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reenkaSo I posted a somewhat defensive (and not entirely defensible) rant on veelainc about mpreg, asking why the hell anyone writes/reads/likes it, and kind of asking why don't they just write het. Um... except I was more circumspect about it (of course). Since veelainc's reply setting is "to sender", I've gotten two emails, both very nice and helpful, though one of them just told me that asking that question is like asking "why write slash and not het? why write fanfic and not original fic?"-- and I admit she's got a point there. I was just kind of pissed off at the badfic (I get that way sometimes-- I realize it's a problem) and wanted to flail, except cover my ass at the same time.
Then she just kind of told me that if I didn't understand/like it now, I never will. And I really have a problem with that. Why does anyone say that? Is it just that it's so rare for understanding to occur that people just don't expect it anymore? Is the general experience so formative that they can't imagine I'm open-minded enough to accept/understand things that annoy and boggle me? Does this relate to people thinking I'm self-righteous (and thus closed-minded)? Do I in particular just come off as someone who wouldn't "get it" even if she tries and whose mind is rusty as a doornail? Why can't I understand things that don't come naturally, especially if that understanding is my stated goal?
I'm not so much offended as... kind of disappointed. Somehow I've disappointed someone who doesn't even know me, just by not understanding and being ignorant. If we just wrote off all the ignorant people, what hope is there? How can one transcend prejudice if most people go around with the idea that if you don't immediately agree, you're never going to? Is this indicative of some larger societal trend or am I just off my rocker as usual?
This ties into there being only a small, small group of people (generally my friends) who ever disagree with me on this journal. It's either "I agree" or... silence. Is it that same idea that disagreeing is pointless operating? Is it that people are just content to only discuss things in an environment where there's a foregone consensus? I mean, I know lots of people argue with each other, and try to use rhetoric to sway each other, and so on. Where does this idea that one is doomed to one's opinions and preferences come from?
I mean... people are clearly mulish about some prejudices. I myself am not about to read mpreg no matter how much understanding I suddenly gain of it. But! Understanding and liking are two different things, aren't they. Understanding would most likely mean I don't -hate- it anymore (this, btw, is why it's not homophobic to dislike slash, come to think of it-- if you are okay with others' liking slash). It won't mean some happyland of bliss, but at least I can see what the appeal is for others-- and I respect others' opinions on a basic level, especially if I can see the rationale behind them. That's to be expected of a civilized person, isn't it?
~~
Okay, um. I'm just curious, don't hurt me.
I -could- just flail or secretly brood about this, but instead I'm going to try to strike up some sort of intelligent conversation about this.
I'm going to come clean and say that the idea of mpreg boggles my mind. The idea of writing about pregnancy as a plot-device is as old as time itself, I realize this. I've read enough bad romance novels when I was 14-- I know all about the impetuous-yet-fiesty heroine who has been betrothed to the frightening, cold Lord of the Manor. He just wants heirs, but she wants True Love. Can her vibrant heart and heaving bosom win over the prickly man of her dreams, or is their love doomed before it began??
I'm sure this is sounding familiar.
But! That is the literary criticism take on it, which doesn't answer the whole question of 'what the hell??' to my satisfaction.
What I want to know is:
If pregnancy really appeals, clearly there is some basic misapplied attraction to het romance still going on. Do you guys actually want to be writing het? I am honestly curious here.
Or is it the pregnancy that appeals? What is it, really? Why do you guys write mpreg? Is it a unique attraction, or is het pregnancy-fic equally appealing? Does it really matter who the characters are, in this case?
I guess that's my secondary question-- why write H/D mpreg?
I mean, H/D as a pairing is unlikely already-- it has a zillion hurdles to overcome. Besides the hurdles to overcome with -any- slash fanfic, since you have to rewrite the original source material to some degree-- a source that is basically het. You have to write the boys as gay or bi, and still keep them somewhat in character. Surely anyone can see how having one of them get pregnant messes with this tentative new identity even more? Since already their masculinity was in flux to some extent, and now you're just about demolishing it....?
