not quite the same zing for me as ravishment. Of course I like best when the story segues from one to another. Ending, naturally, with him wrapped firmly around her little finger, but not so firmly so he's still grr male and a handy guy to have around (and worth having wrapped around one's little finger).

Remus; can I just say he sucks and leave it at that? I mean, I could have a deep discussion citing from the books and all. But. Remus. bleh. >.

Re: ...and their...toys sounds better than neuroses

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eh, you're right-- you seem to have all the stages worked out way more precisely than I~:)) I think if you broke it down any more, we'd have 85% of a surefire romance plot, ahahaha. I'm so... almost tempted :>

But yeah, um, I should've realized that the 'realization' is a major stage in an of itself-- like with all that stuff Aja likes to say about how Harry has to 'see' Draco-- it's similar, perhaps. Perhaps this is the problem-- what with top!Harry, it'd be difficult to get him to ravish Draco before he 'saw' him. Ahh so... needlessly complicated, somehow. Y'know, when I think about that stuff with the little finger & the wrapping-- I never thought I was the kind of girl who was into that (I'm all about equality! and partnership! and liberation! I thought!) but looking back, I totally do go for it, though I go for struggle/balance-among-equals as well. What I really -hate- is when both the physical & emotional power goes to the same party. I just start twitching and wanting someone (in the fic) to die pay :>

Ahahah, I've never particularly liked Remus, but... sometimes certain authors do write him both sympathetically & in character. Usually somehow it helps me that he's hopelessly in love with Sirius & can't do a thing about it. But that's just me :>

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

GOD FUCKING SHIT IT XO I just deleted my big comment reply to you. Shit shit shit. Oh damnit. Okay, try again...

In the end, I'm no better than a 'crazed Harmonian' with all my ranty rage about fanon!Draco, people not writing 'serious' H/D and so on and so forth.

Can I have this tattooed on your forehead, please? XD

Seriously though, you can't have status without a contract, so if you don't risk it you've lost any possibility and gained nothing. As lame as fandom sometimes gets (it's improving a lot for me right now) I wouldn't want to lose that chance.

On the second point: I totally don't get this. I've never bought this cultural lie, and I don't think I will.

If I did, I'd probably be orgasming everytime I read The Ultimates. Bigger bunch of bastards in storytelling have never existed. Except for Thor, and maybe Tony, but more on that later. Also, Ultimate Wolverine would do the same thing, but he tried the redeemed-through-true-sex bullshit, and it didn't work with Jean, and he consequently tried to murder Scott in the Savage Land after Jean dumped him.

But I'll admit I have a thing for Mags, less so because he's a bastard and more because he's a) a genius, b) sexy as all fuck, especially in Ultimate, & c) powerful. Not because of his Byronic redeemable romance qualities, but because you've got to respect a man who can reverse the Earth's polarities and still pull off a magenta-and-purple costume XD.

Seriously though, I don't get this. I love Apollo & Midnigther because they are total bastards, but they're total bastards to all the right people. I mean, they're gayer than Draco, and the only people who are bigger bastards than they are in the Wildstorm universe are Jenny Sparks, their daughter Jenny Quantum, and definitely the evil Henry Bendix, but they're not the stupid-mindless-emotionally-retarded bastards of the kind in the Ultimates and the kind she's talking about in that link. And the ones being discussed are emotionally retarded, the ones being discussed, which is why they're bastards. In a sorta way, Tony Stark in the Ultimates is like that, but he deals with it by spending 24 hours of every day drunk, and finds an equally bastardish partner to marry (Black Widow). Thor's not a bastard at all, comparably, but I guess he could be one if he tried. He's more like Apollo and Midnighter, in the sense he only joins up working with the Ultimates if there's some serious threat to humanity involed, and not just their regular military/beating up mutants missions.

I read the Anansi Boys recently, and Spider is a perfect example. He only improves slightly during the story because he emotionally matures, and I really didn't like him as a character. Dr Troy from Nip/Tuck (mmmmm Julian McMahon) is the perfect bastard, and then McMahon doubles up again as Dr Doom in the Fantastic Four, but I'll take Reed anyday (okay, maybe not movie!Reed in the sense of emotional maturity, but still, Ioan Gruffudd is hot) because even for his geekiness, he's more emotionally mature. I don't find that whole sort of I-never-grew-up-emotionally-from12-years-old thing attractive, and I never will, and it's the reason said bastards are bastards. *shrugs* I'd rather smack their balls in with a baseball bat.

