[wait by the light of the moon]

[reenka]

Reading `The Art of Walking Backwards', which is shaping up to be a wonderful Bring Back Black fic, I'm thinking about the idea of Remus wanting to bring Sirius back for Harry, because he needs him-- because he shouldn't have to survive alone like Remus has had to, and....


I was just thinking how a large part of the 'justification' or philosophy for H/D had been that Harry is lonely-- that he needs someone who's all his, to keep, you know.... Especially because we all thought after Sirius, he'd be broken in some way and just like Remus thought in this fic, he couldn't take anymore, and you know-- he wasn't broken after all in HBP-- and then Dumbledore died, and yet no one really seems to think he'll be broken now, even though now he's lost even more. And he's learned to let go voluntarily, with Ginny, so theoretically he should be -more- shut off and emotionally barren, shouldn't he? Is this fodder, then, for the people who'd always claimed Harry has to go on alone, not paired with anyone, 'cause he's the hero (which I'd always strenuously disagreed with, 'cause that's just not JKR at all).

And yet-- and yet-- I think for all his losses and the strain, it's just hit me that... I don't think Harry's lonely at this point, not anymore. I think that's a large part of why I've been sort of at a standstill with my Harry characterization-- because where HBP ended, I think he realized what was important to him. He realized what he would fight for, and now he's not just rolling with the punches, he's not just taking it. I think he found a sense of purpose and control over his life which Remus never had, because he was a werewolf and powerless in ways Harry never was. Harry is not powerless, and even without his parents or Sirius or Dumbledore, he's not alone. He's not like Remus at all. He has Ron and Hermione, and he has a purpose, and he has the innate capability to win and defeat that which had made him powerless-- unlike Remus, he has an enemy he can actually fight, because the enemy isn't himself.

I keep feeling bewildered, on some level, by the people who see HBP through shippy glasses (forget H/Hr or H/D or R/Hr), because it wasn't about any of those to me-- and no, I don't mean it was H/Hr/R, except it was, but not that way. They faced a rift and they overcame it, and I really feel the three of them are stronger than ever, and the truth is, Harry doesn't need Ginny because he has them. Ginny's... nice, but not essential, and he knows it, and that's why he can let her go. That's why he can be strong and feel sad about Dumbledore without suppressing it-- because he's learned to lean a little, I think.

Just as Draco has had his world knocked out from under him, I think Harry has found his grounding at last, which has been there all along, of course. He knows where his strength is, and it's not that love is beside the point, it's that he has it. He didn't make the mistake James & Remus & Sirius made in mistrusting each other-- so he's all right the same way they would have been if they'd stuck together. He'll be okay.
    (And while I'm so happy for Harry, in ficcish terms... man, it couldn't be less inspiring.)
~~

Also, I'd just like to say, coldbeverage's Crabbe & Goyle are what they look like in my head, and why slash with either of them... um... puzzles me. Canon, baybe! Also, omg, Ron & Hermione arguing is just kind of... painfully cute. And woooowwww, nassima's Azkaban!Padfoot o_0 WHOAH. And actually, the whole hp_details comm is making me all wide-eyed, especially things like these visualizations of the four Common Rooms o_0 Now I want to write things set there! And zomg, Hogwarts! And Hogwarts lake! I think I might be a little obsessed... Ahhh, the Burrow...!..!.!!... I think I'm going to cry.
    OMG, this is... er... almost my Remus.... Or maybe this one by Ashley is closer. Um. There are so many at the Full Moony, and yet nothing totally fits. This one's definitely alpha!Remus-- you can sort of see him smoking a cigar and being droll, ahahah. Ashley's one S/R is really kinda hot, though. Possibly... possibly I love this Remus by Julie Thomson best. (Oh, and-- all the Remus pics, you'd have to copy & paste the link to see.) And then we have fools_trifle's S/R Celtic knot(!!!) ...aaand I'm done (for).

Comments

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

The Remus-ones are all bad links.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Um, okay, basically you have to copy the link (right-click & copy) and then paste into the browser & it works.

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

Oh, okay. Thanks!

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Er, hello, you don't know me. I got here via Hogwarts today, I think.

I really do see what you're getting at, though for me, shipping H/D has never been about Harry's loneliness. I've never really thought of him as a person suffering from being lonely, but that might be because I myself tend not to. When things are not made perfectly clear in canon it's sometimes hard not to project yourself onto the characters you like, haha.

I've always thought of Harry as very resilient, and prone to make the best out of a situation. Failing that, he uses a rather sarcastic sense of humour to cope. He's the kind of person to take what he can get, when he can get it (which is no doubt an effect of his childhood at the Dursley's) but can manage quite well on his own. And anyway, is it really healthy to want to have a relationship just because you're lonely? I think it's better this way. Except for when you are in the mood for some kinky Harry/Snape I guess, haha.

I do agree with you about him learning to lean a little on the people he's close to and I think that's a very good thing. It's clear who's most important to him at this point (Regardless of authorial intent the text still reads like his relationship with Ginny is a superficial crush in my opinion).

