![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaSo I posted a somewhat defensive (and not entirely defensible) rant on veelainc about mpreg, asking why the hell anyone writes/reads/likes it, and kind of asking why don't they just write het. Um... except I was more circumspect about it (of course). Since veelainc's reply setting is "to sender", I've gotten two emails, both very nice and helpful, though one of them just told me that asking that question is like asking "why write slash and not het? why write fanfic and not original fic?"-- and I admit she's got a point there. I was just kind of pissed off at the badfic (I get that way sometimes-- I realize it's a problem) and wanted to flail, except cover my ass at the same time.
Then she just kind of told me that if I didn't understand/like it now, I never will. And I really have a problem with that. Why does anyone say that? Is it just that it's so rare for understanding to occur that people just don't expect it anymore? Is the general experience so formative that they can't imagine I'm open-minded enough to accept/understand things that annoy and boggle me? Does this relate to people thinking I'm self-righteous (and thus closed-minded)? Do I in particular just come off as someone who wouldn't "get it" even if she tries and whose mind is rusty as a doornail? Why can't I understand things that don't come naturally, especially if that understanding is my stated goal?
I'm not so much offended as... kind of disappointed. Somehow I've disappointed someone who doesn't even know me, just by not understanding and being ignorant. If we just wrote off all the ignorant people, what hope is there? How can one transcend prejudice if most people go around with the idea that if you don't immediately agree, you're never going to? Is this indicative of some larger societal trend or am I just off my rocker as usual?
This ties into there being only a small, small group of people (generally my friends) who ever disagree with me on this journal. It's either "I agree" or... silence. Is it that same idea that disagreeing is pointless operating? Is it that people are just content to only discuss things in an environment where there's a foregone consensus? I mean, I know lots of people argue with each other, and try to use rhetoric to sway each other, and so on. Where does this idea that one is doomed to one's opinions and preferences come from?
I mean... people are clearly mulish about some prejudices. I myself am not about to read mpreg no matter how much understanding I suddenly gain of it. But! Understanding and liking are two different things, aren't they. Understanding would most likely mean I don't -hate- it anymore (this, btw, is why it's not homophobic to dislike slash, come to think of it-- if you are okay with others' liking slash). It won't mean some happyland of bliss, but at least I can see what the appeal is for others-- and I respect others' opinions on a basic level, especially if I can see the rationale behind them. That's to be expected of a civilized person, isn't it?
~~
Okay, um. I'm just curious, don't hurt me.
I -could- just flail or secretly brood about this, but instead I'm going to try to strike up some sort of intelligent conversation about this.
I'm going to come clean and say that the idea of mpreg boggles my mind. The idea of writing about pregnancy as a plot-device is as old as time itself, I realize this. I've read enough bad romance novels when I was 14-- I know all about the impetuous-yet-fiesty heroine who has been betrothed to the frightening, cold Lord of the Manor. He just wants heirs, but she wants True Love. Can her vibrant heart and heaving bosom win over the prickly man of her dreams, or is their love doomed before it began??
I'm sure this is sounding familiar.
But! That is the literary criticism take on it, which doesn't answer the whole question of 'what the hell??' to my satisfaction.
What I want to know is:
If pregnancy really appeals, clearly there is some basic misapplied attraction to het romance still going on. Do you guys actually want to be writing het? I am honestly curious here.
Or is it the pregnancy that appeals? What is it, really? Why do you guys write mpreg? Is it a unique attraction, or is het pregnancy-fic equally appealing? Does it really matter who the characters are, in this case?
I guess that's my secondary question-- why write H/D mpreg?
I mean, H/D as a pairing is unlikely already-- it has a zillion hurdles to overcome. Besides the hurdles to overcome with -any- slash fanfic, since you have to rewrite the original source material to some degree-- a source that is basically het. You have to write the boys as gay or bi, and still keep them somewhat in character. Surely anyone can see how having one of them get pregnant messes with this tentative new identity even more? Since already their masculinity was in flux to some extent, and now you're just about demolishing it....?
Why would that appeal? Unless an mpreg writer -wants- one of these boys to-- well-- not be a boy. It's easy enough to write H/D except have one of them be a girl. Just write Draco/Ginny, and voila! Have all the girlhood you could possibly want.
