[wait by the light of the moon]

[reenka]

Reading `The Art of Walking Backwards', which is shaping up to be a wonderful Bring Back Black fic, I'm thinking about the idea of Remus wanting to bring Sirius back for Harry, because he needs him-- because he shouldn't have to survive alone like Remus has had to, and....


I was just thinking how a large part of the 'justification' or philosophy for H/D had been that Harry is lonely-- that he needs someone who's all his, to keep, you know.... Especially because we all thought after Sirius, he'd be broken in some way and just like Remus thought in this fic, he couldn't take anymore, and you know-- he wasn't broken after all in HBP-- and then Dumbledore died, and yet no one really seems to think he'll be broken now, even though now he's lost even more. And he's learned to let go voluntarily, with Ginny, so theoretically he should be -more- shut off and emotionally barren, shouldn't he? Is this fodder, then, for the people who'd always claimed Harry has to go on alone, not paired with anyone, 'cause he's the hero (which I'd always strenuously disagreed with, 'cause that's just not JKR at all).

And yet-- and yet-- I think for all his losses and the strain, it's just hit me that... I don't think Harry's lonely at this point, not anymore. I think that's a large part of why I've been sort of at a standstill with my Harry characterization-- because where HBP ended, I think he realized what was important to him. He realized what he would fight for, and now he's not just rolling with the punches, he's not just taking it. I think he found a sense of purpose and control over his life which Remus never had, because he was a werewolf and powerless in ways Harry never was. Harry is not powerless, and even without his parents or Sirius or Dumbledore, he's not alone. He's not like Remus at all. He has Ron and Hermione, and he has a purpose, and he has the innate capability to win and defeat that which had made him powerless-- unlike Remus, he has an enemy he can actually fight, because the enemy isn't himself.

I keep feeling bewildered, on some level, by the people who see HBP through shippy glasses (forget H/Hr or H/D or R/Hr), because it wasn't about any of those to me-- and no, I don't mean it was H/Hr/R, except it was, but not that way. They faced a rift and they overcame it, and I really feel the three of them are stronger than ever, and the truth is, Harry doesn't need Ginny because he has them. Ginny's... nice, but not essential, and he knows it, and that's why he can let her go. That's why he can be strong and feel sad about Dumbledore without suppressing it-- because he's learned to lean a little, I think.

Just as Draco has had his world knocked out from under him, I think Harry has found his grounding at last, which has been there all along, of course. He knows where his strength is, and it's not that love is beside the point, it's that he has it. He didn't make the mistake James & Remus & Sirius made in mistrusting each other-- so he's all right the same way they would have been if they'd stuck together. He'll be okay.
    (And while I'm so happy for Harry, in ficcish terms... man, it couldn't be less inspiring.)
~~

Also, I'd just like to say, coldbeverage's Crabbe & Goyle are what they look like in my head, and why slash with either of them... um... puzzles me. Canon, baybe! Also, omg, Ron & Hermione arguing is just kind of... painfully cute. And woooowwww, nassima's Azkaban!Padfoot o_0 WHOAH. And actually, the whole hp_details comm is making me all wide-eyed, especially things like these visualizations of the four Common Rooms o_0 Now I want to write things set there! And zomg, Hogwarts! And Hogwarts lake! I think I might be a little obsessed... Ahhh, the Burrow...!..!.!!... I think I'm going to cry.
    OMG, this is... er... almost my Remus.... Or maybe this one by Ashley is closer. Um. There are so many at the Full Moony, and yet nothing totally fits. This one's definitely alpha!Remus-- you can sort of see him smoking a cigar and being droll, ahahah. Ashley's one S/R is really kinda hot, though. Possibly... possibly I love this Remus by Julie Thomson best. (Oh, and-- all the Remus pics, you'd have to copy & paste the link to see.) And then we have fools_trifle's S/R Celtic knot(!!!) ...aaand I'm done (for).

Comments

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

continued:

As for Draco, it's easier to see him as a top - and I don't mean typical top behaviour - because he seems much less oblivious. I mean, if he doesn't make the first move, nothing will happen, because Harry's a bit dim about these things. I mean, he took forever to get his feelings for Ginny, and society is conditioning us to think that boy/girl is the way to go. And his best friends was having a relationship right in front of his nose too. This is, of course, an effect of my being convinced that Harry won't make a move in anger. I think that point makes the rest of their dynamic so different from how you see them. I also think that this is a point where both interpretations is actually possible, though.

