...not earth logic

[reenka]

I guess I miss feeling that innocent atmosphere of -enjoyment- I remember from Nimbus last year; something separate from analysis or enjoyment of analysis-- it's what makes you want to -do- the analysis. Meh. There's a difference between discussing canon and feeling like you want to dictate where canon goes. Alternatively, people who are 100% sure of their canon interpretation also puzzle me in that sort of 'um, why....' sort of way. The least one can do is separate what's personal projection onto the characters and what's an objective-as-possible reading of what the text is saying 'as is'. Even then, hopefully it will remain in context of that particular reader's biases. Claim your bias!! Why does nearly no one do this? Why, why, why, why, why?

Seeing people judge characters as if they were real people outside their context and then compare them and claim they're 'better' (smarter, more deserving of love, anything other than 'more interesting to them as a reader', which is the honest thing to say)-- man. It just turns me off from fandom. All too often, 'discussion' is really an excuse to pick fictional(!) sides and 'put down the enemy', and what fun is that?


It's just a sad day for all involved when I, of all people, am moved to defend Hagrid. I don't even care about Hagrid. Or like, most of the minor characters. I don't even feel militant enough by nature to defend Harry most times. But the sheer amount of bashing and not-Earth logic, man.

I wish there were more people who saw the positive in any character, but that's just too good to be true, isn't it? Well, it still pisses me off.

When one goes from descriptive to prescriptive analysis-- that's where I feel it's not fun anymore, for me at least. That's where one starts feeling the seething bitterness and then what's the point of still reading/writing? It's just bad vibes if there isn't that layer of sheer fun, man.

If I can't get myself to believe I'll make a difference to the people who think Sirius is 'better' than Snape, how can I make a difference to JKR? So it's a choice, as I see it, to accept and outline one's discontent without passing judgment or to set yourself up for disappointment and bitterness.

Perhaps I can only say that because I'm only really invested (in terms of canon) in Harry, but I don't think that's true. I care what happens, I will just allow pretty much anything to happen, because I think when I 'bond' with a story, I'm open to it and allow it to sweep me along. If I enjoy it, I trust the author to entertain me, and if they don't, I stop reading. It all seems so simple, but fandom makes it so complicated....

I'm open to suggestion, I guess. I have no real desire for canon to go in any particular direction, and maybe that makes me a weirdo, I dunno.... All I can say is, I'm interested in the story, but I'm not the one telling it, and I wouldn't if I could. I write fanfic about characters, but these are -my- versions of Harry & Draco, not JKR's. JKR is writing about hers, and can do with them as she wills without drawing judgment from me on her choices until the end; after the end, I can, I suppose, call her a bad writer for said choices and detail where I think she went wrong, but even that won't be very earth-shaking as far as I can see.

I do -wish- to see Ron/Hermione and I -hope- Draco gets utilized and I -hope- Harry doesn't die, but all I really need is for the books to make sense within their own context. As long as I feel I'm reading the same story, it's good enough for me, 'cause that's what I signed up for. The story determines my expectations, and informs my responses. I only like Ron/Hermione or Harry (or Draco, or Snape) as a character 'cause JKR set the books up for me to do so. If she continues to write in a consistent manner, then logically speaking, I shall continue to enjoy it. Simple, no?

In fandom, nothing is ever simple, it seems, past the 'omg, SQUEE' stage. *sigh* Such is life. Maybe I should take another break.

Comments

[lucretius.livejournal.com]

Heh. You are such a reasonable critic and theorist in a context that doesn't really much prize reasonable criticism or theory.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*grins* I am a lone crusader in a world that doesn't appreciate me :D :D Do I attempt to tame the savages or do I minimize my losses and move on to greener, more 'reasonable' pastures, if in fact those exist in the presence of human beings....?

[lucretius.livejournal.com]

One approach would be to get enough distance to write about it critically as a cultural phenomenon, etc., using some academic framework or another.

I think this gets done an awful lot. There is no academic discourse that's fundamentally more reasonable than squee-ish fandom; however, eventually you might get tenure.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You know I disagree with the premise that the text should be taken as is, and any deviating reading has to be conditioned by dishonest bias, but. I hate dishonest bias in discussion like the next person... doesn't. I think these tactics are so ingrained and internalised people don't recognize them anymore. I mean, they're wide-spread, aren't they? Everybody does it, so it can't be that bad.

I don't think there's anything wrong arguing over different impressions of what a text is saying (character-wise, romance-wise, plot-wise, ethos-wise...) but I have the distinct impression most people jumping in these sad sad wrestling matches of the brain aren't aware they're arguing differences. They're converting the heretic, showing the stupid, because just the stupid could disagree with them, no?