So I guess I'm just trying to understand the motivations here. Clearly, if mpreg really wanted to be het, it -would- be het. But it's not. Something about the idea of boyness is apparently necessary to the recipe. But what? Generally these fics aren't NC17, though I admit sometimes they are. Is that it?
Is pregnancy sexy somehow? Did I just miss that? Is it some desire to domesticate? To have boys suffer the feminine illness or what have you? Or is it just funny?
I won't even go into weddings-- that's a separate issue. I realize some gay men get married too. Admittedly not as teenagers, but whatever. It's not a het institution, though I have to say most m/m marriage fics I've seen read pretty standard & heterosexually oriented to me. But that's more the writing than the idea behind it, so okay.
My issue with mpreg transcends writing. You could suck or you could be genius-- my response would still be some variation on, wtf??
So I just thought I'd ask.
~~
On re-read, I have to say that my "masculity in flux" comment was rather iffy. What I meant was-- that other male characters-- that is, other boys-- are likely to be prejudiced-- I don't mean homophobic. I just mean... boys are mean, generally (har har, yes, sweeping generalization; bear with me). They're pretty insecure about their "manhood" around adolescence, and it seems like the majority would be not too accepting of one of them coming out. It doesn't have to be some over-the-top homophobic fit or anything-- I'm just saying there's that discomfort there, this cultural atmosphere where if you're gay, you're not seen as being as masculine anymore. That wasn't -my- opinion by any means-- that was me projecting.
The other iffy thing was the comparison to bodice-ripper het romances-- I realize that the general complete focus on the pregnancy doesn't follow the courtship-romance-marriage-babies structure, but I still think that the unexpected baby storyline is tried-and-true. If anything, it sure happens a lot, as far as reasons for adolescent marriage go. It was very helpful to be told that the attraction is the resulting -bond- between the characters-- sort of relating mpreg to mind-bonding and love-potion fics. Okay. It's just something to force the two together, and the focus is apparently not on the -pregnancy- as the desired end, necessarily, but on the resultant interaction. I can go with that.
I also probably shouldn't have brought up the wedding thing, since that just muddles the issue. Personally, it makes it all seem kind of neat and tidy and heterosexual (as well as out-of-character) to me, but I have to admit (and did admit) that gay men do sometimes want to get married. Usually way past their adolescence, but whatever. I think I'll always kind of see the marriage-and-a-baby thing as kind of default-het because if you're gay, it's sort of... an act of rebellion, at this point, while if you're not it's sort of expected. And that makes it different in practice even as it's the same in theory, kind of. Being married is probably more similar, but the process of deciding and going through with it for a gay couple is still subversive even if it shouldn't be. But I -really- don't want to open that can of worms right now.
Then she just kind of told me that if I didn't understand/like it now, I never will. And I really have a problem with that. Why does anyone say that? Is it just that it's so rare for understanding to occur that people just don't expect it anymore? Is the general experience so formative that they can't imagine I'm open-minded enough to accept/understand things that annoy and boggle me? Does this relate to people thinking I'm self-righteous (and thus closed-minded)? Do I in particular just come off as someone who wouldn't "get it" even if she tries and whose mind is rusty as a doornail? Why can't I understand things that don't come naturally, especially if that understanding is my stated goal?
I'm not so much offended as... kind of disappointed. Somehow I've disappointed someone who doesn't even know me, just by not understanding and being ignorant. If we just wrote off all the ignorant people, what hope is there? How can one transcend prejudice if most people go around with the idea that if you don't immediately agree, you're never going to? Is this indicative of some larger societal trend or am I just off my rocker as usual?
This ties into there being only a small, small group of people (generally my friends) who ever disagree with me on this journal. It's either "I agree" or... silence. Is it that same idea that disagreeing is pointless operating? Is it that people are just content to only discuss things in an environment where there's a foregone consensus? I mean, I know lots of people argue with each other, and try to use rhetoric to sway each other, and so on. Where does this idea that one is doomed to one's opinions and preferences come from?
