~~ pre-slash. it's just hot!
May. 13th, 2004 03:21 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaI wonder if people's insistence that Kirk & Spock were actually lovers in canon is at least partly to make their slashing in fanfic be "in character". And in general, I keep wondering why is it that people keep insisting that their favorite pairing is actually -there- in the canon to start with. If it -is- to defend the "legitimacy" of their fanfic, I've got to say it's not doing much for anybody, since at least 75% of any slash/alternate het pairing fanfic in any fandom I've ever read, in which I'm even passingly familiar with the canon, I'd consider OOC. Painfully so.
On the other hand, I find that most gen fanfic is pretty in-character-- and I would call the commercial tie-in novels gen fanfic. Hmm, seems like something's going on here, right? Maybe it's just a question of "keeping the flavor"-- i.e., the original genre.
I think the trick is, in order for the characters to seem fully themselves, they have to keep up the same pattern of behavior they started with. That is to say, they have to stay constant throughout the fic-- if they change, it should be subtle and gradual, so that at the end of the fic, the character should still be as familiar as at the beginning.
So if in canon, two characters are very-close-but-not-sexual, that is how it should stay in order to guarantee the fic feels "in character". Conversely, if the characters are at odds in canon, they should generally stay at odds throughout the fic to some degree for it to remain "authentic" feeling. Only the most talented writer can successfully introduce new pairings or character dynamics into the story and retain that "authentic" feel, which is probably part of the reason commercial tie-in fics aren't usually inter-canon-character romances. Like, ever.
That said, I think I've figured out why people make the startling claim that I write Draco or whoever "in character". Thing is, I simply find it too difficult to believably develop him (and I have these pesky high standards). I consider it a weakness, but that also means that he remains semi-stable as related to his initial state. Harry & Draco's relationship is difficult for me to progress. I still haven't figured out how the relationship could believably happen, so the result is that I write "in character" H/D.
The problem, I think, with saying Kirk/Spock "exists" in canon (or any other pairing) is that this doesn't make it any easier to write outright slash, actually, because they'd have to remain subtle and subtextual if a fic were to feel in-character, at least to me.
Possibly, this transition from subtext-to-text is harder to achieve believably in serialized stories than even a long set of novels like HP. I mean, JKR certainly develops characters in some wild directions with OoTP, and then there's the fact that they're teenagers, still developing wildly. Even so, most HP slash is OOC, mostly because writers focus on the changes they're interested in rather than developing the similarities enough, I think. By contrast though, Kirk & Spock's characterizations barely change at all through several decades of their lives, and the same can be said for most shows-- unless they're teen shows, like Buffy
Basically, I think that slashfic operates on a different level than genfic in some central way. It subverts and reinterprets rather than continues the story. I think, though, that the less blatant this subversion is, the better it works (so it helps if one doesn't make the characters flamingly gay or into club-hopping and BDSM also). One has to find a fine balance between changing -just enough- to enable this new character dynamic without sending out too many ripples. And of course, a serious new relationship between presumably straight guys is going to send out a -lot- of ripples. It's a major, major shift.
So to me, it makes total sense to not actually canon-slash Jim & Spock even though I believe they do love each other, really (heh). Plenty of people live their lives with many things unspoken, not acted upon, not discussed. I think that's a poignant and very human thing. I think my problem with a lot of people's approach to slash is that they take something delicate and subtle and make it blatant and crude and obvious. Things are rarely that simple, in reality. I mean, in a way, I'll always prefer a subtextual bond over an overt textual one, simply because it's more interesting; has more potential hidden facets. It's more... realistic.
The reason Harry/Draco are like, my favorite slash pairing is because they basically have nothing to lose, I guess. You can incorporate their petty little rivalry and develop it into something more and you can only -add- subtlety and complexity, not subtract it. There's nothing to subtract, man. They're already as blatant and two-dimensional as can be. Woo-hoo!! (Of course, this also means it's hard to write, 'cause you have to do a lot of work to develop them and thus OOCness is born. *sigh*).
It just bothers me when people point at subtext and go "look, see! it's TEXT!! Text, I tell you, text!" The thing is, when you make subtext into text, then all the rest of the text subtly changes, too. Ripples and ponds, all that. I think the writers' tendency to focus on a single extreme locus of change is what makes a lot of fics seem... improbable in their characterization, at least to me. Changes in behavior are very rarely sudden and intense. Usually it's part of a subtle, long-standing pattern, gently curving in a direction hard to diagnose at the time it's happening. To put it bluntly, people don't wake up gay and in love, generally.
Ahhh, pre-slash. It's a rare and beautiful thing~:) If not for the lack of porn, it'd be perfect :D
On the other hand, I find that most gen fanfic is pretty in-character-- and I would call the commercial tie-in novels gen fanfic. Hmm, seems like something's going on here, right? Maybe it's just a question of "keeping the flavor"-- i.e., the original genre.
