~~ ahhh, the tedium of fantasizing

[reenka]

Reading the review of `Mirror of Maybe' at hp_fictalk where the major crit was 'too much detail' made me wonder about why that's such a huge pet peeve of mine (to the point where reading-- correction, trying and failing to read-- MoM gave me near physical pain). I mean, one of the most obvious flaws within my own writing is that I don't explain things (like details about the environment or what some character is thinking) enough-- because it just doesn't seem interesting or essential. I'll describe something if I've got an deeply vested interest in every tiny detail (like a sex scene-- there, you could never really have too much detail for me), but who has the capacity to be that deeply interested in every scrap of minutiae of their existence...? (Don't tell me-- those people scare me, mommy!)

It seems to me that even in original work, there should be a different balance between the various fic elements of fact (the base element of plot), exposition (ahhh, the tedium that plagues all fantasists everywhere-- diekilldieEVILDEMON!!1), dialogue (wheeeee! never too much and double-yeay if used subtly for exposition!) and atmosphere (sort of like 'setting', except cooler because it's more concise/poetical! yeay!)
    In other words, in original fic you get away with having 30-40% exposition (if you are very lame or in other words, the majority of popular fantasy authors). In non-AU fanfic, 10% is more than enough-- any more feels like someone's force-feeding the reader gruel, no matter how high the 'sugar' content. (No more gruel please!! Reena hates gruel!! Stoooopppp iiiiit maaaaasterrr!) Er. Anyway, the reader just has more of a role to play in fanfic-- they shoulder more of the burden of exposition, yeay, so the fic writer can get to the Good Stuff (character development!) fast! That's the point, no?


It's just interesting, the different ways in which fantasy-building works-- I mean, as fans and readers, we want to know next to everything about the things that really interest us-- and I'm no different. I remember, especially in my early (original) fic writing when I was in High School, describing the world till I dropped, without much effort made for characterization, because really, who cares about these people (I know I didn't)? I was much more interested in the ever-so-cool details about how the magic worked & how the land was geographically structured & what the history was and where the flowers grew. I was pretty much in hog heaven in my own head, to the point where my English teacher (whom I gave my one novella to read) called my writing 'ecstatic'.

It just seems like fanfiction is markedly different in my mind, in that it's not my world to build-- and I was able to let go of any burden or ecstasy that brought. All I needed to play with were characters, and that was such a relief! I already had the world in my head, and even the characters, halfway, so to have it all explained to me again and again is the worst kind of torture! Like an original fic blooming where I want my pretty fanfic to be, and that's just not on! It's a weed! A weed, I say!

It's funny, 'cause I enjoy fantasy AU fics for Gundam Wing (which have plenty of world-building), mostly because I dislike that canon world (eeewwww, mechas!). In HP, I love the canon world-- as is, baby. So to have a fantasy AU in HP-- built into the Potterverse without fully removing the original-- feels like some sort of parasitic invasion. Which is similar to the feeling I get when a character's thoughts are over-explained-- as a reader, I have my own ideas about what they're thinking too, and to have all my space for imagination used up feels as if the fic is some sort of parasite on me, leeching my every flight of fancy for itself.

It's different when I'm doing this myself, in my writing-- I can see the appeal of describing everything that interests you, as I've said. But as a -reader-, it just relegates your role in the storytelling to 'object of lecture', which is so vile and loathsome as to be avoided at all costs (...now take a wild guess why Reena doesn't do well with organized schooling a lot of times).

In response to that post in hp_fictalk, arclevel said that they enjoy having things explained to them because they don't necessarily make the 'obvious' connection-- and I'm aware there are plenty of readers with this issue. Um. So I suppose this is why different sorts of stories will always attract different sorts of readers~:) For instance, I still can't muster up the will to slog through the endless tedium of plot/description/plot in either Tolkien's LoTR or Herbert's Dune series, though I know full well they're good books & I really enjoyed the movies. I feel like I'd really love them if someone else rewrote them, haha.

