~~bad news, batman.

[reenka]

In the Bad News Dept: this wank is making me wibble like mad, but perhaps because of this the most:
    It astounds me how anyone can find Harry falling in LOVE with Draco Malfoy isn't OOC.

It also astounds me how anyone can find Draco falling in LOVE with Potter isn't OOC as well.
    ...Mostly because I always fall for that 'rationalize your faith' straw man argument, nearly always made not by pairing agnostics (so to speak), whom I respect greatly and want to be somehow validated by, but by people with their own hidden agenda. It just really annoys me that people question concepts which -should- be questioned, but nearly always in the service of opposing bias. It's just one of those things which erodes my respect for people in general.


    However, I have to say that's at least 70% of why I ship them so hard. I mean, there are other reasons, obviously, but the sheer impossibility is what I adore the most. So it hits really close to home when someone says 'why does Harry bother loving Draco' when he already does and Draco's already lovable, because, well, we're always going to go back to Harry's base disgust with Draco, and being way too in touch with my Harry muse, this sort of attitude drives me up the wall. And makes it really hard to write plausible H/D. And yet my desire to do it remains. It's like... a catch 22. Can't succeed; can't stop trying. Argh.

Still, though, if there's anything I've learned, it's that you can't keep on judging H/D fics on the basis of 'does it prove H/D' & retain your sanity equilibrium (in my personal experience... ahem), because if that's my criteria (and I often slip & let it be), then there -is- no H/D fic I find 'in character' in that sense. No H/D fic fully satisfies the 'prove that canon Harry can 100% plausibly love Draco' requirement. I mean... it's still the ideal, but it can't be the point of reading H/D. Or if you want to read that, there's a very limited scope available to you, mostly pre-slash and fics which are dysfunctional and dystopic in some way. Among the more optimistic/brighter scenarios that are fully plausible in terms of remaining emotional baggage... well.... Basically, why pick on UL when you can pick on (nearly) every single other H/D fic out there?

I think my problem is that ideally, I want to write (and read) H/D for the non-believers. I started out in fandom (pre-OoTP!) wanting to write a novel called `One Good Reason'-- and that's one good reason for Harry to love Draco. And obviously I haven't even come close after 3 years, and yeah, that really gets to me sometimes.
    I mean, bottom line, love is irrational. Any attempt to make it totally 'plausible' and 'rational' is necessarily going to fail. I mean, the whole thing was basically doomed from the start (kind of like Harry & Draco).

In a way, it's sort of a philosophical conundrum on the level of 'prove to me that we exist'. I mean, you can strongly suggest that we do, and even why we do, but in the end we'll always come to those basic givens, those axioms which cannot be broken down or analyzed further, only believed. One = 1. Either you believe it or you don't. And I think pretty much all love is as impossible and axiomatic as Harry♥Draco, and that's why I both yearn to see them 'proven' to the non-believers and why I think it's no different from any other love-story.

Anyway, little to nothing about this really has to do with UL, which I love while acknowledging its flaws, which it shares with probably 97% of even the best H/D fanfic. It should probably tell me all I need to know that the person making the above claim about H/D itself being OOC describes himself as being 'sworn to defend Lucius Malfoy' from anything at all. It's these sort of people that make me wary of rah-rah-Slytherin fans, I swear. I guess that goes for the coo-coo population in any sub-fandom.
   Perhaps my whole quest to write H/D for the non-believers was flawed to start with because a lot of times it's not that people are waiting to believe a good enough reason, it's that they'd usually refuse to acknowledge a good reason if that means they were wrong.

And of course I want to somehow reach those people, 'cause I'm pretty sure both Harry & Draco are closed-minded like that, at least about each other. Hello, dysfunction! Settle in, why don't you.
~~

In the Good News Dept: I saw Batman Begins last night, and it was just as good as everyone's been implying.


Christian Bale was startling and the whole thing was wonderfully psychological and plausible, as well as totally thrillerish. The only weird thing was the Doctor/Scarecrow, who was way too pretty & gay for me to buy into his evil ways or whatever. He was such a red herring, and just... I kept staring at his lips (well, he kept pursing them!) It was distracting, dammit.
    Anyway, all the small roles were wonderfully realized, and the only one I was really annoyed by to any significant degree was the Love Interest DA Lady, mostly 'cause... well, Mary Suish much? Man. Grow a flaw, girl.