So yes, I'm definitely a Remus over Sirius girl. :D Alpha bastards just don't do it for me, and I honestly can't believe het chicks still buy into this shit.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think the deep dark & ugly truth is that I (and a lot of women, apparently) are nurturing types: we like them being emotionally 12 because it gives us a challenge and/or something to do and/or someone to take care of who needs us and there's this exchange of need thing (as separate from codependency?? maybe), too, 'cause like, they're still powerful in a way we're not. Or something. So if you're not into nurturing or 'taming' or basically being an amateur psychologist/therapist/nurse as well as a lover, none of this will sound fun to you :>

Anyway, um, I cringe at trying to tie this to one's real-life partner preferences 'cause I feel it doesn't -have- to be tied, and well, 2 of my 3 boyfriends were total Remusy nice guys. Though, uh, the one I never got over was the immature bastard type, but. *coughs*

I think the 'I-never-grew-up-emotionally-from-12-years-old thing' is like... not anything you -respect-, if you're looking to respect/admire your partner and treat him as an equal in every way, perhaps. And that gets old, I know. Ideally, that's their one weakness, though-- it works best if they're otherwise brilliant/strong/violent(? well in some contexts)/powerful or whatever. I think it's misleading to just call them 'bastards' because well, that dumb construction worker guy down the street catcalling all the pretty girls is an immature bastard too, and he does nothing for me. They have to be very much an individual who stands out, someone completely uniquely (dominant), one of a kind. There's usually only room for one or two at a time, and if they're together they're usually enemies.

Which is why it's important, I thought, to separate them into color or type categories. I mean, I'd probably pick Remus over Sirius, but then I dig silver more than red. I become friends with red types and fall heavily for black types, and can get involved in a friends-with-benefits way with silver types.

Also, most het chicks & most of the bastards they like aren't nearly intelligent or empathetic enough to make this sort of tamer/tamee relationship work. Enormous strength and fortitude and persistence is needed on the part of the girl, and the love between them has to be very strong to withstand all the inevitable bullshit. And the guy has to be interesting enough in other ways to make the pay-off worth it, which doesn't happen all that much in real life, y'know. But fiction, on the other hand-- :>

I guess I'm still willing to read fanfic, clearly, just dunno about H/D fic. I was tempted to make a post telling people all my squicks/kinks/desires and asking for recs, but then thought I probably know or heard of every significant H/D writer out there (seriously, I probably have if they're even remotely well-known, and pretty likely even if they're not). I still have to say I'm not -quite- as bad as the Harmonians since I never technically crossed the insanity barrier, y'know ^^;;

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I think the deep dark & ugly truth is that I (and a lot of women, apparently) are nurturing types: we like them being emotionally 12 because it gives us a challenge and/or something to do and/or someone to take care of who needs us and there's this exchange of need thing (as separate from codependency?? maybe), too, 'cause like, they're still powerful in a way we're not.

But they're not. These kinds of men are not dependent. They don't need nurturing types. They just need people to use and exploit - men and women. You can't tame that, because there's no equality.

but then I dig silver more than red. I become friends with red types and fall heavily for black types, and can get involved in a friends-with-benefits way with silver types.

You may as well be speaking Swahili for all the sense this makes to me.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, uh. See, of course they're dependent and needy (though naturally in denial about it), that's the logical byproduct of them being 12 emotionally, right? As in, they didn't get raised correctly in some way, something's missing. So if something's missing, then they need it, and thusly you create dependence. They may be capable of 'social success' as most people understand it while alone, but this is their great trick, generally, since they're carrying around all this baggage & emotional trauma, generally (well, we're talking Byronic heroes, so they do by definition). They may be capable of acting okay (like autistic people learn to live normally), but they're not, in fact, okay. So a function of them falling in love is realizing they're not okay first and then simultaneously realizing their great need/desire (and eventually love). At least that's how it works in stories, I'm not saying it's a direct parallel to real life in general.

...I'm starting to suspect that I should've actually explained the color-coding thing better ^^;; Man, this writing-by-shorthand (basically so that -I- know what I'm talking about) is really a drag. I'm a horrible explainer :/

Er, I've edited the post to include the definitions, just in case that's clearer now~:)

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

that's the logical byproduct of them being 12 emotionally, right?

Not really. The point I was trying to make about them being emotionally 12 is that they're selfish pricks, without a care for others. They're not dependent emotionally on others, like most teenage males.