The problem with top!harry is that in all the fics I have read with him, he's either been the typical top you spoke of, or the dark!Harry, which works very well in the fics I mentioned because of what has happened to him in those fics but just get laughable when people try to pull it off just from using present canon.

Harry and Draco are my two favourite characters, and I actually do love them both. I still don't think of Draco as very submissive though - I agree he aligns himself with those in power, but I don't think that it necessarily reflects how he behaves in a relationship. You could just as easily say that he's acting smart in the face of those with power over him. And since what I want in H/D is equal interaction...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I wasn't trying to say Cassie's fic is some sort of blueprint for how I see post-OoTP H/D or anything-- and I agree that Harry would fight till the end and not give up and wouldn't be so easily broken. I didn't mean that Sirius' death would break him, just introduce some cracks into his self-control and/or some further delinquency into his behavior. I know about dandelion children-- actually Ivy Blossom wrote a fic about Harry & Draco (http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/iblossom/dandelion.html) like that once.

I also didn't mean I think violent!H/D is most likely by a long-shot, and in fact my main post-OoTP longfics (well, mostly unfinished) are more introspective & slow-building and stuff, which is how I like my H/D in the end (like, there's a reason `Eclipse (http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/PhoenixSong/Eclipse/)' is my favorite post-OoTP H/D & it's mostly a friendship fic until the end). It's just... yeah, I can see what you're saying about Harry not having the presence of mind (at least in OoTP), generally, to think/feel anything else while he was lashing out in anger, it's just that I thought he had potential to mutate/change (which I was interested in).

I'm not sure if I can justify it with canon & I wasn't really trying to, just to say that it's -possible- to take his dark obsessiveness just that one step further. Like, in OoTP he was obsessed with the Dept of Mysteries, whereas in HBP it was Draco-- and he & Draco, y'know, are very physical with each other (in terms of awareness of action/reaction). So it's not that he'd hex him or hit him & then come on to him, but rather that I think Harry's obliviousness of things physical/emotional can be -thinner- with Draco, his behavior not quite the same as with others. I'm just saying that can be played with, not that it has to be.

I think Draco is quite, quite oblivious (or rather, in denial) in his own ways-- about himself, his role in the world, what he really wants (like with Dumbledore), etc. It's very easy to write fics that are reasonably in-character where he's been in love/lust with Harry since like, 3rd year, and that's because he's got a talent for pretending/self-deception born of pride/narcissism & insecurity most of all-- he has a self-image he wants to keep up but can't, and all sorts of things he ignores merely because they don't fit his little fantasy. That's why his breakdown in HBP was so spectacular-- he was realizing that his self-conceptions and abilities don't hold up to reality, that he can't deny he's bitten off more than he could chew-- so of course his mental equilibrium suffered greatly.

Also, I don't know if I fully see the direct causal link between being emotionally oblivious (which, as I said, Draco also is in a different way) and being sexually submissive (though I can see initially passive, but that's another thing that'd change once one 'saw the light'). Harry's not passive when he finally has a clue-- he springs into action. I see no real evidence for him 'bottoming' for Ginny the way Ron seems to with Hermione-- I mean, he didn't wait for Ginny to come to him first, he grabbed her and kissed her. The whole thing started 'cause he's a jealous possessive bastard (with Dean), which is definitely not a bottom characteristic at all. Ginny's not possessive/dominant-- she let him go at the end, remember, she knew she couldn't influence him (this is not, btw, anything Hermione would ever let slide with Ron).

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Nah, I just figured you used the fic as a referential point, like "This sort of fic can work for me because...". At least that's what I was doing, only the other way around, haha.

I know about the Dandelion fic, since she wrote it after a discussion with me and some others on a mailing list. I'd read about it rather recently then, and introduced it into the discussion. It's mentioned in the post, though not on her website I think.