...Even so (that is, even if the reader digs it), I think it's not actually good writing to have that over-abundance of detail. It stifles the reader's own imagination (and by 'stifles' I really meant 'strangles'). Reading should encourage your imagination, not beat it bloodily into the ground! And stomp! And yell mightily for it has won! (...All right, I should go eat.)

Comments

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I think it's not actually good writing to have that over-abundance of detail. It stifles the reader's own imagination (and by 'stifles' I really meant 'strangles'). Reading should encourage your imagination, not beat it bloodily into the ground! And stomp!

I agree completely. I haven't read the fic in question because 1. I don't read Snarry and 2. I don't read WsIP, but just from teh excerpt listed in that discussion I can see that I'd have spent most of my time skimming to get to the 'good parts' and I don't mean the sex, necessarily, but the dialogue and some interior monologue. I mean, enough interior monologue to make me feel like I understand, but not a play by play of every thought and feeling the narrator is feeling.

Of course, I'm often told by betas that my stories are too elliptical and too light on descriptive detail, but I say I'd rather that than the other way around. Especially in fanfic, where I expect the reader can fill in everything if I say, "The drawing room at 12 Grimmauld Place" rather than describing every ratty curtain and chipped parquet floorboard.

So that was a really long-winded way of saying I totally agree. Hee.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

See, I'm a detail buff. I want the details. And unless an author goes apeshit insane with descriptive/atmospheric detail (and there is a level beyond which it's just stupid, though what that level is will vary from person to person according to individual taste,) I think talking about the moth eaten curtains, for example, is a good thing. It tells you something about the person who lives there, and that's good. However...

I think there's a difference between detail and exposition, and exposition is what kills you.

So, "dust had settled on the surfaces, and the sunlight filtered in through the moth-eaten curtains," is one thing, but adding "The curtains had been destroyed after many years of neglect because the owner of the house clearly didn't mind leaving them to rot, just as she didn't mind leaving the room itself in disrepair. She was clearly a very disturbed woman." (Woe!) is just silly.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Now I'm curious as to whether you write original fic & if your style differs with that (as mine does slightly). It's so awful, though, when the dialogue sucks too-- like, you can tell the writer is not really 'hearing' it in their head and are just sort of writing down what they think the characters -should- be saying to advance the plot (ack!).

I heavily prefer the elliptical (hee! I like that word) stories, which I'm aware is a personal preference and not something to impose on writers of different abilities (like, I don't know if I myself write elliptically so much as atmospherically, which I think is different).

I really think it's an issue of different writers'/readers' styles of thought-- that is, some people just -think- in that way and can't help but transmit it in their writing. And it's that sense that I'm being forced to share an alien brain that bugs me as much as anything :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like details if they're well-written (ahahah, that applies to everything). But when the details take over, it really is like Evil FishMen From Golynix IV Attack(!!!)
I was trying to talk about 'degree' with the percentage thing at the beginning (sloppily, as usual), yeah-- meaning that you could have a necessary & helpful amount (like 10% or whatever) but above a certain point, you're either retreading old ground on grinding extraneous material they're not going to care about anywhere near to the degree you do onto the reader.

Mostly, it's just that you'd be surprised how many people write like your silly example. I mean. I just... there's a lot of that out there. Why?? I don't know!! But it makes me weep and want to rail against the skies, that's for certain.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

HAHAH I would SO not be surprised. Seriously, there are two reasons I don't read fanfic anymore (with like, three author exceptions.)

1) Characterizations I can't get into.
2) So much of it is SO badly written.

