[stupid competitive streak...]

[reenka]

Okay, I admit I really like it when (usually young & male) characters act like idiots or bastards... or maybe even idiotic bastards; it's cute. It's endearing. It's in character, etc. Bottom line, I like stupid teenage boys who act before they think. Men who think too much yet make mistakes all over the place just don't have that special flare, for me, because they have no excuse and it's annoying as hell to watch them, basically. But....

It struck me that there's a difference between 'dumb' and an 'idiotic bastard'; it seems like a subtle difference, but it's crucial for me to like the character. Say, Harry. A lot of people seem to think Harry's dumb. While that's true in some ways, it's really kind of annoying in others; especially since it often leads to him being dumb in comparison to Draco, which... don't even get me started.

Harry is pretty clueless a lot of times about things like girls, motivations in shades of grey, and the thinking processes of other people, especially people he doesn't like or hasn't observed close-up (since I think he's pretty clever when it comes to negotiating the Dursleys, though he doesn't bother to kiss up or anything).

I can accept this, and I actually find it cute about him (frustrating as I'm sure more snobbish discriminating people find it). But he's an idiot in a way that a lot of self-centered, rebellious teenage boys are idiots-- inexperienced, rash, given to temper tantrums and overreactions, wanting life to be on his terms and constantly bashing his head against the wall of reality not working like it should. It's okay because the other teenage boys he knows (or at least Ron and Draco) are pretty much idiots too. Neville seems to be missing the testosterone needed to be a first-class idiot, so far.

What bothers me is when 'teenage idiot' becomes 'just plain dumb'; meaning, it's not that he misinterprets things and judges too harshly and doesn't bother to analyze to save his life, but that he doesn't have his own sort of intelligence-- his own sort of wit and resourcefulness. I draw the line when he's incapable of learning in the natural course of things, and his denseness is somehow not normal; especially when it's implied another peer (even Hermione, in the long run) is smarter. Ahhh, that gets my hackles up.

    I'm just saying that most people are intelligent in different ways.


So while Harry might have no clue about what's going on in Cho's or Dumbledore's or Draco's head, he's got what I'd tentatively call street-smarts. Coping behaviors and thinking patterns learned during a high stress childhood, when you had to figure out who to trust or not & what to expect. He's good at thinking on his feet, having mocking come-backs and defending himself and dealing with painful things alone, but not so good at knowing when not to defend himself, when he's overreacting, when to think and not charge in, when he's going too far and becoming the thing he hates.

Ron's got a lot of the same flaws (hot-headedness, extreme mischief, disregard for common sense, emotional denseness), but he's a lot more protective than defensive, and he's more of a natural planner. He thinks about his future more, it seems, and doesn't have as violent of a brewing temper 'cause he doesn't repress it any. Ron's a stupid boy, sure, but he's not dumb; he prioritizes the sorts of things he wants to think about (Quidditch, chess) and the rest of the time he sort of goes by instinct. This doesn't make him less intelligent than say, Hermione, just less analytical. Hermione has her own gaping blind spots, in that she's rather obsessive about whatever project she decides to champion, for example.

Another sign of different kinds of intelligence is that Ron and Harry are actually quite funny-- or at least, they get the good lines (I'm thinking of Harry's sarcasm towards the Dursleys ever since book 1)-- and Hermione and Draco aren't, so much. Draco is all about the low blow, mocking high and low till something hits home-- he's pretty much your typical 14 year-old online flamer, wizard version. He doesn't win (well, not that it's really -winning-) by being more clever than Harry & Ron, he just wins by being socialized well enough to know what hurts. On some level, he probably understands them better than they understand him, but that doesn't really make him smarter in an overall sense, since a) he loses through not being clever enough to realize he'll lose; b) he loses by picking such embarrassing childish taunts that people could easily grow out of them.

I think it's perfectly fine for Draco to become smarter; it's just he'll never be smart the same way as Harry or Ron, say (since Draco's bollocks at predicting people's behavior or strategy, apparently). A lot of people do compensate with time, and their experience lends them a certain subtlety (sometimes). It's just that their strengths don't tend to change, and mostly neither do their overall mental comfort zones. Meaning, Harry's never going to be brilliant at analytically determining others' motivation, but someday intuition might compensate. And it's probably not even good for Draco to learn not to overestimate himself, but perhaps he might figure out how to use people's weaknesses without underestimating them.

If there's anything I've learned in life, it's that everyone's stupid, but in their own way. Or something.

Comments

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

Emotionally, pretty dumb yes. Or reactionally.

I wonder if Draco might behave stupidly, in a way that will make Harry royally pissed off, just because he couldn't help it in the moment. I don't want either of them, in fic, to be cool people, who can do the right thing, think through the right choices. Heh, I even want Hermione to quietly lose it. (and think she's doing the right thing)

The fun for me is watching them probably feel it's the wrong thing to say or do, but do it anyway. Or even better, not get it at all, misunderstand completely and screw it all up.