I really liked all the different shadings of grey (truly amazing for a superhero movie, though particularly fitting for Batman-- finally). The 'lawful good becomes equivalent to lawful evil' thing is pretty common in anime, but in America it's ridiculously rare, and I just eat it right up. I love the idea of there -having- to be an 'anti' to the 'hero' for the hero to be really 'pure', contradictory as it sounds, because it encompasses the whole Eastern idea of balance I think is so essential for healthy ethics. Come to think of it, it'd be interesting to see Japanese commentary on the Batman phenomenon in general.

Upon reflection & some consultation, I realized the head evil-guy (reeeally bad with names) is Oh So Gay (even moreso than Scarecrow, who's... well), which amuses me. Though I am now pondering whethere you can -always- say the Head Villain Guy is gay for the Hero is some meta sense at least (I'm serious!) Like, I wouldn't necessarily say Main Sidekick Guy has to be gay for the Hero 'cause... I refuse to diss friendship like dat, man, but.... I really think hateful obsession can be a form of... uh, sexual attraction if not love (well, definitely not love). Maybe this takes a certain slant/vision of attraction/love. That said, name me the heroic 'verse where there's no halfway plausible Hero/Villain slash-- go on, I dare ya. I can't think of any, I really can't.

And the Joker bit at the end just made me squeal, I swear to god. That was such beautiful foreshadowing/fan-service, I just can't take it. So cute. Wheeee!

...I'm sure I had other thoughts, but....

Oh yeah, heheh. Baby!Bruce was way too adorable for words. I sort of squealed when I first saw him. Heeee!

Though I really didn't like Batman!Bruce so much. Like, I liked Bruce's thinking 'as' Batman, but not his actual hijinks-- the voice (too low/croaky), the car (those tires are -really- distracting & the whole submarine/rocket feel wasn't... I dunno, elegant enough for me), the moves (not really natural-seeming)-- while they seemed to 'fit' in the movie, they didn't seem Batman-cool and/or graceful or something. Not that most Batmans really gave me that impression. Maybe comic!Batman is really too cool for any actor's britches. I mean, he -is- a Legend. *smirks*

In 'other' news, when I saw the GoF movie promo poster in the theater, I just squealed and cooed and had to touch it. Repeatedly.

OMG HARRY!!!1 Looking all heroic and woobie and... *cries, is dork*

Comments

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

The main bad guy is R'as al Ghul, and WOW he is really not gay, LMAO!

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Although I will say I totally knew that movie would result in Bruce/R'as slash. But the comics, man, the comics, they won't let me see it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh, I totally didn't see it as I watched the movie either (thus the 'consultation' ahaha), but in retrospect I sort of... sort of... well. If I squint in a certain light. Not gay as Scarecrow, but who is?
...Though that was totally visually biased of me, 'cause omg he sorta screamed 'fabulous' in that 'I care more about my lip-care than dealing with this shit, please bitch' vibe... sort of... way...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It astounds me how anyone can find Harry falling in LOVE with Draco Malfoy isn't OOC.

It also astounds me how anyone can find Draco falling in LOVE with Potter isn't OOC as well.

The thing about these statements is that...they're kind of dumb. I mean seriously, why is it more OOC for Harry to fall in love with Draco than it is for him to fall in love with Ron or Hermione or McGonagall or any other person he will never ever fall in love with in canon? JKR says Neville/Luna is OOC--do people rail about people writing that? Or do they just say, "Well, it's not going to happen but I can see it anyway."

The point of the story is that the feelings these two have for each other eventually change. I don't think those kinds of statements are really trying for an answer at all, it's just the person's way of saying they don't like H/D, don't want it to happen, but it's not enough it won't happen so they need some kind of proof that makes people stop writing the fics. Because as long as people write the fics clearly it's possible for them to fall in love, fictionally.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

why is it more OOC for Harry to fall in love with Draco than it is for him to fall in love with Ron

ah ah. i love this. you know when you get the wankery about how "THEY ARE ENEMIES IN THE BOOKS!!!!" and they're not supposed to be lovers, and why is nobody like, "THEY ARE BEST FRIENDS IN THE BOOKS!!!!", they're not supposed to be lovers. though probably some people say that. just not the same people.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehe... yeah -.- Well, theoretically, he wouldn't fall in love with say, Ron in canon, but at least he likes him? Or something. My main source of wibbliness is that I often don't find the particular process a writer uses to have Harry fall for Draco plausible, and lately I've just started to twitch at him 'admiring' Draco to start with in any way. I've dropped stories just 'cause there's one sentence the effect of him thinking Draco is cool & mysteriously sexy or something. I'm not sure if I'm jaded (...yeah) or things were always like this and it's just that before I was much more willing to suspend my disbelief.