It's funny how you describe Draco, since it's so similar to how I've been thinking about him for... well a long time. I've been nagging my friends for a couple of years now that I believe that Draco's lead a very sheltered life and been fed a lot of propaganda of pure-bloodedness (er...) and Voldemort. He's like one of the many people who are raised to believe something and get their beliefs constantly reinforced by everyone around. I used to say that it would take something big to make him change his course, something that would make him realise what the harsh reality was really like. And then HBP came out, and I was reasonably smug about it, heh. Though it's not been proved beyond a doubt, I now think it's the most likely scenario.

I don't think this needs to indicate how he would behave in a relationship, or how he handles feelings. Since his childhood has been so normal (aside from the political aspect) I tend to think that Draco is more aware of what he's really feeling. I see him as someone who thinks and plans more than Harry (who often act on pure instinct) and therefore has to be more... reflective? Not by very much of course - He still loses his temper and composure as soon as Harry gets near - but more so than Harry.

Self-deception... well, I'm not sure about this one. In HBP he was forced to realise what one of the founding stones in his view on existence actually entailed - and that he wanted to give it up - but I don't think it has to show that he's decieving himself on emotional stuff. I'm sure he does have insecurities though; we all have (and Harry has more than most, though it's rarely obvious). I just don't think they're his dominating part. After all, when confronted with this turning point, he stops with the posturing. He's starting to realise that a part of his world-view may be wrong and he has to deal with that. But I don't think that believing in the wrong things makes you weak. Rather, being able to break free of them (especially under those circumstances) takes quite a lot.

Hm, good point about submissive and passive being different. I do think Harry would be the passive at first, since I think it'd take longer for him to realise what he was feeling. But I don't think active has to equal dominant either. Though I dislike those labels.

The thing is I don't care who does what to whom in bed. It's the top/bottom labels and mentalities that I abhor. I don't want one of them to be given certain traits because of their role when they have sex. It doesn't feel like I'm reading about Harry and Draco anymore, but rather a construct in which they are made to fit even if it means cutting off or adding certain parts of their personality. So I don't dislike fiction where Draco is the one being penetrated in bed (just to be specific, hah) but fiction in which he has to fit in this certain set of rules. Huh, I just managed to put this into words for the first time thanks to you!

About Ginny, I seem to recall that she was the one running up to and throwing her arms around Harry. Do you know how hard it is to kiss someone who's not about to kiss you? She had to be aiming for it too.

I don't know what to think about that breaking-up scene because it was so silly that I was wondering if JKR was serious. The most obvious conclusion to me was that they're not really in love anymore, but really, the scene defies analysing.

I'm not sure I remember Harry being possessive, though he was jealous a lot... in a rather unoffensive manner.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Just a quick reply for now-- um, the reason I think Draco's in denial about feelings is because of his behavior towards Harry-- that is, he obviously wanted to be Harry's friend, got rejected & then became obsessed with grabbing his attention/pranking/telling on him, 'cause clearly he hates him so much. If he was honest with himself, he wouldn't go to such lengths to prove himself to Harry, wouldn't babble to his father about him, etc. I mean, Harry's opinion of/reaction to him seems to matter quite a bit to him, even when he's otherwise pretty preoccupied with other things-- like on the train, and in the bathroom scene. He really does still jump at Harry, not wanting to be seen as weak, wanting a pre-emptive strike, revenge, etc-- and I don't see much evidence that he knows something's fishy about this fixation (I don't mean it's slashy, I just mean he's got self-esteem issues tied up in there he's in denial about, it seems). I'm with you re: not liking rigid roles-- I was always thinking of their sexual dynamic, at least, as being when they'd gotten past the initial passive stage, though, mostly. With Harry... you're right, I'd forgotten that Ginny ran at him, yeah... I just think in the end, it was his choice, his -control- in some central way. I dunno, I just think Harry takes charge and just -does- it when he figures out what he wants (the jealousy implies possesssiveness to me, as in, if he wasn't, why would he have a monster in his chest all roaring?) Um, with the break-up... haha, yeah, I never thought they were supposed to be in love in the first place-- I was just saying that if Ginny was the one in control, she wouldn't have realized now wasn't a good time to push him.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

I do agree to some extent about Draco being in denial of sorts. And we've been having this discussion for so long now that I've forgotten what I've already said, haha.^^;; Anyway, I think the starting point of their enmity was clearly an instance of them both hitting each other's weakest points. With Draco, I would say it's his pride. Or at least it was then. Harry is (was?) oversensitive to people acting similar to Dudley, and Draco being flanked by his larger companions and acting condescending must have given Harry some (probably subconscious) Dudley-flashbacks. And you're not exactly unbiased when you're eleven and your first friend ever is being insulted, heh.

