~~ pre-slash. it's just hot!
May. 13th, 2004 03:21 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaI wonder if people's insistence that Kirk & Spock were actually lovers in canon is at least partly to make their slashing in fanfic be "in character". And in general, I keep wondering why is it that people keep insisting that their favorite pairing is actually -there- in the canon to start with. If it -is- to defend the "legitimacy" of their fanfic, I've got to say it's not doing much for anybody, since at least 75% of any slash/alternate het pairing fanfic in any fandom I've ever read, in which I'm even passingly familiar with the canon, I'd consider OOC. Painfully so.
On the other hand, I find that most gen fanfic is pretty in-character-- and I would call the commercial tie-in novels gen fanfic. Hmm, seems like something's going on here, right? Maybe it's just a question of "keeping the flavor"-- i.e., the original genre.
I think the trick is, in order for the characters to seem fully themselves, they have to keep up the same pattern of behavior they started with. That is to say, they have to stay constant throughout the fic-- if they change, it should be subtle and gradual, so that at the end of the fic, the character should still be as familiar as at the beginning.
So if in canon, two characters are very-close-but-not-sexual, that is how it should stay in order to guarantee the fic feels "in character". Conversely, if the characters are at odds in canon, they should generally stay at odds throughout the fic to some degree for it to remain "authentic" feeling. Only the most talented writer can successfully introduce new pairings or character dynamics into the story and retain that "authentic" feel, which is probably part of the reason commercial tie-in fics aren't usually inter-canon-character romances. Like, ever.
That said, I think I've figured out why people make the startling claim that I write Draco or whoever "in character". Thing is, I simply find it too difficult to believably develop him (and I have these pesky high standards). I consider it a weakness, but that also means that he remains semi-stable as related to his initial state. Harry & Draco's relationship is difficult for me to progress. I still haven't figured out how the relationship could believably happen, so the result is that I write "in character" H/D.
The problem, I think, with saying Kirk/Spock "exists" in canon (or any other pairing) is that this doesn't make it any easier to write outright slash, actually, because they'd have to remain subtle and subtextual if a fic were to feel in-character, at least to me.
Possibly, this transition from subtext-to-text is harder to achieve believably in serialized stories than even a long set of novels like HP. I mean, JKR certainly develops characters in some wild directions with OoTP, and then there's the fact that they're teenagers, still developing wildly. Even so, most HP slash is OOC, mostly because writers focus on the changes they're interested in rather than developing the similarities enough, I think. By contrast though, Kirk & Spock's characterizations barely change at all through several decades of their lives, and the same can be said for most shows-- unless they're teen shows, like Buffy
Basically, I think that slashfic operates on a different level than genfic in some central way. It subverts and reinterprets rather than continues the story. I think, though, that the less blatant this subversion is, the better it works (so it helps if one doesn't make the characters flamingly gay or into club-hopping and BDSM also). One has to find a fine balance between changing -just enough- to enable this new character dynamic without sending out too many ripples. And of course, a serious new relationship between presumably straight guys is going to send out a -lot- of ripples. It's a major, major shift.
So to me, it makes total sense to not actually canon-slash Jim & Spock even though I believe they do love each other, really (heh). Plenty of people live their lives with many things unspoken, not acted upon, not discussed. I think that's a poignant and very human thing. I think my problem with a lot of people's approach to slash is that they take something delicate and subtle and make it blatant and crude and obvious. Things are rarely that simple, in reality. I mean, in a way, I'll always prefer a subtextual bond over an overt textual one, simply because it's more interesting; has more potential hidden facets. It's more... realistic.
The reason Harry/Draco are like, my favorite slash pairing is because they basically have nothing to lose, I guess. You can incorporate their petty little rivalry and develop it into something more and you can only -add- subtlety and complexity, not subtract it. There's nothing to subtract, man. They're already as blatant and two-dimensional as can be. Woo-hoo!! (Of course, this also means it's hard to write, 'cause you have to do a lot of work to develop them and thus OOCness is born. *sigh*).
It just bothers me when people point at subtext and go "look, see! it's TEXT!! Text, I tell you, text!" The thing is, when you make subtext into text, then all the rest of the text subtly changes, too. Ripples and ponds, all that. I think the writers' tendency to focus on a single extreme locus of change is what makes a lot of fics seem... improbable in their characterization, at least to me. Changes in behavior are very rarely sudden and intense. Usually it's part of a subtle, long-standing pattern, gently curving in a direction hard to diagnose at the time it's happening. To put it bluntly, people don't wake up gay and in love, generally.