So it's not really abou whether it's going to happen in canon for me, 'cause that's just ridiculous; it's much more... meta, I guess? Like, part of my wibbliness about the way fanon hasn't come through or something-- latent guilt that I haven't really written fanfic I can point at either. It's sort of like... I know any non-canon pairing is going to be equally on crack in a sense, but fact remains that Harry has more mental blocks against Draco than anyone but Voldemort and Snape, maybe, and most-- nearly all-- fanfic doesn't deal with them to my satisfaction. However, that guy was still being stupid and not trying for an answer, yeah :D

...My big problem is feeling like most H/D writers out there aren't trying for a 'really real' answer either -.- I mean, even though most H/D fics still work for me & I enjoy and love lots of them. I'm still like, but this isn't what I -want-, to the point where I think what I want can't really exist 'cause I set my bar so high~:))

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I guess it's just that a lot of people aren't drawn to the "how" of their getting together, so they just want to skip it. Of course, sex doesn't have to start with admiring. Some H/Ds start with hating or whatever. It's funny, because Harry being interested in someone for being mysterious and sexy can work, but I think I prefer it when Harry starts out thinking there's nothing to learn about Draco and he's repulsive and then getting sucked in before he realizes it.:-D

mental note to self: close HTML tags

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

So it hits really close to home when someone says 'why does Harry bother loving Draco'

That just shows how stupid the people asking the question is. Love isn't about "bothering" to do it, it just is. It's like faith, and all those other ineffable pieces of the infinite universe and therefore humanity that we try to comprehend. *woobie romantic/existential mode*

H/D: It just is, bitches!



Basically, why pick on UL when you can pick on (nearly) every single other H/D fic out there?

OMG I know. Especially that comment on the GAFF boards about "canon rape". I mean, fucking hell! I don't particularly like UL, but if that's what's classfied as "canon rape" these days, then you may as well be wanking 99.9% of HP fanfics on the GAFF boards as well. Seriously, I think GAFF is just desperate for wankage, and so picking on the popular ones. I'm surprised they haven't lashed out at SoHW yet.

In 'other' news, when I saw the GoF movie promo poster in the theater, I just squealed and cooed and had to touch it. Repeatedly.

Haha, I woohoed when we had the GoF trailer before BB, and my brother was like, "Shut up you dork!".

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think one of the main issues people have is that they apply the same criteria to all fanfics, where they may not support it. At all. I mean... I might always look for a certain kind of Harry (one who's not admiring or uber-infatuated with supercool-Slytherin!Draco OMGWTF?! *makes choking motions*) but... not every fanfic wants to be believable in the same way, anyway. Certainly you can't judge a Veela!Draco fic like that (since well, the point is that Harry's mindlessly infatuated, for instance). But then, I've always said that I've never read an H/D fanfic that's really satisfied me all the way, anyway (plausibility-wise). I'm not too sure about other pairings-- I mean, I just accept the concept of S/R a lot easier (though H/D is my OTP), so I don't require a fic to convince me that Remus would want Sirius or vice versa. Whereas, though I accept that Draco wants Harry & is in denial, Harry doesn't not, not, NOT(!!) want Draco to sex him up right off the bat, oh baby oh baby. I think I wasn't this rabid before fanfic warped my brain, but oh well... *coughs*

But yes, H/D just is... well, in a good fic, and in my head. Though I'm pretty wibbly 'cause I don't think I myself write 'believable' romances where H/D 'just is'-- it's like... um, the people who wonder why my Harry is with my Draco probably have a point, 'cause I make them such utter bastards, and what Harry (in my Death Eater!Draco novella, at least) is doing with Death Eater!misogynist!liar!Draco... well...... ><;;

They have lots of angry sex? Er?

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I don't require a fic to convince me that Remus would want Sirius or vice versa.

As a friend once put it, "That's because they're gayer in canon. Well, gayer than Harry at least". XD

Though I'm pretty wibbly 'cause I don't think I myself write 'believable' romances where H/D 'just is'-- it's like...

You're such a wanker perfectionist. If your Harry is such a bastard, then of course he belongs with an equal bastard who isn't Snape. And lots of angry sex is good. Very good. Wonderfully good.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Alo, go look at this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/red_rahl/32990.html). Heee.

[cercaluna.livejournal.com]

When I saw the GoF trailer, I couldn't stop beaming and shaking my friends sitting on either side of me with glee. I cannot help the excitement.

