...not earth logic

[reenka]

I guess I miss feeling that innocent atmosphere of -enjoyment- I remember from Nimbus last year; something separate from analysis or enjoyment of analysis-- it's what makes you want to -do- the analysis. Meh. There's a difference between discussing canon and feeling like you want to dictate where canon goes. Alternatively, people who are 100% sure of their canon interpretation also puzzle me in that sort of 'um, why....' sort of way. The least one can do is separate what's personal projection onto the characters and what's an objective-as-possible reading of what the text is saying 'as is'. Even then, hopefully it will remain in context of that particular reader's biases. Claim your bias!! Why does nearly no one do this? Why, why, why, why, why?

Seeing people judge characters as if they were real people outside their context and then compare them and claim they're 'better' (smarter, more deserving of love, anything other than 'more interesting to them as a reader', which is the honest thing to say)-- man. It just turns me off from fandom. All too often, 'discussion' is really an excuse to pick fictional(!) sides and 'put down the enemy', and what fun is that?


It's just a sad day for all involved when I, of all people, am moved to defend Hagrid. I don't even care about Hagrid. Or like, most of the minor characters. I don't even feel militant enough by nature to defend Harry most times. But the sheer amount of bashing and not-Earth logic, man.

I wish there were more people who saw the positive in any character, but that's just too good to be true, isn't it? Well, it still pisses me off.

When one goes from descriptive to prescriptive analysis-- that's where I feel it's not fun anymore, for me at least. That's where one starts feeling the seething bitterness and then what's the point of still reading/writing? It's just bad vibes if there isn't that layer of sheer fun, man.

If I can't get myself to believe I'll make a difference to the people who think Sirius is 'better' than Snape, how can I make a difference to JKR? So it's a choice, as I see it, to accept and outline one's discontent without passing judgment or to set yourself up for disappointment and bitterness.

Perhaps I can only say that because I'm only really invested (in terms of canon) in Harry, but I don't think that's true. I care what happens, I will just allow pretty much anything to happen, because I think when I 'bond' with a story, I'm open to it and allow it to sweep me along. If I enjoy it, I trust the author to entertain me, and if they don't, I stop reading. It all seems so simple, but fandom makes it so complicated....

I'm open to suggestion, I guess. I have no real desire for canon to go in any particular direction, and maybe that makes me a weirdo, I dunno.... All I can say is, I'm interested in the story, but I'm not the one telling it, and I wouldn't if I could. I write fanfic about characters, but these are -my- versions of Harry & Draco, not JKR's. JKR is writing about hers, and can do with them as she wills without drawing judgment from me on her choices until the end; after the end, I can, I suppose, call her a bad writer for said choices and detail where I think she went wrong, but even that won't be very earth-shaking as far as I can see.

I do -wish- to see Ron/Hermione and I -hope- Draco gets utilized and I -hope- Harry doesn't die, but all I really need is for the books to make sense within their own context. As long as I feel I'm reading the same story, it's good enough for me, 'cause that's what I signed up for. The story determines my expectations, and informs my responses. I only like Ron/Hermione or Harry (or Draco, or Snape) as a character 'cause JKR set the books up for me to do so. If she continues to write in a consistent manner, then logically speaking, I shall continue to enjoy it. Simple, no?

In fandom, nothing is ever simple, it seems, past the 'omg, SQUEE' stage. *sigh* Such is life. Maybe I should take another break.

Comments

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I think the problem there (with Hagrid or Sirius or Draco or even Ginny, hell) is that admittely nobody is making an analysis in context. It's not what they care about, they just want to point out their own personal reaction... which wouldn't be problematic if weren't passed for analysis in context or attached to this shir frustration/hate for the disagreeing part / the character's "mindless fangirls".

Also, you can criticise a character in context. I think it's because it's all people are doing right now that it seems so offensive (even intellectually), but context doesn't preclude judgment. Quite the opposite! I mean, take Neville. I have a pretty good idea of who Neville is in canon. H's a good, goofy person. Still don't like him! And could back up my dislike, without even need to be bitchy. <3

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

See... you-- you are reasonable. Most other people I see?... Not so much :/ Those other people probably wouldn't even care/respond to this post, 'cause they'd think it has nothing to do with them since I carefully avoided any obvious finger-pointing and thus precluded any direct bitching-back. I don't really have issues with criticising characters at all, it's just the sense of a personal vendetta/crusade I get so much of the time that is starting to become a bit much. I think there's that not-so-thin line where you pass from, y'know, lit-crit into, well-- wank.

Even if people wanted to point out what their issue was, that would be fine. But no, they fight about it amongst themselves-- 'I am more right than YOU, BITCHES!!' vs. 'No, -I- am more right than -you-, IMBECILES!!1'-- that sort of... gets to me, when it's under the context of 'canon discussion'.

I don't like 'mindless fangirlism' either, but mindless bitching is just as disgusting and more polluting, -I- think, 'cause usually -these- people like to pretend they're being 'intellectually rigorous' or some such crap. Squee = squee, at least those people aren't like 'our squee doesn't smell', if you know what I mean.