Ahhh, pre-slash. It's a rare and beautiful thing~:) If not for the lack of porn, it'd be perfect :D
On the other hand, I find that most gen fanfic is pretty in-character-- and I would call the commercial tie-in novels gen fanfic. Hmm, seems like something's going on here, right? Maybe it's just a question of "keeping the flavor"-- i.e., the original genre.
I think the trick is, in order for the characters to seem fully themselves, they have to keep up the same pattern of behavior they started with. That is to say, they have to stay constant throughout the fic-- if they change, it should be subtle and gradual, so that at the end of the fic, the character should still be as familiar as at the beginning.
So if in canon, two characters are very-close-but-not-sexual, that is how it should stay in order to guarantee the fic feels "in character". Conversely, if the characters are at odds in canon, they should generally stay at odds throughout the fic to some degree for it to remain "authentic" feeling. Only the most talented writer can successfully introduce new pairings or character dynamics into the story and retain that "authentic" feel, which is probably part of the reason commercial tie-in fics aren't usually inter-canon-character romances. Like, ever.
That said, I think I've figured out why people make the startling claim that I write Draco or whoever "in character". Thing is, I simply find it too difficult to believably develop him (and I have these pesky high standards). I consider it a weakness, but that also means that he remains semi-stable as related to his initial state. Harry & Draco's relationship is difficult for me to progress. I still haven't figured out how the relationship could believably happen, so the result is that I write "in character" H/D.
The problem, I think, with saying Kirk/Spock "exists" in canon (or any other pairing) is that this doesn't make it any easier to write outright slash, actually, because they'd have to remain subtle and subtextual if a fic were to feel in-character, at least to me.
Possibly, this transition from subtext-to-text is harder to achieve believably in serialized stories than even a long set of novels like HP. I mean, JKR certainly develops characters in some wild directions with OoTP, and then there's the fact that they're teenagers, still developing wildly. Even so, most HP slash is OOC, mostly because writers focus on the changes they're interested in rather than developing the similarities enough, I think. By contrast though, Kirk & Spock's characterizations barely change at all through several decades of their lives, and the same can be said for most shows-- unless they're teen shows, like Buffy
Basically, I think that slashfic operates on a different level than genfic in some central way. It subverts and reinterprets rather than continues the story. I think, though, that the less blatant this subversion is, the better it works (so it helps if one doesn't make the characters flamingly gay or into club-hopping and BDSM also). One has to find a fine balance between changing -just enough- to enable this new character dynamic without sending out too many ripples. And of course, a serious new relationship between presumably straight guys is going to send out a -lot- of ripples. It's a major, major shift.
So to me, it makes total sense to not actually canon-slash Jim & Spock even though I believe they do love each other, really (heh). Plenty of people live their lives with many things unspoken, not acted upon, not discussed. I think that's a poignant and very human thing. I think my problem with a lot of people's approach to slash is that they take something delicate and subtle and make it blatant and crude and obvious. Things are rarely that simple, in reality. I mean, in a way, I'll always prefer a subtextual bond over an overt textual one, simply because it's more interesting; has more potential hidden facets. It's more... realistic.
The reason Harry/Draco are like, my favorite slash pairing is because they basically have nothing to lose, I guess. You can incorporate their petty little rivalry and develop it into something more and you can only -add- subtlety and complexity, not subtract it. There's nothing to subtract, man. They're already as blatant and two-dimensional as can be. Woo-hoo!! (Of course, this also means it's hard to write, 'cause you have to do a lot of work to develop them and thus OOCness is born. *sigh*).
It just bothers me when people point at subtext and go "look, see! it's TEXT!! Text, I tell you, text!" The thing is, when you make subtext into text, then all the rest of the text subtly changes, too. Ripples and ponds, all that. I think the writers' tendency to focus on a single extreme locus of change is what makes a lot of fics seem... improbable in their characterization, at least to me. Changes in behavior are very rarely sudden and intense. Usually it's part of a subtle, long-standing pattern, gently curving in a direction hard to diagnose at the time it's happening. To put it bluntly, people don't wake up gay and in love, generally.
Ahhh, pre-slash. It's a rare and beautiful thing~:) If not for the lack of porn, it'd be perfect :D
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the two subvert the dominant paradigm right there on the floor of the cave
Date: 2004-05-13 02:46 am (UTC)I don't know, getting into those kinds of details just seems so highschool-y. "Oh look they held hands... for 25 seconds! Love!!!" If nothing else, Kirk and Spock are *men*. At least with Harry and Draco they're hormonal teens, but Kirk and Spock are not only mature adults, they're supremely competent and dedicated and mature and intelligent and flexible (dealing with all those aliens) adults. To have them acting like teens... like dumb teens... no.
