~~ Join Us! The starving elite!

[reenka]

I'm having an interesting moral dilemma recently that I can't seem to crack by myself.

I found a site, Juxtaposefantasy.net, which is basically decent original slash fiction in several different fantasy-type universes-- as a paid, subscription service. $9.99 a month, no less. The writer updates one of the story universes once a week, etc etc.

My first reaction to this was horror-- paying for slash?? Please! Who does she think she is?! ...That was also my second and third reaction.

And then I read some of the teaser chapters, and was hooked. I'm a sucker for suspense things-- which is why I try to avoid suspense fiction and don't mind spoilers. I don't -seek out- spoilers, but I'm one of those people who hates that awful itch of having to know that seems to please most people. It just... bothers me. I know most people get off on it... and I do like the small adrenaline rush, I guess. But I'm too prone to compulsive, addictive behaviors already, I think, and suspense fics just make it too much for me to take and I overload. I realize most well-written fic is in the suspense category if it's a WIP, come to think of it, so I've been reading almost exclusively that for awhile now. Hmm. Maybe it's worse if the actual content is a thriller also. Er... but that's a complete tangent.

Anyway, I paid the money, but now I feel horribly dirty and uncomfortable with myself. It raises all sorts of awkward questions, this discomfort.


So why is my instinctive response that this self-publishing is somehow "bad"? How is self-publishing on the net "bad"? Why am I so instinctively drawn to mainstream publishing, considering that it rips off artists and doesn't exactly reward quality? Isn't what this writer is doing what most of us would want to do, that is, writing what she loves and getting both an interactive, vocal readership and a means to support herself meanwhile?

Well, first of all, I think the price is a complete rip-off. Second of all, she's just... not -that- good. And I realize that sounds kind of elitist or whatever, but I do have this old-fashioned feeling (completely out of touch with reality as it is) that you should be brilliant to get to be published. You should be -better- than the rest of us somehow. And this person doesn't even seem to have a beta who'd catch some basic grammar errors. So there's that.

This elitist thing is why people say "I'm a published author" while puffing out their chest and looking down their noses, right? Even though... well... most "published authors" suck in a bad way, and "best-sellers" are usually so far from "literature" as to be from another literary planet altogether. A part of me also thinks that as difficult as it would be to write oodles of fic while having a full-time non-writing job, that's just one of the trials of being a writer.

You're -supposed- to starve, stay up all night writing while you slave away at the McFast-Food-Joint all day and/or try to finish grad school or whatever, have no social life, and shut yourself into a small room with only coffee and/or Mountain Dew for company. That's how it works, isn't it? That's the glory of it, isn't it? Then, at the end, the truly great (and high-stamina) among us will cross the finish-line as True Writers, and all the famous publishing houses will take one look at the final manuscript and swoon. Just-- swoon away; either that, or thus begins the equally arduous process of sending in the damn thing to everyone and their brother until -someone-, someday, takes pity on you. That being another Test Of Your Glory And Dedication To The Cause. And/or you get your big break having your most throw-away, casually written fic published in Amazing Stories (okay, now I'm stuck in the 40s, but whatever).

That's how I want it to be, even if it's clearly just a pipe-dream.

So. Do you guys think it's a rip-off? Would you do this if you could? Would you then charge by the year instead of by the month? Would you just not charge as much? I'm really stumped, and also curious.

...I suppose all this goes a ways to explain why I still haven't even attempted to be published, huh :> Besides the whole "my original fic is (generally unfinished) crap" thing -.-

Comments

[chinae.livejournal.com]

Is it original fic?

Because if it is and she is charging people I think that's okay. As to whether she's a good writer or a bad writer, hey a lot of people read Harlequin Romance books, everyone has different tastes and how one defines a writer, that is also a personal opinion.

Yeah, I agree, some of us work hard and we do take our writing seriously but others unfortunately don't and there is really not that much we can do about it.

Have to go, Survivor started.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Whether it's a ripoff or not hardly makes it a moral question! She's offering a commodity. Her target market can decide whether or not they want to buy it. The beautiful laws of economics will determine whether she can keep it up at that or any price.