But then, I'd like them to get back together without much reasoning or high-talk either. Because they'd just feel foolish and sheepish afterwards. Or Draco's temper will flare down.

:P

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Now I'm thinking (after conferring with sistermagpie below) maybe it's especially that they trigger each other to be stupider than they already are, especially 'cause Draco seems more on top of his game around Umbridge or Snape or as a Prefect (the boy sure has a thing about riding on borrowed balls, so to speak....)

I love it when Hermione quietly loses it :D The only Hermione-fic I'd written that I felt rung true was the one where she kind of goes insane searching for Harry and no one can stop her. And of course no matter -what- she did she'd be even more convinced she was right than Harry ^^; 'Cause it's not that easy to argue with Hermione, I'm guessing, no matter who you are (whereas at least Harry knows some people are smarter than him? Maybe. Sometimes.)

Heeee I love the getting-back-together-just-like-that thing >:D I think once they get together in the first place, they probably break the huge initial barrier and then it's like, 'ahhh, thinking too hard! fucking good!' :> Wah, they're so cute it's almost painful :((

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

'ahhh, thinking too hard! fucking good!'
Oh yeah!

hee hee. Love their emotional idiocy.

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

I like Hermione come undone, just under the surface. She loses it in POA, and even in OotP, when she seems to have things more under control - after she leads Umbridge into the forest.

She's book smart yes, but I think the book smart and street stupid dichotomy isn't all there is to her. At least she's not Super!Ginny.

I have a feeling all her "great heart/caring" business will make her more quietly or deeply emotional than the silly boys. They can snap and bite at each other, but get back again, off again, but for me, Hermione's not just the "has it all together" school geek.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I like the idea that she gets more deeply wounded... well, that's true, actually, now I remember her crying in the loo in book 1 after Ron calls her a nightmare, so I guess she's sensitive to things that pick at her self-esteem and over-compensates and so on. My grasp on her is so tenuous, though, and it doesn't help that I next to never read what seems like a believable Hermione in fanfic.... All that comes to mind at the moment is Silvia Kundera's....

Now I'm curious what you'd think of my old Hermione-fic (http://www.skyehawke.com/archive/story.php?no=612) ^^;

Though I do thing Harry broods too, just without actually self-analysing, just dwells in his emo way. Actually, that might explain why she's suddenly lil Miss Pop Psychologist in OoTP; she's been thinking about boys (and Ron and Harry in specific) all this time, being the girl whose main friendships are with two dense boys.... Wah, I haven't thought of that enough....

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

If there's anything I've learned in life, it's that everyone's stupid, but in their own way. Or something.

That pretty much says it.

It's hard to tell about Draco, really, because we see so little of him. That is, it's hard to tell whether his interactions with everyone are as pointless and silly as the ones with Harry & Co. I think there are signs that he does think and is creative, and can put two and two together (like with the Midnight Duel), which doesn't make him smart, exactly, but I'd say he's curious in ways Harry isn't. Maybe that's where people get the "smarter" idea. Harry never has to create a plan because he's got Hermione and things are always being done to him so he's always on the defensive. Also he seems to consider it almost a point of honor to *knot* go on the offensive to learn things for himself. His curiousity is of a very specific kind, and sometimes he'd rather be angry about not knowing stuff than go and find it out. Also he's more likely to get curious about something if there's something forbidden in it (like having the Pensieve out in Snape's office). Other times he's just as likely to pull out the extendable ear just when he's heard enough to get himself upset.

I think, really, that it's not so much a question of smart as of emotion. Both Harry and Draco to find themselves in situations where they're reaction emotionally rather than intellectually, so that's what you see. You're usually seeing them in situations where they can't think straight because they get too focused on their anger or frustration or whatever. Harry is much smarter-sounding when he's dealing with Draco, because he's usually less emotional (unless Draco hits a sore spot on him, at which time he just hits him). That last scene in the hall in OotP is Harry being totally in control and cool, for instance.

By the same token I can imagine that Draco is much smarter-seeming in other areas of his life, that he possibly shows some chilling expertise in handling Umbridge, that he's quite clever in coming up with insults about Harry when he's talking to Snape and is competent when in classes. He does seem to be a bit more of a thinker, going over and over things in his mind while Harry just sort of lets the past go, but that can trip him up as much as help him.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Harry considers it a point of honor to *not* be on the offensive. Nice of me to highlight my typo with asterisks so you don't miss it...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm getting the creeping feeling I need to refresh my memory on the actual details of events from the books, 'cause I need evidence and back-up :)) Ahaha, but then I have you to explain it to me :D

The issue of different kinds of curiosity-- yeah. Now I'm remembering Draco's questioning Harry in the robe-shop as soon as he sees him, trying to categorize him, whereas Harry's not aware of his categories and just reacts intuitively (possibly also Draco's intuitive reaction was interest while Harry's self-consciousness). And then there's the Dark Arts shop scene, where Draco's pretty into the creepy gizmos so he's got a kind of mechanical curiosity-- and Harry's idea of fun is more things that he can play with rather than use.

