~~ the quest for kinkless reading continues.

[reenka]

I guess I mostly want to post about whether one can dislike slash & not be homophobic.

I mean, I would automatically say one is pretty much homophobic to some degree if one -hates- and refuses to give slash (or gay-themed literature or movies) a chance. But in the case of just preferring het or gen-type fic, it's different, slash being a genre of romance. People generally read romance for pleasure-- unlike say, "general" fiction or nonfiction. They read it to relax and enjoy themselves, and if they don't identify with the emotions of the characters involved, then what would be the (emotional) draw?

As a 'serious writer', one of my main goals is to write outside my kinks (or pleasure-zones), because I think that's essential to improving one's craft, and also unsticking one's brain from a rut. But as a 'serious reader', I can't be bothered to ignore my kinks outside of class. And a reader's sexual orientation is just one big kink area, isn't it?

I have a straight, non-fandom guy friend who often reads my H/D fic and even enjoys it, so I know he doesn't have a problem with The Gay. He just doesn't like the sexy-yeay aspect of things. At all. And that really kind of made me think-- how many slash readers/writers would stop reading if slashfic no longer felt -good-?

I think the difference between proclaiming the 'yuck' reaction is homophobic & conscious or understandable and unconscious (in a straight guy or a non-kinky girl) is the difference between a higher-brained and an instinctual (pleasure-based) response. The higher brain says "whoa! morally suspect content!" whereas it's the inarguable Id that proclaims "omg hot!!1" or "omg, NOT!". *sigh* It also seems important that while there are -some- male slashers, nearly 100% are gay (thus begging the question of whether they're being as limited as the straight guys who'd rather stick to het).

This needs more thought on my part, clearly.
~~

Also... does loving/writing/reading H/D fics mean you're one of the inchoate group of H/D shippers? Does that have to necessarily mean you're all into the same thing, that you truly have something in common? (...No.)

It's just-- liking "all versions" of a pairing doesn't make sense to me.


Everyone has such a different view on Draco, it seems, and that really impacts my idea of whether or not he "should" be with Harry. That's really at the heart of it. I mean, it really gets confusing when one can't quite say either canon!Draco (as is) -or- ice-prince-fanon!Draco "should" be with Harry. I mean, that just leaves... "my" Draco and canonish!Harry who're MFEO. Canon!Draco is kinda... 'close but no cigar' at this point; I feel like most of the people (whose H/D I love) who write canonish!Draco with Harry do it either by using pre-OoTP Harry, lightening both of them up, or by writing it as a really messed up & abusive pairing.

Eh. Sometimes I do want Harry to love canon!Draco, but. Firstly, Harry's love would -change- Draco, and secondly, Harry being Harry, he'd still need a reason to. But, this makes for good 'boys are silly' fic, as long as you don't get too serious. While canon!Draco's being a dork, using him in fic makes for nice dorky!fluff. Secondly, it avoids using fanon!Draco, who is Teh Eval.

Gar. My hate-on for sexy-cool!Draco doesn't even have to do with canon. I just think he's sekritly evil. Why the bloody hell does he need Harry? He's already perfect! Look at him! He's blondest and prettiest and coolest and.. he doesn't even -angst-! He's Legolas without the ears! Perfection? Is dumb. :D

And "OTP" is such a meta concept that sometimes it hurts my brain, I think (and this is the person who 'ships' earth/sky and black/white and stuff like that). The problem is that Harry&Draco have become too real to me, maybe. And also, too many people these days seem to write H/D that I find heavily not to my taste, somehow. Like my perception of them has become so fine-tuned, any discordant note twangs like a bitch. Even so, I wouldn't rather read well-written H/Hr instead; then again, this might explain my recent sabbatical from fandom.

It's like... I'm okay with being "in" the "HP fandom" because that's such a diffuse, obviously multifaceted thing, but I feel that being labeled an "H/D shipper" implies things about me I may or may not want to represent. I mean, if you picked certain characteristics or aspects or portrayals of the pairing, I can honestly say "I'm emphatically not an H/D shipper". In fact, I have more disagreements with other H/D-shipping people than I do with people who ship other pairings, just 'cause I -care- more about my thoughts on H/D to start with.