Internet publishing isn't any weirder than vanity presses, anyway.

[thegraybook.livejournal.com]

1) It's not paying for slash - there's no such thing as original slash. Slash denotes a subversion of text: the pairing of two characters not together in the original source material and is, I thought, a fanfic-specific term. This is paying for fiction featuring gay characters, which is no different than paying for fiction featuring straight characters.

2) I don't know why it bothers you so - you seem to be disturbed that she's gotten "published", but she hasn't gotten published, not by any definition of the word that I know. She's simply put her stories up on the web and is charging people money to read them - I don't know of any law that might prevent her from doing so, but certainly what she's doing doesn't bear the imprimatur of "official acceptance" that being actually published does, so it's hardly a marker of quality.

3) As you stated, actual publication isn't necessarily a marker of quality either - it's a marker of marketability. Some editor out there thinks people will buy this book for whatever reason. Awards are for quality. Publication isn't. :> I suppose you're saying it shouldn't be that way, but it's a for-profit business, publishing, innit? And whether the fiction on juxtapose is any good or not, she got you to shell out money, didn't she? She must be doing something right. :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not the rip-off aspect that's the moral question, it's the me-having-paid-for-it and then feeling dirty, like I've broken one of my own moral codes, that makes it feel like a moral question. To me, anyway, even if it isn't to anyone else, y'know?

Hmm, and yeah, I know that in practice it doesn't matter whether it's a ripoff, but in theory I was just wondering what would be a "fair" price, heh, just so I myself could feel better about it, mostly. I don't want to be the "target market", that's basically all :>

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Even being a published author doesn't guarantee that you'll make money. How often do you see people browsing in the poetry sections of bookstores, for example. Harlequin novels are a dime a dozen but how many people could tell you names of the authors that write them? I'm honestly not certain what the difference is between self-publishing like this and paying $7 for Tanya Huff or Fiona Patton or queer lit beyond the completely incredible price. There'd better be a LOT of words -- like the amount of words that would go into a newspaper or monthly magazine -- for it to be worth that price. (I think it's a rip-off, but not because I'm an elitist, but because that's essentially paying PER MONTH more than you'd pay for a paperback novel.)

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Well, you like slash and bemoan the lack of it in published literature, don't you? Me too, unashamedly, so yeah, we're the target market.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I agree with Cassie that it's not slash unless it's fanfic--and I do think that trying to sell that is uncool, because you're making money off of someone else's work. (Though oddly, I don't know if I'd feel that way about original fanart...but since the author isn't an artist maybe that's okay?)

The thing about the Internet and fanfic that's kind of interesting is that it gets publishing back to its most basic elements, I think. Somebody starts telling a story in a big room and if people want to hear more, they listen.

I think in the past vanity publishing was not the same as it is now. Didn't, like DH Lawrence self-publish, for instance? It was not always about not being of the correct quality. So I guess the question is what exactly does it mean to be published? Because things that are published aren't always that good, and sometimes they're even re-written by editors. Still I do understand that gut reaction about saying, "I'm published," meaning something. It does mean something, and sometimes that something is connected to writing quality, but sometimes it's more just about being a professional. That way I guess it's like any art--for instance, someone can be a wonderful actor who never gets cast, but what the lesser actor who does get cast has is a knowledge about "the business" which is part of it too. Like I know as an editor some of the worst people to deal with are the people who claim they are professionals but are really amateurs. Even if they're published somewhere, they're like professional amateurs. Usually that means they make ridiculous demands they claim are the due of "professional writers."

I think I just wandered off-topic. Um, yeah. So I guess the question is why do *you* feel dirty about this--is it that you feel like you're endorsing bad writing? Because it seems like if you were blown away by this person's writing you'd think you were doing something noble. Or I would, maybe.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee! As usual, Sister Magpie explains it all~:) Whew! Yeah, that's it. I think I feel dirty because I don't really appreciate the writing (even though, you know, I'm "supporting" it and reading), and that's just... wrong to me. Though, I mean, I wouldn't mind so much buying an actual book I don't think is great, this seems... more icky 'cause like... I'm going out of my way, or something? I dunno. But it does feel different 'cause I have a thing against paying for anything online, forget -writing-, which is the basic online commodity. So yeah, I mean... it's a quality thing.

