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reenkaSo I posted a somewhat defensive (and not entirely defensible) rant on veelainc about mpreg, asking why the hell anyone writes/reads/likes it, and kind of asking why don't they just write het. Um... except I was more circumspect about it (of course). Since veelainc's reply setting is "to sender", I've gotten two emails, both very nice and helpful, though one of them just told me that asking that question is like asking "why write slash and not het? why write fanfic and not original fic?"-- and I admit she's got a point there. I was just kind of pissed off at the badfic (I get that way sometimes-- I realize it's a problem) and wanted to flail, except cover my ass at the same time.
Then she just kind of told me that if I didn't understand/like it now, I never will. And I really have a problem with that. Why does anyone say that? Is it just that it's so rare for understanding to occur that people just don't expect it anymore? Is the general experience so formative that they can't imagine I'm open-minded enough to accept/understand things that annoy and boggle me? Does this relate to people thinking I'm self-righteous (and thus closed-minded)? Do I in particular just come off as someone who wouldn't "get it" even if she tries and whose mind is rusty as a doornail? Why can't I understand things that don't come naturally, especially if that understanding is my stated goal?
I'm not so much offended as... kind of disappointed. Somehow I've disappointed someone who doesn't even know me, just by not understanding and being ignorant. If we just wrote off all the ignorant people, what hope is there? How can one transcend prejudice if most people go around with the idea that if you don't immediately agree, you're never going to? Is this indicative of some larger societal trend or am I just off my rocker as usual?
This ties into there being only a small, small group of people (generally my friends) who ever disagree with me on this journal. It's either "I agree" or... silence. Is it that same idea that disagreeing is pointless operating? Is it that people are just content to only discuss things in an environment where there's a foregone consensus? I mean, I know lots of people argue with each other, and try to use rhetoric to sway each other, and so on. Where does this idea that one is doomed to one's opinions and preferences come from?
I mean... people are clearly mulish about some prejudices. I myself am not about to read mpreg no matter how much understanding I suddenly gain of it. But! Understanding and liking are two different things, aren't they. Understanding would most likely mean I don't -hate- it anymore (this, btw, is why it's not homophobic to dislike slash, come to think of it-- if you are okay with others' liking slash). It won't mean some happyland of bliss, but at least I can see what the appeal is for others-- and I respect others' opinions on a basic level, especially if I can see the rationale behind them. That's to be expected of a civilized person, isn't it?
~~
Okay, um. I'm just curious, don't hurt me.
I -could- just flail or secretly brood about this, but instead I'm going to try to strike up some sort of intelligent conversation about this.
I'm going to come clean and say that the idea of mpreg boggles my mind. The idea of writing about pregnancy as a plot-device is as old as time itself, I realize this. I've read enough bad romance novels when I was 14-- I know all about the impetuous-yet-fiesty heroine who has been betrothed to the frightening, cold Lord of the Manor. He just wants heirs, but she wants True Love. Can her vibrant heart and heaving bosom win over the prickly man of her dreams, or is their love doomed before it began??
I'm sure this is sounding familiar.
But! That is the literary criticism take on it, which doesn't answer the whole question of 'what the hell??' to my satisfaction.
What I want to know is:
If pregnancy really appeals, clearly there is some basic misapplied attraction to het romance still going on. Do you guys actually want to be writing het? I am honestly curious here.
Or is it the pregnancy that appeals? What is it, really? Why do you guys write mpreg? Is it a unique attraction, or is het pregnancy-fic equally appealing? Does it really matter who the characters are, in this case?
I guess that's my secondary question-- why write H/D mpreg?
I mean, H/D as a pairing is unlikely already-- it has a zillion hurdles to overcome. Besides the hurdles to overcome with -any- slash fanfic, since you have to rewrite the original source material to some degree-- a source that is basically het. You have to write the boys as gay or bi, and still keep them somewhat in character. Surely anyone can see how having one of them get pregnant messes with this tentative new identity even more? Since already their masculinity was in flux to some extent, and now you're just about demolishing it....?
Why would that appeal? Unless an mpreg writer -wants- one of these boys to-- well-- not be a boy. It's easy enough to write H/D except have one of them be a girl. Just write Draco/Ginny, and voila! Have all the girlhood you could possibly want.
So I guess I'm just trying to understand the motivations here. Clearly, if mpreg really wanted to be het, it -would- be het. But it's not. Something about the idea of boyness is apparently necessary to the recipe. But what? Generally these fics aren't NC17, though I admit sometimes they are. Is that it?