Either of them just kills me. The first fandom that I actually wrote fic for took place almost entirely on a single message board with somewhere around 200-300 members, and everyone read everything. In order to be a responsible citizen of the board, I tried to read and comment to everyone, but damn. That burnt out my tolerance for shitty fanfic forever. That's where I ran out of tolerance for characterizations that make my brain hurt, too. Since then I have absolutely no ability to read either one. Just, none.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

See, about that fic, `Mirror of Maybe'-- it's incredibly popular. Has a huge following-- and several people said they were attracted to the uber-detailoroma because something about having a deeply extravagant fantasy space felt... indulgent. And I guess I'm just indulgent about different things (since I've never quite come across a sex scene that had too many details to the point where I got annoyed-- if it was well-written and they weren't stupid details). Anyway, it's hard for me to feel indulgent and comforted by having to be told about EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS, because my mind rebels and I begin to feel the need to get my own brain back where I had my thoughts for myself, thankyouverymuch (I know, overreacting a bit, but I'm rather sensitive to writing... I dunno if you noticed, ahahahh).

The thing is, it's not just fanfic-- a lot of popular other-world fantasy (Dune, LoTR) utilizes this sort of extreme exposition-- and people eat it up (while I gag and gag). Case in point-- the new in-thing novel by Kristen Britain, `Green Rider'-- I looked at a few pages and put it down, sick of the plodding exposition after one and a half pages. I literally -couldn't- read it. And then I casually I like fantasy to this girl in school 'cause I'm reading Patricia McKillip (whose exposition skillz are sharper than a razor), and says, 'omg if you like fantasy, you'd love Green Rider!!1 It's the best!!1' and I'm like, NOOOOOOOOOO SAVE ME FROM YE SCARY FANTASY FANGIRLS, SAAAAAAVE MEEEEeeeeeeeeeeee :> (except not. but y'know, in my head.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I know just what you mean. To me it's like the difference between fics where I can walk around freely and those where I feel trapped or buried. Not just fics but writing. I remember that always being one of the things I preferred about Diana Wynne Jones, because I don't consider myself somebody who's really into heavy high fantasy at all, and in her books I felt like there was just enough.

This, btw, is also why I continue to shamelessly fangirl mirabellawotr. If somebody said to name somebody you'd love to be able to write like--like that. For exactly that reason. I love it when she describes things because I usually don't notice she's doing it. I just know now I have this really really really pretty image in my head and I can hear it and smell it as well. Yay! But even so when I think of her style I wouldn't even say "descriptive" but straightforward, clean etc. I might even think of her as more of a character-writer than a descriptive one.

Maybe that's the thing--you feel almost like you've discovered the descriptive details by yourself. Like surely the author is more concentrating on Remus' flashback as he walks down that street in Hogsmeade, but I am secretly admiring the light in the sky and smelling the woodsmoke.

Mmmm. Woodsmoke.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that'd be the difference I was trying to get at with 'atmosphere' vs. 'exposition', which is more factual and plodding and logically-structured up the wazoo and bleargh. I think if one is a more character-centered writer, the world & details come more naturally, at the sidelines-- because you're not focusing on it. I mean, in a way, these two drives are complementary, but in another, you can still see which one the writer is more interested in by how heavy-handed & over-developed that aspect of the work is-- I remember writing environment-heavy fantasy where the characters were almost ciphers & now with fanfic, my writing is much more atmospheric and concise (comparatively!) because I'm focusing on dialogue and character.

If I had to pick someone to write like, it'd be Francesca Lia Block or Patricia McKillip, 'cause they combine a beauty of description that is almost painful to me and yet it tie it intimately to the character development to the point where everything seems like a metaphor and has several layers. Like... especially the way FLB describes LA-- the heavy fruits, the hot wind, the orange blossoms. It's like... more than just a place, more than just a setting. Everything is structured to influence everything else to the point of sheer poetry.

I find most people's characterization too 'heavy', so I'm just really sensitive to any hint of being over-told anything, character or setting-wise. Like... the more you tell me, the more I can disagree, anyway. Woe, for this is why I cannot bear to read anyone's H/D fic anymore.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Yeeeah, see, that's why I don't read much fantasy anymore, either. Although, it's odd since my favorite fantasy writer is George R.R. Martin, and he is often criticized for his nutty uber-detail on things like... what everyone's wearing, and eating.