Actually, I'd be surprised if it was -that- great, 'cause then I'd really wonder why the person isn't published, ahahah. It's a catch-42, in that I'm pretty sure they -would- be. But. Yeah... if I was blown away.... yeah. Yeah.

Also, the thing about professionalism... that also really clicked in my head. 'Cause the whole site... y'know... besides everything else, what gets on my nerves about it is that it just looks so unprofessional-- the design, even, is sloppy. With all that money coming in, you'd think someone would do a better job for her-- for free, even. Jeez. (Although now I feel shallow, ahahah.)

Yeah, there's a lack of professionalism about the whole shebang. *feels reassured* Like, I don't wanna pay amateurs money, maybe that's also it?? Heh.

You know... now I sort of feel more like I should try to get into the industry more, not 'cause my writing is Good Enough but just because it's an industry and I don't like being an amateur, or something. Heh.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yeah. Maybe it's just that I always place quality above everything, and I feel somewhat... used, I think, 'cause I think I read it in large degree -because- it is slash and not because it's -good-. Like, I don't think I'd read it if it wasn't m/m. I went through a phase where I bought every published fantasy/sci-fi m/m book I knew of or could find, but the truth is... most of these, I didn't find readable, so I didn't read them. They're still languishing along with the rest of the books I'll get to... someday. When I'm really bored.

So I dunno. I want more slash and/or m/m fic, yeah, but what I -really- want is more good-quality m/m fic I don't feel is appealing to my lowest-common-denominator impulses, I guess. *sigh*

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I can't relate on the whole "bad" issue. I actually would love to see more people self-publishing. It seems similar to me to independent musical artists producing their own work instead of going after the traditional goal of getting signed by a record label. The publishing houses are likely just as corrupt as the record labels, and I don't have the romantic vision of it that you do. Working outside the system is no clear indication of talent, but neither is getting signed by a record label, as I'm sure we can all agree. There are pros and cons to each path... the independent writer/musician has more control over what they produce and is in a position to offer works that might be great, or at least good without having to crawl to someone else who will end up taking most of the profits anyway. On the other hand, they can never hope to achieve the same potential distribution as someone who is backed by a corporation, and they certainly don't have access to the same resources (like real editors). Anyone going either the self-publishing or independent artist route knows what they are getting into, and has made these decisions for him/herself.

As for starving, etc... if the self-publishing world at all resembles the independent music world (which is the one I'm personally familiar with), there is just as much starving involved, and it goes on a lot longer, since the artist is footing all their own costs with much less hope of return. Nobody's quitting their day job, unless they are Ani Difranco. Y'know?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I guess that's a lot of it. I really have a lot of resentment stored up for the outrageous prices they charge for books these days, and this is just going one step further, 'cause I'm getting semi-decent-semi-crap (which I'd say about most of the mass-market fantasy I see), but now I'm not even getting the dubious pleasure of a permanent medium to browse it now and come back to if I wanted.

I'm not that much of a price-conscious person, generally, but I think I just feel... wrong, 'cause I don't want to support this sort of thing (paying for things I don't think are worth the money)... and yet I did. I mean, I can't -blame- anyone, exactly, and yet I feel coerced. Oh man.

But no, there's definitely not a newspaper's worth. And even then, most monthly anthologies are half that :/

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's original fic. *sigh* I wasn't implying it wasn't okay to charge, as in... I wasn't saying she was doing a Bad Bad Thing or anything, just that... I wasn't sure why it left a bad taste in my mouth anyway. And well, opinion it may be, but I suppose I'm too much of an English major to be completely democratic about the whole quality discrimination thing :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heeee! Y'know, that icon does look like you~:)
Er. But yeah, I only called it slash 'cause that's what -she- calls it. Well, interchangeably with "yaoi". *sigh* It's actually not "gay fiction" if you go by what sort of gay fiction is out there and what sort of slash/yaoi (fan)fiction is out there. I mean, in terms of story elements, character types, that sort of thing. It's very much modified fanfic. Or something. Heh. To my eyes, anyway.

