~~ mind you, I hate Lucius, so.
May. 6th, 2004 05:25 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaFor the record (if there is such a thing), I suppose I should finalize my opinion on whether Lucius loves Draco. I've never really thought about it, but I found I rather respect Jane St Clair (she of the likable Star Trek fic and the fondness for nasty!Draco), and she says Lucius "adores" him, and....
Well, it's like this. As the facts seem to stand, Lucius seems to indulge and coddle Draco in some ways, it is true-- but not others. Not when Draco's an embarrassment to him. He goes all out financially when he seems to think it's useful and witholds when he finds it frivolous (well, mostly I'm basing this on the Dark Arts shop). Lucius has no problem scolding Draco, so he's not some super-indulgent super-adoring parent, anyway, although Draco feels comfortable enough to whine on and on, so there mustn't be any serious repercussions. Narcissa gives every indication of being superficial-- again, this focus on gifts and money as signs of love (candy owl posts). Lucius seems to have some sort of agenda, though.
But. I think there is a huge difference between throwing money at things and making sure certain life-lessons are instilled and actually being a doting, devoted parent who spends "quality time" with their child. Who -bonds- with their child and does what's really in their best interest regardless of "the plan".
Lucius Malfoy is a single-minded power-hungry politician who has his fingers in a number of pies, it seems. I get the impression that he's a busy man. More importantly, I don't get the impression that he's an emotionally open, caring man. Now, it may seem that being caring and empathic in general doesn't have a bearing on how loving and good of a parent you are, but I think it does. Maybe you can -not show- that side of you to most people, but it has to be there. And, indeed, if it is there, your child tends not to grow up to be an insufferable prick (yeah, that'd be Draco, much as I love him).
What I'm saying is, Draco's horrible behavior at school is proof enough that his parents aren't giving him some sort of ideal caring environment. Though it's not saying they -beat- him or make his life miserable. It's not one or the other. It could just be the usual-- that people don't know how to love whether they feel it or not. They don't know how to be decent human beings so they don't know how to teach their child to be one.
I think it's the Dursley phenomenon, actually. The parents are awful, and so is the child. It seems, indeed, like they dote on Dudley, but to me, that sort of love is fake and disgusting. It's some sort of parody fascimile of love, because these people wouldn't know real love if it hit them on the hiney and bit down. It's empty, is what I'm saying. There's no real... human bonding going on. It's all about wanting the child to be an exact duplicate of you, wanting them to -become- you.
The Dursleys willfully -ignore- Dudley's real problems until he deals with them in his own way (weight, bullying), just as the Malfoys ignore Draco's (possibly alienation, bullying, anger issues, whatever). That's not love, that's narcissism. So even if such a person -thinks- they love their child, the only thing they love is themselves. It doesn't even matter to me how Lucius actually acts toward Draco, because I can only believe that he doesn't love anything but himself, whatever he thinks.
Overall, I think I'm angry with him. Lucius, I mean. To me, it's not a question of whether he loves Draco or not-- he still hasn't done right by Draco as far as I'm concerned. Love isn't enough, really. Love isn't so much the most important aspect of parenting as the basis from which everything spreads, generally. Thing is-- everyone loves their children. Everyone. Sure, Lucius does and so would Tom Riddle, if he had any. Big whoop, eh? Doesn't mean they won't make their child's life a mockery or a living hell, but I don't think one could say they don't "love" them.
I don't see where this fascination with -whether- Lucius loves Draco comes from. Perhaps it's right there in the text, actually, since it's so vital that Harry's mother really -really- loved him, enough to protect him with her life. But that was a selfless love, wasn't it. It was a love that acquired its goodness from the goodness of her heart. Lily was a loving person, so her love redeemed. Lucius is... not, so his love can only condemn. Love itself can be a prison, can't it. It's the best prison, really. There's nothing special about the -emotion-, only about the heart it inhabits, I think.
But like I said, I'm rather angry with Lucius.
Well, it's like this. As the facts seem to stand, Lucius seems to indulge and coddle Draco in some ways, it is true-- but not others. Not when Draco's an embarrassment to him. He goes all out financially when he seems to think it's useful and witholds when he finds it frivolous (well, mostly I'm basing this on the Dark Arts shop). Lucius has no problem scolding Draco, so he's not some super-indulgent super-adoring parent, anyway, although Draco feels comfortable enough to whine on and on, so there mustn't be any serious repercussions. Narcissa gives every indication of being superficial-- again, this focus on gifts and money as signs of love (candy owl posts). Lucius seems to have some sort of agenda, though.
But. I think there is a huge difference between throwing money at things and making sure certain life-lessons are instilled and actually being a doting, devoted parent who spends "quality time" with their child. Who -bonds- with their child and does what's really in their best interest regardless of "the plan".