But I think it has to do with writing style, too? Like, for whatever reason, his writing style doesn't make me feel like I need to dig my way out of a pile of unnecessary description. Whereas other fantasy writers have laid it on so thick that certain paragraphs of theirs have become an in-joke between myself and my friends/family. ;)

I wish I could say something about Patricia McKillip. I'd always head that she was fabulous, but when I tried to read one of her books, I really... really... really... hated her writing. So I assumed that I just disliked her. Later I found out, however, that a lot of her actual fans think that particular book... err, sucked, as well. So I no longer have any real knowledge of whether I'd enjoy her work. Alas.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh you just have to dig... a lot. There's still some good writing out there~:) I think, though it's been a few years since I checked (alas, I've been reading almost entirely fanfic for what, 3 years now?? omg). I remember reading that novella that started off the latest George RR Martin epic, and I -really- liked that. I never got around to reading the books (...if nothing else, oh man are they huge), but I really liked his writing style in that one. He has the ability to describe things with a sort of feeling for suspense, I think-- like, from what I remember, everything seemed to be constantly building & the tension just kept racketing up. And the main character was really strong, I thought-- so that emotional buzz just swept me along.

Sometimes (not very often), this happens and I really like the writer -because- of the intricacy-- I really enjoy Joan D. Vinge & Vernor Vinge in part because of the insanely high level of tension they manage to insert into tightly-plotted very detailed universes. It's like that -drive- needs to be there, though, something that pushes you forward in spite of yourself. I mean, with `Fire Upon the Deep'-- the one novel of Vernor Vinge's that I've read-- there was a sense of intrigue that sort of made you -wonder- about every new thing he told you about. It worked because it seemed important. But I mean, making 700+ pages of fic seem important isn't something most people can accomplish. In fact, making 7 pages of fic seem vitally important isn't something most people can accomplish :>

Heheh which novel of hers was it?
She's consistent but not utterly so~:) I was actually rather disappointed in her until her latest novel brought her back up to my favorite :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Well yeah, I know there's good writing out there. I just don't tend to care enough to dig it out. ;) It's rather like fanfic that way, to be honest: I only have but so much tolerance for bad writing, and once I read it, I can't really be bothered to look through more in search of the elusive gem. So, as with fanfic, I tend to settle on a handful of writers that I know won't drive me insane. From time to time I'll check out some of the writers who are loved by the writers I love, but oddly enough it usually proves fruitless anyway. I'm just very picky, I think.

Martin's writing style in the novella (Hedge Knight, yes?) is actually much much tighter than it is in his novels, which are... sprawling. ;) So yeah, a lot of people liked the novella who didn't like the novels, but by the same turn, many of the novel fans weren't so fond of the novella. I loved them both, but then I love his characters more than anything.

And it was uh, the Tower at Stony Forest or something? I remember there was a tower. And stone. ;)

[stellabelle.livejournal.com]

I think I almost always agree with you on this sort of thing...um, because we have a similar approach in terms of what style of writing we like, or something. Not sure. But anyway. Yeah.

I know that when I first started writing seriously, I had this, like, compulsion to explain every. fecking. thing. I think a lot of it, at least for me, stemmed from the mentality of 'oh but people might not understand what I meant here, or why so-and-so is characterized this way, or why they had to do [X thing], and etc' (which you mentioned in your post). And also it's clearly because I'm freakish. I don't know that I write that way so much anymore (sometimes I think I do, sometimes not), but it's just that I understand where the motivation comes from. And also, of course, there's that some people just write that way naturally. I just had to play devil's advocate, um, except not really.