I don't think Harry creates plans much 'cause he just 'knows what to do' a lot; that's the street-smarts thing. He doesn't project into the future much because his strength (such as it is) is dealing with the present. So it depends on whether you think preplanning is the arbiter of intelligence; probably, though it doesn't guarantee real-life success...? Or something like that. Harry's better at dealing with random developments & adjusting; Draco's not so much with the adjusting (in one sense... in another he seems pretty flexible or maybe just adaptable to other's leading if it suits him).

The thing about them triggering each other is definitely true :> I guess Harry had a certain distance from the Dursleys that allowed him to talk back at them, or maybe he'd developed more resistance so they had to push harder to get him to lose it. Harry seems to 'talk back' at Snape even though he's angry, but it's less sarcastic and more sullen, maybe? It's definitely true that Draco's able to retain his wits when he's in his comfort zone as a Prefect or in while in a class he's good at-- though for Harry it seems less about comfort and more about him knowing how to respond to authority figures (resistance!) and flailing more with his peers, who fight more dirty, maybe. Draco seems to just have a ready (and opposite) reaction to authority figure, which is to use them if he can and not piss them off too much if he can't, but overall he's pretty comfortable while being in a 'safe zone' of some sort. Harry's safe zones seem to depend more on his own moods than the presence of other people, then. :-?

I do think Harry dwells on the past, it's just a more emo thing-- he misses his parents, dwells on their death & on Sirius, relives various traumas. He doesn't plot revenge or console himself with 'I'll do better next time!' or what have you, but he does go over things in his mind (Voldemort! Voldemort! Mum! Voldemort! ...and those nightmares about Draco in first year, too.) He broods, y'know. Harry just lets things he doesn't want to think about go, which I'm sure Draco does too. Heheh they're so eerily similar in some ways :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think the other thing about the different curiousities is that at heart they're the same: they want what they can't have. Since Harry has all this stuff piled on him it's defiance to not give in to it. So if Snape says he must learn this new skill of Occlumency, he doesn't want to. Whereas Draco is always kept out of things, so naturally wants to be in on them. But it's not like when he's told things, imo, he probably thinks about them more intelligently than Harry does. He probably accepts what he's told much more than Harry does--which can be good or bad, depending on whether the person is telling you the truth.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

at heart they're the same: they want what they can't have
Aaahhh, I know there's a fic in there somewhere :D :D :D Heheh nothing could make a shipper's heart quite as glad as thinking the darlings are sekritly on the same wavelength, somehow, ahaha. Who'd've thunk it? :>

But yes! It's just that what they want is so diametrically opposed, what with Draco wanting the attention of people and Harry hating that & wanting people who're not there (and actually Cho fits that pattern as much as his mum does. Ha.) See! And with Harry's 'not accepting'-- well, that's not a product of thought so much as blanket rebelliousness & distrust (awww, my baby) but in effect it's kind of complementary... the resistance/independence of a leader & the cunning of a follower. This reminds me of a comment by ataniell93 where she said the world needs both her kind & the Hufflepuff bleeding-liberal kind :)) Awww, Harry needs Draco (I know, analysis/logic out the window, ahahah.) ♥

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

Harry consistently bests Draco in various ways, from nasty quips to Quidditch to the ongoing life-and-death-battle that always seems to happen at Hogwarts, so I have no idea why anyone would call harry stupid or say that Draco, of all people, is smarter than him. Harry can be naive, short-sighted, whatever, but who's not limited in various ways?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad :< I think what it comes down to is that people will always take the less positive interpretation of a character's behavior if they don't like him as much, maybe :-?

Ahahah though calling him 'dumb as a box of hair' is actually funny, I admit ^^;; Most people just... characterize him as not that witty, easily manipulated by Draco, two steps away from running into lamp-posts... maybe I'm oversensitive, but :> I think seeing a post questioning whether he was witty enough to make a wisecrack with big words in it was the current culprit :>

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

Someone said Harry wasn't witty enough to make a wisecrack with big words in it? wtf?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Was inspired by this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/mirabellawotr/672996.html), though really I think that was a very particular case; it just reminded of this general trend where Harry's not the witty one or he just... is a caricature of the crazed yelling boy from OoTP. And isn't it funny how people forget the silent unemotional sneering boy from the end of the same book? *sigh*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Also, remember, we're not trapped in Draco's head throughout the book and Draco's blindspots aren't made into big plot points. The reason people think of Harry as dumb as a box of hair is you're reading and thinking, "Just learn Occlumency, damn it!" Draco's sort of in and out. If we were in his head we probably couldn't believe how dumb he was to not see his father was an idiot or figure out that Potter was always going to best him at everything. Or people might want to know how he couldn't have figured out Crabbe and Goyle weren't really Crabbe and Goyle in the common room, or something.