I think shippiness is messed up in general. Why each individual "sees" two people as 'good together' is (should be?) idiosyncratic, isn't it? I mean, two fifteen/sixteen year-old boys who can't stand each other's guts are -not- going to have a healthy, balanced relationship any way you look at it. One can only hope they grow up together & don't drive each other utterly mad (or dead) along the way :>

Maybe it's just that seeing this H/Hr shippy rant reminds me of everything that's wrong with shippiness and blatant character favoritism. It's like, oh, look how compatible & good together & healthy H/Hr is! They're such wonderful miniature adults from age 12 on or whatever. Why does that poor idiot, Ron, have to ruin everything?!?

I don't think H&D are "good together" (without a lot of doing), yet I ship 'em like a mofo. I think this makes me a freak :>

I mean, I do indulge in rather blatant Harry favoritism myself, but the idea of using the love of one character/pairing to bring down another, or that defining oneself as -pro- something has to imply you're -anti- something else... that just really bothers me. I love Ron, you know, and I love the relationship between Harry & Ron, but I would never say it's more important to Harry than his relationship with Hermione. He loves (and needs) them both, dude. Draco, though-- my Draco-- is just a dream; or possibly, canon!Draco's nightmare.

I probably I ship Harry and Draco because clearly I adore them, and because they represent all sorts of things about the world and the universe and how I want to perceive love and what I hope can be true about people. I want them to be together because I want to believe the best of people and because I think they can (one day!) be so brilliant together and because they need each other in a whole 'nother way. In the way you need your shadow, and in the way you need your light, and in a way you need to believe in the impossible and in free will and in our own ability to change. There is so much potential there-- and H/D can just explode with it (though it doesn't a lot of the time, not in practice). In practice, very very few H/D writers have really made it -work- for me, and of course those that have, possess my undying love.

But I am in love with them and I will stay in love with them and I need and want them to stay in love with each other, but I still dislike reducing all this passion to the confines of "shipping" and shippiness. To me, it's a way of thinking, of seeing love-- of believing things about the world in general.

I love Aja's use of the world "allegorical" in the post above-- because that's what H/D is to me, as real as both Harry & Draco have become-- an allegory. Both real & allegorical, yes, exactly.

What I'm saying is-- there is all this love in me for my H/D, and Aja's, and Ivy's, and Maya's & Aspen's, and Miss Breed's & Silvia's & Trin's & Audrey's & Thess' & Rhysenn's & Antenora's-- and it's all so individual, so particular, even as it coalesces in my mind into a single feeling from the multiple sources. It's just-- purity of precise meaning remains though the source is mixed. I feel their love and I feel mine, and it's always unique to me, always reborn with every good (there's me being particular again) fic anyone writes.

I'm now wondering whether I'm an OTP writer, and I think I am, because Harry & Draco are always "It" for me. What I always think about, what I care about, what I'm -here- for. Nothing else matters, yes, but other things interest me. I like writing against kink, I like challenging myself, I love knowing I'm growing as a writer. I'll leave fandom for good if I ever tire of H/D, yes, but it's not because H/D is "my ship". They're not -mine-; I'm theirs. They possess me. I have interests outside them, I try to escape them even, but their contradictory, insane relationship possesses me because it's my Story.

It is the story of Love and magic and the need to always feel even when your heart is breaking in two inside you. It is a (meta-)story of love & hate & letting go & growing up & accepting things & learning what's worth fighting for. They are my avatars; they are my starting points; they aren't a sure thing to me because they are always fighting to be.

My Harry&Draco are always a step away from completion; always on the brink of disaster & ruin & heartbreak. Sometimes they snatch happiness from the jaws of hatred, but most times they just try to hurt each other and doubt themselves and each other. My H/D is never comfortable or easy or "meant to be"-- their battle for themselves is always just beginning, but they never stop. They can't stop. They can't let go. They are bound; in orbit; they are the One which is Two. They're not exactly heavily rooted in 'reality'.