After the first few retaliations, there was just no turning back, and things have just kept escalating since... Until HBP.

But you're right; Draco's obsession with Harry is a lot more than he thinks it is, slashy or not. And he is in denial about it, I can see that. Hm, I guess what I meant was that Draco is normally more aware fo his feelings? When he's with people he likes and trusts. Unlike Harry, who (with a few exceptions) has to be prodded and poked to reveal something. Which is why my view on their dynamic only works if the become friends before they become lovers, and that only works if my view on Harry is correct. Which, of course, I think it is, but it's not like I couldn't be wrong, haha.

I see Harry as more going-with-the-flow type of person. I mean, the scene with Ginny could totally be read both ways since JKR is so unspecific about these things. About the jealaousy... I don't know. Not the jealous type myself, you see.^^ Though it didn't result in anything more severe than annoyance with Dean on Harry's part, did it? If so, it was rather tame. On the other hand, isn't Draco usually portrayed as the jealous one in bottom!Draco fics? Or have I just been reading the wrong ones?

And well, Ginny is young; even doms must make mistakes at the tender age of fifteen, right? Heh, j/k.^^

(Oh, I wish I'd had time to read the rest of the comments! But I need to go back to working...)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

To explain how I see Draco I'd have to actually, uh, explain how I see Draco, period, which seems a bit too large of a project for now ^^; People who try to defend Draco and say 'but he's just being smart' or 'he's really got it going on and we can't tell', all in the interests of 'improving' his chances with Harry or his appeal as a 'strong' character (ha... ha... hahah)-- I mean... this is the breeding ground for fanon!Draco, right there. He's -not- as strong as Harry; he's not directly Harry's equal in terms of ego/strength of character; they can have a balanced relationship, because yeah, he's intelligent, can hold his own in a hexing fight, is a compatible Seeker, is good at Potions-- but he's still, y'know, "Dorko Malfly", Loser Extraordinaire.

He's a childish prat. A poncy melodramatic git. A... posh spoiled whiny delusional little twerp with Daddy issues, a mean streak three miles wide, an obsessive need for attention, two goons for 'best friends', a simpering bitch for a girlfriend, and a crazed megalomaniac for a dad (that's gotta leave a mark). I mean, what I'm trying to say isn't that I hate him (ahem), but that one just has to keep a clear eye about these things. I'm just being flippant, though, 'cause to really discuss Draco (and why he's the queeniest queen in queendom) would... uh, take awhile, and it's more fun mocking him, I admit.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

He's a childish prat. A poncy melodramatic git. A... posh spoiled whiny delusional little twerp with Daddy issues, a mean streak three miles wide, an obsessive need for attention, two goons for 'best friends', a simpering bitch for a girlfriend, and a crazed megalomaniac for a dad (that's gotta leave a mark). I mean, what I'm trying to say isn't that I hate him (ahem), but that one just has to keep a clear eye about these things. I'm just being flippant, though, 'cause to really discuss Draco (and why he's the queeniest queen in queendom) would... uh, take awhile, and it's more fun mocking him, I admit.

Oh, well there's your problem.

No, he's not.:-)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Not a queen? Not a git? Not poncy, not melodramatic, not posh, not spoiled, not whiny, not delusional or nor, er, little? Ahahaha, yeah, I know :> Oh, y'mean, my problem is that it's more fun mocking him-- I mean, yeah, I do suspect that's it :D
...I think I'm just too lazy to do what you & malafede do so much better, so maybe I should just say, "nevermind, just ask sistermagpie" :D That's really the best solution to my little problem, I think :>

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Haha, I won't make you write me an essay, don't worry.^^ You actually (as I said in the other post) finally made me realise what was bothering me so much with a lot of the fics I've read. And i also think I should reread some fics I like to remind me that there are quite a few of them, heh.

Now, I don't think it has to be an either/or deal with Draco; he's not been as strong as Harry, but he thought he was, and after HBP I actually think they are, or at least approaching, equal ground. I emphatically agree that they weren't before.

As for the second part... I agree with about half of it.^^