I mean... people are clearly mulish about some prejudices. I myself am not about to read mpreg no matter how much understanding I suddenly gain of it. But! Understanding and liking are two different things, aren't they. Understanding would most likely mean I don't -hate- it anymore (this, btw, is why it's not homophobic to dislike slash, come to think of it-- if you are okay with others' liking slash). It won't mean some happyland of bliss, but at least I can see what the appeal is for others-- and I respect others' opinions on a basic level, especially if I can see the rationale behind them. That's to be expected of a civilized person, isn't it?
~~
Okay, um. I'm just curious, don't hurt me.
I -could- just flail or secretly brood about this, but instead I'm going to try to strike up some sort of intelligent conversation about this.
I'm going to come clean and say that the idea of mpreg boggles my mind. The idea of writing about pregnancy as a plot-device is as old as time itself, I realize this. I've read enough bad romance novels when I was 14-- I know all about the impetuous-yet-fiesty heroine who has been betrothed to the frightening, cold Lord of the Manor. He just wants heirs, but she wants True Love. Can her vibrant heart and heaving bosom win over the prickly man of her dreams, or is their love doomed before it began??
I'm sure this is sounding familiar.
But! That is the literary criticism take on it, which doesn't answer the whole question of 'what the hell??' to my satisfaction.
What I want to know is:
If pregnancy really appeals, clearly there is some basic misapplied attraction to het romance still going on. Do you guys actually want to be writing het? I am honestly curious here.
Or is it the pregnancy that appeals? What is it, really? Why do you guys write mpreg? Is it a unique attraction, or is het pregnancy-fic equally appealing? Does it really matter who the characters are, in this case?
I guess that's my secondary question-- why write H/D mpreg?
I mean, H/D as a pairing is unlikely already-- it has a zillion hurdles to overcome. Besides the hurdles to overcome with -any- slash fanfic, since you have to rewrite the original source material to some degree-- a source that is basically het. You have to write the boys as gay or bi, and still keep them somewhat in character. Surely anyone can see how having one of them get pregnant messes with this tentative new identity even more? Since already their masculinity was in flux to some extent, and now you're just about demolishing it....?
Why would that appeal? Unless an mpreg writer -wants- one of these boys to-- well-- not be a boy. It's easy enough to write H/D except have one of them be a girl. Just write Draco/Ginny, and voila! Have all the girlhood you could possibly want.
So I guess I'm just trying to understand the motivations here. Clearly, if mpreg really wanted to be het, it -would- be het. But it's not. Something about the idea of boyness is apparently necessary to the recipe. But what? Generally these fics aren't NC17, though I admit sometimes they are. Is that it?
Is pregnancy sexy somehow? Did I just miss that? Is it some desire to domesticate? To have boys suffer the feminine illness or what have you? Or is it just funny?
I won't even go into weddings-- that's a separate issue. I realize some gay men get married too. Admittedly not as teenagers, but whatever. It's not a het institution, though I have to say most m/m marriage fics I've seen read pretty standard & heterosexually oriented to me. But that's more the writing than the idea behind it, so okay.
My issue with mpreg transcends writing. You could suck or you could be genius-- my response would still be some variation on, wtf??
So I just thought I'd ask.
~~
On re-read, I have to say that my "masculity in flux" comment was rather iffy. What I meant was-- that other male characters-- that is, other boys-- are likely to be prejudiced-- I don't mean homophobic. I just mean... boys are mean, generally (har har, yes, sweeping generalization; bear with me). They're pretty insecure about their "manhood" around adolescence, and it seems like the majority would be not too accepting of one of them coming out. It doesn't have to be some over-the-top homophobic fit or anything-- I'm just saying there's that discomfort there, this cultural atmosphere where if you're gay, you're not seen as being as masculine anymore. That wasn't -my- opinion by any means-- that was me projecting.
The other iffy thing was the comparison to bodice-ripper het romances-- I realize that the general complete focus on the pregnancy doesn't follow the courtship-romance-marriage-babies structure, but I still think that the unexpected baby storyline is tried-and-true. If anything, it sure happens a lot, as far as reasons for adolescent marriage go. It was very helpful to be told that the attraction is the resulting -bond- between the characters-- sort of relating mpreg to mind-bonding and love-potion fics. Okay. It's just something to force the two together, and the focus is apparently not on the -pregnancy- as the desired end, necessarily, but on the resultant interaction. I can go with that.