Basically, I think that slashfic operates on a different level than genfic in some central way. It subverts and reinterprets rather than continues the story. I think, though, that the less blatant this subversion is, the better it works (so it helps if one doesn't make the characters flamingly gay or into club-hopping and BDSM also)
I agree about the blatancy idea, but I think it depends on what you are looking for a story to do for you. In many ways slash isn't about a plain old "good story," it's like a romance or mystery in that it rings certain changes that push certain buttons in people. Sometimes I don't want more from a fic than for it to do its slash-work. It doesn't need to be complete in canon characterization, plot development, etc etc. I'm reading it as a genre piece knowing what I'm getting.
And as much as "slash subverts, gen continues" sounds so cool and is often true, I have to be an annoying devil's advocate. Often genfic is about filling in the gaps, prequels, or flights of fancy that are just as absurd as Harry and Draco getting it on in the quidditch showers. For example, there were a few nonslash stories where Snape rescues Harry from the Dursleys and they become friends/allies... or Snape is Harry's father...or Harry is crazy and this is all his dream... Hm. These are also big reinterpretation of the text, if less controversial society-politics-wise. Is that the main difference? How likely the person the street is to say "ew"? If so, I guess we can lump in all those incest and necrophilia and even kinky het rape fics with slash?
I'd also say gen fics are as much about "filling in" and explaining as they are about continuing. Because gen fics tend to be more in-line with canon, they're also likely to stay within the canon timeline. And how much romance is required before gen becomes het, and where to draw the line between het and slash in subversion and canon-ness?
The thing is, when you make subtext into text, then all the rest of the text subtly changes, too. Ripples and ponds, all that.
word. word. word.
To put it bluntly, people don't wake up gay and in love, generally.
ah, but I counter with the ever-convincing and well-respected "they are not gay, they just love each other" argument. And then I add the word T'hy'la just because it feels like there has been much discussion of K/S and that word has yet to be mentioned, which is probably against some slash law.
:)
a little p.s.
I forgot to include the TOS fics I've found that made me happy in my last comment, so I'm adding them here before I fall into bed.
2 authors I like (I'm never quite sure if that means they're "good" or not):
Gil Shalos http://www.gilshalos.0catch.com/
It's gen except for a Uhura/Janice Lester (!!!) story, and there are quite a few OC including a female officer BUT STILL!! good good stuff. I feel like these could be bound into TOS paperbacks. The Kirk-Spock friendship is well handled, as are all the main TOS characters and it's just good. Also "Arrows of Desire" is the only fanfic I've ever read that scared me.)
Istannor http://members.tripod.com/~Istannor/Stardust.html
(one of the worst site designs ever, watch out for sound clips, but worth poking around into every corner)
My fav's are "The Bully" and "The Awakening". Some of her other stuff is a little too Kirk-worship-y and her Spock is too enthralled with Kirk, and some just goes in a direction that makes me think "uh no." But the The Bully and The Awakening are both like gen with some flavorings of slash.
Re: the two subvert the dominant paradigm right there on the floor of the cave
Date: 2004-05-13 03:05 am (UTC)I actually really liked the review of the series and remembering all those times I did go "hmmm". I do think they're in love, y'know. Just not having sex, probably. Never occured, I'm guessing. See, the thing is, I stopped reading Star Trek genfic -ages- ago. I'm only reading through K/S stuff now 'cause of the curiosity factor-- I've already read waaaaaaaaaaay too much genfic for them. It's like... a scar on my soul. Or something. Well, I spent like, 2 years doing that and little else, pretty much, so ^^;; So-- while I want gennish K/S, I still want my porn. Is what I'm saying :D ahahahaha
Like I said. Gen. Except. PR0N!!1 *coughs*
I actually think I haven't read enough gen fanfic (well... next to none) so I was madly generalizing. You're right. I -do- think slash & gen/het do different things at heart, but... things do get fuzzy. I also was thinking of the commercial genfic that I'd read, which -does- continue even as it fills in (if that makes sense)-- maybe I could just say "expands", but then, it prolly gets selected for that. So yeah. People are pretty wacky and "Harry became a koala" is also gen. Heh.
I do think that they're-not-gay-they-just-love-each-other in Kirk&Spock's case, actually :D ahahah. But in general, people these days write it as "well, of course he wanted him 'cause he likes guys". Which is like, translating the dominant orientation paradigm into another direction wholesale, which annoys me.