Yeah, I also know it's not -really- publishing, but what else to call it? The whole thing kind of confuses me 'cause it lives in some sort of new half-zone of different media, maybe? Er. I guess... mostly I'm disturbed that she's getting away with this, that it's this easy, and that I'm helping it make it this easy. Like, I feel like it -shouldn't- be this easy. Like... certain things do get edited out if it's published officially-- like, at least you don't get grammar errors this much and the cover is semi-decent to look at-- and I suppose I feel that makes it more palatable to me.

Like, maybe it's just that I don't think this is marketable stuff, and yet it -is-, on the web. I often get upset at the low level of quality in published fiction that gets sold and is popular, but this is like, a new low or something. Maybe that's it :>

And me-- I'm part of the problem, in that case ^^;

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

D00d, I'm with Cassie and sistermagpie. Writers need more money, period. If she writes something and you want to buy it, what on earth is the problem?

Pretty much everything I do in life involves writing, some of which I get paid very well for, and some of which I don't get paid for at all. My only complaint is that I don't get paid for ALL OF IT. Would I cry if all of a sudden academic journals started paying their contributors? Are you kidding?

Writers don't need to suffer in order to be writers. No more than dentists do.

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

This was perfectly stated, in my opinion.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Okay, I tried to go over and look at the stories and my eyes glazed over.

But you know, other fanfic writers do this as well. Like there's some zine ... MAS, or something like that? It's on CD. I don't know if contributors get paid, but Juxian Tang has written original fiction for that. (And I **love** her original fiction, btw.) And I think somebody was suggesting that Aja put together a chapbook of original stories with other writers, which I found a really intriguing idea.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well... this person -did- quit her day job, heh. So that she could bring her readers the wondrous cornucopia of fic that she produces. That's why I went on that whole "starving" tangent, 'cause I meant I know it's hard to get the same amount of stuff written if you work most of the day, but them's the breaks, or something. 'Cause yeah, she does it full-time, she says, and... I feel like I'm supporting that, and I don't want to be, and maybe I shouldn't have ever paid, but I really wanted to see what happened and I feel like I was duped or something. Even though I can't blame anyone and it's not -that- bad.

I don't have a thing against self-publishing, man, as long as it's quality. Like... some of my favorite comics are self-published. That's totally cool. I do have a romantic vision in terms of novel-writing, but that's not an issue if the independent product blows my mind. If something is mediocre-yet-pro, I feel like... well, most things out there are crap, no biggie. But I feel like... maybe I just set higher standards for independent stuff, I guess?

Like, the indie comics I know are the best of the best, some of the best stuff being done. For a long while, they were miles ahead of the rest, and the pro comics industry had to hurry to catch up. So there's actually prestige there that was pioneered by some awesome titles in the late 80s and 90s. And music-- a lot of great stuff gets self-published, like Ani DiFranco, for one.

But novels/fic... maybe it's just that the publishing houses are these overwhelming behemoths or maybe... I don't know, but I've never seen a shred of real quality in any self-publishing venture unless it was poetry, supported by a university somehow, or written by a previously published and/or semi-famous author.

It's just... different in fiction, in my experience, though I admit my experience is limited. But I just wanted to say that while I do have some pipe-dreams I admit to being such, I don't have a prejudice against self-publishing per se, quite the opposite. Just a prejudice against paying for sutff I feel doesn't deserve my patronage. Which... well... I have no one to blame for, but if it's printed, I guess I could browse more, y'know, whereas here I was teased and there was no way to read more. Or something

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think mostly it's that I never actually -wanted- to pay for it, see. I paid for it against my better judgement and against my sense of what deserves my money. I easily buy all sorts of unnecessary things which aren't fiction without a twinge, but if it's fiction, I go through this whole "but is it -worth- it" argument with myself each time, mostly 'cause of the prices. If books were $2.50, I wouldn't make a murmur. But they're not, are they? And considering I read copious amounts of stuff, I'm constantly being milked for money I don't have, since I barely even have a job, but I'm an addict, y'know? So the people asking for money are my dealers, and here I am, paying for the bad dope or something 'cause I'm just that much of a loser with no life who can't stop the craving for more.

