~~ maybe we all miss the screaming :>
Dec. 2nd, 2003 02:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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isiscolo's post saying she's reading a Snape/Hermione & enjoying it. Well, this doesn't even come close to describing -my- pain, man. I had a Harry/Snape dream. I was Harry, and then I became a girl because I couldn't really -do- male/male sex and I panicked. Not to worry, I woke up before I could be actually traumatized, there. I mean. Do I get H/D dreams? Noooo. I have to be like, "omg, dream!Snape is so hotttt". Embarrassing. ('Course, the truth is, I'd go for Snape before Draco, ahahahah, um. Change subject!)
~~
I think what it comes down to is, there are some things I don't -want- to understand. So there are questions I return to, simply because the questions are easier to handle than any answer. I think people in general are well-known for avoiding certain aspects of reality and for not wanting to understand those aspects. Something about me makes me keep poking, though.
Getting off on others' or your own pain, for instance. On some level, I just don't -want- to get it. I can see that pain and pleasure can have a blurry physiological boundary in one's brain at some point-- but this doesn't apply to psychological pain, to another person's pain or tellingly, to fictional pain.
I understand that some people have drastically different mental landscapes and needs than I, and that on some level I will just never understand what it's really like to live a life made of choices that are truly alien to me. I'm not sure whether I should just make peace with that or whether I should keep trying to find that hidden point of contact. I do understand enjoying violence-- tied as that is with anger in my mind. I understand rage and the fear that can fuel it. Anger can be such a release, such a burst of endorphins and a heady feeling that one's invincible. There's a near-universal attraction to that, I think.
What I'm actually thinking about is-- people who want to hurt characters they love in their fiction, and this whole connection of love with the infliction of torture, mental or physical.
Now-- hurt/comfort, I can understand much more easily. There's a balance to it, a sort of nurturing instinct gone amok, perhaps. But I can't help but question the mental health of a writer who honestly takes pleasure in fictional character-torture. I realize that fiction is not reality. I still think that our fantasies reveal as much or more about us than our actions. Call me embarrassingly Freudian if you want, but I think most psychologists would agree that dreams and fantasies are important reflections of one's psyche, even if they'd place different amounts of emphasis on them. So all this talk of "it's just fiction" doesn't quite cut it for me.
Mind you, I'm not condemning-- just trying to work out my own issues here.
I wonder if Shakespeare got off on killing Romeo and Juliet and driving Ophelia insane. If Dickens really really liked keeping Pip from finding happiness. If Hugo had fun making Quasimodo's life hell, and so on. I mean, the idea seems almost laughable to me. When one has created a good character, they take on a life of their own. I would imagine that to hurt them would take something out of the writer-- and in fact, the writer would likely prefer not to, except that the story winds up demanding certain events. I know that it takes a deep toll on -me-, writing painful scenes. I simply -can't- enjoy being on the verge of a spontaneous depression-- but perhaps it's a matter of a widely divergent writing process. Perhaps if you enjoy putting your characters through hell, you don't really identify with them. Or you don't want anyone to be happy, really.
And that last idea, I must admit, somewhat concerns me. It's not that I have some issue with tragedy or character angst-- I write it, I read it, I admire it, etc. The issue is the writer's emotional relationship with the work. It seems like the idea of depicting suffering is to cause a sympathetic reaction in the reader (and most probably in the writer). The ancient Greeks apparently thought that tragedy was edifying-- that the response of pity and tears was the sign of creative success. One cries and learns something-- or laughs and learns something. Seeing human suffering and feeling pleasure-- and moreover, being meant to do so-- seems new in the history of the arts. But perhaps I am naive. I suppose the audiences to war epics were usually supposed to feel entertained rather than sickened-- but then, war was being shown as glorious, whereas mental agony is difficult to make glorious.
Even so, the phenomenon of "I love to see my darlings in pain" seems a whole different kettle of fish.