Of course it gets even harder when everyone in a discussion is doing it. It's not about the character at all. The characters are just convenient excuse. I mean, who's pretending our personal idea of character X (character X in our mind) is not 80% projection, or personal history? ...Actually, a lot of people. Of course, then they go and rave and they aren't raving about Sirius at all. It's about them, not that anybody sees it.

What happened with Hagrid? I disagree we must see the good in every character. Is this... an intellectual obligation or a moral one? I try to see the good in every ... real human being around me, but characters don't deserve the same kind of human respect, since they are, like, not human. I don't think there's anything bad at all hating a character, or thinking he's written crappily, or if the point he's making pisses the hell out of you. It's just all about being honest. It's rather obvious Hagrid is a person that means well (it couldn't possibly be otherwise given to his author's obsession for the heart), so saying he's evil-minded is simply the substitution of your real motivation with something you know will make more impact on the audience, will help your cause more, say.

I only like Ron/Hermione or Harry (or Draco, or Snape) as a character 'cause JKR set the books up for me to do so. If she continues to write in a consistent manner, then logically speaking, I shall continue to enjoy it. Simple, no?

No? Because she's not that good, or rather, universal, at what she does. Sometimes her intent doesn't get through, or is awkwardly expressed, and well, this is not a collective brain reading. So everyone's got to have their different reactions. It's all fine and dandy to try and see what the author is trying to say, doesn't mean one necessarily has to agree, or even, get it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm just. So tired of this. Tired. So I'm quitting, man. The meta isn't making me happy, and the fandom isn't making me happy, so to hell with it. I need a break. It's been upsetting me and for no good reason and I'm in fandom to -enjoy- it and I haven't been enjoying it, and to each their own but this isn't my thing, so. Yeah. Woo. It feels good. I'm free! Free as a bird! I'M DONE.

...! -That- makes me happy.

It's all about-- being in fandom -because- I enjoy/like/get the books and/or the fics. I don't dig the fics so much these days, and I still dig the books but fuck it. The fandom isn't an enriching experience for that. -I- find the books 'good enough' to be archetypical if not universal, and I see things from a very archetypical pov in general, so that prolly helps.

It's not about having different reactions. It's about people being really negative and that making -me- negative and irritable and upset. And I don't need that. I don't need people to agree with me-- far from it-- but when everything becomes about arguing & bitching, it's just too much. It's not fun. It's 'meh'. Who cares? So they're bad books? Forget about it. I'd rather not dwell on that sort of thing, and that's just me, so that's why I'm leaving fandom instead of like, carrying out some jihad against it.

I don't mean 'as is' in the sense of 'as the author intended'. I mean, 'as is' in terms of-- talking about canon in terms of anything -but- canon is starting to drive me up the wall. I mean 'as is' in terms of... I miss taking things in context. I miss feeling like I'm actually talking about these characters instead of their meta representations in the outside world. It's not -invalid-, it's just not a fun fandom time for me. Yeah, everyone does it, and I don't like that game, so I'm not gonna play, I guess.

Different impressions is one thing-- constant sniping and bitching is another. *shrug* It's just so much negativity, dude. Just like Slytherlynx was saying. Well, now I'm feeling it, and it's just... bringing me down. Which is a sign to just-- step away. Which I will. Which I am.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

... Are you angry at people not liking the books? Because I can get the frustration, I really really do, and am sorry if I caused you stress and unhappiness. But it's really difficult for me to shut up, and buy it that it's because I'm not a proper fan, because a proper fan doesn't criticise, because that's not negativity as far as I am concerned - I'm not trying to stuff my opinion down your throat (or at least, I don't think I do), and I am perfectly happy to be here to share an universe which is part of all of our imagination. I feel... it's the attempts at shutting me up that bring out the worse in me, you know? I'm not trying to wind anyone who enjoys the book up, I'm just asking them to avoid labelling me as a negative heretic faux-subversive twat. :( If someone doesn't like a character, they shouldn't be asked to shut it, because they're being negative. Unless they're trying actively to ruin the fun of everyone who enjoys said character by guilt-tripping them in some way. By insulting them and desrespecting their base humanity, you know?

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Okay, strike that, rather obviously I am not a fan. But still I don't think it makes me a misplaced fandom cancer. I have an investment in this, too. Otherwise, rather obviously... I would go away.

(Okay, do I win the prize for paranoid of the year yet? Anyway, I'm sorry for all the links I sent you that obviously upset you. I'm feeling very very at peace with the world at the moment and I forget that it's not the same for everyone else, it's not a outburst cause by excess anxiety needing whatever catalyst.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I'm overreacting. I've seen the OoTP/character X/whatever-aspect-of-the-books/JKR sucks for awhile now, and it's been building. I would never want to shut anyone up, it's more like-- that's the only thing I see. Where is the balance? Where is the love?? That's what I want to know. Instead of bashing character X, why don't they praise character Y???! Meh.