I think the whole bit with the suffering was more tongue-in-cheek than probably came across, and detracted from my point (if indeed I had one) which wasn't dependent on that. I don't think writers need to suffer-- that anyone needs to suffer, really. Okay, well, some bad writers, they should suffer in the sort of way that'd make 'em better, if such a way exists. Anyway, I think fresh, green writers need to get their butts kicked by -somebody-, and this writer isn't getting her butt kicked at all, and is in fact being encouraged.

I realize this happens across the board with plenty of writers who're of "eh" quality getting plenty of money, but usually I don't -buy- their books, see, I read 'em at the library or skim them wholesale at the bookstore, 'cause yeah, I'm one of those people who'd sit at the bookstore for hours, reading whole huge chunks out of a book and skimming like mad.

Now, this is definitely skim-or-borrow material and I feel wrong and dirty 'cause I don't like buying that sort of thing. In fact, I just hate it, I guess. I do want to support writers but I have no money so I can't be the one to support 'em and I want to read anyway, 'cause I'm a compulsive reader and libraries are my best friend~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm all for self-publishing especially if it's a) good & b) on some kept media like CD or it's actually printed. I'd love to be in some anthology of some sort-- any sort, really. Like, I really liked having stuff printed in my school journal. That's fun.

But it's different. This is different, 'cause it's web-only and because it's (overly high) subscription and because it's rather bad~:) And mostly, I just feel stupid, I think -.-

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't feel stupid. We all get addicted to things we don't have much respect for. Like fanfic ... ;)

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

Hell, if she was honestly able to quit her day job, then I'm impressed, though I can't imagine her rent is very high. Maybe she lives with her folks. Heh. Seriously, if I thought it was possible for me to leave my crappy job and write all day and get people to PAY me for it, you can bet that's what I'd be doing. Maybe she's making all her money writing erotic stories and selling them on the internet, while writing her masterpiece on the side- who knows?

As for self-publishing ventures... I haven't seen many of them, period, though I bought Wil Wheaton's Dancing Barefoot and I love it to pieces. I think the key to this really may be that most of us really haven't seen most self-publishing ventures, simply because that's the whole downside to it in the first place... people don't find out about it.

The great thing about the new surge in both independent music and now in self-publishing is that anyone can do it. The downside... anyone can do it. This means the reader/listener/whatever who decides to check it out has to make real choices instead of being told what to buy by whoever has the biggest marketing budget. As readers we have to take responsibility for what we pay for. I'm not at all judging you for paying for this stuff, but... well, you knew it wasn't great before you paid, right? :) That's my point. I get you kicking yourself for getting sucked in, but I still applaud her efforts to support herself by doing something she enjoys. I certainly wish I could say the same about myself.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Pretty much everything I do in life involves writing, some of which I get paid very well for, and some of which I don't get paid for at all. My only complaint is that I don't get paid for ALL OF IT. Would I cry if all of a sudden academic journals started paying their contributors? Are you kidding?

Yeah, I wonder if that changes the way you look at things. I'm the same way in that pretty much all my money comes from writing in different ways. So for me it's not a difference of having a job during the day and then coming back to write, it's more like, "What am I writing now?" And yes, there's still a big difference between writing the story for the mag during the day and sitting down at my computer at night to try to write something original, but maybe it's a different kind of a leap than for someone whose day job involves something else?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Well, sometimes complete amateurs can act like professionals as well. I think a lot of professionalism is just common sense--you see the big picture, get what the publisher or whoever is trying to do for you and work with them. Amateurs who call themselves professionals tend to have a big sense of entitlement and are really into playing the role of the writer where their work is sacred instead of a product. And they're always telling you they're a writer, and usually assuming that you can't understand what that is because you're just...whatever you are. I think they don't get that being a professional is really not that different from being an amateur--people don't just start paying you to write or giving you expense accounts. You usually just still write yourself and then try to sell it.