H/D is my OTP, but I ship them because I feel like they'd be a good match. Possibly I think this because I've watched too much anime where this type of interaction between characters that usually end up as best friends as well as rivals is very common, haha. :) I was honestly expecting Draco to be the one who would become Harry's best friend when I started reading the first book, and spent most of the rest of the book trying to adjust my mind to what was actually happening, instead of what I felt should be happening.

I did find a lot of subtext for them in HBP though. Or well, maybe not a lot, but I felt that Harry finally realised that Draco was as human as himself, and in fact not happy about killing, and that Draco finally realised the truth about the Death Eaters. I felt that they would finally be able to meet on equal ground and leave their childish fighting behind them. I'm not expecting them to like each other right away (and in canon they might never do) but they are finally in a position where they can start connecting in some way.

Of course, since I detest top!Harry I've probably condemned myself to never reading another decent fanfic ever again... Well, except for mistful's of course, heh.

Well, it's late, so I've probably veered away from the subject of the post by now... so sorry for rambling away like this in you lj. I just can't resist a discussion on Harry, I guess!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think I largely do agree with you, actually. I don't think most people ship H/D because Harry's lonely or anything-- and I definitely agree that he doesn't actually suffer from it in canon (though I think a number of people feel he does because they would and feel sorry for him anyway), an yeah, he uses sarcasm to deal with things, but-- I was just saying that I often see him (in H/D fics) latching on to Draco as something he can have all for himself. Also, I think the loneliness thing was supposed (in post-OoTP fanon) to have been exacerbated by Sirius dying and his grief & all that. While he'd largely dealt okay with things in canon, a number of people thought (as in the fic I linked) that Harry would finally snap after Sirius' death in some way-- that it would be too much. And, in fact, I don't know if canon dealt with why that -didn't- happen to my satisfaction, exactly.

I do ship H/D because I think they're a good match, though less so post-HBP than before, though I see the potential for equality; it's just that the emotional spark (the need for recognition in Draco's case & avoidance/defeat in Harry's case) between them isn't what it once was. But I wasn't trying to argue that one way or another, since it's a matter of interpretation & opinion. I certainly don't see any move away from top!Draco merely because of HBP (I think people like that regardless of canon, since I suspect most people don't care about little things like canon when it comes to smut and who tops who). However, I believe Maya writes switch!Draco who mostly bottoms, when she writes smut, which she mostly doesn't ;) And just as a personal aside, while I can see ways to make canon!Harry bottom, I really don't see many ways to make canon!Draco a top. I mean. Okay, I shouldn't get started, I tend to rant and/or insult Draco when it comes to this subject :>

I was never saying people shipped H/D -just because- Harry was seen as lonely, but rather that it was a part of what supposedly made Draco 'fit' Harry because it made Harry need him (the way Draco already obviously was desperate for his attention). Although I can easily see why Draco would never be Harry's friend in canon-- he really is a lot like Dudley :>

[joyfulgirl1013.livejournal.com]

Here from the h/d_prophet.

I think it's definitely true that Harry really did need something all his own, though, because if you look at it...Ginny really was. In the way that, Harry knows everything about EVERYTHING about her life. He knows all of her friends because they're his friends, he knows of all her interests because they're his interests, he knows her whole family because it's practically his family. I think that's part of the reason I sort of objected to their relationship, and part of why it felt so...unequal(?) for me. Because Harry sort of had all of her, but at the end, when he goes over to the Trio and just sort of leaves her there, you realize that she'll sort of never have all of him.

I don't know. There's this whole big part of Harry's life that I think no one can really claim to know, but that after HBP Draco knows better than most, and that's his whole fight with Voldemort. It's like...I hate to fall back on Buffy, but I feel like it's sort of like, his friends can take him as far as they can take him, and love is what will motivate him, and so in that way, he won't be alone in what he does, but...it's like Ginny said, he'll always be chasing Voldemort. And it's this very personal, very private struggle for him, and I think that's what's going to hold him apart. He'll lean on people, but he won't lean on them as much because rather than being dragged into doing something he doesn't want to do, he's now made the conscious choice to fight for what he wants, and that's a very personal thing that every has to do for themselves.

The interesting thing about H/D post HBP is that JKR has already given us the most important part of the story, but it's a mixed blessing. Because I think that generally in H/D that moment of seeing has to be accompanied by a rush of emotion, and that rush has to be more than the simple shock we were presented with. And if it's not...it's not. It's like...Harry sees Draco and wants to know more; we were presented with a Harry who saw Draco and then hooked up with Ginny and didn't forget Draco, but did try to put him out of his mind. So....yeah.

Running to class. All I could come up with at the moment. ;)

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Its' true, in fanfic Harry often does latch on to Draco. Often in a way that more or less excludes the other people in his life, but I've personally never thought that it was very IC for Harry. Though I know most people disagree with me on that, heh.

I'm actually still not sure what to think about Harry's behaviour in HBP regarding Sirius' death.

I think that maybe you and I ship H/D for different reasons. I've never seen their antagonism as a reason for them to bond, but rather an obstacle for them to overcome; something that prevents them from getting to know each other. I really liked how Maya described their relationship in "Underwater light", because I too think they need a lot of time and work before they can really be a couple.

When it comes to who tops, it's not actually their behaviour when they're having sex that concerns me, but rather their behaviour in the fic overall. I just don't like it when the relationship is unequal I guess. And I don't find ity very IC for either of them to be an extreme top. Or bottom for that matter.