Why would that appeal? Unless an mpreg writer -wants- one of these boys to-- well-- not be a boy. It's easy enough to write H/D except have one of them be a girl. Just write Draco/Ginny, and voila! Have all the girlhood you could possibly want.
So I guess I'm just trying to understand the motivations here. Clearly, if mpreg really wanted to be het, it -would- be het. But it's not. Something about the idea of boyness is apparently necessary to the recipe. But what? Generally these fics aren't NC17, though I admit sometimes they are. Is that it?
Is pregnancy sexy somehow? Did I just miss that? Is it some desire to domesticate? To have boys suffer the feminine illness or what have you? Or is it just funny?
I won't even go into weddings-- that's a separate issue. I realize some gay men get married too. Admittedly not as teenagers, but whatever. It's not a het institution, though I have to say most m/m marriage fics I've seen read pretty standard & heterosexually oriented to me. But that's more the writing than the idea behind it, so okay.
My issue with mpreg transcends writing. You could suck or you could be genius-- my response would still be some variation on, wtf??
So I just thought I'd ask.
~~
On re-read, I have to say that my "masculity in flux" comment was rather iffy. What I meant was-- that other male characters-- that is, other boys-- are likely to be prejudiced-- I don't mean homophobic. I just mean... boys are mean, generally (har har, yes, sweeping generalization; bear with me). They're pretty insecure about their "manhood" around adolescence, and it seems like the majority would be not too accepting of one of them coming out. It doesn't have to be some over-the-top homophobic fit or anything-- I'm just saying there's that discomfort there, this cultural atmosphere where if you're gay, you're not seen as being as masculine anymore. That wasn't -my- opinion by any means-- that was me projecting.
The other iffy thing was the comparison to bodice-ripper het romances-- I realize that the general complete focus on the pregnancy doesn't follow the courtship-romance-marriage-babies structure, but I still think that the unexpected baby storyline is tried-and-true. If anything, it sure happens a lot, as far as reasons for adolescent marriage go. It was very helpful to be told that the attraction is the resulting -bond- between the characters-- sort of relating mpreg to mind-bonding and love-potion fics. Okay. It's just something to force the two together, and the focus is apparently not on the -pregnancy- as the desired end, necessarily, but on the resultant interaction. I can go with that.
I also probably shouldn't have brought up the wedding thing, since that just muddles the issue. Personally, it makes it all seem kind of neat and tidy and heterosexual (as well as out-of-character) to me, but I have to admit (and did admit) that gay men do sometimes want to get married. Usually way past their adolescence, but whatever. I think I'll always kind of see the marriage-and-a-baby thing as kind of default-het because if you're gay, it's sort of... an act of rebellion, at this point, while if you're not it's sort of expected. And that makes it different in practice even as it's the same in theory, kind of. Being married is probably more similar, but the process of deciding and going through with it for a gay couple is still subversive even if it shouldn't be. But I -really- don't want to open that can of worms right now.
Then she just kind of told me that if I didn't understand/like it now, I never will. And I really have a problem with that. Why does anyone say that? Is it just that it's so rare for understanding to occur that people just don't expect it anymore? Is the general experience so formative that they can't imagine I'm open-minded enough to accept/understand things that annoy and boggle me? Does this relate to people thinking I'm self-righteous (and thus closed-minded)? Do I in particular just come off as someone who wouldn't "get it" even if she tries and whose mind is rusty as a doornail? Why can't I understand things that don't come naturally, especially if that understanding is my stated goal?
I'm not so much offended as... kind of disappointed. Somehow I've disappointed someone who doesn't even know me, just by not understanding and being ignorant. If we just wrote off all the ignorant people, what hope is there? How can one transcend prejudice if most people go around with the idea that if you don't immediately agree, you're never going to? Is this indicative of some larger societal trend or am I just off my rocker as usual?
This ties into there being only a small, small group of people (generally my friends) who ever disagree with me on this journal. It's either "I agree" or... silence. Is it that same idea that disagreeing is pointless operating? Is it that people are just content to only discuss things in an environment where there's a foregone consensus? I mean, I know lots of people argue with each other, and try to use rhetoric to sway each other, and so on. Where does this idea that one is doomed to one's opinions and preferences come from?