The Dead Dog Party is like, a great metaphor for everything that I find wrong with fandom these days. There's the mindless squeeing and loads of H/D fluff & then there's CANON SUCKS :/ :/ :/

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I think there's an amount of POV interference here, because the only thing I felt I was seeing until now was the religious author/canon love and the attempts at guilt-tripping everyone else. So it's either me having a persecution complex or you having it or just that perspective sometimes sucks. And, well, canonical extremists can be just as fanatic and hateful. Gryffindor Tower?

Also, while one can say that canon suck (I don't, but I will say: "canon has some huge problems) they're still in love with at least one part of it. Death Eaters? Snape? Draco? Slytherin? Marietta? Yeah, it's all subversive, but that's love too. And there's also people like me who say: Harry's a prick, Sirius's a prick, the twins are prick, no they aren't ethically justified, but I love them. Just like their Author wanted!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Maybe I have the wrong people on my flist...? Or something....?? Plus I don't exactly read the Daily Snitch... but then, I don't want to. I don't really have this great hunger for HP canon-meta, it's just all the meta I see tends to be negative crit, which is not of the making-Reena-happy. I don't -follow- Gryffindor Tower or whatever people, I guess. I have my little 70-or-so person H/D centric flist and that's it, y'know. I don't surf around. I only read what I'm linked to. So there's that. I don't think I have a persecution complex (...I've never had one before... just not my style)-- I just feel overwhelmed by the stupidity and negativity and... the not-Earth logic, as I said. It wouldn't be half so bad if people weren't using such bloody stupid arguments.

Me, I'm tired of asking whether people are ethically justified all the time-- I don't like to police either people or fictional characters. I'm not directing this at you, I'm just saying all this judgmental 'this character is an awful prick and should be punished by FATE or an act of GOD and/or DIE FOR HIS SINS' or whatever just turns me way off :/ People are so mean. In laying down this judgement, they're just as mean as the people they're judging. When -everything- about someone's personality/spirit is about the amount of justification you can/can't direct at their actions... man, I'm outta there. I like -people- and their stories and their hearts, bitter and twisted and beautiful AS WE ALL ARE, DAMMIT IT ALL TO HELL. Plus, ethics = subjective = basic anthropology/sociology concept, etc. Mostly, all the 'X character is/isn't any better than Y' seems like a waste of time, but mostly it just upsets me.

Everyone is an asshole sometimes, but that's not all there is of them to know or love, right? People are multidimensional, complex, contradictory, intractable, difficult to pin down... interesting people, and Harry & Sirius & Draco & Snape are all what I consider 'interesting'. To reduce it all to 'yucky incorrect behavior' (even if one still 'doesn't mind') just... makes me sad.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

eeeeh! that's what i was saying. there was this great essay where it was pointed out so clearly that morals are not *all* there is to a character. as for me, i love talking morals, and i hate passing judgments, and i hate when the "goodness" of a character is equalled with their moral fibre because that's missing the point where they have to behuman we've got to feel empathy. but then there's this obsession with "good person" so all the character discussion tends to focus on their moral fallacies (if you hate them) or their lack of moral fallacies/being perfectly justified in their moral fallacies.

dude, i love the twins so much, but they are fucking mean. so what? eh. same with draco. maybe i should take eloquency pills.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

<3.... at least we are not alone in our oppression ....??? AHAHAHAHAH

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It's not you, man. I know your context & I know -you-, so it's fine, it's just... all the negativity. EVERYWHERE. It's everywhere. I was at Nimbus and it was so great, 'cause everyone didn't -agree- they just agreed they loved to discuss and they loved the books and it was fun!! FUN!! I want my fun! And I mean, clearly -you're- not ruining any fun (since it's fun talking to you), but it's just.... blah-blah-OoTP-sucked-blah & blah-blah-JKR-is-a-bitch-blah & blah-blah-the-good-guys-are-evil-too-blah & blah-blah-Sirius-is-a-prick-from-hell-blah and it just. It feels like, WHY AM I HERE??!??!??! Why have all these people not burnt the books (or at least OoTP) in some sort of effigy of hatred??!?!?! (...not you... me... stress... random people with projection issues.... ok? <3)

So. It seems reasonable (for me) to avoid HP meta-- for a while-- no? I mean... I was always in the fandom for H/D porn, not canon, but not many people I loved the fics of -write- those fics anymore, and... there's just this orgy of Sirius/Harry/Draco/Hagrid/Ron/etcetc hate that I COULD JUST SCREAM. So. Stepping -away- before someone gets hurt ;)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I think... the love for the characters is not gone away - maybe the love for JKR has (or maybe it's become more jaded) and I think the real problem with this is the bitterness more than the criticism per se. And I am quite bitter myself. Also it's not just a "JKR sucks!!!" it's more of a "THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANTED AND SHE OWNED IT TO ME!!!" just like you said. Or Sirius owned it to you, or Draco, or they both suck and why people persist in loving them?