I don't actually necessarily -like- Neville and well, Tonks & Lucius & Lavender (off the top of my head) annoy me, say. But I don't have a personal mission to prove their suckage to the world, through putting down of whoever seems to be their 'opposite'. That -really- gets me. If you like Slytherins, obviously it means you HATE Gryffindors and think they're worthless losers, because clearly the world is made up of polarities and you must take sides and MOCK THE ENEMY. That attitude makes me so angry, THERE ARE NO WORDS >:O Just. It's best for me not to go there, because I get rabid, incoherent and somewhat violent.

Your saying H. is goofy & and a good person made me happy, thank you <333333333333333

[malafede.livejournal.com]

eeeh, that was actually supposed to be "he" (A TYPO WHAT A SURPRISE) but if it makes you feel better, i think harry's rather good and goofy himself. less goofy than neville, though.

see, the problem is always the absence of life in the mind. but the truth is out there, people. worship the mulder, bitch. ahaha, you know, i actually feel kind of sorry for whoever is so obsessed with mocking the enemy, but then again, at the same time i wish to god they realised how pointless it is.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHA I ACTUALLY THOUGHT 'H.' STOOD FOR HAGRID, AHAHAHAH <3 um. Anyway, moving on ^^;;; (we'll just... uh... decide everyone's... uh... not-so-bad by group pardon....? maybe....??)

HEE. Yeah, 'cause mocking the enemy only makes you a tool of said enemy. Not to mention that it makes you look stupid & juvenile. And also rather WRONG, AHAHAHAHAHA.

I have a personal vendetta against people who have a personal vendetta, especially Slytherin-sympathizers against Gryffindor types, 'cause that's so hypocritical, not to mention pathetic. 'Oh, we're all for the oppressed.... NOW LET'S TRY AND OPPRESS THE OPPRESSORS, CLEARLY THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES TO LOOK COOL AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE!!1'

[malafede.livejournal.com]

BUT THE SLYTHERINS ARE OPPRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....................

*destroys credibility*

(hagrid's good and... stupid.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, I totally said 'yeah, Slytherins/Draco/etc are the textual laughing stock/beating boys/oppressed minority', until everyone and their brother (read: more people than Sister Magpie & Maya) took up the banner and ran with it into what I see as the abyss. I just want someone to show the 'good'/interest to be seen in the Slytherins -without- putting the others down or saying they're stupid/worthless/pathetic. That's mostly what sounds like weak projection tactics to me.

It reminds me of that person in the R/Hr vs. H/Hr ship debate at Nimbus who was like... 'JAMES MUST DIE BECAUSE I WAS LIKE SNAPE AT SCHOOL & I WAS BULLIED BY PEOPLE LIKE JAMES'. Or something. It's the polarity/duality that drives me up the wall and into the next dimension of irritability. meh. It's this need to CHOOSE SIDES OR ELSE.

'Oppression', as a word, chooses the side of 'the oppressed' and labels the whole dynamic as a simple user/used power dichotomy. I think it's more complex than that; I think it'd be more interesting if it was more complex than that, sort of like the issues between Sirius & Snape. It's a circle of misunderstanding and victimization of one by the other until you can't tell where is the cause and where is the effect. Where is the chicken and where is the egg?? Who abused who first?

First there was Tom & the Death Eaters, then the Marauders' children came around to steal the flag back, then the Slytherins were oppressed again and had to 'fight back' and then the Gryffindors have to fight back and then, and then... it goes on and on. Eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye until we have a world of blind men and EVERYONE IS OPPRESSED. And oppressor. At the same time, like you said-- they don't negate each other, just because the victim victimizes, yes, they perpetuate the cycle, but by privileging one victim over the other you yourself perpetuate the cycle, by picking a side.....

Y'know? Just because -currently- it seems like the Slytherins are 'more' oppressed doesn't mean this won't be completely the opposite 10/20 years from now, or 100/200 years from now, and actually I think this is JKR's point, but even if it isn't, it's still pathetic that people feel the need to feed into this fictional(!!) cycle. Bleh.

Also, as far as the Buckbeak scene, you could also make the argument that Draco was being equally stupid (in a different way). If you wanted. Reckless, anyway. Though I'll give you Grawp or whatever his name is, but I actually 'got' that and would've done the same, whatever that says about me.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah! I think now I'm getting it. Because I was thinking, "Is this me or not?" Heh. I mean...because you mentioned the "good guys are evil too," and that's kind of the sort of thing I'm always noticing in canon. Though for me it's not that they're evil or that they need to be punished but that it seems like the bad guys are just so taken care of at this point the more interesting story is in where this fight will take the good guys. So, like, I did when I read see potential evil versions of many characters--but not in a way that was like, "They must be punished!" more like..."they must learn this or they will be unhappy and in trouble..."