As for H/D, I think the point is that they can't "fall in love" the way things stand, right now; there was no way Harry was going to look into Draco's eyes as they stood in the Entrance Hall at the end of OotP and think, "Wow, I could really love him." Of course something has to change between them. (And by change, I don't mean Draco = redeemed!!!11one or Harry's sudden infatuation with Draco's Sleek Sexy Vibe.) Something has to shift the dynamic between them, but this, even, can be subtle. And personally, looking for and exploring that change is, for me, what writing's about. Letting things be possible. Even if they might seem impossible.

I guess making that realistic, as believable as it can be, is the challenge, and what I look for/hope for these days.

But also, fic should be enjoyable, and I can't think of very many fics I enjoy more than UL, so there. Uh. ♥.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

With all these mentiones of the trailer, I had to go to the website & see it :D haha. Wah. I suspect there's something wrong with me that I grow more not less excited with each movie ^^;;

The problem, I suspect, is that a number of people define 'realistic' differently; especially that people define it as 'as is' and 'without change'. People's ideas of what characters (and people in general) 'should' act like tend to vary quite a bit, due to personal experience & intelligence level, so it seems you can never reach a pure majority in terms of what works as believable progression & reason for change. It's also that if you don't want to believe, you just won't, no matter what, since you already have a preconceived notion of the characters.

But yes :D It's what I look for too :D A shift both subtle and transformational & -loud- :D

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Oh, that thing is like... what on earth? Though there were people making some interesting points, and like a fool I went and answered them. Oh Maya, Maya, when will you grow a brain?

Don't be disheartened, reena, none of us have written the perfect H/D yet (me, quite obviously not, which I knew without the wank). It's hard to do, possibly particularly since the people you want to convince just won't be, no matter if you do write the perfect H/D. (Though you know we want you to, reena. we do, we do.) Also fanfic is hard to perfect, I think, because it exists in a state of reaction, not only to the original but to the rest of fandom. (I'll admit a lot of UL was inspired by my driving fury at Draco who cries because Harry doesn't love him. ;))

Everyone loves Batman. Sigh. I did not, I thought the end was Hollywood and facile, and would have loved it if there had been some kind of moral standpoint in between Liam Neeson and Katie Holmes, instead of 'OMG NO EVIL IS EVIL AND BLACK IS BLACK AND WHITE IS WHITE AND BATMAN SEES THAT NOW OMG!' I mean... logically speaking, we should've seen him *kill* someone, y'know. Clean up those streets the hard way, Batboy! Christian Bale is the best Batman yet, though.
I'll tell you one thing I did love, reena, and that's the Big Bang. Genius! I want to fangirl Hall of Mirrors and I want to fangirl it now, damn it. Where should I do that?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

In retrospect, I suppose this means you have arrived as a BNF :)) I mean, if you don't have your main popular fic wanked in HP fandom, you must not have been trying hard enough ^^;;;

Yeah, I mean, most of my fanfic is pretty reactionary. It's only in my head where I have this sort of... wordless vision of how it 'should' be or could be, if only I could verbalize it. It all falls apart & gets dysfunctional when I try, though. Possibly ideals just can't be put into specific form :-?

Hehe, you know comics!Batman doesn't kill :> It's like his... thing. But yeah, the end, I didn't love so much (especially DA Lady's little patronising speech about Bruce being Batman more than Bruce or whatever)... but by that point I was going with the flow, I think. I enjoyed the way that everyone was kind of evil in their way (except DA Lady, Scientist Guy, Alfred & The Detective). Like... R'as was lawful good acting like lawful evil, which was interesting. I think it tried grounding itself in pop-psychology, and apparently my expectations are so low that's enough to make me happy :> What with the whole 'become your fear' and 'fear is a virus' type... stuff. And Christian Bale -was- the best Batman yet, heh. I think -Batman- is supposed to be the midpoint between Katie Holmes & Liam Neeson :D (It's so funny using the actors' names, hee.) Possibly that point wasn't really made that well... but yeah, he kind of personifies the shadows in the service of the light... or something, which makes him... flexible. In theory. Er.

Here's (http://www.livejournal.com/users/ella_bane/16703.html?mode=reply) her post with the link to the fic, though I'm really starting to wonder if the feedback link at the top-- that's in the right column next to the text, under "fic links"-- it's got a ♥ next to it-- is just too complex and difficult to figure out or something. I'd just seen someone on that post say they can't find a feedback link. I mean. Nar? ^^;; Should I put it at the bottom instead? Is it too late now? Er? ^^; :))
Though now I'm curious as to what you think of Queen of Hearts, since it's the um...probably the fic that most met the spirit of the challenge as shaggirl & I intended, but... *coughs*

question

[earthsbane.livejournal.com]

i have a question thats off topic, what is that quote from on your page, home is where the crow flies, ive heard that before but cant place it, thnx

Re: question

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hm, well, I just made it up, actually :) I've searched it on google, and it seems like 'where the crow flies' is a common phrase with no one discernable origin, and though there are various songs (I've never heard of) that use it, none of them add 'home' in front. I did find this:
where the crow flies is something yet unseen
...Though that's probably mostly amusing to me :>

[stellabelle.livejournal.com]

I saw Batman because I have an epic, long-standing crush on him. And also on Christian Bale. There weren't really any other reasons. (One day I'm going to stop being so lame. It's going to be a good day.)