So even the people who're being negative now, I am sure, think theirs is a defence. I'm not saying they're perfectly logical, because you *know* how mad I was when OTPer of the Day looked like she was more into bashing the competition than loving her OTP. But I guess... from their POV, it's just the same? Why I am being oppressed by all this love for things I think are negative as concepts, and then being told to shut up? It's warped because it translates into wars and rabidness but I guess what I am saying is... there's love behind the frustration? I guess what I am saying is justthat I don't want you to go away. We should challenge each other to make very very positive post?

You know I had this total rant not about JKR but about being told to shut up and I've been editing it for two days now because I realised, after writing it, how aggressive it was. I don't want to be aggressive but just explain myself. I don't think any of this bitching would bother you if it was, in fact, just presented in its proper form of "textual discussion". Would it? All the people here love the books to some extent. It's just a difficult time lately because the Author of the books had made some incendiary (from the pov of her fanbase, so this is not an attack to her) statements that brought really into focus the base attitude of everyone towards certain sections of the books - the Slytherins, always the Slytherins - and because the Slytherins are connected to everyone else being the foils, then the focus is on everyone else too. It's just that people are emotional. It's their love that they feel attacked, not so much by JKR but rather by the rest of the fandom.

I mean, take you and me. You are upset by the negativity, and I am upset by the opposite feeling, positivity at all costs. But for none of us these concepts imply being hateful or oppressive (or rather, I don't think I am "negative" in a way that's hateful). It's just that most people cannot separate themselves from their emotions. Hell I know I can't. I always thought owning it was honest enough, but it's clear it upsets you all the same. You say it's not me, but it's got to be me, at least in part. I'm always posting here my peeves with Rowling. I'm sorry. Does it consoles you that I still love a lot of what she created? And that I am sure, everyone still does, too? It's just a moment of... revolution, probably, everyone is trying to understand how they stand on this issue. So it will settle down - at least partly, in a way that can be acceptable because it's the tenor of negativeness and emotional bias that is everywhere in the world, not just in fandom.

Let's create a community for talk of canon? Just canon, no meta? About subjects we enjoy? Sounds cheesy, but it could save us all a lot of bile. It's like... Five Minute Love, or whatever.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oooh. Let's create a community for H/D discussion? Reasonable, non hateful, focused discussion? <33333

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

YES!! That sounds great :D :D :D I like the canon idea too, but that requires more thought as to the format (I'm thinking, maybe we could re-read OoTP together and post takes on it chapter by chapter?? heeeee!!!! FUN!! And get SM to join? Or someone neutralish..... NEUTRALITY RULES!!!!) um.

yes. *breathes*
WHEEEE H/D META FOR EVERYONE!! :D :D :D

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Cen we call the H/D community "unromantic" or does that sounds too confrontational even if I am actually not taking the piss of anyone because the fatc that it's so unromantic is so... terribly romantic to me? :D :D :D

Anyway, I'll be wracking my brain all afternoon over community-names. for the canon one, too. and i so think we should actually restart from PS. <3 we should call it "down the wizard's hole" or something. you know, a community that's only about what's *inside* the book. what is the truth of these scenes?

alice is pretty neutralish? i have a couple persons i think are very reasonable. the trick is not to pimp it. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

OMG!!! ACK, YEAH, STARTING FROM `PHILOSOPHER'S STONE', WHICH I HAVEN'T EVEN READ THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH (well, not the last chapter or two, which I skimmed)!!!! *BOUNCES AROUND!!!* THIS IS SO EXCITING OMG!!1!!11 NO, DUDE, SERIOUSLY, AM GLEEFUL AS ALL GET OUT RIGHT NOW!! YEAYYYYYYYY!!! :D :D :D!!1

Down the Wizard's Hole, teehee :D :D OMG THIS IS SO EXCITING!!1 :D :D!!1 (we could pimp it but set it so only a few people have commenting/posting rights, teeheee... maybe anyway) OMG YEAY.