I mean, Byron himself is the perfect example. He wasn't dependent on anyone, and did as he pleased. He was a grade A arsehole, and generally treated both men and women like shit. They can't "act okay" because they are emotionally retarded, so instead they act like bastards.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Ohh, double edit: On the colours, um, I'm not sure if it's that simple. I mean, one could argue Harry's not overly brooding anymore, nor is he really a bastard.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to narrow everything down to black type = Harry (or Snape). In fact, only Sirius fits the ('red') archetype overly well in HP, but I stretched to say 'this is the closest I could come to explaining what I mean with HP'. Perhaps I should've left out examples all together, 'cause people always quibble when they know what I'm talking about but it doesn't fit exactly, and really I was thinking of another character most people wouldn't know. Also 'bastard' is a huge oversimplification-- the colors are more descriptive of dominant male -romance- archetypes.

Also, by 'act okay' I meant act like -they're- okay, not act 'okay' to other people. Plus, how they act to other people is totally separate to how they'd act with their one person/girl they love/etc. Since I'm talking about romance archetypes in the first place, -not- real-life bastards who may never meet anyone like that. I get that you don't buy that these types need anyone, but fact is everyone needs someone, especially teenage boys~:) They're just better at pushing people away to their own detriment.

I wasn't arguing with the 'selfish' aspect, but rather saying love too, can be selfish, but in the end they can be soothed/softened by the right person. In stories. ^^;;;

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

They're just better at pushing people away to their own detriment.

See, I don't think it's to their own detrement. Yes, everyone needs interaction with others on some level, but that interaction doesn't need to be truly dependent in the emotional-relationship sense. It's making them out to be some sort of pitiful poor darling woobies which is the whole problem of the myth. They're not. They're arseholes because they've chosen to be arseholes. Whether they stand there and say, ala Dr Troy from Nip/Tuck, "Oh, I was abused" or "A woman I loved dumped me and I can never love again" or blah blah blah, excuses excuses, they're just that: excuses. Forever arsehole that uses said excuses there's a million people in the world who had the same experience and didn't become an arsehole. I just detest these types so much in real life I find myself avoiding them in stories, unless they're written purposefully in a bad light (ala The Ultimates) for what they are. Or unless they're reallu really hot, such as Julian McMahon. Did you know his daddy was Prime Minister of Australia?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, you know I try not to whitewash people's dark sides and not to explain away bad behavior-- as I tried to say, it's not like I'm out to excuse emotional abuse or say it's okay. At the same time, I feel there should be some balance between justice and mercy, to be all meta about it; feeling sympathy and love and wanting to help a person & all that isn't the same as excusing someone from the consequences of their actions.

In the end, it's just a personal belief that everyone needs love, especially the people who can 'process' it least well. Like, especially because they've got these barriers against vulnerability-- that's often why it's so tempting to bring them to that point (to some people-- I wasn't trying to claim universal appeal or rationality, only noticing patterns in stories). I don't think it's about pity & woobification, though-- that's just the badfics, generally. At heart, it's like cellia said-- a primal game of power.

And they may not need emotional dependence to function like some poor lonely girl or something, but this dependence can -develop- is what I was saying, and once they fall, they can fall hard & brutal. That said, it's not as if you need to like them-- often enough, even the ones in love with them don't like them. In stories, it's often also a journey to them truly liking themselves.

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Ag, look at all the typos in my post T_T. I was obviously more asleep than I realized.

Ok, first: Death Note is fairly cool. The art is by Takeshi Obata (ie the Hikaru no go artist, which was all I needed to decide to read it, actually). THE ART/PAGE DESIGN IS AMAZING (and frankly carries the story when the plot gets weak). It's even more impressive when one considers that it's a very monologue and talking-heads intensive manga. Also one of the few things I've read where we really do have an *anti-hero* and not just a generally decent person who's rude or badass or whatever. I am a little disappointed that it doesn't seem to really "take on" any of the issues it deals with (and recent developments just make me realize that this author has *no* idea what makes America tick, but anyway...). Actually, I have no idea if you'll like it, but it does have a cute psychotic boy. :D

It really sucks realizing I haven't really 'matured' from the Bronze age women who showed their butts at the biggest baddest warrior. :/ *wallows* Yeah, I'm a little uncertain exactly where I am about all that as well. I really do think there are very different types of female and male power. We don't have to be ruled by our biology, but just like some people have a predisposition to math or art, I think (in general) men and women do have some primal stuff going on--which leads to things like "the glow". But, hey, as long as the intellectual part of my brain doesn't let me do something like run off with a burly convict who beats me, I think it's ok. In fact, denial of the existence of "embarrassingly cliche" urges probably won't help any more than any other kind of denial does.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I know you said you read it for the art in large part, but I have to say it sounds like I'd most likely read it if it were a sci-fi/fantasy novel -.-; Psychotic boys are a huge plus of course-- Basara wouldn't be half so fun without the Blue King, say. Whom I so totally want to end up with Sarasa in some AU, but that's neither here nor there. I suspect I just can never leave these types well enough alone, ahaha.