And just as a personal aside, while I can see ways to make canon!Harry bottom, I really don't see many ways to make canon!Draco a top. I mean. Okay, I shouldn't get started, I tend to rant and/or insult Draco when it comes to this subject :>

Hey, that sounds interesting! I really love a good discussion, and I'm certainly not convinced that my anwers are necessarily the right ones. I think it's possible to write both Harry and Draco in several different ways and still be true to canon; it all depends on how you look at the hints that are presented to us.

I was never saying people shipped H/D -just because- Harry was seen as lonely, but rather that it was a part of what supposedly made Draco 'fit' Harry because it made Harry need him (the way Draco already obviously was desperate for his attention).

I see what you mean, and that's certainly a believabel way of making a relationship between them. Just not the way I like. :)

On a side note, I found it incredibly funny how their roles switched in HBP - suddenly Harry was the one obsessively stalking Draco.

Although I can easily see why Draco would never be Harry's friend in canon-- he really is a lot like Dudley :>

Yes, as things are (or were? HBP ended a bit ambigously in regards to the Harry/Draco relationship) I certainly agree. I just thought that in the beginning there was a channce for things to be different. And now, when they both have realised some truths, there is a chance again for them to connect.

The difference between Dudley and Draco is mostly their intelligence, I think. Draco actually realises how bad things were getting, while I think Dudley would have gone along with it a lot easier. Though that's mostly guesswork, since we're not told a lot about Dudley.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on like this yet again, but I find it hard to express what I mean, so thats' why I become so wordy, haha. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of spinning off of the comments here as well, but I wonder if the difference with Draco wasn't ever that Harry was lonely but that Draco is so...demanding. I mean, Harry relies on Hermione and Ron and he has Ginny but they have always been satellites orbiting him. Ron and Hermione know when they have to back off, they spend lots of time discussing what's the best way to help Harry or deal with him. In HBP it becomes less about Harry but they still see themselves as having signed on to help him in his quest--there's no jealousy that Harry is the one having meetings with DD. They are just happy that now they know Harry will share what he learns with them (at least to a point--I'm not so sure there aren't a lot of things Harry doesn't share with them).

Ginny is basically there as the perfect...whatever you call it. She always says the right thing to either comfort Harry, make him feel better, defend him, kick his arse. She wins Quidditch for him when he's doing something else. When he has to break up with her she completely understands and she's going to wait for him.

And that's the problem, from an H/D pov. Draco, by definition, is demanding. It's not, I don't think, that he's completely selfish. He wanted to prove himself a good friend for Harry to have even early on (I can connect you to the right people). As a character he's really desperate to prove himself to the people he looks up to and be seen as useful (I love his "I've got a job to do" in the Tower--he wants to excel at his job; even Harry notices how well he responds to DD treating his mission that way and praising how competent he's been).

But he's not a sidekick, exactly, or if he is, he's a difficult one. One of the unique things about Draco's role in HBP, imo, is that it's a story that actually rivals Harry's in its intensity. Ron and Hermione have been given subplot stories in the books--Hermione liking Ron, Ron worrying about Quidditch--but basically they're just helping Harry or being normal students. Draco's the other kid who's actually pressed into service of the main plot. He's trying to save his family, forced to kill or be killed, all that stuff.

What that means obviously isn't that he's the main character, but that he could be-he's the main character of his own story. That, to me, is a big difference in post-HBP H/D. Previously it was always considered fanon to give Draco big questions to wrestle with, but now it isn't. He really does have his own equally intense storyline having to do with some of the things Harry is dealing with as well, in other ways. So that makes Draco a very different lover if he's going to be that. Unlike any of the other people in Harry's life, Draco (and how ironic is this after 5 books of "Draco is obsessed with Harry and Harry doesn't care?") is *not* centered around him. He's not there to help him or be his friend. He could do those things, but he's also going to demand something in return. They'd be two different people with their own stuff to deal with who found a way to come together, not Harry and Harry's best friend/best girl.

That could be good for Harry. To get back to the lonely idea, I've been re-reading one of my favorite books lately and there's a relationship that reminds me of it here, it's like...it's not that Harry is lonely, but Draco actually is possibly more likely to violate him in ways other characters aren't. It's not that Ginny doesn't tell him off when she thinks he needs it; it's not about her being too whimpy or whatever. But in HBP Draco did climb more to the level of messy stuff and would probably go further than just kicking Harry's arse in the way he needs. Like how in HBP Harry catches Draco in the middle of a breakdown, but it's not a scene about comfort or respect for feelings. Harry winds up gutting him, literally, and slipping in the gore and covered in Draco's blood. It's just a whole other level of intensity of feeling and violation. Draco demands more of Harry and always will.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I think people like that regardless of canon, since I suspect most people don't care about little things like canon when it comes to smut and who tops who

Hee! But there can be no canon when it comes to smut. Top!Harry is as OOC as Top!Draco when you're looking at it canonically.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't need to say anything, I'll just wait for malafede...

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, I think me and her may have had this discussion! ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It just looks a lot more mature if someone -else- says 'but Draco Malfoy is Harry Potter's bitch, yo!!1'... though sadly, she wouldn't say that... alas....