I mean... people are clearly mulish about some prejudices. I myself am not about to read mpreg no matter how much understanding I suddenly gain of it. But! Understanding and liking are two different things, aren't they. Understanding would most likely mean I don't -hate- it anymore (this, btw, is why it's not homophobic to dislike slash, come to think of it-- if you are okay with others' liking slash). It won't mean some happyland of bliss, but at least I can see what the appeal is for others-- and I respect others' opinions on a basic level, especially if I can see the rationale behind them. That's to be expected of a civilized person, isn't it?
~~
Okay, um. I'm just curious, don't hurt me.
I -could- just flail or secretly brood about this, but instead I'm going to try to strike up some sort of intelligent conversation about this.
I'm going to come clean and say that the idea of mpreg boggles my mind. The idea of writing about pregnancy as a plot-device is as old as time itself, I realize this. I've read enough bad romance novels when I was 14-- I know all about the impetuous-yet-fiesty heroine who has been betrothed to the frightening, cold Lord of the Manor. He just wants heirs, but she wants True Love. Can her vibrant heart and heaving bosom win over the prickly man of her dreams, or is their love doomed before it began??
I'm sure this is sounding familiar.
But! That is the literary criticism take on it, which doesn't answer the whole question of 'what the hell??' to my satisfaction.
What I want to know is:
If pregnancy really appeals, clearly there is some basic misapplied attraction to het romance still going on. Do you guys actually want to be writing het? I am honestly curious here.
Or is it the pregnancy that appeals? What is it, really? Why do you guys write mpreg? Is it a unique attraction, or is het pregnancy-fic equally appealing? Does it really matter who the characters are, in this case?
I guess that's my secondary question-- why write H/D mpreg?
I mean, H/D as a pairing is unlikely already-- it has a zillion hurdles to overcome. Besides the hurdles to overcome with -any- slash fanfic, since you have to rewrite the original source material to some degree-- a source that is basically het. You have to write the boys as gay or bi, and still keep them somewhat in character. Surely anyone can see how having one of them get pregnant messes with this tentative new identity even more? Since already their masculinity was in flux to some extent, and now you're just about demolishing it....?
Why would that appeal? Unless an mpreg writer -wants- one of these boys to-- well-- not be a boy. It's easy enough to write H/D except have one of them be a girl. Just write Draco/Ginny, and voila! Have all the girlhood you could possibly want.
So I guess I'm just trying to understand the motivations here. Clearly, if mpreg really wanted to be het, it -would- be het. But it's not. Something about the idea of boyness is apparently necessary to the recipe. But what? Generally these fics aren't NC17, though I admit sometimes they are. Is that it?
Is pregnancy sexy somehow? Did I just miss that? Is it some desire to domesticate? To have boys suffer the feminine illness or what have you? Or is it just funny?
I won't even go into weddings-- that's a separate issue. I realize some gay men get married too. Admittedly not as teenagers, but whatever. It's not a het institution, though I have to say most m/m marriage fics I've seen read pretty standard & heterosexually oriented to me. But that's more the writing than the idea behind it, so okay.
My issue with mpreg transcends writing. You could suck or you could be genius-- my response would still be some variation on, wtf??
So I just thought I'd ask.
~~
On re-read, I have to say that my "masculity in flux" comment was rather iffy. What I meant was-- that other male characters-- that is, other boys-- are likely to be prejudiced-- I don't mean homophobic. I just mean... boys are mean, generally (har har, yes, sweeping generalization; bear with me). They're pretty insecure about their "manhood" around adolescence, and it seems like the majority would be not too accepting of one of them coming out. It doesn't have to be some over-the-top homophobic fit or anything-- I'm just saying there's that discomfort there, this cultural atmosphere where if you're gay, you're not seen as being as masculine anymore. That wasn't -my- opinion by any means-- that was me projecting.