I think the trick is, in order for the characters to seem fully themselves, they have to keep up the same pattern of behavior they started with. That is to say, they have to stay constant throughout the fic-- if they change, it should be subtle and gradual, so that at the end of the fic, the character should still be as familiar as at the beginning.
So if in canon, two characters are very-close-but-not-sexual, that is how it should stay in order to guarantee the fic feels "in character". Conversely, if the characters are at odds in canon, they should generally stay at odds throughout the fic to some degree for it to remain "authentic" feeling. Only the most talented writer can successfully introduce new pairings or character dynamics into the story and retain that "authentic" feel, which is probably part of the reason commercial tie-in fics aren't usually inter-canon-character romances. Like, ever.
That said, I think I've figured out why people make the startling claim that I write Draco or whoever "in character". Thing is, I simply find it too difficult to believably develop him (and I have these pesky high standards). I consider it a weakness, but that also means that he remains semi-stable as related to his initial state. Harry & Draco's relationship is difficult for me to progress. I still haven't figured out how the relationship could believably happen, so the result is that I write "in character" H/D.
The problem, I think, with saying Kirk/Spock "exists" in canon (or any other pairing) is that this doesn't make it any easier to write outright slash, actually, because they'd have to remain subtle and subtextual if a fic were to feel in-character, at least to me.
Possibly, this transition from subtext-to-text is harder to achieve believably in serialized stories than even a long set of novels like HP. I mean, JKR certainly develops characters in some wild directions with OoTP, and then there's the fact that they're teenagers, still developing wildly. Even so, most HP slash is OOC, mostly because writers focus on the changes they're interested in rather than developing the similarities enough, I think. By contrast though, Kirk & Spock's characterizations barely change at all through several decades of their lives, and the same can be said for most shows-- unless they're teen shows, like Buffy
Basically, I think that slashfic operates on a different level than genfic in some central way. It subverts and reinterprets rather than continues the story. I think, though, that the less blatant this subversion is, the better it works (so it helps if one doesn't make the characters flamingly gay or into club-hopping and BDSM also). One has to find a fine balance between changing -just enough- to enable this new character dynamic without sending out too many ripples. And of course, a serious new relationship between presumably straight guys is going to send out a -lot- of ripples. It's a major, major shift.
So to me, it makes total sense to not actually canon-slash Jim & Spock even though I believe they do love each other, really (heh). Plenty of people live their lives with many things unspoken, not acted upon, not discussed. I think that's a poignant and very human thing. I think my problem with a lot of people's approach to slash is that they take something delicate and subtle and make it blatant and crude and obvious. Things are rarely that simple, in reality. I mean, in a way, I'll always prefer a subtextual bond over an overt textual one, simply because it's more interesting; has more potential hidden facets. It's more... realistic.
The reason Harry/Draco are like, my favorite slash pairing is because they basically have nothing to lose, I guess. You can incorporate their petty little rivalry and develop it into something more and you can only -add- subtlety and complexity, not subtract it. There's nothing to subtract, man. They're already as blatant and two-dimensional as can be. Woo-hoo!! (Of course, this also means it's hard to write, 'cause you have to do a lot of work to develop them and thus OOCness is born. *sigh*).
It just bothers me when people point at subtext and go "look, see! it's TEXT!! Text, I tell you, text!" The thing is, when you make subtext into text, then all the rest of the text subtly changes, too. Ripples and ponds, all that. I think the writers' tendency to focus on a single extreme locus of change is what makes a lot of fics seem... improbable in their characterization, at least to me. Changes in behavior are very rarely sudden and intense. Usually it's part of a subtle, long-standing pattern, gently curving in a direction hard to diagnose at the time it's happening. To put it bluntly, people don't wake up gay and in love, generally.
Ahhh, pre-slash. It's a rare and beautiful thing~:) If not for the lack of porn, it'd be perfect :D
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Re: the two subvert the dominant paradigm right there on the floor of the cave
Date: 2004-05-13 03:21 am (UTC)heh. Even though I was mocking "we're not gay..." I believe it too for K/S. I believe in the K/S-- as it is beautiful, and yet I also mock it, for it is silly. Much like all of TOS, actually. TNG may be more polished and sophisticated, but TOS had *heart* and humor. The TOS crew always seemed like they were having a good time. You get the sense that they'd be way more fun to hang out with.
And don't reject the Istannor due to the Kirk-worship...*cries* I want to know what you think. I'm sure she's got some porn in there somewhere...
Hm. ever read jacquez? She also has a few HP. And she has a recs page.
Re: the two subvert the dominant paradigm right there on the floor of the cave
Date: 2004-05-17 03:53 pm (UTC)see, um, I trust Cimorene ('Silvia's associates'-- it's like a brand name or something), and she has a Star Trek recs page, here (http://www.rightthisway.net/cimorene/recstrek.html), much more extensive than the other one I showed you, and it has several of the same fics listed. Mostly, it had the latest one I read/liked-- Varoneeka's `Improvisation'. I think I totally agree with Cimorene mini-reviews, from what I can tell~:)
Though, I mean, I have "issues" 'cause I'm -still- not buying the K/S angest & paaaane, but, uh. Yeah -.-
It's all good until it gets to the sex, ahahah (and afterwards, even). Ahahah, and I still say it's better with sex than without sex, as a romance, 'cause good sex (if it ever happens) would really fill out the characterization. Heh.
eureka!!