Is pregnancy sexy somehow? Did I just miss that? Is it some desire to domesticate? To have boys suffer the feminine illness or what have you? Or is it just funny?
I won't even go into weddings-- that's a separate issue. I realize some gay men get married too. Admittedly not as teenagers, but whatever. It's not a het institution, though I have to say most m/m marriage fics I've seen read pretty standard & heterosexually oriented to me. But that's more the writing than the idea behind it, so okay.
My issue with mpreg transcends writing. You could suck or you could be genius-- my response would still be some variation on, wtf??
So I just thought I'd ask.
~~
On re-read, I have to say that my "masculity in flux" comment was rather iffy. What I meant was-- that other male characters-- that is, other boys-- are likely to be prejudiced-- I don't mean homophobic. I just mean... boys are mean, generally (har har, yes, sweeping generalization; bear with me). They're pretty insecure about their "manhood" around adolescence, and it seems like the majority would be not too accepting of one of them coming out. It doesn't have to be some over-the-top homophobic fit or anything-- I'm just saying there's that discomfort there, this cultural atmosphere where if you're gay, you're not seen as being as masculine anymore. That wasn't -my- opinion by any means-- that was me projecting.
The other iffy thing was the comparison to bodice-ripper het romances-- I realize that the general complete focus on the pregnancy doesn't follow the courtship-romance-marriage-babies structure, but I still think that the unexpected baby storyline is tried-and-true. If anything, it sure happens a lot, as far as reasons for adolescent marriage go. It was very helpful to be told that the attraction is the resulting -bond- between the characters-- sort of relating mpreg to mind-bonding and love-potion fics. Okay. It's just something to force the two together, and the focus is apparently not on the -pregnancy- as the desired end, necessarily, but on the resultant interaction. I can go with that.
I also probably shouldn't have brought up the wedding thing, since that just muddles the issue. Personally, it makes it all seem kind of neat and tidy and heterosexual (as well as out-of-character) to me, but I have to admit (and did admit) that gay men do sometimes want to get married. Usually way past their adolescence, but whatever. I think I'll always kind of see the marriage-and-a-baby thing as kind of default-het because if you're gay, it's sort of... an act of rebellion, at this point, while if you're not it's sort of expected. And that makes it different in practice even as it's the same in theory, kind of. Being married is probably more similar, but the process of deciding and going through with it for a gay couple is still subversive even if it shouldn't be. But I -really- don't want to open that can of worms right now.
Then she just kind of told me that if I didn't understand/like it now, I never will. And I really have a problem with that. Why does anyone say that? Is it just that it's so rare for understanding to occur that people just don't expect it anymore? Is the general experience so formative that they can't imagine I'm open-minded enough to accept/understand things that annoy and boggle me? Does this relate to people thinking I'm self-righteous (and thus closed-minded)? Do I in particular just come off as someone who wouldn't "get it" even if she tries and whose mind is rusty as a doornail? Why can't I understand things that don't come naturally, especially if that understanding is my stated goal?
I'm not so much offended as... kind of disappointed. Somehow I've disappointed someone who doesn't even know me, just by not understanding and being ignorant. If we just wrote off all the ignorant people, what hope is there? How can one transcend prejudice if most people go around with the idea that if you don't immediately agree, you're never going to? Is this indicative of some larger societal trend or am I just off my rocker as usual?
This ties into there being only a small, small group of people (generally my friends) who ever disagree with me on this journal. It's either "I agree" or... silence. Is it that same idea that disagreeing is pointless operating? Is it that people are just content to only discuss things in an environment where there's a foregone consensus? I mean, I know lots of people argue with each other, and try to use rhetoric to sway each other, and so on. Where does this idea that one is doomed to one's opinions and preferences come from?
I mean... people are clearly mulish about some prejudices. I myself am not about to read mpreg no matter how much understanding I suddenly gain of it. But! Understanding and liking are two different things, aren't they. Understanding would most likely mean I don't -hate- it anymore (this, btw, is why it's not homophobic to dislike slash, come to think of it-- if you are okay with others' liking slash). It won't mean some happyland of bliss, but at least I can see what the appeal is for others-- and I respect others' opinions on a basic level, especially if I can see the rationale behind them. That's to be expected of a civilized person, isn't it?
~~
Okay, um. I'm just curious, don't hurt me.