If Alice agreed, that would be great :D :D :D!!! *bounces everywhere* MY ENTHUSIASM IS SUDDENLY BACK, WHAT A SURPRISE!! :D!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, I definitely feel like canon/JKR doesn't owe me anything, so I'm pretty zen. Placing expecattions/implicit demands on the text can only lead to disappointment-- though I suppose it's hard to avoid entirely, 'cause even I don't want Harry/Ginny to happen but sometimes I really think it will, and it will be painful, though somehow I will soldier on :> I imagine it must suck being a Harry/Hermione shipper, for instance, too, and I agree that to some extent I'm just lucky I'm so focused on Harry to the exclusion of everything else, but I -do- just read the story-for-the-story's-sake and as long as the story doesn't betray -itself-, I'm fine. It's weird... I mean, I always -root- for things to happen in stories, but if I -like- the book overall, generally I can be sold on something I thought I didn't want-- that's what good stories -do-. Y'know? And if it's not good, then it's not, and I try to let go-- that simple. To me, anyway.

I mean, I -adored- the comic, `The Books of Magic', as written by John Ney Reiber. I adored it much more than I adored JKR's writing (though I'd be hard-pressed to say whether I loved Tim as much as Harry, but anyway that's a stupid question). Anyway, then another writer took over and the book became CRAP. Complete, utter, irredeemable CRAP. The main character wasn't even -recognizable- anymore, and the plot-arc was totally unrelated and this felt like a TRAVESTY. I -adored- this series and it was RUINED, y'know? Was I upset? Hell yah. Did I stop reading & try to forget? Yeah. Do I still shudder with horror at the sight of the new series? Yeah. But. It happens, y'know. I don't feel it's a personal insult to me-- it just sucks, y'know? With JKR, on the other hand, at least it's still gonna be her vision-- her writing. How different can it get?? So I guess I wasn't setting my hopes up too high, either. I just want the same product, hopefully. I set my expectations rather low :> Then again, I thought OoTP was a great book & half the fandom didn't, apparently, so clearly I'm no great judge of anything ;))

You're not the aggressive one. I think you should be -more- aggressive, but then, you amuse me & other people don't ;)) *is clearly NOT AT ALL BIASED*

It's really not you. Honest! I mean... I always know where you're coming from and you explain yourself well and use reasonable (overly reasonable at times!) language and try to see the other side to some extent and you don't bash anyone. I just snapped-- it's been building for awhile now, believe me. I've been negative in the past myself, and I -know- all about the desire to bitch/complain/etc (um... I'm sure you've noticed), it's just... I dunno, I felt like it wasn't any fun, and I was probably overreacting, but then, I never felt fandom was a 'good idea' in the first place, y'know? Time-suck, soul-suck, time-wasting endless ruin of my life that it is ;))

Usually I guess I justify it by saying it's -fun-, but all the 'meh' feeling isn't fun. Still, I was overreacting :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, the Hagrid... was kinda random, but it was an example of a character I don't care about but see such wild jihad-type hate directed against that I'm boggled. I don't think we need to actively see the good in every character-- hell, I don't care about 98% of all the characters in the first place, y'know. It's more of a question of being fair in your -analysis- rather than just your -response-. Analysis shouldn't be that riddled with 'well, I have issues with him, therefore I will only look at the negative parts of his aspects...'

Every character should be seen in context if you're doing lit-crit, aside from your actual opinion on that character as a reader. I don't care about Hagrid in the slightest, so that's why he was a good example. Meh. It's all... using a character as a tool of your pet interpretation of canon that pisses me off. it's all the projection involved where you say 'I wouldn't want a teacher like that', for instance. 'He's not my type of guy' isn't the same as analysing him as a character, dammit!

Draco, for instance, reminds me of my ex, and a lot of the reason I'm drawn to him is because of my relationship-type with my ex has similar issues that H/D does, okay. Now... that may inspire my affection/interest in H/D, but it doesn't influence my analysis if I can help it. I actively fought it in the early stages of my fandom experience, trying to distance myself and identify my areas of projection/fanonization. I at least -attempt- to see -Draco- and not J., my ex-boyfriend. I think I do pretty well, personally.

I don't think everyone should love every character, but rampant bitching... that's not a great fandom experience. Analysis and bitching should not be synonymous. Maybe I'm wrong, but then, I'll leave people to their idea of fun. I just want... a balance. I want to feel like I'm learning something or getting something new or positive from fandom and/or the meta I read, and I'm not. There's no sense that I'm communicating productively and being a useful member/contributor to fandom, so. Yeah....

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I think the problem there (with Hagrid or Sirius or Draco or even Ginny, hell) is that admittely nobody is making an analysis in context. It's not what they care about, they just want to point out their own personal reaction... which wouldn't be problematic if weren't passed for analysis in context or attached to this shir frustration/hate for the disagreeing part / the character's "mindless fangirls".