I was going to talk to you about H/D, but then I started thinking about it and I wanted to cry (because of the stress, you understand). Instead I'm just going to say that they are motherfuckers, but I can't leave them alone. Story of my goddamn life. Except not. Except sort of.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yes, but what did you -think-, hehe? I actually forgot I thought Christian Bale was cute 'til I saw him again. Man, he's grown old(er) -.- He was like, in some 80s movies or something, wasn't he? o_0 Heheh of course I would see any comics/fantasy movie they make. If I can actually make it to the theater ^^;;

And. I KNOW! See, you UNDERSTAND! <3
Definitely motherfuckers. I shouldn't be so pleased at this, should I?

[stellabelle.livejournal.com]

I thought it was really good! I thought Christian Bale was great as Bruce, like, I really empathized with his character. (And also Cillian Murphy was hot-yet-scary-yet-hot zomg.) Rachel was a really weak character, to me, but they say they aren't bringing Katie Holmes back for the sequel, so that's good. Overall, I was pleasantly suprised (to use a really lame term). I mean, I wasn't expecting it to be crap by any means, but I was really glad to see that, for the most part, it was solid and well-done. I'm excited for the sequel now, too, because of how they totally set up for it at the end! :)

They are bitches, Reena. BITCHES. They need to be smacked around, that's what I say. Repeatedly. Oh, I always say that, don't I. Huh. (Consequently. CONSEQUENTLY. I am skeered to post in communities, can you TELL?)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Being in love with Draco isn't even a character trait. How does it make him out of character? It doesn't even make sense.

(People who don't like a ship will say anything. I just finished reading a 100+ thread about how this het pairing from Naruto is eww gross and also, stupid, because they're first cousins. Nevermind she's the girl he has the most intense relationship with, and a lot of his character is built around her. And then there was much rejoycing about pairing the guy with his girl teammate, despite the fact that she has no personality whatsoever and he barely talks to her. But since the other pairing is ew, incest, it must be gross and stupid. *shrugs* It's all convoluted rationalisations, and pretty transparent, too. When they are popular, it's just because a lot of people share the same squick.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I keep wondering whether any pairing can be OOC, yeah... I guess I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, a good fic can make anything plausible, but on the other hand, some things are just really unlikely for people to do or feel about other people or what have you. Like... Hagrid/Harry... really unlikely, y'know what I mean?

My main argument for H/D is basically that love itself is pretty unlikely; whenever you try saying 'this is how it's likely to happen' or 'this makes sense' in terms of love, I feel you enter murky waters because you're trying to rationalize belief & emotion one way or the other. I mean, I've never actually thought H/D was plausible for Harry or whatever, I just thought it could/should happen anyway.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I don't think you need an argument. :) People are attracted to ships based on knee jerks emotional reactions that are v. personal, and then they try to prove their universal appeal. That's the base fallacy that causes all shipping wanks.

*goes off tangent* Every time someone tells me "I don't *get* H/D", I am like, Well, of course you don't. And what they want is me to make them feel the same through elaborate arguments, but they never will, because they never felt my same attraction in the first place. I really dislike the phrase "I don't get it". It should be "I can't relate to it." "I don't get it" implies the shipping is so alien no normal human would enjoy, instead it's just alien on a personal basis.

[cercaluna.livejournal.com]

PS: About your question to Maya on Queen of Hearts, that was my favorite of the fics, though I did love them all. It's so raw and angry and Harry doesn't back down at all, and the ending is so poised and perfectly painful, and, yeah. Also, the line "We'll never be quits, Potter," or whatever it is, is just fantastic. *has already read it four or five times* :">!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeehee :D :D Yes :D :D
'Raw and angry' = why I wanted a longer story, except just like one of those angsty smutty one-shots people wrote right after OoTP :D :D And Harry never backs down!! Except! After a long hard road of being knocked over the head and/or getting tired of beating Draco off with a stick. Or, you know~:)) ♥ :D