I also probably shouldn't have brought up the wedding thing, since that just muddles the issue. Personally, it makes it all seem kind of neat and tidy and heterosexual (as well as out-of-character) to me, but I have to admit (and did admit) that gay men do sometimes want to get married. Usually way past their adolescence, but whatever. I think I'll always kind of see the marriage-and-a-baby thing as kind of default-het because if you're gay, it's sort of... an act of rebellion, at this point, while if you're not it's sort of expected. And that makes it different in practice even as it's the same in theory, kind of. Being married is probably more similar, but the process of deciding and going through with it for a gay couple is still subversive even if it shouldn't be. But I -really- don't want to open that can of worms right now.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-12-04 02:45 pm (UTC)Okay! Um. But what -does- understanding mean, then?
I can (and do) understand things to some usually incomplete degree (like war) without liking them. It's possible. The thing you said about "my terms" makes me wonder, though. You keep saying that my language is so... individual... like... I don't really share it with the majority, or with the people I'm trying to get at. But am I doomed to this language?
Because I've never found myself unable to understand when someone explains. In those emails I got-- I wasn't feeling my mind rebelling. I was like, "yeah, I can see your point". Even if I don't see it completely or well, I am always willing to keep trying and trying. I don't give up-- I genuinely -want- to stop being irritated and such. And I admit I -was- irritated when I wrote that post, and that probably wasn't the best time, but I didn't care because most mpregs I read are so bad anyway and I feel itchy to tear at badfic sometimes. Though really my irritation is at myself for reading it in the first place, so I generally don't do it.
As far as seeing mpreg as a kink-- I hadn't thought of it that way. Honestly! Neither would I generally go around demanding people justify themselves. The whole thing with torture-fic is an exception because it cuts deep at me for whatever reason. Slash offends no one unless they're homophobic-- I mean, you could dislike it and not be, but if it offends you or really bothers you, then you've got a problem. But sometimes I'm just naive, I guess-- I have this gut-level reaction of horror and I flail and I rant. See, the difference is-- I don't -want- to judge. If I feel myself starting to, I want to be stopped. I hate that feeling of bile, of disgust or dislike or whatever.
I admit I pathologize some things, but that's more my psychological background (pop-psych as it mostly is) rather than my nonexistent sociology background. I have read a lot more psych literature and I think in that way much more than in the anthropological way. I think some things are clearly abnormal, and while that's not -bad- (pathological), necessarily, I can't treat all behaviors and preferences -the same-. Admittedly, this is just fiction, so I'm not seriously trying to determine anyone's state of mind from what they write/read. I'm just such an amateur, basically. It's all much more instinctive and blindly probing than anything else. But I'm sorry 'cause I really should put more thought and sensitivity into it.
And yeah, you're right, I ought to be doing work, but I'm one avoidant bitch ^^;
Also, t's like.... hard to explain... but I'm really... generally... not even judgemental when I -should- be. Which is to say, I'm pretty tolerant of people who irritate the living hell out of almost all others, and I don't bother with confrontations 99.9% of the time. I can (and often do) like mean people and crazy people and freaky people-- sometimes they irritate me, and it doesn't matter to me how freaky they are objectively at that moment, I guess I just rant, but a part of me still remains, trying to soften things (and maybe failing) and still trying to "get it" and have everything be okay again.
I can usually see all 101 sides to an issue if they're told to me (and myself I see at least 2 or 3, even if I don't verbalize them). People say I contradict myself all the time. If I'm judgmental it's usually when I'm being pissed off and defensive (gut-level, yes). The particular mpreg I was thinking of rubbed me the wrong way, while others (Amanuensis', for instance) don't. And so I just snapped-- otherwise I wouldn't have said anything at all. Which is why it paints an unflattering picture, I guess. 'Cause I'm often too lazy to write anything if I can just swallow it. *sigh* I really do back myself into corners, don't I -.-
no subject
Date: 2003-12-04 03:52 pm (UTC)And I think what you're saying is that you just don't like that definition. Which ... okay.
But about being judgmental ... sweetie, you're incredibly judgmental. You set up all these categories of what is and is not acceptable, or what is or is not a sensitive topic. "Torture-fic cuts me deep ... slash offends no one except homophobes & if it bothers you it's a problem ... I never thought of MPREG as a kink ..."