Lucius Malfoy is a single-minded power-hungry politician who has his fingers in a number of pies, it seems. I get the impression that he's a busy man. More importantly, I don't get the impression that he's an emotionally open, caring man. Now, it may seem that being caring and empathic in general doesn't have a bearing on how loving and good of a parent you are, but I think it does. Maybe you can -not show- that side of you to most people, but it has to be there. And, indeed, if it is there, your child tends not to grow up to be an insufferable prick (yeah, that'd be Draco, much as I love him).
What I'm saying is, Draco's horrible behavior at school is proof enough that his parents aren't giving him some sort of ideal caring environment. Though it's not saying they -beat- him or make his life miserable. It's not one or the other. It could just be the usual-- that people don't know how to love whether they feel it or not. They don't know how to be decent human beings so they don't know how to teach their child to be one.
I think it's the Dursley phenomenon, actually. The parents are awful, and so is the child. It seems, indeed, like they dote on Dudley, but to me, that sort of love is fake and disgusting. It's some sort of parody fascimile of love, because these people wouldn't know real love if it hit them on the hiney and bit down. It's empty, is what I'm saying. There's no real... human bonding going on. It's all about wanting the child to be an exact duplicate of you, wanting them to -become- you.
The Dursleys willfully -ignore- Dudley's real problems until he deals with them in his own way (weight, bullying), just as the Malfoys ignore Draco's (possibly alienation, bullying, anger issues, whatever). That's not love, that's narcissism. So even if such a person -thinks- they love their child, the only thing they love is themselves. It doesn't even matter to me how Lucius actually acts toward Draco, because I can only believe that he doesn't love anything but himself, whatever he thinks.
Overall, I think I'm angry with him. Lucius, I mean. To me, it's not a question of whether he loves Draco or not-- he still hasn't done right by Draco as far as I'm concerned. Love isn't enough, really. Love isn't so much the most important aspect of parenting as the basis from which everything spreads, generally. Thing is-- everyone loves their children. Everyone. Sure, Lucius does and so would Tom Riddle, if he had any. Big whoop, eh? Doesn't mean they won't make their child's life a mockery or a living hell, but I don't think one could say they don't "love" them.
I don't see where this fascination with -whether- Lucius loves Draco comes from. Perhaps it's right there in the text, actually, since it's so vital that Harry's mother really -really- loved him, enough to protect him with her life. But that was a selfless love, wasn't it. It was a love that acquired its goodness from the goodness of her heart. Lily was a loving person, so her love redeemed. Lucius is... not, so his love can only condemn. Love itself can be a prison, can't it. It's the best prison, really. There's nothing special about the -emotion-, only about the heart it inhabits, I think.
But like I said, I'm rather angry with Lucius.
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Date: 2004-05-06 04:12 pm (UTC)Anyway, it's weird to me because it's like you say...parents loving their children is pretty much standard, unless they're deranged. Lily's sacrifice is dramatic but it's really not exceptional. Look at Molly's boggart--almost any mother would have done what Lily did. Would Narcissa? Hmmm...we've never seen her. Does she live up to her name so much that she would save herself before her baby? Maybe not, but I think the fear that she wouldn't on Draco's part is far more important than whether or not she actually would. His parents probably do love him, but I don't think he feels loved.
Dudley is probably the same way for the reasons you mentioned--if your parents aren't, say, fat like the doctor says it might be cool in the short run because you don't have to diet. But if you yourself realized it was true they'd be telling you what you were was just too unacceptable to deal with and you'd probably wonder what the point in your even being there is.
So really, I think it's more interesting and more dramatic and probably more realistic and certainly more tragic if Draco's parents love him but really aren't capable of showing it. So my vote goes there.
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Date: 2004-05-06 04:59 pm (UTC)my disturbed and psychotic opinion is thus: Lucius doesn't love him, and he would never admit that he loved him but he probably thinks that he loves him, even though he doesn't.
Because I've always seen Lucius as the Politician Figure, able to weasel his way out and in of Voldemort's gang and Fudge's as the fancy takes him and willing to do so with whatever tools are necessary, but also working this from an aristocratic the-world-owes-me standpoint. So Draco is The Tool and The Heir so much that it probably doesn't occur to Lucius that this is, in the personal sense, his son. and he'd think this was over-sentimental if anyone pointed it out, because, well, Lucius is horrible.
And however much the Durslyes don't love Dudley right, at least there is warmth there of a kind. It's like they have a big puppy, and they feed him too much and he's lazy so they don't walk him and their behaviour is totally bad for the dog and not true love, but hey, the dog's pretty happy, except it's kinda snappy what with being so overfed. Plus the dog owners think it's cute when he savages other dogs.