Also, you can criticise a character in context. I think it's because it's all people are doing right now that it seems so offensive (even intellectually), but context doesn't preclude judgment. Quite the opposite! I mean, take Neville. I have a pretty good idea of who Neville is in canon. H's a good, goofy person. Still don't like him! And could back up my dislike, without even need to be bitchy. <3

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

See... you-- you are reasonable. Most other people I see?... Not so much :/ Those other people probably wouldn't even care/respond to this post, 'cause they'd think it has nothing to do with them since I carefully avoided any obvious finger-pointing and thus precluded any direct bitching-back. I don't really have issues with criticising characters at all, it's just the sense of a personal vendetta/crusade I get so much of the time that is starting to become a bit much. I think there's that not-so-thin line where you pass from, y'know, lit-crit into, well-- wank.

Even if people wanted to point out what their issue was, that would be fine. But no, they fight about it amongst themselves-- 'I am more right than YOU, BITCHES!!' vs. 'No, -I- am more right than -you-, IMBECILES!!1'-- that sort of... gets to me, when it's under the context of 'canon discussion'.

I don't like 'mindless fangirlism' either, but mindless bitching is just as disgusting and more polluting, -I- think, 'cause usually -these- people like to pretend they're being 'intellectually rigorous' or some such crap. Squee = squee, at least those people aren't like 'our squee doesn't smell', if you know what I mean.

I don't actually necessarily -like- Neville and well, Tonks & Lucius & Lavender (off the top of my head) annoy me, say. But I don't have a personal mission to prove their suckage to the world, through putting down of whoever seems to be their 'opposite'. That -really- gets me. If you like Slytherins, obviously it means you HATE Gryffindors and think they're worthless losers, because clearly the world is made up of polarities and you must take sides and MOCK THE ENEMY. That attitude makes me so angry, THERE ARE NO WORDS >:O Just. It's best for me not to go there, because I get rabid, incoherent and somewhat violent.

Your saying H. is goofy & and a good person made me happy, thank you <333333333333333

[malafede.livejournal.com]

eeeh, that was actually supposed to be "he" (A TYPO WHAT A SURPRISE) but if it makes you feel better, i think harry's rather good and goofy himself. less goofy than neville, though.

see, the problem is always the absence of life in the mind. but the truth is out there, people. worship the mulder, bitch. ahaha, you know, i actually feel kind of sorry for whoever is so obsessed with mocking the enemy, but then again, at the same time i wish to god they realised how pointless it is.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHA I ACTUALLY THOUGHT 'H.' STOOD FOR HAGRID, AHAHAHAH <3 um. Anyway, moving on ^^;;; (we'll just... uh... decide everyone's... uh... not-so-bad by group pardon....? maybe....??)

HEE. Yeah, 'cause mocking the enemy only makes you a tool of said enemy. Not to mention that it makes you look stupid & juvenile. And also rather WRONG, AHAHAHAHAHA.

I have a personal vendetta against people who have a personal vendetta, especially Slytherin-sympathizers against Gryffindor types, 'cause that's so hypocritical, not to mention pathetic. 'Oh, we're all for the oppressed.... NOW LET'S TRY AND OPPRESS THE OPPRESSORS, CLEARLY THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES TO LOOK COOL AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE!!1'

[malafede.livejournal.com]

BUT THE SLYTHERINS ARE OPPRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....................

*destroys credibility*

(hagrid's good and... stupid.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, I totally said 'yeah, Slytherins/Draco/etc are the textual laughing stock/beating boys/oppressed minority', until everyone and their brother (read: more people than Sister Magpie & Maya) took up the banner and ran with it into what I see as the abyss. I just want someone to show the 'good'/interest to be seen in the Slytherins -without- putting the others down or saying they're stupid/worthless/pathetic. That's mostly what sounds like weak projection tactics to me.

It reminds me of that person in the R/Hr vs. H/Hr ship debate at Nimbus who was like... 'JAMES MUST DIE BECAUSE I WAS LIKE SNAPE AT SCHOOL & I WAS BULLIED BY PEOPLE LIKE JAMES'. Or something. It's the polarity/duality that drives me up the wall and into the next dimension of irritability. meh. It's this need to CHOOSE SIDES OR ELSE.

'Oppression', as a word, chooses the side of 'the oppressed' and labels the whole dynamic as a simple user/used power dichotomy. I think it's more complex than that; I think it'd be more interesting if it was more complex than that, sort of like the issues between Sirius & Snape. It's a circle of misunderstanding and victimization of one by the other until you can't tell where is the cause and where is the effect. Where is the chicken and where is the egg?? Who abused who first?

First there was Tom & the Death Eaters, then the Marauders' children came around to steal the flag back, then the Slytherins were oppressed again and had to 'fight back' and then the Gryffindors have to fight back and then, and then... it goes on and on. Eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye until we have a world of blind men and EVERYONE IS OPPRESSED. And oppressor. At the same time, like you said-- they don't negate each other, just because the victim victimizes, yes, they perpetuate the cycle, but by privileging one victim over the other you yourself perpetuate the cycle, by picking a side.....