Anyway... I'm well aware that the ideals I'm imbuing the pairing with aren't always there, in every H/D fic, to say the least-- that is partly why I find so many H/D fics to be painfully crap, my standards being sky-high. This is also a part of the reason I'm semi-open to other fandoms-- in the end, this type of meta-emotional landscape is transferrable to other pairings, if you write them right. (That is to say, I can "get" a similar vibe from other pairings, it's just that I don't have the pre-existing emotional investment to make it as powerful for me). H/D isn't unique in its suitability to carry this particular sort of context-- it's just rather rare.

I'd insist that what's important to me isn't That Pairing, but rather a way of -perceiving- That Pairing. Too many fics/writers see H/D (and the two characters individually) in a way I can't stand for me to feel comfortable. Ice-prince!Draco alone would put me off more than half the H/D fic out there (well, the ones that don't have porn to distract me with). How can I say I support these visions and call them "mine" by proxy?

This whole rambling quibble is a product of obsession, of course. I'm not even saying I ship H/D "better" or "truer" or "more intensely" than the rest-- I'm just saying I probably see them differently than most; just as I fit in neither with the canon!Draco-fanciers nor with the fanon!Draco-fanciers. (Which is to say, I like canon!Draco, redeemed from his future and made slightly less pathetic). Harry&Draco are not necessarily the same people to me as to most of the fandom.

As to ice-prince!Draco being coupled with nice-and-heroic!Harry? Sometimes I want to throw up, but mostly I just studiously don't care. Unless it's brilliantly written, of course, then all bets are off. I do mindlessly enjoy well-written porn (whether it's emotionally or physically based), but when I fall in love, I fall in love with an H/D writer's singular vision, and with these boys, all over again, every time.
~~

Generally, what I really care about is a good story rather than a shippy or a slashy story, even though those things draw me in initially. It's rather difficult to overcome some ridiculous characterization to write a brilliantly moving tale, but that's only because usually the stuff that's "OOC" makes no sense anyway. Usually it's just -stupid- or uninspired, moreso than it's anti-canon, as far as I can tell. But I'm cranky that way.

Comments

[luciusmalfoy.livejournal.com]

i don't like slash, but i don't think i'm homophobic... really. -.-

slash is just something like i'm not that interested in reading, it's not that it doesn't relate to me but it's just... eh. i dunno. i have enough darn gay in my life & i don't need to read about it.

errghh the gay

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehehe well, I can't say that wasn't um... a bit confusing, but... yeah, I believe one can just be "not into it" even if one dabbles in it or even reads/writes it, just because if it's not a kink of yours then it's always not as fun as something that -is- one. Or something.

Though I do have het in my life & don't mind reading about it, I've heard that argument-type before. 'Course, some people read about things -because- they're "in their life"-- that whole comfort-zone thing.

Depends what you're reading stuff "for", I think :>

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

I don't really have anything to add to this--in fact I disagree on some points, but not enough to quibble with the overall spirit of your post. I just want to clarify that when I said, in my post, "I love knowing that I can always count on to write H/D. They are sure things, in a way, because I know that regardless of how we write our OTP, we all love it..." I wasn't referring to the pairing itself as a sure thing--but to the writers who keep coming back and exploring it again and again.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh, okay. And man, if I did say something stupid, I can always count on the fact that it was like, 5am, and my mind was sort switching off big-time :D
Also, your icon reminds me how I love movie!Trelawney~:)
And I suppose I am a sure thing, at that, though about 75% of my favorite H/D writers are halfway or more than halfway out of the fandom now. Well, like, you're the big exception >:D

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

stuck at the doctors, i read an enormous post i had printed out. or two. one was about nott vs. draco, the other about 5-qu-about-hp-fanfics. and they all seemed to say again and again how badly draco was written.
now you say you don't read ljs at all? i found it interesting that opinions there could clash because it is possible to read only one kind of fic while the next person never saw any of that kind. i just made up my mind to try to get a more canon-draco into a fic, if it killed me. just as snape, he is hysteric. he is not cool. he is a good mimic, but loses nerve easily and can never, ever keep his mouth shut.
why do i write that? *g* coz this time i lost the thread of what you actually wanted to say up there. although i know from past posts what you mean. sort of?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Er... my overall point was that I don't know if I "ship" H/D if that means I have to ship them in every H/D fic that exists. Um, I dunno, maybe I totally failed to communicate that, but that was the general drift. Also, some people's ideas of Harry & Draco really bother me because they don't seem like they're -Harry- & -Draco-, so I can't ship that.