Whereas Lucius, in keeping with this insane metaphor of Dogs As Children, has got this pedigree puppy. and sure, it's got a marble kennel and a gold bowl and what have you, but why is it so scrawny and disobedient when it has such a great pedigree and what it needs is a Firm Hand.
Which is where the metaphor falls down, because Lucius would actually make a better dog owner than the Dursleys, because of this cool logic, but since Draco is fairly obviously more complex than a dog he turned into a great big annoying and emotionally messed around spaz. Whereas the Dursleys, with the lack of logic that is close to affection, did a better job with a son than they would've with a dog.
Which is not to say that Dudley and Draco should not have been given to the Weasleys or something at birth, because, yes.
(actually the Weasleys are a whole other issue. no, don't give them my baby.)
Evil Lucius? I agree with you!
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Date: 2004-05-06 11:30 pm (UTC)I can't seem him reacting to Draco in any way other than a good parent. Sure, he's embarrassed when Draco's a fuckhead - which most parents would be. Sure, he spoils him. Sure he isn't above giving Draco a casual thwap over the head for being dimwitted.
Draco has been taught he's better than other people. That's where his behaviour problems come from. And because at school, he doesn't always get the respect and love that he seems to believe he deserves unquestionably. He is one of many.
Lucius tells Draco a lot of things that he shouldn't, and respects Draco as a person, not just as a son - I'd believe he treats Draco as an equal half the time, and a child the other half, which might somewhat confuse the relationship, but make it no less loving.
I do think Lucius used to tuck Draco into bed when he was little.
I also think Lucius misses Draco when Draco goes to school.
:)
I'm not in the mood to go fetch canon examples and the like. I just think you should remember is that this is pretty much what would happen if someone like Prince Harry had to attend a local high school in Staines. I don't see Draco as being badly behaved in the slightest; predjudices aside. I'd fucking be mighty pissed off too if my arch nemesis was the local hero.
-Libertine.
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Date: 2004-05-06 11:46 pm (UTC)While it's true that everyone has feelings... I do think that some of us are really stunted in those feelings, and when one has clear prioritization issues and is generally not nice... it seems like one's emotional intelligence is pretty likely to be low. But, I will concede that he -thinks- he's being a good parent and he may -try-, even. I just think he's a complete failure, heh.
Well, I mean... not badly behaved? He does make fun of Ron & Hermione & so on, and while it may be because of prejudices he has, he's still a bastard-- that is, trying to be mean or insulting. He tries to get Harry into trouble, tries to get Hagrid sacked, holds various things over Harry's head and generally makes a nuisance of himself with Umbridge's squad. I do understand it's because he's pissed off-- I'm pretty empathetic to Draco's anger issues. But being pissed off (like Harry was, in OoTP) isn't really a good excuse for being an asshole-- it just shows -why-. Doesn't mean the person's a harmless innocent if they've got a reason, I guess I'm saying.
I'm pretty unreasonable when it comes to Lucius, though a lot of that prolly has to do with the fandom worship of the evil-ice-queen image :> I also pretty much can't stand "but he's nice, really"!Lucius. That leaves complete-raging-fuck-up!Lucius, which I favor, and... I'm willing to admit that maybe he -tries-. And I probably wouldn't care, if his parental project wasn't Draco. I'm kind of protective of Draco, I guess~:)
~reena
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Date: 2004-05-07 07:21 am (UTC)Wow. I can't believe I finally found someone who believes that too! I mean, clearly they're loving parents, or at least Molly is a loving mother, but they're not necessarily very *good* parents... Besides the fact that no one notices Ginny was possessed by VOLDEMORT (and hello? they find out and the first thing that happens is that Arthur YELLS at her?), I am constantly shocked by the treatment Percy endures. I'd probably become a total prat and ignore my family too... On top of which, Molly is awfully hard on the twins, and while you always want your kids to do well, there's a difference between praising them for good grades and constantly yelling at them and punishing them for exploring the things that actually do interest them...
I always kind of had the feeling that after Bill and Charlie they just wanted a girl. Except, of course, that they don't seem to take much better care of Ginny than they do of Ron, Percy, Fred and George...
anyway. I should stop before I go into my fullblown rant in someone else's LJ. But I just wanted to say that I totally agree! The Dursleys and Malfoys = bad parents, but the Weasleys, while better, don't necessarily = good parents.
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Date: 2004-05-07 09:46 am (UTC)Oops. That should read: "If you're parents say you aren't, say, fat like the doctor said it might cool in the short run because you don't have to diet..."
