Well, ahahah, it's not so much people being mean to him as him being messed up and deluded-- I think that's the difference in our approaches. I don't go for Draco-pity or sympathy or poor-poor-boy whatever... he's a fucking bastard and his life sucks, that's pretty much how it is. I think that's why I'm so wibbly about this fic's reception-- I know people like angst, but they like the character to suffer likably, if you know what I mean-- sympathetically, where the character may deserve it or not, but at least you can feel for him, right....
In my case, my Draco definitely fights back against any reader pity or whatever-- he's a victim of circumstance, sure, but mostly he brings it on hismelf and resists help, and it's not that anyone hurts him (bleh, sympathy-mongering) but that he hurts himself the most. I wouldn't even say Voldemort is 'mean' to him, or Harry. I mean, not that they're nice, but no one goes out of their way to hurt Draco. I'm not saying his sucky life is his fault, precisely, but... he's just a loser. And a bastard. And this goes on for like, 50+ pages ^^;;;
... I knew that essay was going to be misunderstood, but I wrote it anyway 'cause I owed cordelia_v. I guess people read the essay form on lj as not a reading of fics (and a variety of them) but equate them as your fic manifesto, and don't see much of a difference between the two approaches. Which, I guess, as everyone's doing it, misunderstanding was bound to happen. As I wrote on 'abused!Draco' and sympathy I was taken as one of the people who wanted that written in my fic. I find it with a lot of my students and their approaches to fiction - their essays start out as 'trying to figure out life' and what the protagonist 'should do' instead of a critical reading that in ways incorporate the writer's position but balance it with analysis.
but then the question remains, is reader sympathy only reserved for extreme 'boo hoo' cases (which I think it isn't, and in which case I think is an extremely coarse manipulation of responses, though I can see it happening and enjoy them as well)? When someone resists help, fights back, brings on consequences through his own stubbornness, isn't that a case for finding it more interesting, not because it's a pity party, but because it's not, and find that something you'd like to work with more? I like reading about stubborn bastards and writing them too. I'm sometimes at a loss with responses like 'o no! Draco's all hurt! Have Harry save him!' which I balk at.
Man! ^^;; Sorry! From my own devices, I wouldn't have really read into that essay much, but it was linked to me & everyone's responses probably colored my understanding (...especially since I only skimmed it... er...). Normally, I hate that whole 'should' interpretation of literature like you wouldn't believe (and pretty much any and all cases of blatant projection and wishful thinking and most agenda-driven readings, which sort of... um... doesn't bode well for me & deconstructive readings, also). Possibly that's because most of the deconstructive readings I see in fandom are so... blatant in not really taking the text 'as is' at all. Sometimes I really think it's good I haven't taken the more hardcore lit-crit classes so as not to drive myself insane even more with the sorts of things that drive me up the wall with fandom meta.
I'm pretty reassured by your approach (hee! you probably -will- like it! yeay, at least one reader, ahaha), and this reminds me of julad's post (http://www.livejournal.com/users/julad/71396.html) about the Warm Fuzzies vs. the Cold Pricklies in terms of readers & writers and their leanings in preference. I do think there are a lot more Warm Fuzzy readers, and I've been becoming more & more of a Cold Prickly writer, to my own chagrin because I'm a total romantic, but want to write honestly above all else. I do feel, sometimes, that the 'boo hoo' (warm fuzzy) cases and fluffy angst & stuff get much more appreciation in fandom, and that people want their 'pay-off' or a sense that they're comforted for all the angst the fic throws at them, or at least they can just cry instead of being forced to -think-....
-I- think that someone resisting and being stubborn makes suffering more interesting, but I really have my doubts about most people, y'know. I suspect the reason `An Unlikely Pair' was reasonably popular was because there was 'pay-off' in it (they 'made up'), and it was a reasonably short story, too... whereas the DE!Draco fic is long and has few and far between happy moments (though it ends hopefully, it's not like they declare love & hold hands). I think I have this compulsion to understate things the same way most writers/readers want them overstated. But maybe I'm just paranoid :>
Man, I was a bit hasty yesterday - and was then really really ashamed. I usually just go around with a "hehe, fic!" attitude and try to keep away from meta much these days. Kinda rusty.
So I was kinda ashamed to click back on this link - am cowardly and silly. Besides, semester's starting up. argh...
But anyway, back to H/D. I do have the craving to read something that pushes them a bit more. Once the boys reach that inevitable "OMG I LOVE YOU" point, I feel tempted to close the fic, but get sucked into it anyway. And other points make it enjoyable... The little details that just stick with me. But I get the whole, "hey! I'm a romantic! Why am I pushed into the quandary of urging the boys to keep shoving?"
I want to read them happily ever after - or something under the surface - 'cause it reassures me that other people think it, but I can't write it 'cause they don't act that way. Even during the 'cute' period. hahaha.
sorry - this is a big incoherent babble - was up all night having a nightmare about drawing graphs and charts for godknowswhat I was supposed to do...