For me that's probably where the Slytherins etc. come in, because I can just see them as angry, stupid, emotional kids who aren't paying attention to what they're doing either, so I don't know if I'd be able to buy any other explanation of them (like that they are teh evol and must be punished!). But at the same time that's what the other kids are too. So it creeps me out when people scramble on either side and seem to take exactly what's *wrong* with their thought processes and celebrate that.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, ideas in general don't offend me-- at least, a lot of it depends on the use they're put to. That's exactly it-- it creeps me out when people get all rabid & vengeful and extremist and pick sides and draw lines in the sand and so on. I mean, I realize it's not just fandom, it's typical human behavior, but it really annoys me more when they're acting like it's lit-crit and there are all these politics involved. Fictional politics, even. How wrong is that?

I just feel like... it's a form of separatism, which again wouldn't be -as- offensive to me if it wasn't coupled with mockery of the 'other kind'. And I suppose 'fan' stands for fanatic, but... this whole behavior pattern seems so self-destructive and alienating and mostly it just freaks me out and makes me want to just-- not be a part of this community, I guess.

edited for diplomacy

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Dudette, you must totally give me a link to the Hagrid bashing now.

I said that about Slytherin because I thought it was funny. :D You are easy to poke. However, I think the mistake people pretty much commit is to confuse the two levels. That the Slytherins are the meta victims doesn't mean they are victims in canon. And the fact that, say, JKR has a crush on Spike Sirius doesn't mean he isn't a victim in life.

And I am annoyed as hell at self-righteous attitudes, too. Wtf means Sirius deserves to die because he was an asshole when he was a boy? Gee, then what are you going to do with Snape, who was a terrorist? Oh, no, wait... (Of course, this happens with Snape regularly too.)

AHAHA, ACTUALLY. I WANT TO POST AN ESSAY OVER HOW MUCH NEVILLE TYPES OPPRESSED ME IN MY YOUTH.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah I'm so tempted to tell you I was Neville-like in my youth just to see how you'd take it, but I don't think I was. Was and am shy & antisocial, but then we've no evidence Neville is either, actually. In fact I think I was usually lazy 'cause things came too easily to me, so I'm not much with the Nevilleness. Actually those people who aren't as good as me? Meh. Must oppress :D :D :D

I -am- easy to poke >:D *coughs* I shouldn't say that with a big grin, should I???
Mostly, I don't see the meta/canon distinction made, man. MEH, I say. MEH.

Hagrid mess here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/iibnf/876255.html), btw. Ph34r my amazing memory (and google searching)skillz :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahhh no, that's the Hagrid defense :(( I don't remember where I'm getting all this from. Have no right to be cocky, for my memory is as swiss cheese :/ Although there is some anti-Hagrid sentiment among the comments there, really not a lot. Still uh... she must be responding to something...?? Dunno :/ There was more though.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Ahaha, I do remember the Hagrid "attacks" then, and I think I was part of it. :P Perspective thing says that I was pretty damn pissed at people trying to guilt-trip me by assuming I disliked him (I didn't even -.- I just didn't like him) because he was fat. Right. And I think I'll go to the D_S now to search for it.

Nooo. Neville-types (anyway this is supposed to be kind of humorous because people aren't stereotypes and yet other people insist they are - and they are bad, of course) aren't social but they'd love to, know what I mean? Also, not very smart. But they were so good! And oppressed by the mean pretty girls.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Here you go."> (http://www.livejournal.com/users/kelly_holden/58450.html)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

If you like Slytherins, obviously it means you HATE Gryffindors and think they're worthless losers, because clearly the world is made up of polarities and you must take sides and MOCK THE ENEMY.

I don't want to anger or upset you, but to me, that's the attitude presented in the books first, before fandom even occured...

I mean, fandom is dominant here, obviously, since we're in it, but I'm not seeing the hating in saying 'All characters have flaws and good points.' There's no need for people to say for example 'Hagrid cares about people and animals and has benign motivations' or 'Draco has flaws that equal Harry's/Ron's/Insert Gryff here, Slytherin house has flaws to equal Gryffindor house' because those sides of their characters are already being presented in the text. You can't fail to notice that Hagrid adores Harry, for example; or that Harry's pettiness is eclipsed by Draco's.
So fandom focusses on Hagrid's flaws or Draco/Snape/Insert Baddie here's good qualities because these sides to their characters' aren't being presented in canon.
Just my .02 cents.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I suppose it's like this: I appreciate (and I think, do) explore things that aren't touched upon in canon, but feel it's only really relevant when you put it in specific context of canon discussion without assuming that everyone agrees on what, exactly, canon -says-, which often they don't. Also, my major beef is with people whose 'canon logic' and understanding are majorly clouded by obvious bias-- and any unbalanced view is automatically biased. What bugs me is egregious logic errors more than any particular pov anyone wants to take-- I don't really care-- I'll just call them stupid and narrow-minded and move on, but I find really messed-up reasoning to be offensive for some reason. It's an issue.

More than anything, I feel that this highlighting of the Slytherins (or other issues, more narrowly focused on particular characters) leads a lot of the people to make fun of and mock and ridicule and refuse to listen to opposing povs. They over-identify with their 'pet constituency' as if this is real-life politics or something rather than, you know, another piece of fiction like any other, and then go on to continuously mock whoever disagrees. That... that just really pisses me off.