I used not to read lj (I think I'd said that for months now), but I'm sorta back now. I have rather precise ideas of what makes a good story, but I also think I'm semi-objective here 'cause I'm willing to let go of my shipping kink to just see whether the writer has made it work. I don't really care if Draco's characterized outside canon as long as it -makes sense- within the story. And usually it doesn't.

I was saying that IC-ness isn't as important to me as good writing that convinces me of what it's trying to portray. Most people are way more easily convinced than me, even if it's because they know what they want is "canon"-like Draco, for instance, whereas I'm -willing- to accept other, more loose characterizations. Eh. I think more rambling doesn't help ^^;

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

hehe, no, it did. i thought that's what you said, but in my rambling i had tried to say that there are lots of people who feel like you. and i agree what you just said.

i suppose it was caused by the h/d-master list? it's a starting point though, just as anthologies are. plus, i found my first fluffy h/d fic, had not believed there were a lot, but then i never went looking. the lovey-dovey is too much.

but i also rather read a fic than a pairing. and so far i avoided shipping, i think, even though i have my preferred pairings. as the beautiful south sang "i'll sail this ship alone" if needs be ;P

sorry for being really rambling yet again.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know...liking or not liking slash is an interesting thing. Because I've liked het pairings too, though none in HP. So part of me wonders why one would not like something because the romance was between two guys. The obvious reason is that you think two guys is icky, but I don't think it has to be that.

Slash has generally been described as being for and by (and maybe even about) women and I think it basically is. I started slashing, really, when I was probably as young as 5 or 6 when I was all into Batman and Robin and Robin getting hurt and Batman coming with the comfort! I have just always loved male/male relationships and friendships. But I think that also probably meant that I, for whatever reason, naturally liked to project into male characters. More than female ones, I think, because I rarely project myself into those. So for me it's natural for me to like my romance "as a boy." (In fact, I'm not even sure if, when I read het, I "am" the boy or the girl in my head--I've always thought I was the girl, but who knows? Maybe I flip back and forth?)

I think with most guys, though not all, the whole romance story thing isn't something they do anyway. They'd sort of rather just focus on the girl in a porno and whoever the guy is is sort of them. So if you hand them slash to them it's about two guys having sex and that might not be something they're really interested in, or it may be unpleasant to think about doing it themselves, even if they're not homophobic. But maybe for some reason it's not so much that, "Eww! You're writing two boys doing it!" as it is, "Why would I want Harry to do it with somebody who wasn't me?"

I feel like that's what happens with a lot of people who say they start off thinking slash is bad and then they read it and like it. I think what they might be learning is that oh wait, I can be a boy character too, really. I'm not cut out after all!

Just something I was thinking about...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, you've liked het too but you're not a guy, right? You're (I think?) a heterosexual female (or at least one part of that's true), plus het's the "norm" and pretty much everyone has to learn to accept it to live a relatively stress-free life. Or something. I guess I didn't mention that, but I was thinking it! :> I mean, guys tend to like femmeslash, right... and girls tend -not- to like femmeslash, not so much. Damn, should've thought more about that, too. *siiigh* Anyway, it seems as if there's a disconnect comfort-level thing going on, where we can be comfortable with things that don't necessarily touch our identity if they also somehow manage to get at some emotional/physical attraction (kink). Mer.

I mean, the guy friend in question (who doesn't enjoy slashiness) easily identifies with girl characters, and even likes girls' minds and viewpoints more than boys', I think. I actually don't think it's so unusual, 'cause the semi-alien can often actually be more inviting 'cause we can insert ourselves easier into the unknown (sometimes). I mean, makes sense to me. Personally, I've always identified with girls because I've felt like I knew virtually -nothing- about boyness even with all the boy-centric stuff I read. It still takes me by surprise that apparently, all that early exposure paid off and I do actually, in fact, kinda 'get' boys :>

You're right that they don't tend to "do" the romance-story thing (though the guy above likes psychological studies, heh). So I suppose their femmeslash/het is more physical and/or plot-oriented. Heheh this reminds me of just how much I hate "girlie" romance H/D fics where they talk about their feelings & bond & get to know each other & have lots of "meaningful sex". OMG KILL ME NOW!!1 >:O (Yeah... me... Olivia Lupin&co...... issues.)