With that said, I'm like you in that I really don't like reading stuff like that. (Generally.) I think there should be a separation between explanation-just-because & necessary explanation-for-the-plot's-sake. That's the key word - necessary. When I was in school, an English teacher of mine always used to talk to us about that in terms of our essay or short story writing. She would ask if whatever we were putting in our writing went directly toward the point/plot/what have you. Not so much paring down one's writing to bare bones, although sometimes that's effective, but just making sure there are no details in one's writing which make the reader go "???" or "yawn" or whatever. I've always remembered that and hope I at least sometimes manage to be successful at it, although really I have no clue.

...Even so (that is, even if the reader digs it), I think it's not actually good writing to have that over-abundance of detail. It stifles the reader's own imagination (and by 'stifles' I really meant 'strangles'). Reading should encourage your imagination
I really, really agree here. I think some people can pull it off (the detail thing), but even if you can, unless it's needed, it just bogs down the writing. And yes, it does 'stifle the reader's imagination' - when I read, I get a mental image in my mind of what something/a character looks like, etc & I hate to see that image shattered because the writing becomes ueber-describey. Because I am snobby like that. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Totally in agreement on FLB--and then she did that one book in NYC and it was so incredibly different. But yeah, I think that's a great great skill to be able to have the atmosphere reflect what's going on, particularly with the characters, but subtly so you're not being overtold anything.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, we do agree a lot, don't we :D I think, though, that there's a comment by idlerat in that post I linked to which explains the phenomenon of the appeal of over-explaining pretty well, which is what I was responding to-- basically, that it provides an emotional sense of -fullness-, of the universe being vivid and brilliant, like being overfed perhaps. Meh, I sometimes gorge, but I very rarely like anyone's universe/mental landscape to want to gorge on them, y'know :>

Hehehehe 'uber-describey'!! You should try writing Buffy fic, I think you've got the lingo for it (unlike me-- woe.) Hehehe have you read (http://reenka.expecto-patronum.net/_buffy.html) my one Buffy fic (well, the other (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/164378.html) doesn't really count as Buffy... I don't think...?) Anyway, the thing I love most about Buffy is the lingo (besides Buffy/Spike that is), and man.... I have no lingo. *weeps*

[stellabelle.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I'll have to read that post, then. This stuff is super interesting to me. I should be doing my actual reading, like for my courses, but...no. Haha.

You so have lingo. At least to me! :)

I dunno if I could write Buffy fic, cause...I only really watched the first few seasons. I watch it sometimes in reruns, though. I love the dialogue. It's so hip & witty & funny, heee. And also, cause in the earlier seasons, Angel who = yum. Although. I did write you something, which was kinda unintentional, but. I mean, only if you want it, obviously. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm totally like that too, with fantasy books-- that is, I read the handful of writers I know can deliver, and often enough the people they rec (...though dude, sometimes they have quotes from writers you'd NEVER think would give positive reviews to a book on the cover-- like... it's so disheartening when they have a quote from Neil Gaiman on a crappy book and I'm like NOOooooo WHY GOD WHY-- clearly I do that a lot). Anyway, yeah, I'm an elitist picky bitch, hi :D :D Clearly we need a club >:D

...In fanfic I'm a bit more egalitarian 'cause... uh... there's more porn. If it wasn't for the porn, dude, I'm harsh :D

Yeah... um... I could tell that the longer epic stuff wasn't as tight, so I was semi-avoiding it :> I'm not sure whether I'd like it or not, 'cause as I said, sometimes the drive of the book (emotional, characterization, subject-matter, etc) overcomes my issues with the sprawl of the prose. I mean, I remember -really- digging his characters-- they were kinda... raw-edged and real, methinks. Like, not nice~:)

Hahah, Tower at Stony Wood. Not her best work, since it's Patricia at her most abstract and lyrical-yet-obtuse~:) I'm not sure what to point to-- definitely The Forgotten Beasts of Eld (eeheeeeeeeeeee god I LOVE IT SO MUCH) & the Riddlemaster of Hed trilogy, and I rather admire her lasted, Alphabet of Thorn-- plotty & pretty & tightly-written & character-driven. Yes.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess I maybe have lingo but I dunno if I have -Buffy- style lingo. *wibbles* Um. Also I have less lingo-type-stuff in my fics than in my own conversation. I dunno if I have South Cali-style lingo. ALAS. I SO WANT TO BE KEWL. *WEEPS*

Ahem.