I really dig the idea of female vs. male power, though that just makes me feel unfeminist somehow. Like, Stephen just said yesterday that the reason he likes talking to girls and not guys is that girls act more like just 'people'. In the end, I'm not sure what to make of that-- it makes me think of how indigenous peoples and alien races always think of themselves as The People in the books; I'm not sure how that relates, except that it's freaky-weird to have a guy find females more The People than his own, er, people, though he's not very guy-like. Gender-- and others' gender preferences-- never cease to confuse me, it seems.

Though I suspect you can't attribute it entirely to primal urges, lots of intelligent er, people do make rather stupid mistakes when it comes to falling in love/lust. Like, to fight the power of pheromones, I think you may have to just repress your desires in general in a pretty serious way, y'know...

[scoradh.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don't think I do; I'm mainly a (fantasy/romance) genre reader, and I have no great interest in reading 'great' works of literature just because they're great. It's always been that way. With my family being old-school intellectuals, I'll probably never get over the guilt with that, but fact remains I've always read for pleasure first and I basically don't care how 'good' the book is if it's boring. On the other hand, I'm incredibly picky about the things I like, and become extremely focused and narrow in what my 'contract' is. Even so, I don't think I'll ever narrow so far as to read for 'status', because that's just joyless, and to me reading is joy.

All I can say is: thank God! There are so many lovely people on my flist who's habit is to read those sort of books -- I believe out of genuine enjoyment. Boy, does it leave me feeling like a prole. However, I've been thinking about this lately too, in regards to yaoi, and have realised that I quite like a simple story in which it's obvious what will happen. It's the UST, the quality of the story itself, good pacing and, er, pretty art that does it for me. Which is not to say I don't love the odd classic or Booker Prize winner, but as a genre they do nothing for me. VIVE LA CHICKLIT. (Well ... some of it, anyway.)

Yup, the Boy is definitely Red. It's scary to see how much like that he is, the BASTID.

I think the only fictional character I've ever fallen in love with is Ender Wiggin. I tend to want characters to get together -- Lizzy and Mr Darcy. I never wanted him for myself. Definitely have always been 'an observer sees most of the game' type-person. With a handlebar moustache.

For your last line, see my icon.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I actually used to read 'great' books for pleasure when I was little and my mom influenced me more, though they're not the 'classics' as most people know them, in retrospect (I mean, who's even heard of Maine Reade or Walter Scott anymore-- I think I was a freak even then-- and Dickens is really like 19th century mass-market reading). I like to be surprised in stories, because otherwise it's boring, but I like to be surprised in specific ways-- like, I want to be -satisfied- in the sense that the threads are tied up, the ending fits the beginning, and it all makes sense, so if I didn't see where it was going it was -my- fault and not the writer's, if that makes sense. And since I'm rather bad at predicting things, it's not that hard to fool me :>

Like, usually it's obvious who the romantic interest is and obvious whether the story is of the happi-endo or the tragic-woe variety (so you can probably tell if someone's gonna get their nads twisted or not, usually), but the surprise is -how- it happens, yeah, and also the other setting details like what happens to the rest of their life, and whether they change so much over the course of the story they don't want what they thought they wanted, and whether they actually prefer the 'open ending' and it fits the new situation better. A great example of this is the story I just read, `The Mysteries' by Lisa Tuttle (you should so read it! it's fantasy/romance/thriller-detective novel about missing people and faeries and second chances and all that good stuff). Also it's in England & Scotland most of the time!! Um.

Anyway, it ends ambiguously at an important crossroads for the character and you sort of don't know -what- will happen, but that's the point, you see. It was the first time I'd ever read an open ending that worked so completely, utterly brilliantly, like a total stroke of genius. Usually open endings feel incomplete, but this time this very feeling of possibility was -literally- the -whole point- of the entire book, see. It's not that it's enticing you to read the sequel (which ruined an otherwise -amazing- recent faerie book by Adam Stemple). I've really grown to hate trilogies with a complete and fiery passion best reserved for stupid fanon!Draco fics, obviously~:))

Anyway, er, where was I. Yes. I've always fallen for fictional characters, but realize it's not exactly normal, ahahah. It doesn't stop me from wanting the actual characters to get together-- it's not like I get lost in Mary Suism or whatever-- it's just a personal affection that exists alongside the story. I observe too, I just sort of collect my favorites and keep them in my head, so they live in me as well as the story :> I'm -definitely- an outsider, even if I get lost in stories I love-- the only thing is that they all change me anyway. I really kind of hate projecting onto a story in the other direction (from me to it rather than from it to me), though, so I'd uh, be rather irritated with myself if I did that ^^;;