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I may have to plead with magpie for reinforcements.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I believe she's the one that has once referred to Draco as Harry's kitten.... ahem....

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Far be it from me to ever imply whatever the H/D fandom does in fics is remotely IC. Ahem. So anything I said about fandom should be taken as 'well, clearly I'm not endorsing it, however it does exist'-- which perhaps doesn't shed light upon anything much, but allows me to subtly poke fun at fandom, if you see what I'm saying. Regardless, I agree it'd be OOC, theoretically, to have Harry shut out Ron & Hermione & so on, but that never stopped anyone, and neither do I think most people think v. long about characterization before they write it.

I even agree with you about Harry & Draco not being extreme tops in terms of what's IC-- though I can see the ultra!bottom thing with Draco, um, yeah, at least when it comes to being able (though surely willing) to top Harry-- but as I said, people write that regardless of canon. And I don't think who tops has to do with their behavior in the fic overall if you wrote realistically, but yeah-- ultra!bottom wimpy!Draco would be canon would be annoying (yet canon), um... I mean, where was I....

Yeah, it's frustrating to have their relationship be unequal/uneven, but it kind of is for starters (even in HBP, just differently, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). And it -is- a long journey to equilibrium/understanding between them, and that -is- what I'm interested in... it's just you can't expect to start out with that and to only have them have sex once they understand each other (they're boys, y'know). It's because of that length of time that I don't see Harry bottom to Draco anytime near the beginning of their relationship-- the trust is going to take a while. And I -reeeeeeally- don't see Draco um, forcing his desires upon Harry in any way. At all. Any time soon. I think for Draco, bottoming could be an assertion of power-- I mean, he could see it as capitulation, as attention, as possession-- while for Harry, his relationship with control & other people is different.

If you're talking UL, while I adore it, the Draco in it has a rather different attitude towards Harry than he does in canon, and Harry is rather more easily smitten with Draco's amazing snarky godliness than I think he's remotely likely to be. Something (like UST) would have to push them beyond friendship, anyway, and that's something that would bring them together as well as pull them apart-- that's sort of something I like about H/D. I don't want them to keep the antagonism, per se, but I think they're very different people who'll never fully understand each other, realistically, and they'll always get on each other's nerves, and they're very likely to be dysfunctional-- all okay by me. There's a difference between being a -stable- couple (which I'm not interested in, necessarily) and just... um, having a 'thing', and also sex, and even an understanding/bond of semi-friendship.

Though as I said... um... I think I'm too set in my ways and/or militant to have a reasonable discussion about bottom vs top!Draco~:) You can write them in different ways, but I can honestly tell you I've never read a wholly top (not switch) Draco with Harry that made a lick of sense to me.

I agree HBP ended with more potential in terms of understanding and realization between them-- I just don't know about more potential for sparks and intense neediness and obsessive violent possessive love-- which I do ship H/D for, as well as that moment of seeing between them. So yes, while our reasons intersect, they also diverge. If I just wanted understanding, I wouldn't need romance-- I'd write friendship fics-- which is actually what I'm interested in post-HBP. As for Dudley-- hah, well, Harry thought 'he's just like Dudley' minutes after meeting him in Madame Malkin's... so there really wasn't that much of a chance.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's true that Ginny was 'something all his own'-- I mean, if we learned nothing else in HBP, we know that Harry's a possessive bastard. And yeah... I haven't thought of it that way, but I guess he -does- have all of Ginny while she's never going to have him, really, though... it might change a bit after their relationship deepens with time & Ron&Hermione become more of a couple after the Voldy thing is done. I mean, this is just the beginning of his & Ginny's relationship-- though I suspect it's going to be something like James&Lily vs James' relationship with Sirius & Remus. They can all occupy different places and make a nice mosaic and be part of a unit eventually (until it all went to hell in the Marauders' case).

I do think Voldemort is a 'personal, private struggle', I just don't think he's as overwhelmed/alone in it anymore, if that makes sense-- he's a driven individual, but he's learned his lesson about friendship and stuff like that. Or started to. He really -does- (always has) needed Ron & Hermione to get anything done ever since first year, ahahaha. Man, he'd have died in the cradle if not for his mom... I think the books pretty much keep repeating that Harry needs people, independent lone hero that he is :> He's not The Slayer like Buffy is-- I mean, he's the Chosen One too (ha!) but that's more of a meaningless title in Harry's case, only there because he & Voldy chose to acknowledge it (as Dumbledore said). He chooses more than he is chosen-- I think that was the point. Or something. At least in terms of authorial intent.

You're right-- that 'moment of seeing' -is- something that's supposed to be the providence of H/D fics, and it happened in HBP (and that's why I'm sort of meh on H/D at the moment, but nevermind)-- and yeah, it's generally supposed to be more than the shock. But I think just shock is more realistic, because hello, they're not actually omg-so-in-lust, y'know (which is why all the HBP fic rewriting 6th year to put them in lust pisses me off like crazy). Subtext is subtext, but it is not text; wanting to know more like 'what'll Malfoy do now' shouldn't be surprising or even subtexty; he wasn't interested for no good reason and thus we have to look for the omg-slashy reason. Ahhh, this is my perpetual cross to bear.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean about Draco demanding more-- well, not just because of plot reason in HBP but simply because he's more demanding of attention and doesn't care about what Harry needs, doesn't have that (love?) that makes other people try to help Harry and/or make things easier for him. Not that Ron or Hermione or Ginny always do the -obvious- thing or let him off the hook, but yeah, they make things easier by trying to get where he's coming from, how he feels, what he wants. Um, well, that's what friends do.... And Draco doesn't care, he's got a completely different role-- he's actually a lot less likely to consider what it's like for Harry and feel sympathy/pity than Harry is for him. Which is possibly JKR's point in some ways, not sure....