I totally want to see 'it'... whatever 'it' is >:D
You should watch more Buffy!! Watch! Watch! Get tapes! Beg! Steal! IT IS THAT GOOD!!! DO IT FOR THE GOOD OF YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL!!1!!11 Or just because it's really entertaining and OMG YOU LIKE ANGEL YOU FIEND. ACKKKKK *stabAngelstabstabstabstabstab*

....what can I say, I'm a rabid/crazy/insane Buffy/Spike shipper -.- But you haven't really seen Spike in all his chipped glory if you haven't seen past the first few seasons. Then again, I haven't seen Angel in all his glory since I've only seen (regularly) the -last- few seasons~:)) But it's the principle of the thing!! ARG ANGEL ARG.

[stellabelle.livejournal.com]

I totally don't have South Cali-style lingo, lol. I have Dork lingo. But, y'know. I make do with what I have & all that. Um. WE CAN BE NOT-KEWL TOGETHER!

I'll post it tomorrow then, which...um. I cannot explain this fic. I guess it's my subconscious attempt to restore your Draco love through snark, ahaha, although since I can't write, it's probably just mockable. Which can be fun too! It just happened, I CAN'T HELP IT. Heh.

I will watch more Buffy, then. For the good of my soul.

I didn't say I liked Angel, per se. I said I thought he was yum, and there is so totally a difference. Me, shallow? Why yes. Yes I am. ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

EEEEEE!! SISTAHS IN NON-KEWLNESS!!1 LIEK OMG KEWLIEZ1!!1! *DED*

Ahem (why oh why am I so amused by this?? I remember when I first came on the internet in '96 I was using 'kewl' like, all the time, and my bf at the time was like, 'OKAY STOP IT YOU'RE FREAKING ME OUT YOU SHALLOW THING YOU'... he was a bit uptight, but now I can laugh at him... omg EIGHT YEARS LATER).

*sigh* My Draco love is just... on vacation, recuperating, but OMG you -know- I cannot resist Teh Call of Teh Wilde Snark(e). (I so amuse myself, can you tell??) Snarky!Draco = MY FIRST LURVE OMG <3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 LET HIM REIGN AND SMIRK AT HARRY IN A MOCKING, SUPERIOR FASHION WHILE HE FLASHES A HINT OF ARSE FOREVER AND EVER AMEN.

Re: Buffy-- I knew I could bring you to see the Light, my Child(e). *wise, serene nod*

(Angel was semi-hot when he was semi-thin, but then he got BUILT and.... eeeurgh, huge! HUGE! And Buffy got more and more tiny!! ACK IT'S THE ATTACK OF THE KILLER THIGHS!!1)

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I've attempted original fic, and my style tends to be only slightly more detailed, because it strikes me that nobody but me knows what these people look like etc., but I just lose interest in having to do all of that exposition.

when the dialogue sucks too-- like, you can tell the writer is not really 'hearing' it in their head and are just sort of writing down what they think the characters -should- be saying to advance the plot

Yes. And new-writer-itis, where nobody uses contractions and everybody says exactly what they means and ... *shudders*

people just -think- in that way and can't help but transmit it in their writing. And it's that sense that I'm being forced to share an alien brain that bugs me as much as anything :>

Right.

It's why I find reading Dreiser or Dickens such a chore, but like the long description-laden sentences of Faulkner, even though I can't write like him. *G*

I aim for spare and hope for lyrical. Sometimes I succeed. But I think people either like it or they don't, as with any other writer, and I, at least, tend to write the kinds of stories I'd like to read. I think that's a factor as well.