I just don't know. I think I'd need to actually do research for this. Thoughts?
isiscolo's post saying she's reading a Snape/Hermione & enjoying it. Well, this doesn't even come close to describing -my- pain, man. I had a Harry/Snape dream. I was Harry, and then I became a girl because I couldn't really -do- male/male sex and I panicked. Not to worry, I woke up before I could be actually traumatized, there. I mean. Do I get H/D dreams? Noooo. I have to be like, "omg, dream!Snape is so hotttt". Embarrassing. ('Course, the truth is, I'd go for Snape before Draco, ahahahah, um. Change subject!)~~
I think what it comes down to is, there are some things I don't -want- to understand. So there are questions I return to, simply because the questions are easier to handle than any answer. I think people in general are well-known for avoiding certain aspects of reality and for not wanting to understand those aspects. Something about me makes me keep poking, though.
Getting off on others' or your own pain, for instance. On some level, I just don't -want- to get it. I can see that pain and pleasure can have a blurry physiological boundary in one's brain at some point-- but this doesn't apply to psychological pain, to another person's pain or tellingly, to fictional pain.
I understand that some people have drastically different mental landscapes and needs than I, and that on some level I will just never understand what it's really like to live a life made of choices that are truly alien to me. I'm not sure whether I should just make peace with that or whether I should keep trying to find that hidden point of contact. I do understand enjoying violence-- tied as that is with anger in my mind. I understand rage and the fear that can fuel it. Anger can be such a release, such a burst of endorphins and a heady feeling that one's invincible. There's a near-universal attraction to that, I think.
What I'm actually thinking about is-- people who want to hurt characters they love in their fiction, and this whole connection of love with the infliction of torture, mental or physical.
Now-- hurt/comfort, I can understand much more easily. There's a balance to it, a sort of nurturing instinct gone amok, perhaps. But I can't help but question the mental health of a writer who honestly takes pleasure in fictional character-torture. I realize that fiction is not reality. I still think that our fantasies reveal as much or more about us than our actions. Call me embarrassingly Freudian if you want, but I think most psychologists would agree that dreams and fantasies are important reflections of one's psyche, even if they'd place different amounts of emphasis on them. So all this talk of "it's just fiction" doesn't quite cut it for me.
Mind you, I'm not condemning-- just trying to work out my own issues here.
I wonder if Shakespeare got off on killing Romeo and Juliet and driving Ophelia insane. If Dickens really really liked keeping Pip from finding happiness. If Hugo had fun making Quasimodo's life hell, and so on. I mean, the idea seems almost laughable to me. When one has created a good character, they take on a life of their own. I would imagine that to hurt them would take something out of the writer-- and in fact, the writer would likely prefer not to, except that the story winds up demanding certain events. I know that it takes a deep toll on -me-, writing painful scenes. I simply -can't- enjoy being on the verge of a spontaneous depression-- but perhaps it's a matter of a widely divergent writing process. Perhaps if you enjoy putting your characters through hell, you don't really identify with them. Or you don't want anyone to be happy, really.
And that last idea, I must admit, somewhat concerns me. It's not that I have some issue with tragedy or character angst-- I write it, I read it, I admire it, etc. The issue is the writer's emotional relationship with the work. It seems like the idea of depicting suffering is to cause a sympathetic reaction in the reader (and most probably in the writer). The ancient Greeks apparently thought that tragedy was edifying-- that the response of pity and tears was the sign of creative success. One cries and learns something-- or laughs and learns something. Seeing human suffering and feeling pleasure-- and moreover, being meant to do so-- seems new in the history of the arts. But perhaps I am naive. I suppose the audiences to war epics were usually supposed to feel entertained rather than sickened-- but then, war was being shown as glorious, whereas mental agony is difficult to make glorious.
Even so, the phenomenon of "I love to see my darlings in pain" seems a whole different kettle of fish.
I just don't know. I think I'd need to actually do research for this. Thoughts?
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no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 06:26 pm (UTC)*loves*
*beats on Draco some more*
*and more*
*and more*
Reena, I hurt them because I love them. :D
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 06:36 pm (UTC)*is a broken record*
But like. um. *looks shifty*
I seriously -don't- want to know why or anything else if it upsets you, y'know? *meeps again*
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 07:06 pm (UTC)I think people have a natural tendency to pathologize other people's kinks, but that doesn't mean I have to give into that and start providing "explanations."