But yeah, they certainly climb to a higher level of intensity, no holds barred (and man, I wish more people mentioned Draco's attempted Crucio rather than just dwelling on the Sectumsempra). Even if there's pity Harry feels in canon, it's a sort of cold pity, I think-- because, well, the heat is all negative. They drive each other crazy, push each other's buttons, force each other to react-- and that's not controllable, not necessarily helpful (though it can be)-- it's just a violent force that can end up being for the best in the end. I mean, of course I like that violence, but it's... it's not a rational relationship. There's no respect for feelings possibly because all they do is feel without a buffer/sieve of an established friendship/acquaintance-- it's just... raw, and their feelings about each other are um, personal/selfish/not connected. Like, how Harry feels about Draco and how Draco feels about Harry is about -them-, is private, isn't something they share or communicate-- they're not satellites , yeah, because they're in different star systems altogether, sometimes violently colliding. With Draco being upset that Harry's star system gets more traffic, and Harry being upset it's the wrong kind of system.

In H/D fic, I think the point is usually that things would be better for both of them if their systems either merged or changed-- that they should stop being so separate. It's true that in canon, Draco's got his own storyline-- but that totally separates him from Harry except in however that line intersects in practical terms and what they consequently need from each other-- a sort of consumerist approach, maybe. I think when people start a real relationship, their lines intersect more and more but don't merge-- and in that sense Harry & Draco's 'model' is more realistic 'cause who in the world has sidekicks? But then, most people whose paths and temperaments diverge just let them do so gladly after they're not forced in contact. Meaning, neither Harry nor Draco seem likely to seek each other out at this point for any personal reason-- and I still believe that while personal reasons affected Harry's obsessive focus on Draco's being 'up to no good' in HBP, it wasn't that he was obsessed with Draco as a person but what he did in a specific circumstance. Whereas you could make an argument Draco used to be obsessed with Harry in general.

But I love that whole thing about violation. Man, that will never stop being sexy.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I actually did almost bring up Draco's Crucio because I think that's equally violating. The reason I didn't is partially all the stuff I just wrote about that curse--for the boys when they throw that curse it's more about *wanting* to cast it than being able to. But if Draco had thrown a Crucio I think it would be very much like the Sectumsempra in being more violating. He wants Harry writhing at his feet, and seeing Harry in that state makes Harry very vulnerable. Both curses, if done correctly, would reduce the other person, I think. I mean, Neville can take a Crucio with a lot of dignity, but I think if Draco were actually able to cast it on Harry Harry would be all sexily in agony and then, when Draco was sort of tranxfixed by that, he'd probably grab his wand and hit Draco back.

The main thing is that obviously none of Harry's friends would even think of casting a Crucio at him because he's always whole with them. Even when they're angry at him they don't really want to see him hurt. Draco would want to crack him open, just as Harry wants to do to Draco.

They drive each other crazy, push each other's buttons, force each other to react-- and that's not controllable, not necessarily helpful (though it can be)-- it's just a violent force that can end up being for the best in the end. I mean, of course I like that violence, but it's... it's not a rational relationship. There's no respect for feelings possibly because all they do is feel without a buffer/sieve of an established friendship/acquaintance-- it's just... raw, and their feelings about each other are um, personal/selfish/not connected.

See, I actually can see them progressing beyond that after HBP. I didn't think Harry's pity of Draco was necessarily strictly cold or that they necessarily still just drove each other crazy. There's a couple of times when they interact in HBP where there's more control and light-heartedness than there ever has been, imo. When they lose control it's sometimes more the situation than a personal hatred for the other person, I thought.

Meaning, neither Harry nor Draco seem likely to seek each other out at this point for any personal reason-- and I still believe that while personal reasons affected Harry's obsessive focus on Draco's being 'up to no good' in HBP, it wasn't that he was obsessed with Draco as a person but what he did in a specific circumstance. Whereas you could make an argument Draco used to be obsessed with Harry in general.

I think Harry was drawn to Draco as a person beyond just what he was up to, myself.:-) I mean, he was trying to figure out what he was up to, that was his focus. He wasn't wondering about who he was eating lunch with or anything. But that's the way Harry had always been with Draco. This was the book, imo, where it became about Harry having interest in Draco as a person beyond what Draco was up to and Draco being a bad guy--and that inspired Harry to make contact with him as he never had before.