"Why would I want Harry to do it with somebody who wasn't me?"
totally read as if the guy in question is repressing(?) gay urges, there :D :D

I like the idea (in girls who learn to like slash) that they can be boy characters too :D :D It's inspiring! If only so much of it wasn't feminized & such. I think it's also that girls are writing about boys in a way -girls- can understand, so maybe we're explaining boys to ourselves, as well as ourselves to ourselves in the process :D :D That's what I think of my fics, maybe~:)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

urgh, what's with the new comment format? i hate it.

The question about homophobia puzzles me because it doesn't seem to take into account internalised homophobia. I mean, we've all been grown with it, haven't we? Some of us maybe come from very liberal (and for the time) very progressive environment, but even with my parents being two open-minded people, the culture I've been immersed in since I was born was a mainly homophobic one. I freed myself of these prejudices while I was growing, but I had to 1)recognize their existence them and 2) recognize their quality of prejudices rather than moral principles. I think years ago the issue with racism was much the same. It's not so much an individual problem but rather a cultural one.

So what I mean is - when someone singles out "slash fic" as something less universally valid (not talkin about kink here, talking about value judgment on writing) then it's difficult for me not to connect it to homophobia - internalised homophobia. Because the difference between slash and het is just that, that slash has homosexual relationships. And what could people be rejecting if not that? And from the perspective of "a valid theme to write about" (or rather = "characters human enough to write about") declaring homosexual romance inferior sounds much the same as declaring homosexual people as different thus inferior from the self, not human enough.

And even while the person operating this choice could refuse to see him/herself as prejudiced, because she doesn't have "in RL" issues with homosexuality/has gay friends, this doesn't mean her perception of homosexuality is not a perception that looks down at it basedly on deeply-ingrained norms due to sheer tradition. Nobody is yelling at them for being actively discriminating - because it's pretty non self-aware, so there could very well not be a malicious intent. But, nontheless, the discrimination occurs because of ignorance, and if people are confronted about it and this pushes them to question their own value system, then it doesn't look like anything bad from where I am standing.

Replying to the H/D issues in another post...

Re: Taste and Style

[franzeska]

Disliking slash would be homophobic if slash were synonymous with homosexuals, but it's not and never was. I think it's helpful to look at slash as a literary movement. It has certain common stylistic features. Anyone who disagrees should go read some typical gay porn and see if they can't spot the stylistic differences. Just as many slashers detest gay male porn*, other people may dislike slash on grounds of taste that have nothing whatsoever to do with the sex of the romantic leads.

I think it's also important to distinguish between being uncomfortable, disgusted or frightened and not being interested. If someone doesn't like slash because, "Aaaah! Gay!", then I start to wonder if homophobia is at the bottom of it. If they don't like slash because "Ho hum. *yawn*", then I tend to assume it has to do with some other aspect of slash.

I have a bi male friend who dislikes slash because he finds it alienating. He says most of it seems to exoticize gay men. Now, if its authors and projected audience don't mind, then more power to them. I think the fact that more than one form of m/m writing occurs in our society and the fact that those different forms have audiences with relatively little overlap points to a more complex explanation than "hates slash = homophobic" even once we figure in internalized homophobia.

Personally, I tend to dislike a lot of femslash because it sounds like porno lesbians going at it. "Oh, Bambi, you are so soft and floral scented! You make my Gooshy Lust Cavern quiver in a tender and feminine way!" I read a good bit of stuff like that featuring Sailor Moon characters. I know it's not all like that, but I generally steer clear now. I do read professional lesbian fiction of various sorts and like it just fine.





*When I speak of "gay porn" here, I mean written pornography that is ostensibly produced by and for gay men. It's the sort of thing often found in the m/m section of nifty.org and in the gay section at Border's Books.

Re: Taste and Style

[malafede.livejournal.com]

First things firts: your icon is a thing of beauty. (And Sirius is one of my favourite characters. But. Yeah.)