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Date: 2004-05-07 11:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 02:02 am (UTC)Don't mind :D
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Date: 2004-05-09 10:37 am (UTC)You know, this is a very heart-felt and detailed essay and it'd deserve a better and longer answer from me, but because I'm shallow and have no attention span, I just want to point out that Lucius may very well love Draco (I think he loves Draco very much) but this love be unhealthy.
That's not love, that's narcissism.
No, it's still love. It's just filtered or layered with narcissism. Bad people (people who are narcissistic or people who are power-hungry or whatever) love too, even fiercely. They just sometimes don't have the necessary personal balance to love in a... wise way. That's how Drusilla from BTVS put it anyway: "Oh, we can love very well, if not wisely", or something like that. :)
Love isn't enough, really.
This is it.
I'm rather angry with Lucius
He conveniently went into Azkaban so his son could take his place as Harry's main or at least competent antagonist and have some character developement so it's all good really. I am part of the "Lucius is a loser so don't shoot a dead man" club, I think. Or I'll just go found it. :D
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Date: 2004-05-09 07:17 pm (UTC)I don't really love Draco -or- Lucius in the actual books... it took a fandom perspective to make me think more about them and reconsider, y'know? No one writes Lucius in a way that makes me reconsider, really.
I knew I was losing my touch with that whole ranting about narcissism bit-- I was clearly just... you know, venting. I wouldn't presume to label what's love and what isn't, generally. But even -Draco- worships Lucius (even if he hates him sometimes, I think), and... that kind of makes me sick. He's like, my nightmare parent.
It's more than just thinking of Lucius as unwise-- it's that I think of him as -perverted-, psychotic I guess, though I don't have actual evidence for this, so much :>
Most people venerate his evil rather than shoot him, which is prolly why I'm all "grr, argh" about it. Or actually, most people just think he's hot, and then there's the HORRID EVIL CRIME of pairing him with either Harry(!!) or Draco(!!!) or ANYONE (even Narcissa). URGH.
But I see your point :>
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Date: 2004-05-10 12:59 am (UTC)*chokes*wheezes*! Man, I know what you mean. Still! I so so don’t believe that characterisation I’m sort of endeared when I see it. See, I think I was where you are now re=fandom a couple of years ago, when I started out. I was like, Grr, Argh, Remus Lupin the Oppressed Saint? Please. But now I am just happy people are happy so it sort of doesn’t bother me if their take on characters are something I consider the bizarre hybrid of clichè and projection (ahaha, I am so condescening) they are so out there. Like so many people’s idea of Harry… but let’s not go there. No no. Not today.
The only character I still can’t swallow and I think it’s partly cos of the fandom is Neville… but then again I never reacted very well to guilt-trips and moral parables. Die Neville die! (But without anyone waxing poetic over the hoeroics of your death.) I have my own issues allright.
And anyway, Draco’s presence in the fandom is rather disproportionate too, and people do crazy things with Draco too (like sex-god Draco, as you say), so I really don’t feel like using a double standard. I’m all for people getting off whatever their kink is. But sex-god Draco is worse than Lucius, you know. Well, maybe not for you because you don’t love the character, but for all of us who do – well, it’s sort of saddening sometimes. Not because I disagree (I think Draco is an uptight virginal prude) but because well, why isn’t canon Draco enough? Why do you feel you have to improve him? Draco is perfectly allright as he is! But as I said, I am mostly zen with the fandom. It’s just, if people wrote more canon Draco I’d be happier. :D
no subject
Date: 2004-05-10 01:00 am (UTC)But even -Draco- worships Lucius (even if he hates him sometimes, I think), and... that kind of makes me sick. He's like, my nightmare parent.
It's more than just thinking of Lucius as unwise-- it's that I think of him as -perverted-, psychotic I guess, though I don't have actual evidence for this, so much :>
Most people venerate his evil rather than shoot him, which is prolly why I'm all "grr, argh" about it.
I think Lucius is a nightmare parent too! (But Molly Weasley is worse.) But I really don’t have to respect characters to find them interesting or funny. But yes, Lucius isn’t doing Draco any favour - here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/malafede/72849.html#cutid4) a bit more – but as I said, yes. Unwise. Perverted is a part of unwise. I am morbidly fascinated by the kind of love Drusilla describes so, like Spike’s, the kind of selfish harmful unhealthy corrupting love only seriously messed up people with an ego problem feel - but it’s still so primal and fierce and almost childlike and you know, I think most romantic love is inherently selfish anyway, even though not to this extent.
and then there's the HORRID EVIL CRIME of pairing him with either Harry(!!) or Draco(!!!) or ANYONE (even Narcissa). URGH.