Y'know? Just because -currently- it seems like the Slytherins are 'more' oppressed doesn't mean this won't be completely the opposite 10/20 years from now, or 100/200 years from now, and actually I think this is JKR's point, but even if it isn't, it's still pathetic that people feel the need to feed into this fictional(!!) cycle. Bleh.

Also, as far as the Buckbeak scene, you could also make the argument that Draco was being equally stupid (in a different way). If you wanted. Reckless, anyway. Though I'll give you Grawp or whatever his name is, but I actually 'got' that and would've done the same, whatever that says about me.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah! I think now I'm getting it. Because I was thinking, "Is this me or not?" Heh. I mean...because you mentioned the "good guys are evil too," and that's kind of the sort of thing I'm always noticing in canon. Though for me it's not that they're evil or that they need to be punished but that it seems like the bad guys are just so taken care of at this point the more interesting story is in where this fight will take the good guys. So, like, I did when I read see potential evil versions of many characters--but not in a way that was like, "They must be punished!" more like..."they must learn this or they will be unhappy and in trouble..."

For me that's probably where the Slytherins etc. come in, because I can just see them as angry, stupid, emotional kids who aren't paying attention to what they're doing either, so I don't know if I'd be able to buy any other explanation of them (like that they are teh evol and must be punished!). But at the same time that's what the other kids are too. So it creeps me out when people scramble on either side and seem to take exactly what's *wrong* with their thought processes and celebrate that.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, ideas in general don't offend me-- at least, a lot of it depends on the use they're put to. That's exactly it-- it creeps me out when people get all rabid & vengeful and extremist and pick sides and draw lines in the sand and so on. I mean, I realize it's not just fandom, it's typical human behavior, but it really annoys me more when they're acting like it's lit-crit and there are all these politics involved. Fictional politics, even. How wrong is that?

I just feel like... it's a form of separatism, which again wouldn't be -as- offensive to me if it wasn't coupled with mockery of the 'other kind'. And I suppose 'fan' stands for fanatic, but... this whole behavior pattern seems so self-destructive and alienating and mostly it just freaks me out and makes me want to just-- not be a part of this community, I guess.

edited for diplomacy

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Dudette, you must totally give me a link to the Hagrid bashing now.

I said that about Slytherin because I thought it was funny. :D You are easy to poke. However, I think the mistake people pretty much commit is to confuse the two levels. That the Slytherins are the meta victims doesn't mean they are victims in canon. And the fact that, say, JKR has a crush on Spike Sirius doesn't mean he isn't a victim in life.

And I am annoyed as hell at self-righteous attitudes, too. Wtf means Sirius deserves to die because he was an asshole when he was a boy? Gee, then what are you going to do with Snape, who was a terrorist? Oh, no, wait... (Of course, this happens with Snape regularly too.)

AHAHA, ACTUALLY. I WANT TO POST AN ESSAY OVER HOW MUCH NEVILLE TYPES OPPRESSED ME IN MY YOUTH.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah I'm so tempted to tell you I was Neville-like in my youth just to see how you'd take it, but I don't think I was. Was and am shy & antisocial, but then we've no evidence Neville is either, actually. In fact I think I was usually lazy 'cause things came too easily to me, so I'm not much with the Nevilleness. Actually those people who aren't as good as me? Meh. Must oppress :D :D :D

I -am- easy to poke >:D *coughs* I shouldn't say that with a big grin, should I???
Mostly, I don't see the meta/canon distinction made, man. MEH, I say. MEH.

Hagrid mess here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/iibnf/876255.html), btw. Ph34r my amazing memory (and google searching)skillz :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahhh no, that's the Hagrid defense :(( I don't remember where I'm getting all this from. Have no right to be cocky, for my memory is as swiss cheese :/ Although there is some anti-Hagrid sentiment among the comments there, really not a lot. Still uh... she must be responding to something...?? Dunno :/ There was more though.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Ahaha, I do remember the Hagrid "attacks" then, and I think I was part of it. :P Perspective thing says that I was pretty damn pissed at people trying to guilt-trip me by assuming I disliked him (I didn't even -.- I just didn't like him) because he was fat. Right. And I think I'll go to the D_S now to search for it.

Nooo. Neville-types (anyway this is supposed to be kind of humorous because people aren't stereotypes and yet other people insist they are - and they are bad, of course) aren't social but they'd love to, know what I mean? Also, not very smart. But they were so good! And oppressed by the mean pretty girls.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Here you go."> (http://www.livejournal.com/users/kelly_holden/58450.html)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

If you like Slytherins, obviously it means you HATE Gryffindors and think they're worthless losers, because clearly the world is made up of polarities and you must take sides and MOCK THE ENEMY.