A Spock who's Kirk-worshippy kinda deeply disturbs me, I think ^^; Ahh, it's that romancey lovey-dovey thing again :>
Re: the two subvert the dominant paradigm right there on the floor of the cave
Date: 2004-05-13 03:21 am (UTC)heh. Even though I was mocking "we're not gay..." I believe it too for K/S. I believe in the K/S-- as it is beautiful, and yet I also mock it, for it is silly. Much like all of TOS, actually. TNG may be more polished and sophisticated, but TOS had *heart* and humor. The TOS crew always seemed like they were having a good time. You get the sense that they'd be way more fun to hang out with.
And don't reject the Istannor due to the Kirk-worship...*cries* I want to know what you think. I'm sure she's got some porn in there somewhere...
Hm. ever read jacquez? She also has a few HP. And she has a recs page.
Re: the two subvert the dominant paradigm right there on the floor of the cave
Date: 2004-05-17 03:53 pm (UTC)see, um, I trust Cimorene ('Silvia's associates'-- it's like a brand name or something), and she has a Star Trek recs page, here (http://www.rightthisway.net/cimorene/recstrek.html), much more extensive than the other one I showed you, and it has several of the same fics listed. Mostly, it had the latest one I read/liked-- Varoneeka's `Improvisation'. I think I totally agree with Cimorene mini-reviews, from what I can tell~:)
Though, I mean, I have "issues" 'cause I'm -still- not buying the K/S angest & paaaane, but, uh. Yeah -.-
It's all good until it gets to the sex, ahahah (and afterwards, even). Ahahah, and I still say it's better with sex than without sex, as a romance, 'cause good sex (if it ever happens) would really fill out the characterization. Heh.
eureka!!
Date: 2004-05-18 03:13 am (UTC)`In Check (http://www.rightthisway.net/cimorene/trek/check.html)', most definitely. What do you think? Am curious :D :D!!
Re: eureka!!
Date: 2004-05-19 12:04 am (UTC)Hee. I've always liked that one as well (I went through all of cimorene's page and recs awhile ago. heh. I CHALLENGE you to find a noncrap K/S I haven't read.)
I remember it mostly for:
Spock thinking that no one else could ever mind-meld with Kirk as thoughtfully as he did (hee) and
"Jim, you are strewing fragments of doughnut throughout my quarters."
Undeniably good, but a little too "talking heads" for me, better as an argument/persuasion that "yes this could be like this" than as a story (if that makes any sense)... and "Kirk and Spock need to deal with the (accidental) bond" is only behind "Spock goes into Pon Farr" as a oft-visited K/S theme. This might be the best version I've read of it, but after awhile even the bestest ringing of the changes all blur together in my tiny brain.
But the Spock POV is very well-done. It does that great 1st person pov balance between what the character says is true and what the tone/word choice/etc imply is true. I am a savage, though--style and skill probably don't do as much for me as they do for you. ;_; What I really want is the meat underneath.
Re: eureka!!
Date: 2004-05-19 12:17 am (UTC)You're right though, a lot of it's passive characterization in that I was enjoying a -lack- of something (mush & melodrama) as much as a presence of goodness (though it was very well-written, I thought). All of Cimorene's own writings are understated and pretty in-character also, I thought, which is a relief. I wish I could be understated and controlled when I grow up. *weeps*
I actually really do trust your responses 'cause we rarely really disagree except in focus, y'know? Like, you generally pay attention to different aspects, maybe, but I can always see where you're coming from, and probably vice versa. I think it's less that "great minds think alike" (as in, parallel) than that "great minds think compatibly" (er, as in... with enough intersections). And yes, aren't I logical today :D
This makes me somewhat tempted to go after you for feedback on the H/D fic I'm currently tinkering with. Not like a beta, but like. I dunno whether it has "meat". I'm bad with knowing whether I've made meat, poultry or french fries ^^;; I do think that the actual writing in it is sub-par (for me)-- like, awkward in places. But then, I'm working on it. So I'm curious if there's something beyond the writing here that I'm not seeing :>
Ah... it's all about the complementary, my friend. I like being a savage though :> Muwahahah.
melting in transgalactic bliss= cool phrase
Date: 2004-05-19 11:03 pm (UTC)But sometimes restraint turns to artycoldness--which I dislike more than the plebiest, plebe angsty Draco-is-a-Veela-and-Harry-is-his-mate fic.
but I can always see where you're coming from, and probably vice versa. I think it's less that "great minds think alike" (as in, parallel) than that "great minds think compatibly" (er, as in... with enough intersections).