I -could- just flail or secretly brood about this, but instead I'm going to try to strike up some sort of intelligent conversation about this.
I'm going to come clean and say that the idea of mpreg boggles my mind. The idea of writing about pregnancy as a plot-device is as old as time itself, I realize this. I've read enough bad romance novels when I was 14-- I know all about the impetuous-yet-fiesty heroine who has been betrothed to the frightening, cold Lord of the Manor. He just wants heirs, but she wants True Love. Can her vibrant heart and heaving bosom win over the prickly man of her dreams, or is their love doomed before it began??
I'm sure this is sounding familiar.
But! That is the literary criticism take on it, which doesn't answer the whole question of 'what the hell??' to my satisfaction.
What I want to know is:
If pregnancy really appeals, clearly there is some basic misapplied attraction to het romance still going on. Do you guys actually want to be writing het? I am honestly curious here.
Or is it the pregnancy that appeals? What is it, really? Why do you guys write mpreg? Is it a unique attraction, or is het pregnancy-fic equally appealing? Does it really matter who the characters are, in this case?
I guess that's my secondary question-- why write H/D mpreg?
I mean, H/D as a pairing is unlikely already-- it has a zillion hurdles to overcome. Besides the hurdles to overcome with -any- slash fanfic, since you have to rewrite the original source material to some degree-- a source that is basically het. You have to write the boys as gay or bi, and still keep them somewhat in character. Surely anyone can see how having one of them get pregnant messes with this tentative new identity even more? Since already their masculinity was in flux to some extent, and now you're just about demolishing it....?
Why would that appeal? Unless an mpreg writer -wants- one of these boys to-- well-- not be a boy. It's easy enough to write H/D except have one of them be a girl. Just write Draco/Ginny, and voila! Have all the girlhood you could possibly want.
So I guess I'm just trying to understand the motivations here. Clearly, if mpreg really wanted to be het, it -would- be het. But it's not. Something about the idea of boyness is apparently necessary to the recipe. But what? Generally these fics aren't NC17, though I admit sometimes they are. Is that it?
Is pregnancy sexy somehow? Did I just miss that? Is it some desire to domesticate? To have boys suffer the feminine illness or what have you? Or is it just funny?
I won't even go into weddings-- that's a separate issue. I realize some gay men get married too. Admittedly not as teenagers, but whatever. It's not a het institution, though I have to say most m/m marriage fics I've seen read pretty standard & heterosexually oriented to me. But that's more the writing than the idea behind it, so okay.
My issue with mpreg transcends writing. You could suck or you could be genius-- my response would still be some variation on, wtf??
So I just thought I'd ask.
~~
On re-read, I have to say that my "masculity in flux" comment was rather iffy. What I meant was-- that other male characters-- that is, other boys-- are likely to be prejudiced-- I don't mean homophobic. I just mean... boys are mean, generally (har har, yes, sweeping generalization; bear with me). They're pretty insecure about their "manhood" around adolescence, and it seems like the majority would be not too accepting of one of them coming out. It doesn't have to be some over-the-top homophobic fit or anything-- I'm just saying there's that discomfort there, this cultural atmosphere where if you're gay, you're not seen as being as masculine anymore. That wasn't -my- opinion by any means-- that was me projecting.
The other iffy thing was the comparison to bodice-ripper het romances-- I realize that the general complete focus on the pregnancy doesn't follow the courtship-romance-marriage-babies structure, but I still think that the unexpected baby storyline is tried-and-true. If anything, it sure happens a lot, as far as reasons for adolescent marriage go. It was very helpful to be told that the attraction is the resulting -bond- between the characters-- sort of relating mpreg to mind-bonding and love-potion fics. Okay. It's just something to force the two together, and the focus is apparently not on the -pregnancy- as the desired end, necessarily, but on the resultant interaction. I can go with that.
I also probably shouldn't have brought up the wedding thing, since that just muddles the issue. Personally, it makes it all seem kind of neat and tidy and heterosexual (as well as out-of-character) to me, but I have to admit (and did admit) that gay men do sometimes want to get married. Usually way past their adolescence, but whatever. I think I'll always kind of see the marriage-and-a-baby thing as kind of default-het because if you're gay, it's sort of... an act of rebellion, at this point, while if you're not it's sort of expected. And that makes it different in practice even as it's the same in theory, kind of. Being married is probably more similar, but the process of deciding and going through with it for a gay couple is still subversive even if it shouldn't be. But I -really- don't want to open that can of worms right now.