I mean, my god. Human beings love to watch other human beings suffer. What do you think they came to see in the Roman colosseums? There would be no murder, or rape, or torture, or ANY of the horrible things that happen in this world if there wasn't someone somewhere who wanted to do them. I don't understand how you can profess yourself to be surprised at the fact that sadism and voyeurism are part of the human experience.
And I don't want to do these things. I would *never* advocate harm against another human being. But I can understand what motivates other people to want to, and I can find it interesting and titillating to explore these issues in a fictional context where no one is actually getting hurt.
I don't think anyone should have to apologize or justify their fantasy life. What's more, I think that choosing to acknowledge and explore these questions in a fictional context can often be a more moral and authentic response to fact that suffering exists in this world, than creating a fluffy-bunny fantasy land where no one suffers gratuitiously and every story has a happy ending.
In any event, I know exactly why I get off on certain things, and I know exactly how justified I am in being concerned with certain issues, and so I don't feel as if I should have to give any reason to anybody for writing about what I want to. I've spent a lot of time thinking about the ethics and aesthetics of representing trauma, suffering, and violence, and the fanfic I write is just one small part of this. And crappy as my fics may be, I think that they are as valid a response as any to the fact that life is complicated and people suffer and you cannot legislate what does and does not get people off. If what I write can turn somebody on but also makes them uncomfortable about doing so, because of the way I wrote the fic and the questions it forces the reader to confront, then I consider it a job well-done. I don't see that as something to be embarrassed about or apologize for. I'm proud of the fact that I made the reader aware of his/her own complicity with the text. And that I didn't gloss over and fetishize the nasty details. That I made them not know whether they should be titillated or appalled. Because those reactions aren't as far from each other as you're suggesting.
AND I LIKE HURTING MY CHARACTERS. There are actually some fairly transparent explanations for why people would like to hurt their characters, so I'm not going to insult you by filling in the obvious blanks.
Last thing: Just for the record, when I hear words like "hope" or "redemption," I reach for my gun.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 07:29 pm (UTC)I'd also want to separate suffering-for-kink vs. just-suffering. I've heard plenty of people say they like writing torturefic which just involves one kiss and then a grisly death, y'know. Or unfulfilled longing with no sexual content whatsoever. I was careful not to talk about getting off and just talking about enjoyment, because once you introduce sexuality into it it just seems to morph into something that plays by different rules.
Sadism is most definitely a part of the human experience, yes. But does it have a place in writing (forgoing porn for a second)? I dunno, I'm sure it does-- just as any other emotional state has a place in writing. Even so, it seems to be contrary to my admittely arbitrary ideal of having stories tell themselves through the writer-- which are a part of the writer but not exactly products of the writer's "issues". I mean... it's surprising how all these manic-depressive wife-beating psychos such as the history of literature's peppered with produced such sensitive, moving works, isn't it. I think that when one writes fiction, one moves past oneself somewhat-- or at least, accesses some deeper, more universally human aspect of oneself. Or maybe that's just a certain -sort- of writer (as I was saying, maybe my process is not other people's process).
As far as voyeurism, I dunno if that applies, as that seems to be overtly sexual. I myself dig on fics featuring this, and have written several, but it doesn't seem to have a solid relationship to angst and pain that I can immediately see :>
And, you know, sometimes I'm rather dense (especially when it comes to not seeing things under my nose 'cause I've gone off on a tangent), so feel free to tell me, I won't be offended~:)
Heheheh. Yeah, people overuse and abuse the whole hope-and-redemption shtick just as they overuse the torture-and-angst shtick. I like to think this is due to bad writing more than there being something intrinsically wrong with either set of concepts ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 07:47 pm (UTC)Examples:
It's one thing to enjoy the mental/physical suffering of some nameless slave. It's another to enjoy it in a character you care about and possibly identify with, it seems to me. Like, it's a different question. Okay, to you it is, to a lot of people it isn't.
I was careful not to talk about getting off and just talking about enjoyment, because once you introduce sexuality into it it just seems to morph into something that plays by different rules LOL, d00d, how on earth can you distinguish between sexual enjoyment and other kinds of enjoyment ... there is so much overlap, especially when we're talking about our libidinal investments in particular characters ...