Main point: out minds are GREAT! :D go us!! wooooo!
But I'm glad for understanding-ness--we touch across the void. yeah!
Hm. I think you usually make lemonade (not the store concentrate stuff).
I am happy to look at anything, and I might not even notice your version of sub-par. It's like... wine tasters with really developed palates--they can tell the difference between the $50 bottle and the $1000 bottle. But most people will tell little to no difference.
*melts into transgalactic bliss w/ you* :DD
(omG, you have made me mix my eastern and western emoticon usage!! bad influence!!)
Re: melting in transgalactic bliss= cool phrase
Date: 2004-05-20 02:33 am (UTC)Yeah, I know what you mean about artycoldness. Sometimes I get insecure 'cause I don't write with -precision- like that, but then, it's sad to write things that aren't exuberant somehow. In some way. Well, when you're writing H/D porn anyway, ahahah. There must be a reason for why that's mostly what I do :>
Hahah no I don't think I've standards -that- high, oh boy. Well, maybe I always judge myself by my best work as I see it, but I don't judge my best work, say, by the standards of what I consider Really Good Work, or I'd be... depressed. Meep. Then again, I'm more aware of my flaws than most writers, maybe. ^^; Also, I lust after the plot and world-building and logical exposition other people do. But ahahah I can write smut with the best of 'em. Or something. ><
Lemonade, huh :D :D *snorts*
Anyway, um, here (http://reenka.expecto-patronum.net/wip/_hp_fire.text) :D Meep. Only a second draft or so, haven't gone through it for typos/grammar yet, but am impatient. :>
...
Date: 2004-05-20 02:34 am (UTC)Re: ...
Date: 2004-05-20 10:25 pm (UTC)*runs away*
no subject
Date: 2004-05-13 07:20 am (UTC)I sometimes wonder exactly what people mean when they say something is "in the text." For instance, I do sort of feel like H/D is in the text, but when I think that I don't mean I think they're lovers or that they are even really attracted to each other. I guess they could be unconsciously. Maybe it's more that I feel like this is a relationship I could see having that little hint of sexuality to it, whether or not it was ever acted on. It's like Mulder/Krycek, for me. The fact that they are both attracted and repelled by the other comes out looking like a sexual tension. So it's canon, but that's not to say I mean they are really sexually attracted to each other.
I think when one suggests the characters really are lovers it's almost a totally different thing and maybe that usually happens more often with pairings that are friends. Like, it's one thing to suggest that you think that after the stairway scene Harry and Draco came across each other and had angry sex, and that on the train Draco was confronting Harry to make sure he wasn't going to say anything. That wuold sort of add another layer of tension to their relationship but it wouldn't change it. But to say you think Kirk and Spock are really lovers changes all of their scenes, and not in a particularly interesting way, imo. It just makes it like, "Oh, he looked at him that way cause he's his boyfriend. Oh, he is upset about him because he's his boyfriend." Like you said, making the subtext text changes the text!
Actually, you can see this happening a lot with shippers, I think. Like the way some people seem to completely miss the point of a lot of scenes in the movies (even scenes where the movie is hitting you relentlessly over the head with the point) because anytime any character looks at another all they can see is a sign that they're interested in each other. Like I remember somebody on FAP talking about all the "looks" between Draco and Hermione in CoS and how there was clearly no other interpretation than that they liked each other. And I was like, "Um, the movie was playing up the Mudblood thing pretty obnoxiously, did you really not get that that was the point? That they were usually looking at each other when something about that came up?" What was scary was they really didn't seem to get that, because instead of looking to the context of the scene for their interpretation it all came down to subtextual attraction. The actual plot was just background to the point of absurdity.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-13 03:35 pm (UTC)I know what you mean about every look being interpreted in 'that' way... I mean, that's what people are looking for. We all see what we want to see most of the time-- so that the story becomes about the reader and their issues, kinda. I've always felt a bit... bad, I guess, because I take stories as they are all the time and don't tend to dig for subtext or overinterpret things-- like, I tend to try to follow what the story's own cues are, just 'cause I'm passive thatr way. Maybe most people are just much more interactive (or plain -active-) than that, and they try to write their own story as they watch or read. Projection, that's it. I don't do that much; I tend to identify with the characters and subvert myself into them rather than vice versa.
Maybe it's like, "well, if -I- was Hermione, I'd want some of that Draco ass", at least partly. Oh man. ^^;