I think it's helpful to look at slash as a literary movement.

Oh! Yes, it was silly of me to discount the aesthetical problems. You're right about it. I surely understand disliking "slash" for its stylistical conventions, or for its political stance on homosexuality. I sort of thought, people who do have objection to slash that are clearly unrelated to its content per se - they aren't the ones we're talking about.

I didn't want to generalise - I realise I didn't disclaim myself very well - I also am not talking about people who're simply saying, "Well, it's not my cuppa, I don't get off on it so I don't read it, but it's just as valid as any other fanfic." I was talking about people who do single it out as invalid a priori, people who say it's out of character just because, people who say it's tasteless, people who say it creeps them. I mean, even if someone isn't bashing it actively, but admits it weirds them - isn't that homophobic? If it's clear what's weirding them is the homosexual content?

I'm not saying everybody should read it, everybody should love it, no. I have plenty of things I don't read, I am not a huge het consumer for example, although I do enjoy some pairings. It's just, I admit it's not my thing - I don't declare het to be generally inferior.

And! Was yuri that bad in the Sailor Moon fandom? I never knew. (I always liked Minako/Rei, though.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, in this case I wasn't talking about people singling out slash and saying it's somehow less valid than whatever else-- that seems more straightforward. I meant someone who doesn't have "issues" with it and can read it, but would never really -enjoy- it, really, past a certain level. Enjoyment (as I said somewhere) is more Id than the Superego-type judgement of "this is Wrong and Bad". Judgement inherent always implies prejudice to me, anyway, but then I'm sensitive :>

[flimpy.livejournal.com]

liking "all versions" of a pairing doesn't make sense to me.

Heh. I do have a specific idea of what H/D means to me, and I'll defend it to the death, but I also love all the ways it can be shipped... fluff, angst, drama, dark, humor, vanilla, kink. I would say that I'm shameless, except I honestly don't think I am. I just like variety, man. ^_~ I love that I can appreciate nopejr's detached yet powerful style and wayfairer's impassioned attitude as well.

Like you've said, I just want H/D to make sense within the context of the story - and ultimately, good storytelling is what it's all about.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Nono, see, by "version" I didn't mean genre, I meant specific characterization issues. Sometimes (oftentimes) the Harry & Draco in a fic totally don't seem -real- to me; it's like, they're totally different people, y'know? And then shipping them seems perfunctory, almost-- like, I always want a -reason-, an inspiration-- I don't want to believe in something because that's just what I -do-, and it's automatic. I want the fic to create its own meaning even as it asks me to suspend my disbelief or whatever.

That said, I'm a total sucker for the lowest grade H/D smut a lot of times, but I don't really ship them there so much as use them/the fic without remorse. I don't regard it as a -story-, really.

What I'm saying is, a lot of people's H/D doesn't make sense to me within their story. Maybe I've become jaded, but duuuude-- I've read a zillion and one H/D fics by now, I have a right, heheh. It's just so important to me that I want to see it being -right-. I don't want to compromise (even though I do). I don't want to desperately pretend these are those two characters, even if they act nothing like them.

I would still say that no one has as of yet written entirely believable H/D (character development-wise, generally halfway throug the fic it degenerates into either uber-angst or lovey-dovey-porn or formulaic bodice-ripper romance or whatever), so I mean... I'm not that strict. Anyway, it's not about style and more about characterization-- like the fact that 95% of the Harry in slash is beyond OOC and let's not even get into fanon!Draco :> :> Even so, I adore a lot of fics with these flaws. I'm just... more ornery & hard to please these days~:)

[flimpy.livejournal.com]

Yes... However, it would seem that certain genres limit themselves to certain characterizations. For example - as much as I love it, can H/D fluff really be truly believable? Which is why I hold different expectations walking into an established!H/D story as opposed to a 6th Year Angstfest.