Draco's own interest in Harry I can see being much the same way, that it did start out being about what Potter was up to and getting him in trouble, and that led to an interest or knowledge about Harry personally.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, a lot of what I said about Harry&Draco losing control around each other was more pre-HBP than anything... it's hard for me to integrate HBP canon, partly 'cause I just don't want to and partly 'cause I have to keep fighting against the dampening effect it has on me (sort of like thinking about HBP!H/D is... um, the equivalent of a heavy tranquilizer or something-- my mind goes jellylike). I was more saying I wish -other- people remembered the attempted Crucio more and didn't keep painting Draco as the total victim, but I think that's a lost cause. I totally agree it's more about -wanting- to cast it with both of them, rather than being ready to deal with the consequences-- and I love the idea that they want to reduce each other and stomp on each other (omg, hahahah, I love seeing the face-stomping as equivalent to the Quidditch fight)-- though I don't actually think Harry wants Draco to writhe at his feet (anymore). I find it interesting that you (sort of) said that Draco would enjoy Harry in pain in a way Harry didn't enjoy the aftereffects of Sectumsempra-- I mean, that's probably true, in that Draco does feel more frustrated & powerless. Though in the case of the face-stomping, he did his gloat and moved on, didn't draw it out or anything-- like he wanted to make a point but not stay and watch Harry writhe. Maybe he wasn't angry enough :>

I really wonder if at this point Harry wants to see Draco hurt-- I mean, Draco attacked first, and Harry was on the defensive. Both their confrontations, Harry was curious & Draco was violent (heeee!! turnabout! makes me happy, um). I also wonder if it's that he wants Harry hurt (beyond breaking his nose) or he just reacts overreacts to perceived threat from Harry. I wonder if he'd have tried to cast Crucio on someone else (who wasn't a friend-- or even if) in that situation. I mean, would he have done it to Ron? Hermione? Seamus?

Heh, yeah, I know what you mean about light-heartedness, like during the Apparation exam and when they first got to Madam Malkin's (though the 'Remedial Potions' thing and the Polyjuice incident in second year were both light-hearted-- that is, there was always that aspect to their interaction). I think they're both curious/interested to a certain extent, yeah, but even so I never get a sense they like each other even secretly, so in Harry's case, perhaps it's a weird mix of detached concern/pity & vague guilt on some level (unconscious). It's not that I was saying there was always dense personal hatred, like with Sirius&Snape or something (I mean, in the bathroom scene, that was overreacting/circumstantial, yeah, and similarly with the Quidditch fight)-- that's what I meant, actually, that it wasn't entirely personal, that they didn't communicate/share their feelings enough to make it personal rather than private. If that makes sense.

With Draco being interested in what Harry was up to & getting him in trouble-- yeah-- but the interest came more... um... naturally? He came up with it spontaneously (like, as soon as he saw him in the robe-shop and again on the train when he found out who Harry was-- like, Harry couldn't care less who Draco was unless confronted), in other words, rather than reacting. Harry reacts to Draco, Draco demands reaction from Harry-- that's how it's been until HBP, that's the difference between them and uh, why I shipped H/D. In HBP, finally Draco was distracted and Harry showed that he could overreact/fixate too, because he sort of pegs Draco as 'suspicious bad-guy' or whatever-- and because he just personally doesn't like him/thinks he's up to something bad. Just like in a lot of H/D fics (some I wrote!)-- when Draco gets quiet, Harry gets suspicious, and we see that he -is- actually watching Draco back. But like, for different reasons than Draco watches Harry. Though that's sort of antishippy of me.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, fandom remains as black and white as ever on the bathroom (and every) scene. Either it's just that Draco was crying and Harry came in and stabbed him or it's that Draco, totally unprovoked, tried to Crucio Harry and Harry was just trying to defend himself. ::shakes head::

I find it interesting that you (sort of) said that Draco would enjoy Harry in pain in a way Harry didn't enjoy the aftereffects of Sectumsempra-- I mean, that's probably true, in that Draco does feel more frustrated & powerless.

Did I say that? I didn't meant to! What I meant more was just that that would be the actual effect of Crucio if Draco were able to cast it--I think it would be much like Harry and the Sectumsempra that Draco would be like, "Whoa!" if it actually worked. And since it's Crucio I think Harry would be able to recover and hex him back whereas with Sectumsempra it was pretty much just lie there, twitch and bleed. Crucio wouldn't have had any permanant effects like that spell did, which is why Harry was first shocked and then saying, "No." Because he just meant for Draco to get off him and maybe hurt.

So it seems like in throwing Crucio Draco's just trying to throw pain at Harry--all the stuff he feels about what he's going through, really. He throws it the same way Harry throws it at Snape--I don't think he's throwing it because he wants to see Snape writhing at his feet so much as--well, like I said recently on my lj, I think Crucio, for boys Harry's age, is just the "I hate you!" spell. In order for Draco to seriously relish Harry in this kind of pain, in a sadistic way, I think he'd need a lot more experience. I've heard people casually assume Draco's good at Crucio, but I actually think this might be his first time seriously trying it, just as Harry's first time was with Bellatrix.

