(grumpy again)

[reenka]

At first I thought that it's just that I'm closed-minded or something, 'cause even looking at fics with pairings that conflict with an OTP makes me sort of cringe and want to rail against the (stupid) pairing in question... but... it's just that most people, even when they write get-together fics, don't actually bother to try convincing the reader that these people -should- be together. I mean, there's a basic question there, isn't there? -Why-? Why should the reader want these people together? Why do all these (fanfic) writers assume that only shippers will read their fic? Or do they?

It occurs to me that maybe that's true, actually. Maybe most people write for a) an audience of people who just don't care about what pairing they read or b) an audience that is already sold on the pairing in question. Possibly, there's a third common type of fic-- as in, c) an audience of people who're crazed fans of one of the characters and will happily see them with anyone at all, no matter how "out of character" the pairing seems.

I don't know if a pairing -can- be OOC. Can it?

Plenty of people write characters to be OOC to the degree that I can't see these versions of these characters together, even if I normally ship them. In that case, I don't care whether I'm already "sold", the fic in question reverses that. I don't know if that's common, though. Do people often read fics with their OTP that make them stop rooting for it in that case? Happens to me all the time. I mean, I really think that once you give a character enough issues (narcissism, extreme depression, mania, psychosis, extreme immaturity, commitment issues, anxiety issues) it'd make a lot more sense to not write a successful romance there. As in, I doubt these versions would-- or should-- last past a month with anyone.

I don't know if most writers or readers -want- to always start from square one in terms of non-canon pairings, though I don't see how one could honestly get away with anything else in a good story, porn aside. I suppose one can't help but start with some assumptions... but taking huge unsubstantiated things for granted is just sheer laziness, isn't it? As in, well, of -course- Draco has always wanted to fuck Harry. Of course, yes. Naturally. Gah. Bad writer, no biscuit.

Comments

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's mostly my own appraisal also, though... I'm really a lot more unconvinced in fandoms where there aren't as many choices as there are in HP. Like... in HP there are tons of characters and a lot of holes in their characterization, so you can do a lot with them, right. But in some instances, canon can be quite specific on exactly who these people are, and there isn't as much lee-way, I guess. I didn't want to bring up other fandoms 'cause I guess people wouldn't be familiar with them, but I do think that HP is unique in the sheer number of semi-plausible possibilities. I don't think that's always the case. I think maybe theoretically, if enough about a character is "written in stone", so to speak, you could have them be simply incompatible with another character.

For instance, even in HP... while you -can- write a story that puts Hermione and Draco together, for instance, you can never write a story where it's easy for Draco, where he's "just attracted". The Mudblood thing is just such a huge stumbling block that it can't help but define their relationship. I think it's possible, maybe, that the -type- of relationship you put two characters in could be OOC. Like... they can "just fuck" but they can't finish each other's sentences and go bar-hopping together or... whatever.

And of course, yes, in the end it comes down to the writing being convincing, that's what I was initially saying. That I find most writers don't bother to convince me and seem to expect their readership to be shippers, maybe. I know I -can- be convinced, but that seems to be a rare gift. Most people write without their own passion and/or belief in the characters shining through, so fics seem limp to me. I mean, I don't think "good writing" merely means the language itself-- there's also the convictions and ideas behind it all. They have to be... worked for. I suppose my own idea of what constitutes "enough" work is just more extreme than a lot of other readers, is all :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

For instance, even in HP... while you -can- write a story that puts Hermione and Draco together, for instance, you can never write a story where it's easy for Draco, where he's "just attracted". The Mudblood thing is just such a huge stumbling block that it can't help but define their relationship.

I know this sounds ridiculous but...what if it can? I mean, I'm kind of fascinated by exactly why I get drawn to certain pairings while I don't want to see other ones, how I can deal with one character sleeping with a number of characters but never want to see another character with anyone but this one person.

There's plenty of stories where I don't believe the pairing or they've strayed so much from the characterizations I like that I don't want to read it--I mean strayed from whatever core thing I think lies at the heart of the character. I don't like fics where the dynamic makes one of the characters look stupid or whatever.

But otoh I'm pretty adept at just going with premises that should be ridiculous because it doesn't jar me for whatever reason. So my point is if we can believe somebody could write a fic that can make Draco and Hermione believeable, couldn't somebody write a fic where this wasn't the stumbling block in their relationship? I mean, either because the person just concentrates on different things or because in their mind this is the way it would work? I mean, if this person believed Draco's bark was worse than his bite on this issue and Hermione always just thought it was stupid?

I'm not saying this is how I'd see it, but can we really assume anything about a character that we know so little about? I mean, yeah, you could say that we don't know much about Malfoy but in pretty much every scene he's spouting racist rhetoric, but once you put in backstory anything goes. So how can any canon interpretation be set in stone?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, see... that's why I'm so hesitant to really use examples from HP at all, 'cause I can't think of an entirely defensible example even though I'm sure there must be -something-, y'know, something silly and obvious like... well, if you write incest, you can't be like, "oh, Draco is in luuuurve with his father". 'Cause. Duuuuude. But that's just a stupid example that would show that I'm grasping for straws~:)

I don't know if you can ever say someone's characterization in canon is "cast in stone"... but there -are- central pillars, I think, hopefully, that define who they are. I mean, if there -aren't-, then... who are they, you know? In real life, it's hard to pin down who a person is regardless of circumstance (that is, they're usually one way in one situation and another way in another). But in fiction, people tend to be a lot more tractable 'cause we can trace their actual motivations better.