Aww. There are lots of Harry pairings I dislike more than Lucius/Harry. Mostly, I don’t care about Lucius/Harry (and I think that whether sexual or not Lucius/Draco is an interesting dynamic, one that you can’t avoid if you write Draco). Harry/Hermione makes me, mmh, I don’t want to say it because I’d look like I’m bashing the fans, whereas it’s really the possibility that it happens in canon that I want to shit over. Harry/Neville is like my anti-happiness. The only Harry pairing I like is H/D really, and it’s an exception because the H/D pros (it’s the OTP!!!!) surpass the unforgivable crime of giving a messiah-type figure a love interest. Eh. That probably makes no sense, but I’ve already rambled too much.
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Date: 2004-05-11 08:52 pm (UTC)Wow, I love the idea that Draco angsts about whether his distant mother loves him-- I mean... he's always angsting this way and that about his father, but maybe his mother is too deep and personal for him to even talk about. That'd be something. Yeah... I think it's pretty obvious he doesn't feel loved, 'cause of all the overcompensating that's going on. Wah. Now I wanna snuggle him, which usually only happens with Harry ^^;
What I -really- want to see is someone writing the Malfoys as not over-the-top nutsy wackos, but as normal English people, y'know, with the emotional hang-ups and the stiff upper lip and all the layers of tragedy. People over-dramatize the Malfoys, don't they? It's all so much melodrama and sturm-und-drang, and I forget that supposedly, Lucius is a normal person with "issues" too, and he's prolly insecure in his own way. Ha! Whoa.
No one writes insecure-and-vicious!Lucius that I know of. It's so sad. And he'd have this sad, uncomfortable relationship with Narcissa, where he used to love her (in his own messed-up way) and now he can't talk to her-- 'course, he can't talk to anyone. So they don't touch when they sleep and sometimes he fucks her without any noise and she goes to the bathroom and cleans up afterwards. I'm a fan of the theory that Narcissa was close to Draco when he was a baby, but then Lucius snapped and took control of his development in some way 'cause their own marriage was falling apart and here was this little Malfoy that Lucius thought he could mold.
*sigh*
It'd almost be plausible if Draco didn't turn out to be such an insensitive little prat that they're all three of them kind of unsympathetic even in this scenario, somehow. It's like... he'd always ignored everything just like his parents did, on some level, and focused his energies outwards, buying into whatever his father fed him enough to keep up. He never -rebelled-, really, which makes it hard for me to empathize with that family situation. I think the rebellion and inner-focus and all is Harry's shtick, which is funny 'cause I don't write Harry as easily. Maybe I'm too close to him.
Draco was probably always the sort of boy who "dealt" with things by looking outward, ignoring what he couldn't deal with and ultra-focusing on the things he hated that he thought he -could- deal with. Like, maybe that's why he's -so- obsessed with Potter, 'cause he has so little control over some other things that upset him in life. Hmm.
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Date: 2004-05-11 09:06 pm (UTC)Somebody on my lj once said that the slap scene indicated real mother issues. He got angry and taunted Hermione because he was angry for his mother's inattention, but when she got mad and hit him he was all chastened and felt rejected and like a bad boy. It was so twisted, but it was the first interpretation of the slap I could really live with-this great idea that his mother could actually hurt him so much more than his father, that maybe his father was almost who he thought he was running to for help!
And to think people think the Durmstrang comment and the chocolates indicate he's just flat-out spoiled. Do they not know how twisted mothers can be??
Draco was probably always the sort of boy who "dealt" with things by looking outward, ignoring what he couldn't deal with and ultra-focusing on the things he hated that he thought he -could- deal with. Like, maybe that's why he's -so- obsessed with Potter, 'cause he has so little control over some other things that upset him in life. Hmm.
Oh, I totally get that feeling. Harry is *his,* whatever that means to him. Even if Harry refuses to admit it. Lucius' dismisses his obsession (Yes, you told me a million times already...) and Harry dismisses it as well, preferring to deal with Lucius instead. But I hold out hope that ignoring this little bundle of emotion just because he's a spaz is going to turn out to be a bad thing for both of them. :-)
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Date: 2004-05-13 01:13 am (UTC)My problem is, it's hard for me to just not read some things, when they really annoy me. I dunno why. I force myself to slog through all this stuff I kind of find offensive to my sensibilities, and I think I get resentful, though it's my own fault. Plus, it's hard for me to have the rationalization of "they're silly, let them enjoy themselves", 'cause I have such an immediate emotional response/connection that supercedes any intellectual one. So by the time I blink, I'm already annoyed ^^;
Neville doesn't bother me much 'cause he's easy to avoid if he bores you, heh. He's not very prominent in the H/D-fic circles which I haunt. Sure, some people -mention- Harry/Neville & Draco/Neville fic (AND WHY COULDN'T THEY PAIR HIM WITH SOMEONE ELSE, ANYWAY??!) but... eh. Lucius, on the other hand, is everywhere, y'know? Instead of just being a pairing I dislike, Lucius/Harry kinda inhabits similar turf to H/D, so. I growl more. Actually, lots of pairings annoy me-- but I usually get more upset if I think the characters themselves would be upset. Like... I think Lucius would be -awful- for Harry. It's just. Wrong in so many ways. Whereas like... Harry/Hermione, which I also can't stand, is just... wrong in a couple ways. Or something ^^;
I don't use a double-standard, quite, anyway. I reeeeally hate bad Draco characterization to the point where I don't read much HP fic anymore. Well, I don't really know -why- I don't, but it must have something to do with the fact that most of it is unsatisfying, I guess.