[weatherby.livejournal.com]

Er... but a lot of 'web-only' things ask you to pay. Sites with porn stories, for instance, and a lot of novels that are published online only allow you to read the first few chapters without paying to read the rest. You can download pdf files of novels off of Amazon, even, and you still have to pay for that. LJ is web-only, as well, and people pay for that. I agree that her price is ridiculous, but I don't think charging is.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ah. Product.
Y'know, that doesn't even occur to me, though I have to say I've never thought my work was "sacred", ahahahah. *coughs*
That kinda cracks me up. "Worship me!!!"

Well, I don't feel my work is a product, either. Er. If I had a relationship with my writing... er... hmm. Dunno. What would it be? I get attached to it, but that attachment isn't constant-- usually it fades right after I've finished it, and if it doesn't, generally... that just means I haven't finished it and I want to, but something's stopping me. Like a lack of discipline. ^^;

Um. I don't know if I -care- about "selling it", but then, I don't really care about money unless I'm the one paying it. In terms of asking for money, I'm like, eh??? I'm neither the professional (who is willing to, what, compromise their artistic integrity for it?) or like the amateur (who'd insist on it above all things, and would also want more money). I'm... I'm just someone who doesn't have a clue, I guess.

To me, "integrity" means doing the best job I can, which is what the person at juxtapose.com is lacking (but then, so is most of the industry). Since I personally don't feel I can make someone's purchase of my work worthwhile, I don't try to sell anything. Is that professional or amateur behavior?? Or is that just me being a wimp who has lame excuses for things?? Heh.

I suppose I just don't care about it one way or the other, though this is prolly because I don't really support myself at this point. *sigh* Even if I did, I doubt I'd start demanding outrageous sums no matter how desperate my straits were, just 'cause that's wrong, especially for an artist. Like, if you're a carpet cleaner, sure, go ahead, be a ruthless capitalist, but it's just -sad- if you're a writer. But that's just me.

As far as whether I can see myself having the "sell-out" attitude of "gimme work and I'll do it" or whatever.... I dunno. I'm so inspiration-driven, it'd prolly be difficult to write on demand, especially if the subject-matter bored me. 'Cause being bored by being creative is clearly the ultimate sin, heh. But if I can stomach it, sure. Especially if it's fun. It's all about the fun, in the end.

Maybe I'm just too immature to even be an amateur -.- hee. Having fun, though~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... yeah, I guess you're right~:) *laughs* Maybe I'm just having sour grapes or something :> I usually do have those :D

I knew it wasn't great, but... well, I guess I have the user mentality that's been proliferating in the Information Age right along with the self-publishing boom. I feel I should get -extensive-, very very extensive testing before I buy. Like... I download mp3s like mad and I'm not ashamed if it's a highly-paid rock artist on an independent, especially if it's not great. If it -is- great, and I've listened to it a few times, -then- I'll get the cd (and even then I'll try to use half.com 'cause cds are a rip-off from hell these days). I dunno how this applies to fiction as much 'cause you can't "test-drive" it as much and it doesn't have the same replay value. Especially with this sort of material, I realize that you pretty much read it once and that's it.

*sigh*

So yeah, I applaud the effort and the fact that it's -possible- to do this now, but I still... I still have this established relationship to pulp (throw-away) fiction that... a) it's not worth paying for & b) if it does have a price-tag, it should be really cheap. Like... y'know, pulp fiction was initially called "pulp" because it -came- so cheap, on cheap paper, chepaly printed. So it was okay to throw away a dollar or two or three on it, to get pulled in by the flashy colors.

Whereas this is different. This is pulp that is more expensive than some professionally published thick paperbacks, y'know? And there's not that much material there.

So that's why my actual question in this post was actually "would you charge this much?" which actually, no one answered. Because I wasn't saying it wasn't worth -any- money, but I wouldn't feel so bad if it wasn't such a disproportionate amount. While I feel self-publishing ventures like this are admirable, this is just taking it all way too far, in my mind.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I know, and I hate paying for those web-only things every. Single. Time. :>
But lj was a reasonable price ($5 and I never paid again), streamload is a reasonable price at $5, considering it's a bandwith and storage service-- and those are the only web things I've even considered paying for in like, what... 8 years now.

And I have this whole -thing- about money & fiction & how much I'm willing to give & so on.
And my point was the amount, I was never saying that I had an issue with the charging at all. My actual question was would you guys charge, and if so how much, etc.