Date: 2004-05-18 03:13 am (UTC)`In Check (http://www.rightthisway.net/cimorene/trek/check.html)', most definitely. What do you think? Am curious :D :D!!
Re: eureka!!
Date: 2004-05-19 12:04 am (UTC)Hee. I've always liked that one as well (I went through all of cimorene's page and recs awhile ago. heh. I CHALLENGE you to find a noncrap K/S I haven't read.)
I remember it mostly for:
Spock thinking that no one else could ever mind-meld with Kirk as thoughtfully as he did (hee) and
"Jim, you are strewing fragments of doughnut throughout my quarters."
Undeniably good, but a little too "talking heads" for me, better as an argument/persuasion that "yes this could be like this" than as a story (if that makes any sense)... and "Kirk and Spock need to deal with the (accidental) bond" is only behind "Spock goes into Pon Farr" as a oft-visited K/S theme. This might be the best version I've read of it, but after awhile even the bestest ringing of the changes all blur together in my tiny brain.
But the Spock POV is very well-done. It does that great 1st person pov balance between what the character says is true and what the tone/word choice/etc imply is true. I am a savage, though--style and skill probably don't do as much for me as they do for you. ;_; What I really want is the meat underneath.
Re: eureka!!
Date: 2004-05-19 12:17 am (UTC)You're right though, a lot of it's passive characterization in that I was enjoying a -lack- of something (mush & melodrama) as much as a presence of goodness (though it was very well-written, I thought). All of Cimorene's own writings are understated and pretty in-character also, I thought, which is a relief. I wish I could be understated and controlled when I grow up. *weeps*
I actually really do trust your responses 'cause we rarely really disagree except in focus, y'know? Like, you generally pay attention to different aspects, maybe, but I can always see where you're coming from, and probably vice versa. I think it's less that "great minds think alike" (as in, parallel) than that "great minds think compatibly" (er, as in... with enough intersections). And yes, aren't I logical today :D
This makes me somewhat tempted to go after you for feedback on the H/D fic I'm currently tinkering with. Not like a beta, but like. I dunno whether it has "meat". I'm bad with knowing whether I've made meat, poultry or french fries ^^;; I do think that the actual writing in it is sub-par (for me)-- like, awkward in places. But then, I'm working on it. So I'm curious if there's something beyond the writing here that I'm not seeing :>
Ah... it's all about the complementary, my friend. I like being a savage though :> Muwahahah.
melting in transgalactic bliss= cool phrase
Date: 2004-05-19 11:03 pm (UTC)But sometimes restraint turns to artycoldness--which I dislike more than the plebiest, plebe angsty Draco-is-a-Veela-and-Harry-is-his-mate fic.
but I can always see where you're coming from, and probably vice versa. I think it's less that "great minds think alike" (as in, parallel) than that "great minds think compatibly" (er, as in... with enough intersections).
Main point: out minds are GREAT! :D go us!! wooooo!
But I'm glad for understanding-ness--we touch across the void. yeah!
Hm. I think you usually make lemonade (not the store concentrate stuff).
I am happy to look at anything, and I might not even notice your version of sub-par. It's like... wine tasters with really developed palates--they can tell the difference between the $50 bottle and the $1000 bottle. But most people will tell little to no difference.
*melts into transgalactic bliss w/ you* :DD
(omG, you have made me mix my eastern and western emoticon usage!! bad influence!!)
Re: melting in transgalactic bliss= cool phrase
Date: 2004-05-20 02:33 am (UTC)Yeah, I know what you mean about artycoldness. Sometimes I get insecure 'cause I don't write with -precision- like that, but then, it's sad to write things that aren't exuberant somehow. In some way. Well, when you're writing H/D porn anyway, ahahah. There must be a reason for why that's mostly what I do :>
Hahah no I don't think I've standards -that- high, oh boy. Well, maybe I always judge myself by my best work as I see it, but I don't judge my best work, say, by the standards of what I consider Really Good Work, or I'd be... depressed. Meep. Then again, I'm more aware of my flaws than most writers, maybe. ^^; Also, I lust after the plot and world-building and logical exposition other people do. But ahahah I can write smut with the best of 'em. Or something. ><
Lemonade, huh :D :D *snorts*
Anyway, um, here (http://reenka.expecto-patronum.net/wip/_hp_fire.text) :D Meep. Only a second draft or so, haven't gone through it for typos/grammar yet, but am impatient. :>
...
Date: 2004-05-20 02:34 am (UTC)Re: ...
Date: 2004-05-20 10:25 pm (UTC)*runs away*