The other iffy thing was the comparison to bodice-ripper het romances-- I realize that the general complete focus on the pregnancy doesn't follow the courtship-romance-marriage-babies structure, but I still think that the unexpected baby storyline is tried-and-true. If anything, it sure happens a lot, as far as reasons for adolescent marriage go. It was very helpful to be told that the attraction is the resulting -bond- between the characters-- sort of relating mpreg to mind-bonding and love-potion fics. Okay. It's just something to force the two together, and the focus is apparently not on the -pregnancy- as the desired end, necessarily, but on the resultant interaction. I can go with that.
I also probably shouldn't have brought up the wedding thing, since that just muddles the issue. Personally, it makes it all seem kind of neat and tidy and heterosexual (as well as out-of-character) to me, but I have to admit (and did admit) that gay men do sometimes want to get married. Usually way past their adolescence, but whatever. I think I'll always kind of see the marriage-and-a-baby thing as kind of default-het because if you're gay, it's sort of... an act of rebellion, at this point, while if you're not it's sort of expected. And that makes it different in practice even as it's the same in theory, kind of. Being married is probably more similar, but the process of deciding and going through with it for a gay couple is still subversive even if it shouldn't be. But I -really- don't want to open that can of worms right now.
Re: and!
Date: 2003-12-04 04:09 pm (UTC)next:
-what- people like about that thing.
Ok, what I like about the mpreg partly is that it is so far out in left field. It's utterly strange and mindboggling and. well. sometimes you just like to see characters *suffer* and sometimes you just like characters to suffer like you. There is also something hilarious about reading mpreg, it's utterly absurd and fun; sometimes rather like reading certain badfic.
Or, for instance, reading one of those multitudes and heaps of h/d mindbonding fic, most of which are outrageously out of character. It's never going to happen but you like seeing it. It fulfills a fantasy. It's fun.
I've written an mpreg myself (RPaS no less), but it's one of those completely throughly toungue-in-cheek ones, because it's just glorious unrepentant fun. You *can't* really take it seriously, or at least that's my view towards it and the general sense that I've gotten from the mailing list I'm on.
Re: and!
Date: 2003-12-04 04:19 pm (UTC)Part of my problem and why I blew up (though I suppose you'd have to know me well to know that post on veelainc was me blowing up) was that the fic being posted was rather serious and earnest. And it led me to believe the writers were like, well, we really do believe that Harry and Draco could/should have babies & etcetc. Or whatever. I can take a lot of absurd things in a spirit of fun-- but once it gets serious, for me(!!) it's edging into new territory where I react to it more strongly and viscerally.
Amanuensis' mpreg (which I liked, though didn't -love- or anything) was rather tongue-in-cheek so I was onboard, generally. But a romantic "let's-hold-hands-and-talk-about-our-feelings" mpreg just... freaks me out. And that's just me! And... is it still the same kink? Is it a somewhat different kink? Does it -matter-?? eheheh. Mostly, maybe I should just chuck that particular earnest-as-heck mpreg as "bad writing" and be done with it :>
Re: and!
Date: 2003-12-04 05:04 pm (UTC)huh...why does a serious tone encourage a serious reading? I mean, I understand the need if it's for something business related or for school or technical, but stories? I tend to take all non-fiction with a grain of salt and a suspension of disbelief.
I'm not sure which definition of 'kink' you are using right now. Mpreg is sometimes like scratching an itch, and I don't think it satisfies anything similar to what smut does. apples and oranges, y'might say.
as for bad writing...it depends on you reference points and your goals. If it satisfies the author's intended goals for their intended audience then it could be labeled a good fic. But this is only so long as you don't get your audiences mixed up: if the author tries to 'sell' the fic to the wrong target group without realizing that the group is coming from a different place than the author, or a random reader chances upon a fic without knowing the background/intention of the fic, then it becomes horribly godawfully messy. For instance, mary sues. There are people who adore them because they satisfy certain aims of wishfulfillment. At the root of it, they aren't written as an exploration of character or as action/adventures, and if either the author or the audience mistakes this, then you get problems.