So what I -was- wondering about was amount, actually, since I really wouldn't feel bad if it was, oh, $2.50 for half a year or even $10 a year or something.

And generally, I'd avoid any for-pay sites like the plague. So I feel pretty stupid about this. But yeah, the charging thing-- I'm not -that- communist. I accept that charging for products (online or not) is okay-- just... whether I feel -I'd- ever pay is a different story. :>

[winters-end.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm with spare_change that if you're enjoying it, and you can afford it, then why not? I mean, what does plunking your money down on her site do? it...

-encourages her to write more

she likes writing, you like reading it...you're telling her that you like her writing, and you're investing in getting more of such writing with every dollar you spend. It's a good exchange.

-proves there is a market for the thing(s) you like

Maybe it's a small market, but it is there. Capitalism and paying money are just a way of voting. Your dollars are going towards proving gay origfic is an untapped market.


I do think that your mixed reaction to thinking of her as published has some merit - I agree with epicyclical that she isn't published by any practical definition of the word (though lots of publishing houses do consider any fiction posted to the web to be "published," regardless of whther or not it was free - but that's purely because people can get it elsewhere and it's therefore competition). But there is the valid point that when she sends off an original work to a publisher (assuming she's doing un-web-published stuff on the side) she gets to say in her cover letter "and look at me! I already have X fans who are spending Y dollars a month on my fic! People will pay for my stuff!" Which is non-negligible and likely to earn her notice as well as her genre.

I guess I wouldn't say she's published, but if she's getting paid she is a "professional." Anyways, here are the downsides I see -

If the author loses interest, you could end up paying for an incomplete story

Which would suck. I will say, especially if the site is poorly maintained it implies that this is an in-between and not a career. Watch the site and see if it cleans up in the coming months - that'll be a good indication of how dedicated she is to it, because better presentation will likely earn her more readers. That is one good thing about the paper-published world: when you pull a book off the shelf you know you're paying for a completed story and not just supporting someone's crack habit while they string you along using cliffhangers and suspense. Considering that the average completed paperback costs $6-$8 these days, you might want to evaluate how much more you're willing to pay for less mainstream stuff.

You're voting for a genre you like, but you're also encouraging writers on the net to jealously guard even their so-so fics

When you say you'll pay for fiction on the web, you're saying you'll pay for fiction on the web. There are, of course, plenty of sites that do this already (I have a friend "published" at EroticStories.com), but when you pay you do discourage the next guy from doing it for free. So I will say I understand the conflict there. It's taking a free medium and turning it into one you have to buy into. Which, well, you can say that thus far the net has been a free ride and it shouldn't be, but...doesn't mean it's a conversion you'd like to be voting for with your hard-earned money.


So I guess my point is, yeah sure there are all sorts of moral implications and meta aspects to the idea of paying for fiction on the web - but I think what it boils down to is, if you're enjoying it, and it brings you $10 worth of pleasure each month, why not? Not everything you read has to be great literature, you're showing their is money to be had in the genre you like, and you're getting fiction you love to read.

If however, you're in it because you "have to know what happens," well, understand that you may never find out - a serial site like that probably operates like a soap opera: the story will never finish, because if it does the author can kiss that income goodbye. Or if it does finish, it will likely be an abrupt ending that occurs right around the time a real contract for actual published work comes in.

I do agree that $10 is a lot of money, considering she's probably not giving you a novel and a half every month...but if you're having $10 worth of fun, then you're havign $10 worth of fun. If you're not, well...cancel your subscription and write your own ending. You might like it better than hers.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Wow... that was like... frightening helpful~:) Mad props to you~:)

Thanks :D
I was never really going to have it be a "subscription", just a one-time deal, 'cause I reeeeally can't afford even the one-off and was kinda pressured into it by my addictive response to cliff-hangers and also my insatiable need for more boylove, ahaha. But yes... I don't know what exactly $10 worth of fun is, but I gather it's that thing that happens when I pay that much money and am not sorry later~:)

And I'm pretty sorry, although... I do feel a bit less "itchy", which is nice. I mean, I mostly wanted to get enough of her junky world that I felt sated, which I think is a can-do. As far as knowing what happens... yeah, I knew all those things you said when I was starting out, but seeing it in black-and-white like this really drove the concept home, I guess. Yeah, I know I can't really expect to see the ending, which is partly what annoyed me, though it's not like you don't have serialized things that are published in the mainstream. Comics, for one thing. Well, that's most of it. Then again, comics tend to have -some- stand-alone value, generally. Maybe.