Though well, I do want to improve him, 'cause I think he does need to grow up and stuff. As does Harry. I want to improve Harry, too~:) But I want to improve Draco in so far as to give him more depth, seeing as he's mostly two-dimensional as far as canon goes-- he's pretty much JKR's little plaything, saying and doing what he needs to to fit the plot & Harry's needs most of the time. He's inconsistent and his emotional range isn't all that great, as it stands. That annoys me. Oh well. I like canon Draco but I wouldn't love him if I didn't think there was -more- that was possible.
Then again, you know, I think most characters in HP other than Harry are pretty two-dimensional and flat (someone flame me, flame me now). I -love- a number of them, but they're not wonders of complexity or anything, and Draco's just one step up from Dudley in terms of complexity. So yeah, it's not enough for me. What "completes" him is our own imagination, I think, but if you take that away... well... it's not too happy. This is probably why a lot of people hate him-- they just don't use their imagination, so it's easy. Then again, most people who love him don't use their imagination either (OH, HE'S SOOO HOT!!1)
The "zen with fandom"... I just don't think I'll ever achieve, I guess.
I know what you mean about the messiah figure pairing, heh-- I've heard it before. I just see Harry as -Harry-, most of the time, I guess, and -Harry- (figurehead status aside) really hates being alone. Wah. *cuddles him*
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Date: 2004-05-13 03:38 am (UTC)Ahah. I actually am the opposite. I’m not annoyed about the existence of bad fic, I just don't tead it. Or fic that I consider bad, or fic that has H/D OOC according to my standards. Yeah, okay, I am human so sometimes I snap, but that’s when I go out or rather down in the kitchen and eat some doritos or whatever. Doritos make the world go round! Eeeh.
The worst I felt was when I tried to read a very popular H/D “classic”, and the Harry characterisation made me roll my eyes for the amount of projection that was going on (or I felt was going on), while the Draco characterisation just saddened me as it’s prone to do when he’s brave and suave and protective and the truth-teller because it’s like canon Draco isn’t worth of attention, you have to fix him. Which is his problem in canon, too! It's like he's doomed to be discarded as not enough shiny.
Sometimes I get worried about these fics being so popular because they create fanon I’d do without but in the end… the best way to go about it is to just see that fic as something that makes someone else happy, so it becomes a good thing.
cause I have such an immediate emotional response/connection that supercedes any intellectual one. So by the time I blink, I'm already annoyed ^^;
Eh. See, I hate Neville and get impatient with the Snape white-washing for example. It’s not that I don’t have my idiosyncrasies too. But I don’t know… shouldn’t the annoyance go away when you realise it’s okay for other people to have their own fun? Maybe it’s the whole “they’re silly” mentality that doesn’t resonate with me because I don’t think people I don’t know are silly for enjoying sexgod Draco. You should try to see things in this light too, I think it’d spare you a lot of bad feelings. :)
He's not very prominent in the H/D-fic circles which I haunt. Sure, some people -mention- Harry/Neville & Draco/Neville fic (AND WHY COULDN'T THEY PAIR HIM WITH SOMEONE ELSE, ANYWAY??!)
I see Neville everywhere. I wrote a novel-length post about Neville here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sistermagpie/45644.html?thread=676684#t676684) so if you’re curious those are my feelings, and they are very much influenced by the fandom, too. But... eh. In my mind, Neville is a thing, and it’s not going to change because some people write him as a sex-god or whatnot (and fanon Neville exists too). Like Lucius! I told you, Lucius is a prude. No need to worry. He’d sleep with McGonagall before he shagged Harry.
I usually get more upset if I think the characters themselves would be upset. Like... I think Lucius would be -awful- for Harry. It's just. Wrong in so many ways. Whereas like... Harry/Hermione, which I also can't stand, is just... wrong in a couple ways. Or something ^^;
Well, you really don’t know if Harry would be upset. Harry is just… a work in progress, you know? He is potential, so I don’t think we should police people’s creativity with rules about what would make characters’s happy. I mean, I ship Harry/Dementors, so.