I would still say that no one has as of yet written entirely believable H/D

I've read H/D that was believable *within context*, but so far no one has written them the way *I* see them. (though weatherby comes pre-ttee damn close) This is why it's beyond frustrating that I can't write... I mean, I suppose I could take an honest whack at it but I absolutely fear the sp00ge that would result, and I love my flist too much to inflict that upon them. Heh. And yeah, I can draw them or whatever but the actual medium is so tough to deal with. It's as if I cannot compromise what I see in my head and what comes out of my pencil at all. Authors, on the other hand, have the luxury of words, words, words. Bucketfuls of words, words to scoop up in one's hand and watch them spill letter by letter, and WAHH I CAN'T DO THAT. Man, if you had any idea how jealous I am of you among others because YOU can shape them into how you want them to be.



That's also why I rarely read novel-length fics anymore because, as you've suggested, something always goes wrong with characterization. I love drabbles and short-to-medium length one-shots because the good ones are exactly how I like my fic - tight, cohesive and if the author bothers, even symbolic. I suppose that's where you and I differ? ^_^; I'm completely intrigued by the psychology of H/D, and the messy triangular-ness (:-?) of the id, ego and superego. Well, yes, I love the emotional aspect of the pairing and I suppose ultimately that the process of the id vs. superego is dealt with emotionally. I just find myself wanting it to be balanced by... I dunno. *Something*?

Heh, I'm being so vague, sorry. I should hit 'post' before I start rambling off topic even more.

[flimpy.livejournal.com]

I suppose that's where you and I differ?

Er, I should clarify that basically, I do believe in a similar H/D as you do - raw, paradoxical and messy and stuff :) - just more in the...psychological way, I guess. But I'm easily swayed by the writing style as much as (or sometimes, even more so) than characterization. Heh, I'm a sucka for pretty sentences. I can easily be put off by an excellently characterized story if the writing doesn't 'do it' for me.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Me too-- I'm a style hor. You should see my earlier attempts at H/D. It was all pretty-this and pretty-that and a metaphor here and there and everywhere. I mean, I love Amalin's and Penguin's and Shinigami Forever's and Penelope's and SkySorceress' and Katie Bec's and Ivy's H/D writing and all because of the style. Most people's style leaves something to be desired also :> :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean... while I -wish- someone wrote them the way I see them (I might be getting there... one day), mostly I'd settle for fully-believable-within-context. And I totally dig what you're saying about the difficulty of longfics-- because yes, the characterizations so often deteriorate, but I still long for a successful longfic 'cause it's like... more is better and also I -want- the backstory & plot because that makes the resolution much more intense and satisfying.

I myself have written one-shots because they're easier to write and sustain, but that was just because I hadn't been pushing myself, really. I do love short stories, but you can't do everything I'd like to do with them :> H&D lend themselves to big stories, with lots of set-up (to make it believable) and lots of pre-slash and such. Mmm, pre-slash :D

I find the idea of genre influencing characterization really interesting, but I do think a lot of humorous (fluffy?) H/D has been believable-- in fact, more believable than drama, which works harder but doesn't always achieve. Augustus, Trin, Miss Breed & Silvia all write rather believable H/D, all humorous/fluffy. You don't address the deeper issues there, sure, but at least there's a definite lack of melodrama and lovey-doveyness (in a certain kind of fluff, anyway). I think there's H/D-type fluff where there's more snark & kissing & more snark, y'know. Heh. I don't mean Olivia Lupin-style fluff, which drives me up the wall.

I am flexible, believe me (most people who're canon-whores of whatever always tell me my recs are way more broad-based than they'd ever go for), it's just that I don't want the story to feel forced, and a lot of them do. Even in context. It's a delicate thing, 'cause each reader provides varying amounts of "help" (suspension of disbelief) to make a story work; I think my helpfulness depends on the skill of the writer, generally :>

I know what you mean about the triangulation of the Id, Ego & Superego (that's what attracts me too-- the whole struggle of it), and of course it's dealt with emotionally, which is why fanon!Draco with his rationalisms and cool-as-cucumberness seems to completely frustrate this set-up. It's like, I just want it to feel emotionally valid-- I want that struggle to remain, rather than have things fall into boxes. I think it's just that you take certain things for granted & avoid or accept, whereas I -know- it's true but I still rail against it :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

(I've deleted my comment because I've realised that the bold fonts made me look like a raving fundie.)

So, I've thought about this H/D thing. It boiled down to three issues: kink, good writing and good characterizations.