As to Sectumsempra, they're two different spells so I can't say they're thrown with exactly the same intent, but it's similar. The two spells more closely mirror the emotional state either boy is in. Draco's more in a tizzy here, what with being caught, and worried he's going to die, and probably thinking Harry has never been alone and felt this kind of pressure. Harry isn't angry when the fight starts because he's still reacting to Draco crying. I think if it were someone else Draco wouldn't have cast Crucio but just hexed them with something else. I mean, he'd have to be tough on whoever it was because he was crying, but I don't think he'd have been that maddened by the sight of them. (Also, let's face it, if it had been any of those people Draco probably would have knocked them out with his first hex-including Hermione. This is one of those "non-textbook" fights Snape and Harry like.)

Also I think we shouldn't completely think of Harry being the only one on the defensive. He is, literally, obviously, but I suspect when Draco saw Harry he felt on the defensive too. He's got good reason to think that Harry is out to get him. In fact, this is even the first book where we hear, from Narcissa's pov, that Harry is always "attacking her son." So I think we should definitely see Draco's action of spinning around and hexing Harry as something he thinks of as defensive--he's not going to let Potter get the drop on him, as Harry would. He's desperate. Once they start fighting the inability for one to top the other just takes over, I think.

I think they're both curious/interested to a certain extent, yeah, but even so I never get a sense they like each other even secretly, so in Harry's case, perhaps it's a weird mix of detached concern/pity & vague guilt on some level (unconscious).

Yeah, I agree. They can't secretly like each other because they literally do not know each other. They now know stuff *about* each other, like Harry now has more of a sense of a Slytherin life and connections, just as Draco knows Harry stays with the Weasleys on holidays, but in another sense their animosity has never been personal because they've barely had a conversation (I don't think trash talk counts).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

(con't)

because he sort of pegs Draco as 'suspicious bad-guy' or whatever-- and because he just personally doesn't like him/thinks he's up to something bad.

Though actually Harry has good reason to think he's up to something that's kind of a little based on Harry thinking what he would do. I mean, not literally that Draco is doing what he would do, but sort of like in PoA when Draco talks about what he would do about Sirius Black "if it were my family." It's not that R&Hr disagree with Harry that Malfoy is up to something--that's a known fact. They just don't think it could be something that dangerous. But where Harry's pov is different seems to be sort of connected to his own pov. Everyone keeps telling him a 16-year-old couldn't be involved in the kind of stuff Harry is thinking about, but Harry knows that he is 16 and he is involved. He sees Draco as "taking his father's place." Harry can imagine doing that, can imagine Draco doing that, while other people can't.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, people casually assume a lot of things-- like, I know it's likely Draco has the Dark Mark, but it's -possible- he doesn't (and I know I'm too invested 'cause of my stupid longfic, but)... yeah, everything I'd read has him with the Mark and totally settled with being a Death Eater. But, um, yes-- I can easily see them just throwing the curses at each other as if they were words, still too inexperienced to fully connect them with actions. I think it's that you said he 'wants Harry writhing at his feet'-- I forgot to differentiate between 'thinks he wants' and 'would actually enjoy in reality'-- 'cause, I mean, in theory he wanted Dumbledore dead, but in practice, not so much.... (Even Snape seemed to throw him off the Tower with the AK rather than just making him keel over? Not sure if that's how AK works in its pure form...)

I'm wondering why you think if it was someone else he'd have knocked them out--? Do we have evidence he'd gotten that much better at hexes--? I mean, it seems like we know Ginny's Really Good & so is Harry (and Hermione knows the theory), but I think if Draco was That Good, Slughorn would've taken notice. I dunno. Though I don't think Ginny fights by the textbook either (maybe that's just a Gryffindor thing in general). It makes sense that he'd just hex other people, though. And oh, I didn't mean that Harry was the only one on the defensive, just that, well, Draco attacked where Harry wouldn't have-- though obviously he didn't know that (probably). I mean, that bit about 'attacking her son' sounds like part exaggeration (though Harry does beat up on him a lot)... I mean, it's sort of like the Snape vs. the Marauders thing where it's just their tactics are different, most likely. I don't think he seriously feels, um, victimized by Harry.

I think I meant that about them not secretly liking each other as a way of explaining why I said Harry's pity was 'cold' (that is, not backed up by some warm human feeling that'd come from, um, liking a person on some level, feeling warmly sympathetic). Not that he's an uncaring bastard but that it's kind of impersonal.... Which just sounds weird, but...

And I definitely always insisted Harry has good reason to think he's up to something! Omg, that's been my spiel for ages now, and I've felt so alone~:)) Everyone and their mother seems to want to write off Harry's suspicions as signs he's omg-so-hot for Draco. This is like, a large reason of why I've grown to seriously resent HBP canon. -.- There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, as in, it rots fangirls' brains. Not that it takes much ^^; It makes total sense to me that he'd take Draco seriously when it came to it, even though he was so dismissive in OoTP, 'cause in the end Harry knows (without realizing it) where Draco's coming from. That sort of... willingness to do next to anything when pushed right. I think they're both desperados in different ways :D Ron & Hermione are really just so sensible in their way, hehe.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Fanfic doesn't need to be IC to be entertaining. ;)

I do see why you see Draco's character like you do - I even agree that there are things in canon that support it! I myself have trouble deciding about him though, because to me we haven't got enough information to know for sure. I also tend to focus more on Harry (and mostly my complaints on characterisation in fics with bottom!Draco has to do with how Harry's portrayed) and you should hear me when I start on him... well, anyway, we all have different ways of "filling in the blanks" on Dracos' character. I think he has a lot of pride, and that he himself does think that he's on equal terms with Harry. Why else would he go after him the way he does? Or did, as things are, I guess.