Sadism is most definitely a part of the human experience, yes. But does it have a place in writing (forgoing porn for a second)? ... it seems to be contrary to my admittely arbitrary ideal of having stories tell themselves through the writer-- which are a part of the writer but not exactly products of the writer's "issues". Here you just lose me entirely. What makes sadism an "issue" and another thing not? Why do you insist on assuming that because you view certain things as qualitatively different from others, then everyone else does too? Why makes sadism something that needs to be transcended in order to produce art? What makes it *not* another "deep, universally human aspect" of experience? I mean, I don't care about defending sadism in particular here ... I'm just trying to point out how your logic is operating.
As far as voyeurism, I dunno if that applies, as that seems to be overtly sexual. I myself dig on fics featuring this, and have written several, but it doesn't seem to have a solid relationship to angst and pain that I can immediately see :>
Okay, and that's fine. But
Do you see what's going on here? I mean, I don't know how to deal with what you're arguing ... I just don't conceptualize things the way you do, and I'm not sure why I should have to justify myself according to *your* admittedly personal categories? Do you see what I'm saying? I don't speak your "language" ... I can listen to it and respect it and try to understand it, but I don't see how I can use it to convince or explain something to you that your very vocabulary and conceptual framework prohibits.
ok, that's enough use of my brain for one day. *sleeps*
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 08:56 pm (UTC)You're right, I've totally been having waaay the wrong mental framework, but! That's why I made this post-- 'cause while I do conceptualize in limited ways, I still want to break free and breathe the sweet air of enlightenment. Or at least confusion. 'Cause confusion's better than delusion. Or something -.-
I wasn't meaning for -you- to justify yourself, y'know... that makes it sound like an attack or me being self-righteous somehow... and okay, I realize I sometimes come off that way (I guess) but that's never ever my intention, y'know? It'd be against my principles ><
That's why I started off this post saying, "maybe there are some things I don't -want- to understand"-- because when I think about it for any length of time, I realize that there -are- mental blocks at work here, and I -am- aware of them. So I kind of want to chip away at them (which is why mostly I did say these were -my- issues I was going after).
I don't mean to apply some sort of ethics to the way people behave creatively, but maybe it's inevitable to some extent. It's hard to accept when one doesn't quite understand what exactly one's accepting, though. As far as what makes sadism an issue..... mostly it's just that I wanted to be sure that's what was happening. That the writers really were using those pathways, there. I always sort of suspected it, but wondered if there was just something I was missing, simply 'cause I didn't want to deal with it. You realize, most (angst or what have you) writers are much less conscious of their process & the whys and hows of their preferences than you are, too. Maybe there -is- no deeper reason than "it feels good", and it's just that our conceptions of pleasure are so different than I feel the need to dig deeper where I wouldn't with a fic about... I dunno... angry snogging or something ^^;
Creating issues where there are none, that's me :>
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 09:11 pm (UTC)Anyway, I'm not trying to convert you (okay, yes, I am, because everyone needs to be pervy with me, ...), but I'm glad I was able to frame this in a way that made sense for you.
I don't feel comfortable talking about sadism, simply because for me Sadism=Huge Body Of Theory I Haven't Read Yet. "Sadistic impulses," maybe. But I haven't delved all that deeply into the psychology of sadism ... maybe just 'cos people have so much to say about the politics and philosophy and blah blah blah of the sex in de Sade that they don't actually talk all that much about physical pleasure of the sex itself. more about the cultural implications and the freudian family drama and what not.
so basically all i can is yeah, sadism. it's out there. i have no insight into it deeper than that!
oh god, i'm not even making sense to myself anymore and i'm eating dinner as i type this ... i should probably go to bed soon ... :)
<333
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 10:11 pm (UTC)You know why I think I see it as an issue? Because while you distinctly separate "real" and "fiction"-- that is, behavior acceptable in regards to fiction vs. in regards to reality-- I don't, not in the same way. I see enjoyment of pain to be problematic in the same way with a relationship to fictional characters as real ones-- just not to the same degree. I wouldn't actually claim this terms of any foregone conclusion-- that's just my gut reaction. Mostly because I think in a lot of ways fiction has always been my reality. Sure, it's an escape from reality, but I've always paid more attention to it, was more constantly invested in it. Others' relationships with (their own and others') fiction (and also fanfiction) are different, and I don't always remember that. If anything, it's hard to remember when I don't know what those other relationships -are-, 'cause they're rarely discussed.