H/Hr is different. It bores the hell out of me and I can’t stand the “The hero gets the girl” philosophy behind it but as long as it’s a fanon thing, all green with me. It’s the possibility that it happens in canon that makes me want to scream. Ahaha, see, maybe I’m not so zen after all.
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Date: 2004-05-13 03:39 am (UTC)See, this is what I don’t get – if you feel he’s cardboard and flat, why are you interested in him? I personally find him a minor character with a more than satisfying subtext, considering his presence in the books. When I talk about growth I don’t mean more depth of character (as in the way he’s written) I mean personal growth, something that concerns him as a real boy in his universe. Well, that was convoluted. But. Anyway. I sort of don’t care about whatever leads JKR to write him as she does (also because, I can’t read her mind), I like the way he’s written. I think someone that you at least know is angry all the time, and envious, and scared, and childish, and petty… well, that’s quite human for me.
Oh, I make a lot of concessions to my principles when it comes to H/D, so… Harry doesn’t have to be alone. *throws subby Draco from PoA in his lap* (Not that Draco is typically something else. Eh.)
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Date: 2004-05-13 04:08 am (UTC)Okay, point one-- I'd read fanon before canon. I -hated- canon at first glance (read 10 pages of the first book and threw it against the wall). I liked the movies, though. And then I came across fanfic, whee! I make a habit of reading fanfic for shows/books I'm not familiar with, 'cause I guess I pick things up fast & also, most people don't write the most canon-heavy fanfic anyway.
I -have- read canon, of course (and love Harry a zillion times more because of it) but... at base, I'm not the sort of person who fixates on any sort of subtext. I may seem like it, I guess, 'cause I overanalyze everything, but I'm a lazy reader who takes things "as is" a lot of times. I don't -think- about some minor character, usually. I'm almost always all about the major pov characters and everyone else can go to hell. Er... well... it's just that they're the ones I -know- the best, and since I read by identifying and placing myself in the story most of the time, I end up bonding with the pov characters, see? I don't usually question the text.
In this case, fanon came first, so of course my Draco is never going to be content to be Harry's shadow villain or whatever. Buuuut... well, it's like... as a person, Draco annoys me. It's only by identifying with him that I can get over that-- by getting in his head and -becoming- him (while reading or writing). Seen from the outside, he seems shallow yet cute and somewhat brilliantly nasty to me (in flashes). I find him adorable sometimes and despicable other times (in canon), but mostly he's nearly incomprehensible, as in WTF IS HE THINKING?!
Also, I still have the thing that I don't much like JKR's writing itself or the way she characterizes anyone or anything even -as- I love her world and her plots and Harry & Ron & Draco & stuff. It's weird. Canon!Draco is like an outline in my head, a bunch of points of reference that I can only imagine a real boy out of by channeling him somehow. Mind you, there's so much fanon in my head that maybe the "real" Draco never had a chance, I dunno :>
And I think my level of irritation is related to overload on fandom and fic both, so this is why I took a "break"-- meaning, stopped reading fic or people's lj's. Heh. I have a hard time letting go, I guess, so when I to I just cut totally. I love sexgod!Draco sometimes, when he's human too (like wheee, in UL). What H/D -does- have in-character Harry -and- Draco? None, really. Heh. I just tend to rail against people and rant a lot 'cause I'm a spaz :>
I also am stubborn about the hypothetical happiness of the Harry in my head, not any specific fic's Harry, heh. Um. Ah yes, there -is- a Harry in my head. He'd be rather pissed if I left him to fend for himself with some Dementors. "NO MORE LIVE H/D SEX FOR YOUUU, REENA!!" hee.
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Date: 2004-05-13 08:05 pm (UTC)Hehehe there's something about you saying "disturbed and psychotic" that reminds me of some cross between the Brain (from Pinky & the Brain) & Dennis Miller. Go figure -.- *giggles* <3
Yeah... I guess aristocrat/politician type people generally always see their firstborn male sons as tools, and why should Lucius buck the trend. Draco prolly wouldn't be -that- obsessed with pleasing his father if his father wasn't -requiring- things of him as The Son who had functions to fulfill. Though to be contrary, Lucius doesn't seem to try -too- hard, since Draco does get away with a lot and he basically seems to do what he wants anyway, so hmm.
Ahahahah!! *chokes* that bit about Dudley being the overfed dog. *DEAD*
Cute... when he... savages... other... dogs..... *twitch* :D :D!!