I think there's room in fanon for several interpretations. :) I just ilke to discuss these things, since I often get new information and views I hadn't considered earlier when I do. But if you dislike it, please tell me and I'll stop! Things aren't always conveyed very well over the net, and I have learned that not everyone is as fond of these sort of discussions as I am. :)

Anyway, to continue... When it comes to a relationship between them, I think that they probably need to be friends first - or that at least Harry needs to feel that they are. He still has issues, though they've gotten a bit better, and would probably hesitate for a long time before letting anyone that close. I don't think Draco would act this way though, so he'd probably get a bti frustrated, heh. :) As for the bottoming... well, I'm really not certain. Harry does have intimacy issues (I suspect he does anyway - we're not shown that much in canon, and I would have liked to see how he behaves in a relationship... we didn't even get to see it even though he was in a relationship, and that really bugged me)that I don't think Draco has, which gives Draco the upper hand of sorts in a relationship. Though he might very well use it to choose to bottom for all I know, hah.

Another thing people have mentioned in essays I've read is their respective childhoods and how it would affect their relationship. The thing I always end up disagreeing with is that Harry would top since he's always been controlled all his life, and thgat Draco would bottom because he's always been in control of his life. I've always thought that Harry's been forced to look after himself most of his life (which is why he have trouble trusting adults) while Draco has been taken care of all his life and have lead a rather protected life.

Overall I have a much clearer view of Harry's character, than of Draco's. And I can go on at length about it, so beware! :)

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but it seems I exceeded the word count...

If you're talking UL, while I adore it, the Draco in it has a rather different attitude towards Harry than he does in canon, and Harry is rather more easily smitten with Draco's amazing snarky godliness than I think he's remotely likely to be.

Oh, I agree completely. What I like about that story is mainly the pacing, you see. :)

Something (like UST) would have to push them beyond friendship, anyway, and that's something that would bring them together as well as pull them apart-- that's sort of something I like about H/D. I don't want them to keep the antagonism, per se, but I think they're very different people who'll never fully understand each other, realistically, and they'll always get on each other's nerves, and they're very likely to be dysfunctional-- all okay by me.

Except for the dysfunctional part I agree completely. There is a tension between them that I relly like, and it doesn't have to be full-blown antagonism to be interesting. I see this all the time in anime, and those couples tend to be the most popular in fanfic. They also tend to be friends in canon, which is an interesting difference. They also tend to be close to the personality types of Harry and Draco, though more markedly Gryffindor/Slytherin coded.

Though as I said... um... I think I'm too set in my ways and/or militant to have a reasonable discussion about bottom vs top!Draco~:) You can write them in different ways, but I can honestly tell you I've never read a wholly top (not switch) Draco with Harry that made a lick of sense to me.

Haha, I understand; I guess I'm like that with Harry! :) And I've read too little fanfiction lately to really know what's out there, but all I've glance at has had willowy, pale and short Draco who's seduced by Harry's rugged handsomeness and this just cracks me up. I mean, I've always thought of them as being the same size! And both rather short and skinny. Oh, and wasn't Draco taller than Harry in HBP? Though I might be misremembering... Anyway, those fics just seems so... romance-novelly, if you know what I mean. Which has lead to me no longer being able to read a fic where Harry is taller than Draco, heh. :)

As for Dudley-- hah, well, Harry thought 'he's just like Dudley' minutes after meeting him in Madame Malkin's... so there really wasn't that much of a chance.

Yeah, Harry has a bit of a gut reaction to spoiled behaviour. I still like the "what if" scenarios though!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--I know you knew Harry had good reason to suspect. I have heard your spiel! I am listening!:-)

I'm wondering why you think if it was someone else he'd have knocked them out--? Do we have evidence he'd gotten that much better at hexes--?

After I wrote that I wondered why I thought it-and I may do a whole post on it, but yeah, I do think he'd have knocked out anybody else because--the short version--is that Draco and Harry are currently the only students who operate on the sink or swim level of DA now. I think the idea is that you learn them better when you have to, which is why so many students learn more in Harry's practical DA class than outside of it. But even that is a classroom setting. What Harry has that they don't is a sense of what it's really like when you're in danger.

So it just seems wrong to me to consider this a question of Draco getting good at hexing. Ginny is good at hexing. Harry is more than good at hexing, because Harry has learned defense with his life at stake. I think that's the idea in this scene as well. Last year Draco couldn't grab his wand before Harry not just, I think, because of practice like the DA (after all, the DA didn't seem to concentrate on quick draw) but because Harry is jumpy having had to actually have things at stake. That's what I think is going on in the scene with Draco. He's not showing how good he is at hexing, he's more on the edge.

In any other scene, of course the fabulous Ginny would hex him first because she can't lose to anyone, but that's why it's important it's not Ginny walking into the bathroom. She hexed him in the past and proved her girlpower, but having somebody else do it here would completely destroy his storyline. Actually, it's a lot like the whole Quidditch thing. If Harry's the best ever, and Harry's having trouble with him, then yes, I think you have to assume the skill level is high here.