In HP, a lot of characters' motivations are either badly characterized or cliche or unknown and have to be inferred, 'cause it's so pov-centric, of course. And any story where something is told to you straight out is pretty much a bad story, anyway. But... hmm... well, yes, backstory. It's the difference between taking canon "as is" and adding backstory, basically giving the reader road-marks as to where you've taken this characterization off course.

It's not so much that I refuse to accept certain things, it's just that I refuse to take them as -givens-. And my idea of 'working for it' is possibly too strict if I'm not predisposed to the pairing. I mean, I give my OTP fics breaks I wouldn't give other pairings. In fact, I start off not -wanting- to buy those other fics. Which is where that whole "are the writers writing for shippers" thing came from. Maybe I'm just not -supposed- to like reading those fics, y'know?

We can assume -some- things, some small basic things. The less we assume, the better the fic is, I think. If the writer wants to set up the whole Mudblood relationship in Draco's head from scratch, more power to 'em!! I'd love that. On the other hand, if they -assume- that Draco just doesn't care and run with it... then I put on the major breaks, 'cause the most plausible things from canon make it obvious on a common sense level, basically.

I mean, that's all I want to see, really. Common sense. Maybe that just doesn't apply to pairings or why people write fic, I dunno.

Common sense says to me that... uh... lessee... Harry/Filch-Sirius-Remus-or-any-older-person, Draco/McGonnagal-etc, Draco/most-people-who-aren't-fellow-Slytherins-- are all iffy. Very iffy. The default setting on these pairings is "hahahah not in a million fucking years". So... I mean... that default... should be acknowledged, shouldn't it? As in, "plausibility: below 30%", I'd guess. I think H/D plausibility without major canon reworking is like... uh... 15% is generous. And I -love- that pairing with a burning love. But still!

It's not so much that it's written in stone as... "no" being the simpler solution. I suppose it's a semi-blind study of likelihoods based on incomplete data, where one looks for the overall most common pattern when specifics are unavailable. Like, the most common overall sexual behavior pattern for young males is heterosexual with homosocial tendencies, for instance. Unless you work to establish that the male deviates from the norm (thus supplementing canon), you can assume that the canon stance is at default. Or something. It's much less linear and more intuition-related than that of course, to me.

Like, while specific behaviors or thoughts may be in question, usually one has a -direction- for characters, a sort of... "pitch" you can expect for them to usually be. So even if Draco isn't as racist-obsessive as all that, he's still gonna act like it, or whatever, 'cause he's stubborn and rigid in behavior if nothing else. *sigh* People rail against stereotypes, but I think there's something to be said for "acting true to type", 'cause "type" is what saves you when you wobble on specifics in characterization, I guess. Type is what allows you to generalize and predict behavior, 'cause in the end, while people do change, I think they change predictably, I guess.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's the thing...even on something as obvious as the Pureblood issue we have no idea how the logic of it actually works in the Malfoy's heads so there's a lot of ways you can play it.

It's not so much that it's written in stone as... "no" being the simpler solution. I suppose it's a semi-blind study of likelihoods based on incomplete data, where one looks for the overall most common pattern when specifics are unavailable. Like, the most common overall sexual behavior pattern for young males is heterosexual with homosocial tendencies, for instance. Unless you work to establish that the male deviates from the norm (thus supplementing canon), you can assume that the canon stance is at default. Or something. It's much less linear and more intuition-related than that of course, to me.


Yeah, but then otoh, isn't fanfic all about "What ifs?" Like, would it be possible to do a version of Draco where the Malfoys were brought up with the attitudes of the Weasleys? Strictly speaking, it should be possible, because ones beliefs don't define ones personality completely. Presumably Draco could still be Draco, still maybe be snobbish or elitist, or brattish, only he wouldn't have the particular Mudblood angle. Or what if he were the poor one and Ron was rich? He might still be racist and elitist but scrappier and dressed in old clothes and bitter about that.

It's sort of...artichoke like, I guess. You peel away all these layers to get to the heart and you don't know when you've hit it until you take away something and it's just "not him" anymore. So like, for me, I could read a fic where Draco was poor and still Draco, but I might read another fic where he was rich, racist and snobby but he wouldn't be Draco because he was...I dunno...not a fighter.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Wehehe, well, I uh... don't think I can ever really pretend I know what makes someone "someone", of course. Maybe that's why examples suck? 'Cause unless I point to a specific instance where something happened and it wasn't Draco anymore... and even then, it could just have been a bad story. So I see how that gets difficult. See, in my mind, racism or whatever was never important in my conception of him anyway-- I've never really applied it. On the other hand, I was never in a situation where it was important. And while you can willfully avoid it somehow, see, you're kind of showing its importance by trying to eliminate it from play. Which is all I was saying-- the need for this acknowledgement.

I mean... eh, we agree, I think. It was just hard to rant about what I really wanted to, since it was in Gundam Wing and I don't know the canon enough to rant about that. Though... I still hate it when people are all buddy-buddy for no good reason and like, go up to each other after not being that close and going "hey, I'm bored and lonely, come live with me"(!!!!!1)
Yeah, that got my goat :>