Re: and!
Date: 2003-12-04 06:04 pm (UTC)Not all fiction is art, I guess, but to me that's the ideal and it hurts me-- actually hurts me-- to read bad fic (unless it's bad in a funny way, which is hard to quantify). There's no "type" or subject-matter of fic that -has- to be written in a certain way-- that is to say, a sloppy way. Good writing is control and intentional use of language-- where every phrase and word -means- something and is there for a reason. Good writing communicates what it intended to and more besides, but is nonetheless controlled in its range of meanings. Good writing can be taken on many levels, understood by several different intelligence/maturity levels and enjoyed by all of them.
I guess I persoanlly don't -want- to seriously consider lowering my standards, mostly because it's such a personal thing & great literature gives me just intense amounts of joy. Like, reading extremely good writing-- say, Shakespeare-- actually makes me tear up. Not because of the tragedy or sadness-- but simply because of the beauty. I'm a style-slut and I admit it :> I can never be like, "eh, it does what it set out to, whatever". I can understand that pov, but I can't get behind it, y'know? Language is too much a thing I worship ^^;
I'm using
A serious fic encourages serious reading 'cause that seems to be its goal, and I tend to be sensitive to a story's goals as far as I can see them. If a fic wants to make me laugh, I wouldn't expect it to make me think, or condemn it if it doesn't. Similarly, if a fic tries to be romantic and earnest, I'm going to be all "eh" about it if it makes me cringe at the melodrama and falseness, or something :>
Re: and!
Date: 2003-12-05 12:02 am (UTC)But. I dunno. See, I don't think it's about lowering standards, but perhaps seeing them under the standards which they are written in. I agree with you on your definition of Good Writing but part of the way that you've explained it hurts, in a way.
It *feels* much like when people criticize a short story, for not being a novel. Or criticizes a novel, for not being a poem.
...and I'm not sure if you are accidentally limiting yourself, or if I'm reading it wrong, but what if a fic want to make you laugh and think simutaneously? or be melodramatic and romantic and earnest all at once? I dunno. And realistically, I'm know I'm being defensive here because I've written a fic like that; and heck, *all* of my fic have multiple agendas...
And that last paragraph seems strange to me because its a limitation to a singular focused reading of fic and based it on a standard of writing that doesn't cover all the goals that fic could be based on.
Like, okay, here's an example from music: there is a standard of music that includes pretty melodic lines, ie. regular chord progressing and melodies and voices. This standard of music is the most pleasing to the human ear.
BUT. It's not the *only* standard that music can fall into. What about modern classical music, where discordancy is prominent? Punk? Ska? Heavy metal? or the faults of a garage band?
These aren't based on the same foundations as music that's natually pleasing to the ear, you can't judge them the same way...they're judged by different standards, not lowered.
Re: and!
Date: 2003-12-05 12:41 pm (UTC)My favorite fics -are- humorous & sad & thoughtful at once-- I wasn't trying to limit to a certain theme so much as saying that I take it as I find it, depending on whether I -like- it or not, of course. Generally, if there's a serious element -there-, in my review/feedback I would talk about it seriously with some bits of squeeing and descriptive praise or whatever.
I guess the thing is, my preferences lie not in genre but in execution and level of complexity vs. transparency of author intent. There is plenty of melodic music I don't like, for instance, but in general I do like it more than punk, let's say. That said, I do like quite a bit of the more dissonant types of music and I don't really compare them to the melodic types-- I guess I'm just harder to please 'cause I don't give some things as much leeway out of personal preference.
That is to say, if the fic doesn't appeal to me in some way, it's going to have to compensate somehow. But this is another subject entirely. Mostly, of -course- I don't prefer humor-fic over angst, for instance-- I find that silly. However, I see "quality" as a more general overall criteria. Some people say they don't need quality in a kinkfic or porn-- I do. It's not a question of genre or content for me. I really don't care what the content is, I want fiction to be well-written and make sense on some basic level. But that's just my admitted bias and ruling kink, I guess :>