And that's fine, but as I said above, understanding means also accepting people's differences and that they may have different categories of analysis. And that sometimes these concept will never make sense to you ... will never quite jive with your own world view. Sometimes you're never going to completely "get it" on an emotional level.
But that's what you seem to be demanding of people, which is why these conversations on kink seem so endless, and you're always posting another question. And these discussions go 'round and 'round in circles, and just when one dies down, you put up another post, and every time it's as if you're experiencing the "wound" of the Other's inexplicability with all of the shock of the first time. (God, Lacan would have a field day with this. Because you're asking the Other to explain his jouissance! And the whole fact of the Other's enjoyment is that it's not something that can be explained rationally. ha ha! i think this makes you a hysteric (in the strictly freudian sense), but you should check with somebody who knows their theory better.)
Anyway, my advice is that you need to try to separate out the analysis from your own visceral reactions to things. The way you feel is perfectly understandable, but sweetie, you're never going to be able fully comprehend and be able to identify with or justify every possible human emotion. None of us have that range. And you need to accept that some people are going to like that things that you will never, ever like.
This is a completely different line of attack then trying to analyze the popularity of certain kinks in fandom. And the danger is -- and it's a danger everyone falls into, including myself -- is that everybody can't help but theorize from their own subject position, and assume their own kink is good and their own squicks are the constituitive exceptions. And it really requires some mental effort to stop yourself from doing this.
Because if you want to understand something, Reena, you can't be judging it at the same time. Isn't that how the cliche goes? Seek first to understand?
I say all this because I worry you are going to pop a vein in your temple, or something.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-04 03:58 pm (UTC)you are way too sane for me. *bows down*
thanks!! no, like, thanks!! really! i understand! (well, that's just such a loaded phrase right now, but!!)
SOHAPPY!! EEEEEE!! I GET IT NOW! or. something.
see i get -upset- (at the fic which bothers me and i'm like WAH ABOMINATION OF ICKINESS) but i don't want to be upset and i hate judging-- even if/when i do it!-- so i try to get away from it and--
you're saying i -can't- get away from it, if i'm understanding you correctly...!..!!
things will always bother me. like.
!!!!!!
YOU ARE A GENIUS!! <333333333333333333333
trying to be more articulate :>
Date: 2003-12-04 06:50 pm (UTC)I just remembered this! DUDE!!
I mean, I don't like it -because- of the mpreg-- they're just really sort of insanely cute & porny & snarky, but! Omg, ahahahahah :D :D
*slaps forehead* d'oh!! (so much even knowing what I like, apparently, ahahahah, um.)
See, the fic on veelainc was just-- badfic. Earnest schmoopy unrealistic OOC and all those things. -That's- what pissed me off, not the mpreg of it. Ha! Admittedly, there are some kinks I don't dig no matter how cute the... no, what am I saying. If it's cute, I'll buy it :> If it's got a certain characterization or writing style, I'll also buy any sort of yicky thing I generally don't like. It's all a question of presentation. If, for example, someone other than Maya wrote `Dark Side of Light', I probably would've hated it. As is, it disturbed me and challenged me and I can't say I -love- it, but it's still -Maya-, and I dig it. It was told to me in the right way. Just like you kind of said it in the right way, too.
I think the thing where you got me was,
and every time it's as if you're experiencing the "wound" of the Other's inexplicability with all of the shock of the first time.
'cause that's just a very striking insight into me and like, it almost made me cry. I -do- "forget" things I've learned, things I -know-, things I've felt-- from the way I like that mpreg rp to how just yesterday, I've been shocked about something very similar.
I say this on my lj (about this newness of vision), but I don't think people understand, 'cause I say it in such abstract terms. I'm always tripping over the world, and it always seems to wound me anew, almost like it's against my nature to be jaded even though I try to be sometimes. And part of what I -like- about how I react to things is how the emotion and analysis is mixed up (people like it when I do that in feedback, for instance), but it -does- trick me and work against me, mostly. I can never fully reconcile anything because I'm always trying to approach things from all directions at once, kind of helter-skelter.
Thank you so much for being so patient with me, man <3333333