Kink. Now the beautiful thing with kink is that you don't explain it, it's very much like pavlovian dogs. You just have it. It makes you happy. So H/D, no matter how much bad written, no much the seriously weird characterizations, will make people happy just by virtue of having one blond guy called Draco with a vaguely hostile (sometimes not even that) attitude and one dark haired guy who is a hero. And they fall in love. And their love achieves world peace. I mean, there's nothing wrong with this. There could be so many reasons for people to have this kink (like I have a sub Draco kink, and I get off on real crap in its name): it could be philosophical, it could be allegorical, it could both.

I think this is why many really really bad stuff is not only being read, but also enjoyed and praised to the sky - and the only problems I have with this are of intellectual honesty, ie: don't call your kink good writing.

Also my squick is many of these people's kink and this makes me bitter. But that's my problem.

Good writing and good characterization get confused a lot too. For example, I don't think some of the better writers out there have the best characterizations. Ivy Blossom, who writes beautifully, isn't as close as JKR's universe like, for example, Breed. But Ivy Blossom's psychological realism, her insight into humanity (even as illustrated by different manifestations of humanity than I see in H&D), is good, and makes the reading enjoyable nontheless.

I have my H&D, and I think they're close to canon - or, they're my interpretation of canon, that is admittedly subjective, but that's as honest I can get without renouncing to my own individuality (ahaha, the PRETENTION!). And I am attached to it; I can read about characterizations that stray from it (like Ivy Blossom's) but it doesn't touch the same emotional chords Breed touchs in me. It's good writing - but it's not the Harry and Draco I believe in.

Then there's things that don't have anything even remotedly resembling Harry and Draco how I read them in canon (and actually, I am talking about a objective standard here because I do think that perfect hottie Draco is pure fanon) and couple it with the bad writing (idealised writing, super-human characterizations, trite plots, trite emotional manipulations, and I could go on.) These fics are written by people that are clearly getting a happy out of it, and their readers too, and they have all the right to it - real people's happy is more important than fictional one.

But it worries me that this vision is so popular, if not only because it feeds the fanon bleed, this wide-spread idea that Casanova Draco is textual.

Oh, and the shippy rant. So many levels of wrong. It's not the healthy bond that makes the romance - it's the chemistry. Even it was true that Hermione and Harry are too-cool-for-school and Ron is just a simpleton, thing is, the chemistry is still between Hermione and Ron. And, to clarify: I don't ship them.

And dude, this is why I hate heroes sometimes. The meta-hate, it is my precious.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

the only problems I have with this are of intellectual honesty, ie: don't call your kink good writing.
Most definitely-- intellectual honesty, I feel there should be more of-- buuuut, I think a number of people aren't "in" fandom for the intellectual aspect at all, and just want to drool at the pretty. The funny thing is, I just want to drool at the pretty too, it's just that I'm turned off by things which make no sense to me. It's not like I -choose- not to like fanon!Draco-- he just annoys me, what can I say.

This was true before I even read canon, man. Ivy was like, the second HP fanfic writer I read (after Durendal), and I loved her characterizations and still do-- she's clearly got insight, even if it's into her own version of the characters. The stuff I can't stand usually has flat, stupid idealized versions of characters, where people weep and/or cut themselves or do outrageous things to become Good (or Evil) or like, become sluts overnight. Why do people write that stuff? It huuuuuuurts uuuuusssss, etcetc :>

It's funny because I love both Miss Breed's & Ivy's writing, and I couldn't tell you which I prefer. They're both great writers with insight into human beings, and they write about -people- and not cardboard cut-outs, and that's what I really want. However, Ivy's skill in writing is still more tied to canonicity than I imagine Resonant's or Geoviki's or AJ Hall's is, though I haven't read any of these. Ivy still writes about -boys- and their mistakes, rather than y'know, sophisticated young men or whatever. In the end, my "kink"(?) is that Harry & Draco be boys. Just. Y'know. BOYS.

Yeah, okay, they're getting a happy & I'm not blaming them either-- I'm just frustrated that this is the dominant paradigm, though not really surprised. I like emotional manipulation & like... bottom!Draco smut at times, too, but... yeah, I don't call it good or great or perfect.

I think this is meta-wankery, btw :> :>