The pedigree poodle view of Draco!!! THIS NEEDS A FIC!!! :D :D!! Er. But I definitely am with you so far >:D
*is slightly confused, but muchly amused*
You're right, though. Imagine Lucius with a well-bred racing dog. He'd do GREAT. DUUUUUUUDE!!1
I bet if he got one, Draco would be really jealous, 'cause y'know, soon Lucius would realize how trainable dogs are :> :>
Maybe that'd be a good stimulus to get him to let go of his obsession with pleasing his father. On the other hand, maybe that'll just mess him up more and he might kill the dog.
*coughs*
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Date: 2004-05-15 11:09 am (UTC)Eh, I don’t know, that’s the same for me, but I say I love canon Draco, not fanon. I mean, fanon has taken a slightly perverse meaning in the HP fandom anyway (others as well). Instead than being just a… statistical matter, a literary convention to isolate stuff that had become popular among the readers without any judgement of quality being passed, it’s become bad and cliché and contradicting canon. That’s why I talk about “fanon Draco” as the hot, suave, sexy stud all of Howgwarts secretly wants to shag. I’m just following the flow. But I don’t think that interpreting Draco in any way means 1) stepping out of canon 2) bad writing. I mean, these sources that you talk about that inform him, they’re inevitable, I think. Projection is inevitable.
I -have- read canon, of course (and love Harry a zillion times more because of it) but... at base, I'm not the sort of person who fixates on any sort of subtext. I may seem like it, I guess, 'cause I overanalyze everything, but I'm a lazy reader who takes things "as is" a lot of times.
The thing is that what’s “as is” for you is clearly different from what’s “as if” from me. If you take things at face value, that doesn’t rule out minor characters. You’d take minor characters at face value, but you’d still take them. If you dismiss Draco or Pansy or Zacharias Smith it’s a specific choice of yours. I also don’t think being the main character implies you’re the best written one. Actually this attitude bothers me because I think it accounts for the blackmail some lead-character fans put on fans of… other people. Like those who said if you didn’t like Buffy, why are you watching BTVS? Well, for the other characters.
I don't usually question the text.
But… you ship Harry/Draco. How’s that not questioning it? Your pull is subversion, maybe subversion from within, but still. If you took canon at face value you’d be shipping H/G, possibly. *g*
I love sexgod!Draco sometimes, when he's human too (like wheee, in UL).
Well, UL Draco is adult in a way I don’t think canon Draco will ever be, but he’s also not that big a sexgod. I mean, he’s shagged what, 5 people? I bet Pansy gets around more.
He'd be rather pissed if I left him to fend for himself with some Dementors.
Oh, the dementors would take good care of him. They’d watch in his soul, they’d smother him with kisses, and he’d swoon at them. Really, look, it’s canon.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-15 05:01 pm (UTC)I don't mean the main character is best written, I just mean there's the -most- written there so I kinda see the bulk by default. I'm like this with any ensemble-- and some people are -not- like this by default, too, I think. Maybe it's got to do with how one perceives oneself and groups. I'm a very closed-in, individualist sort of person who dislikes associating with many people and groups especially. I see people generally on a one-on-one basis, and I don't concern myself with many at a time unless forced to somehow. I don't tend to go out of my way to find people of interest to follow-- I'd rather not follow anyone at all-- just see what's in front of me-- it's bound to be interesting enough. Basically, I'm lazy ;>
I'm not a -fan-, really, y'know-- not of the main characters and not of the side characters, though I basically don't -care- about the obscure ones 'cause I barely know enough to care. A few characteristics isn't enough. It has to be... its own story. See, I don't know why I even write fanfic (about Draco!), it goes against my nature in some ways... I think I've just read enough fanfic-- and so much of it is -about- Draco... that it's not subverting the text so much as continuing and refining the tradition, for me. I'm writing as a part of a history of H/D fanfic writers. I'm in a sort of communication with them. My fics are a response to their fics moreso than to canon, even if I -use- canon to respond.
So, I mean. I'm not subverting the text personally-- I barely -care- about the text. My two/three beloved characters may be -based- in the text, but their true source these days is in my head. I could easily see myself writing a whole new world for my own Harry & Draco, if I could manage the tedium & hard work, y'know :>
I probably would be shipping H/G if I'd read the canon -first-, that's what I'm saying (though I'd prolly ship Harry/Cho or something... eh, I dunno, I don't ship anything-- I'm not a normal fan, I think, shipping isn't my thing outside of fanfic or the canon couples). I ship H/D because that's what I read first and then it because for other reasons. I mean... I have an instinctive attraction to it that's much greater than any attraction I have to any other HP pairing, but fact remains, I ship it 'cause it was -there- (in the fanfic I read). I read Durendal and Ivy and I was like, mmmmm hotness. That is why~:)