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

Friend keeps looking out for books with what he calls "smart" heroes - only if they make the right turns, all the correct judgements, never fail emotionally, then wouldn't they not be as interesting as characters?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahh, didn't occur to me that the plot depends on Harry being stupid/not inquisitive enough in some ways, but I guess it does! Although to me it's equally obvious that they're all kind of stupid (I mean... cute and maybe plucky but not... not like any of them learn from their mistakes, really). Heheh it's always odd to me how being trapped in Harry's head is what makes me sympathize more, not the other way around :>

Actually, I guess you could make an argument that since he wasn't too shocked at Crabbe & Goyle speaking in complete sentences in CoS, they're not really that stupid...?? Although he did say, 'you can read?' which was so adorable, though it wasn't like he was accusatory as pleasantly surprised, a bit :))

*is watching you*

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

That's because you are le stupid, mon cherie.
But I love you anyway. Even more than Greedo.

Re: *is watching you*

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

See, you're the mean Draco in our relationship, and if you don't watch out, I'm going to CAPSLOCK out on you soon, before turning quiet and vicious.

*flounces off sulkily*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I don't think Harry's dumb, but I also don't think you can say Harry's smarter because he's a better jock. :P

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

Quidditch is as much about strategy as skill, but I was using that as my only example - I'm just pointing out that Harry is hardly a dunce in all areas compared to Draco's shining genius, as some fanfic/fan theorising would have people believe.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

in a way that a lot of self-centered, rebellious teenage boys are idiots

And a lot of grown professional men are idiots too. It's just the male ego, man. So fucked up.

Word on the street-smarts thing. This is why I think the world needs more streets!Harry. You know, rentboyed or working for a mafia or something like that. Only because I'm too stupid to think up a half-decent plot for the one in my head and therefore write it down. But yeah.

I actually don't think Draco's as smart as people think he is a lot of the time. He's cunning which can pass for intelligence and street-smarts, but when peoplpe depict him as being studious and even bookish, it brings out the whiskey tango foxtrot in me. But that might just be me, and my in-my-head!Draco who doesn't like books but has a secret fascination with Muggle films XD.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh by some coincidence, I'm reading a Muggle AU H/D with punk-skate-boarder!Harry right now (http://www.livejournal.com/users/scela_letifer/60150.html), ahahah. Though I've got this post-Hogwarts verse in my head where Harry's an Auror hunting demons and various Unmentionable-type things (...)
who comes across punk!Draco who's really in disrepair after the Death Eaters got defeated, and lives as a drugged-out drummer in Manchester <3 Hehehe.
There's also fick_l_rene's `Faster, Mudblood! Kill! Kill!', which has nightclub-owning!Draco (in a cowboy hat) & fugitive-from-the-wizarding-world!Harry. And there's the uber-cool `To Rule in Hell' by Antenora, and her post-war Harry in general, whom I totally lust upon. In that particular fic, Voldemort has won, and Harry's leading the sekrit underground (literally!) resistance, and they capture Draco and tug him to the sewers and they had a pre-existing relationship at one point &... god I wish she hadn't quit fandom. *pouts*

Hehehe if Draco was that good at cunning would all his omg-genius plans fail?? Well, maybe if they don't have to do with Harry they're better...? :-?
For some reason I think film-buff!Draco is teh ♥. I think this might be related to Spike & his obsession with TV ehehehe :D

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

For some reason I think film-buff!Draco is teh ♥. I think this might be related to Spike & his obsession with TV ehehehe :D

Ugh, Buffy fans. *smothers you til ded* But I dunno. I like spoiled!Draco, because that's what he is ferkrissakes, and books are so... attention-requiring. Unless they're books that he'd be interested in, like "101 Ways To Destroy Your Indestructable School-Nemesis, And Look Good Doing It", and such. But films, whilst wonderful, mostly don't require as much attention and involvement, and are more emotive and easy to get into because they do all the hard work for you. And the whole getting-others-to-do-the-hard-work is Draco through and through.

But I shall have to check out those recs.

[roachspit.livejournal.com]

Here by way of metafandom. I have to say I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.

This: he's pretty much your typical 14 year-old online flamer, wizard version

describes Draco's characterization in every HP fic I'll ever write from now until doomsday. Because it's true.