I don't want to anger or upset you, but to me, that's the attitude presented in the books first, before fandom even occured...

I mean, fandom is dominant here, obviously, since we're in it, but I'm not seeing the hating in saying 'All characters have flaws and good points.' There's no need for people to say for example 'Hagrid cares about people and animals and has benign motivations' or 'Draco has flaws that equal Harry's/Ron's/Insert Gryff here, Slytherin house has flaws to equal Gryffindor house' because those sides of their characters are already being presented in the text. You can't fail to notice that Hagrid adores Harry, for example; or that Harry's pettiness is eclipsed by Draco's.
So fandom focusses on Hagrid's flaws or Draco/Snape/Insert Baddie here's good qualities because these sides to their characters' aren't being presented in canon.
Just my .02 cents.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I suppose it's like this: I appreciate (and I think, do) explore things that aren't touched upon in canon, but feel it's only really relevant when you put it in specific context of canon discussion without assuming that everyone agrees on what, exactly, canon -says-, which often they don't. Also, my major beef is with people whose 'canon logic' and understanding are majorly clouded by obvious bias-- and any unbalanced view is automatically biased. What bugs me is egregious logic errors more than any particular pov anyone wants to take-- I don't really care-- I'll just call them stupid and narrow-minded and move on, but I find really messed-up reasoning to be offensive for some reason. It's an issue.

More than anything, I feel that this highlighting of the Slytherins (or other issues, more narrowly focused on particular characters) leads a lot of the people to make fun of and mock and ridicule and refuse to listen to opposing povs. They over-identify with their 'pet constituency' as if this is real-life politics or something rather than, you know, another piece of fiction like any other, and then go on to continuously mock whoever disagrees. That... that just really pisses me off.

[amber-the-fool.livejournal.com]

"In fandom, nothing is ever simple, it seems, past the 'omg, SQUEE' stage. *sigh* Such is life. Maybe I should take another break."

hehe. true.

"I do -wish- to see Ron/Hermione"

and here i was thinking i was the only one. yay!

amber x

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

For me there's two things...there's a certain kind of negativity that yeah, anybody can be tempted by when we're frustrated. I mean, if something really bothers me about something sure I like to find other people who feel the same way. But then there's the kind that just takes over everything, where everything must be assumed to suck, and suck because it can't ever do anything but suck, you know?

Then there's just the issue of accuracy, which I feel like these discussions really run roughshod over. I mean, I'm not particularly fond of Hagrid but I can see good things in him. Most of the things in the book are more, imo, about different types clashing in different ways rather than just one person being good and persecuted for no reason by the bad guy. And it does get tiring hearing somebody refuse to actually look at the clues we get to what's going on (because sometimes that's all we get are clues) and all the feelings involved because they've already got everything all figured out based on one thing. Like, with somebody like Sirius I know the impressions I got of his life from OotP, and it was sort of complicated. But all I can do is say, "See, this line here suggested this to me, and this line here made me think this..." but other people are like so ready to argue about exactly what the first 20 years of his life were like without us ever seeing a second of it. And of course it's always completely one-sided--either it was a living hell or he was a living hell and that's it. That's what drives me crazy, because even if the person is on my side in a general way, the argument just hurts the premise anyway.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, exactly! :D :D That whole blanket suckage has been all but asphyxiating my enthusiasm lately. Coupled with the fact that most of my favorite authors aren't writing H/D anymore, I feel kind of 'meh'. Before, the kerfuffles were just the BNF-type wanking, but now it seems like a lot of the meta is wanky too, the more lj fandom grows....

Yeah, and the accuracy issue is what drives me to the 'not Earth logic' frustration, 'cause now everyone and their brother has input, and a lot of times it's emotional-propaganda type input, and they don't even seem to have the basic self-awareness to realize that. The Sirius-Snape debates recently just kind of put the nail in the coffin, I thought. Really kind of pathetic. And just the feeling that most of the fandom hated OoTP and OoTP!Sirius and OoTP!Harry just upsets me on a consistent basis too, and makes me feel like we're not reading the same books at all, so what's the point...

I know! It's just... so much propaganda and pushing-your-own-agenda and jumping to conclusions and it seems like the meta aspect of fandom has gotten as loud and clamorous as the squeeing slash fangirls on ff.net sometimes. Heh. Most people seem to have a certain... uh... 'side' or angle they're pushing and they're -always- going to be pushing that same angle. It's like... so intellectually lazy and dishonest and just painful to watch a lot of times, especially when one is discussing such complex characters as Sirius....

And yeah, exactly-- I don't even -want- to agree with people who're using certain ideas to hammer home a whole dogmatic canon-reading they're using as some sort of Rosetta stone for everything. One size fits all! Wah. Although probably... it was probably only a matter of time before HP meta became wanky too, all things considered :/