Also, I don't really like her writing, which makes me uncomfortable if my patronage implies that. Like, I don't mean I like the writing by buying at least 50-60% of the comics/music/fiction that I've bought at one time or another. Generally, it just means I can't have it for free and it's hooked me and I'm very impulsive. I feel dirty about the implication that I'm supporting something I'm unwilling to support, but eh, I mean, it's just me, not a horde of fangirls :>

Anyway, things are much clearer now, thanks.
Hahah, loved the bit about the crack-habit. Though all too often, even a published novel will be "part 1 of 12" these days :T

[thegraybook.livejournal.com]

And here I was wondering how much suffering one needed to experience to be a writer. Is an afternoon of suffering enough? A really bad brunch? :>

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

I have this really bad hangnail ... ;)

[winters-end.livejournal.com]

You're welcome - and you're right about the comic books and the whole "part 1 of 12" publishing that's going on now. Heck, even the movies are doing it with Lord of the Rings (though they did make a genuine effort to make each movie self-contained in LoTR) and Kill Bill Vol. 1-2.

And I wouldn't feel bad about the "misspent" $10...yeah, you didn't get as much satisfaction as you'd hoped out of it, but at least now you know. As for "approving" of her writing with your patronage, well, that only applies if you resubscribe next month. Think if it this way - when you originally paid, it was the topic and a few teasers that interested you enough to read more...but once you did read more, it was her responsibility as an author to hold your interest with good writing and a professional layout. Which she didn't, so I think you're making exactly the statement you want to by buying in once and never again:

"I will pay for the promise of hot boylove - it's a genre that interests me and I'd like to see it grow. However, I do expect certain standards, and now that I've looked around the site and seen that they're NOT met...I think I'll skip this author."

When most people walk into a bookstore, they buy a book based on very little information - the jacket, the excerpt on the first page, the pretty picture on the cover, whatever. That's what you've done - said the cover art and back-of-book blurb are interesting. But the truly successful authors are the ones who get repeat business - and that's where the true approval lies. I think buying the first time is an approval of the concept and the premise, and buying a second time is approval of the actual work itself...the first one, anyways.

So yeah. I think if you resubscribe then yeah, you're supporting her work...but if she looks at her stats and notices that 50% of people who buy in don't bother to stay a second month then...regardless of how much money she's got in her hot little hands, she's going to know she's not delivering a product people will continue to pay for. In order to make this work, I'm betting she needs repeat subscribers, and not just a one-time $10 from each interested party in turn.

So don't feel bad - you placed your bets and took your chances, and this time it didn't work out. But by buying and then losing interest, you've still sent a message. And $10 saying "I like the idea of boylove, but it has to be good to hold my interest" isn't, in the grand scheme of things, a bad investment. Even if she doesn't get the message, somewhere down the road, some publisher probably will.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh, well, if it was up to me, I'd probably never pay for fiction. Not that I don't like actually -having- it. So yeah, I'd probably pay for my favorite fiction, but I wouldn't pay just to read, it'd be a pay-to-keep sort of thing. Since I never re-read almost anything, ever, there's a certain logic to it in my head :> But anyway, I'd prolly feel weird about this no matter what, since I feel weird to some degree about paying for fiction-- at least paying the cover price, these days especially. ^^;

But now I feel all noble, almost, sending a message and all that~:) Truth is, I wouldn't really feel all that bad except that her stuff is all in-progress which is frustrating. And I can only imagine the day when America will be like Japan with the whole boylove market. A lot of things would probably be different by then.

People would like to think that this country is totally governed by economics, but I have this feeling that it's about equally govered by puritanism in some things, anyway. Or maybe that's just me -.-