Is sadism indicative of... something? My instict would be to say that in real life, the psychology of consistent sadism is probably related to violence and is thus hinting of a sort of emotional empathic disconnect which implies intimacy issues & perhaps sociopathic tendencies. This is a very uneducated guess, heh. I do think that there are several levels to it-- the surface physical addiction and the immediate psychological pay-off and the deeper historical social aspects of the why. It's such a huge subject and one can easily wander away from the relatively narrow question of why do some people say they enjoy hurting their favorite characters. I mean, this is far, far away from actual sadism, heh. Oh man, it makes my head hurt ^^;
That's okay, we can not make sense together. Or something >:D
<3333!!
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 10:39 pm (UTC)It's just that certain things (like a pessimistic worldview) are pathologized, and others (like the need for a happy ending) aren't.
So real vs. fiction -- or serious engagement vs. escapism -- are categories that don't quite cover the issue for me.
I also have a problem with the language of sadism because I think that the pleasures of this kind of violent material are far more ambivalent than a term like "sadism" (as popularly understood) really covers. I mean, you could also make the argument that people were masochistic: they fall in love with characters because they identify with them, and hence use the characters to hurt themselves by proxy.
I mean, that's a pretty dumb argument, but I'm just trying to point out the inadequacy of these dichotomies to encompass all the different ways a reader (or writer) can relate to a text.
Anyway, I think we just perceive the world, and the self, and the role of art in mediating that relationship, really differently. I think being an adult means acknowledging that there is a lot of sad, dark, scary stuff out there in the world. And inside yourself, as well. And finding ways to deal with all this. To accept it and make a choice not to give into it (as much as that's even possible), basically.
I don't think it means denying that negative and destructive things exist at all -- whether in the world or inside ourselves. Or saying that they *shouldn't* exist. Or we shouldn't investigate them and try to understand the appeal they can have for some of us.
All this is just part of life, you know? You can't pretend it's not around just because you *wish* it weren't around.
(I think that JKR argues the very same thing in the books, actually. Although I don't imagine her coming out in favor of Snape/Harry noncon.)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-02 11:09 pm (UTC)I was never meaning to minimize the role of darkness in the world or within the self, you know. I mean, it's not like I just write happy-bunny fluff all the time-- clearly I can feel the attraction. This has never spread onto a conscious motivation to hurt some character I love. I mean, to me-- writing about pain is an exorcism or a journey or a process of investigation and an attempt at acceptance, yes. Simple enjoyment seems-- I dunno. Shallow, I guess? Something I associate with a squeeing sort of glee. I mean, setting out to write a fic going... "yeay, Draco's going to be dying from cancer, -fun-!!" seems... strange to me.
So it's not that I feel it's more "healthy" to avoid the darker things-- far from it. I guess some part of me just... isn't sure where to place an ambiguously positive relationship with mental pain (even your own) on the spectrum of human behavior. I mean, what to make of it? Why would people act this way? As far as I can tell, while it's semi-common among angstfic writers, this is a select group that seems at odds with the general populace. Do people in general enjoy seeing their favorites hurt? Yes, but they generally want them made "all better", too. This is all so complex, and especially if speaking about such diverse and large segments of the population, cross-culturally... it's a mess.
I mean... from that cackle of glee before writing a fanfic where Methos gets his nose & heart broken vs. the general kick viewers get out of the horrible things soap-opera stars go through (rape one week, being hit by a train the next). Maybe we just all deal with our fears and desire in different ways, eh? Some by sublimating them and some by fighting them and some by exploring them-- and maybe it's just that this fear/lust for death/pain/abandonment/etc is just always a factor, whatever one's response is. Sort of like sex, maybe? One can love it, crave it, hate it, be ashamed of it, be disgusted with it, etc, but one -deals- with it, one way or another. I mean, I would say being disgusted with it hints of "issues", but that's just me and my Western psychobabble background, too.
Anyway, I know you have a thing about people pretending that stuff doesn't exist, but I was really never wanting to go there-- I, for one, think that's silly. *scrabbles mutely at her mental box* :>