Wah! But I still like talking about this stuff, it's okay-- as long as we got any misunderstanding cleared up, it's sort of fun, isn't it :> ...Or maybe that's just me ^^;; You don't have to be afraid of me, at least, er, I don't bite or anything! Hee. I'm sorry about the semester starting-- I mean, sorry for myself & for you also :)) Man. Summer always ends just when you think there should be a week or two left. Always another week or to (sort of like another minute in the mornings...)
I'm totally with you on getting bored at the 'I love you' point-- the only times it works for me is when it's a friendship-based gennish fic, where the ILY is, y'know, platonic-- and yet charged, y'know. I dunno -why- I'm so addicted to platonic!H/D lurve, but I've always had a secret craving for it, even though omg, this is a hate/lust pairing~:)) But yes-- my overriding obsession all this time has been to see fics where it keeps being difficult-- 'cause that's like, the point >:D I've always been chagrined that H/D attracts the sort of people who sekritly want to write H/G, except with hawt boysecks... *sigh*
I want happily-ever-after except believable-- not just the idea, but the real deal. I'm demanding, I know :D But that's probably my function in H/D fandom at this point-- y'know, to spank it :))
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2005-08-23 04:09 am (UTC)I AM SO MEAN TO ICKLE DRAKEY-POO! :P
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Date: 2005-08-23 04:11 am (UTC):D
:D
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Date: 2005-08-23 05:57 am (UTC)In my case, my Draco definitely fights back against any reader pity or whatever-- he's a victim of circumstance, sure, but mostly he brings it on hismelf and resists help, and it's not that anyone hurts him (bleh, sympathy-mongering) but that he hurts himself the most. I wouldn't even say Voldemort is 'mean' to him, or Harry. I mean, not that they're nice, but no one goes out of their way to hurt Draco. I'm not saying his sucky life is his fault, precisely, but... he's just a loser. And a bastard. And this goes on for like, 50+ pages ^^;;;
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Date: 2005-08-23 05:28 pm (UTC)but then the question remains, is reader sympathy only reserved for extreme 'boo hoo' cases (which I think it isn't, and in which case I think is an extremely coarse manipulation of responses, though I can see it happening and enjoy them as well)? When someone resists help, fights back, brings on consequences through his own stubbornness, isn't that a case for finding it more interesting, not because it's a pity party, but because it's not, and find that something you'd like to work with more? I like reading about stubborn bastards and writing them too. I'm sometimes at a loss with responses like 'o no! Draco's all hurt! Have Harry save him!' which I balk at.
But then, I'm not writing fic now.
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Date: 2005-08-23 08:22 pm (UTC)I'm pretty reassured by your approach (hee! you probably -will- like it! yeay, at least one reader, ahaha), and this reminds me of
-I- think that someone resisting and being stubborn makes suffering more interesting, but I really have my doubts about most people, y'know. I suspect the reason `An Unlikely Pair' was reasonably popular was because there was 'pay-off' in it (they 'made up'), and it was a reasonably short story, too... whereas the DE!Draco fic is long and has few and far between happy moments (though it ends hopefully, it's not like they declare love & hold hands). I think I have this compulsion to understate things the same way most writers/readers want them overstated. But maybe I'm just paranoid :>
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Date: 2005-08-24 03:15 pm (UTC)So I was kinda ashamed to click back on this link - am cowardly and silly. Besides, semester's starting up. argh...
But anyway, back to H/D. I do have the craving to read something that pushes them a bit more. Once the boys reach that inevitable "OMG I LOVE YOU" point, I feel tempted to close the fic, but get sucked into it anyway. And other points make it enjoyable... The little details that just stick with me. But I get the whole, "hey! I'm a romantic! Why am I pushed into the quandary of urging the boys to keep shoving?"
I want to read them happily ever after - or something under the surface - 'cause it reassures me that other people think it, but I can't write it 'cause they don't act that way. Even during the 'cute' period. hahaha.
sorry - this is a big incoherent babble - was up all night having a nightmare about drawing graphs and charts for godknowswhat I was supposed to do...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 10:19 pm (UTC)I'm totally with you on getting bored at the 'I love you' point-- the only times it works for me is when it's a friendship-based gennish fic, where the ILY is, y'know, platonic-- and yet charged, y'know. I dunno -why- I'm so addicted to platonic!H/D lurve, but I've always had a secret craving for it, even though omg, this is a hate/lust pairing~:)) But yes-- my overriding obsession all this time has been to see fics where it keeps being difficult-- 'cause that's like, the point >:D I've always been chagrined that H/D attracts the sort of people who sekritly want to write H/G, except with hawt boysecks... *sigh*
I want happily-ever-after except believable-- not just the idea, but the real deal. I'm demanding, I know :D But that's probably my function in H/D fandom at this point-- y'know, to spank it :))