~~ maybe we all miss the screaming :>

[reenka]

Lasair just linked to isiscolo's post saying she's reading a Snape/Hermione & enjoying it. Well, this doesn't even come close to describing -my- pain, man. I had a Harry/Snape dream. I was Harry, and then I became a girl because I couldn't really -do- male/male sex and I panicked. Not to worry, I woke up before I could be actually traumatized, there. I mean. Do I get H/D dreams? Noooo. I have to be like, "omg, dream!Snape is so hotttt". Embarrassing. ('Course, the truth is, I'd go for Snape before Draco, ahahahah, um. Change subject!)
~~

I think what it comes down to is, there are some things I don't -want- to understand. So there are questions I return to, simply because the questions are easier to handle than any answer. I think people in general are well-known for avoiding certain aspects of reality and for not wanting to understand those aspects. Something about me makes me keep poking, though.

Getting off on others' or your own pain, for instance. On some level, I just don't -want- to get it. I can see that pain and pleasure can have a blurry physiological boundary in one's brain at some point-- but this doesn't apply to psychological pain, to another person's pain or tellingly, to fictional pain.

I understand that some people have drastically different mental landscapes and needs than I, and that on some level I will just never understand what it's really like to live a life made of choices that are truly alien to me. I'm not sure whether I should just make peace with that or whether I should keep trying to find that hidden point of contact. I do understand enjoying violence-- tied as that is with anger in my mind. I understand rage and the fear that can fuel it. Anger can be such a release, such a burst of endorphins and a heady feeling that one's invincible. There's a near-universal attraction to that, I think.

What I'm actually thinking about is-- people who want to hurt characters they love in their fiction, and this whole connection of love with the infliction of torture, mental or physical.


Now-- hurt/comfort, I can understand much more easily. There's a balance to it, a sort of nurturing instinct gone amok, perhaps. But I can't help but question the mental health of a writer who honestly takes pleasure in fictional character-torture. I realize that fiction is not reality. I still think that our fantasies reveal as much or more about us than our actions. Call me embarrassingly Freudian if you want, but I think most psychologists would agree that dreams and fantasies are important reflections of one's psyche, even if they'd place different amounts of emphasis on them. So all this talk of "it's just fiction" doesn't quite cut it for me.

Mind you, I'm not condemning-- just trying to work out my own issues here.

I wonder if Shakespeare got off on killing Romeo and Juliet and driving Ophelia insane. If Dickens really really liked keeping Pip from finding happiness. If Hugo had fun making Quasimodo's life hell, and so on. I mean, the idea seems almost laughable to me. When one has created a good character, they take on a life of their own. I would imagine that to hurt them would take something out of the writer-- and in fact, the writer would likely prefer not to, except that the story winds up demanding certain events. I know that it takes a deep toll on -me-, writing painful scenes. I simply -can't- enjoy being on the verge of a spontaneous depression-- but perhaps it's a matter of a widely divergent writing process. Perhaps if you enjoy putting your characters through hell, you don't really identify with them. Or you don't want anyone to be happy, really.

And that last idea, I must admit, somewhat concerns me. It's not that I have some issue with tragedy or character angst-- I write it, I read it, I admire it, etc. The issue is the writer's emotional relationship with the work. It seems like the idea of depicting suffering is to cause a sympathetic reaction in the reader (and most probably in the writer). The ancient Greeks apparently thought that tragedy was edifying-- that the response of pity and tears was the sign of creative success. One cries and learns something-- or laughs and learns something. Seeing human suffering and feeling pleasure-- and moreover, being meant to do so-- seems new in the history of the arts. But perhaps I am naive. I suppose the audiences to war epics were usually supposed to feel entertained rather than sickened-- but then, war was being shown as glorious, whereas mental agony is difficult to make glorious.

Even so, the phenomenon of "I love to see my darlings in pain" seems a whole different kettle of fish.

I just don't know. I think I'd need to actually do research for this. Thoughts?

Comments

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think I walk a thin line between just wanting to accept though understanding and actually needing to assign some system of psychological classification. Like... clearly Dostoyevsky had issues and was depressive, y'know. While he still wrote works of great literary merit, the fact remains that his "issues" stain them for better or for worse. At first glance, the idea of wanting to hurt one's favorites goes agains the grain to me 'cause loving a character means I would want them to be as happy as possible (in general rather than in any particular fic), for me.

You know why I think I see it as an issue? Because while you distinctly separate "real" and "fiction"-- that is, behavior acceptable in regards to fiction vs. in regards to reality-- I don't, not in the same way. I see enjoyment of pain to be problematic in the same way with a relationship to fictional characters as real ones-- just not to the same degree. I wouldn't actually claim this terms of any foregone conclusion-- that's just my gut reaction. Mostly because I think in a lot of ways fiction has always been my reality. Sure, it's an escape from reality, but I've always paid more attention to it, was more constantly invested in it. Others' relationships with (their own and others') fiction (and also fanfiction) are different, and I don't always remember that. If anything, it's hard to remember when I don't know what those other relationships -are-, 'cause they're rarely discussed.

Is sadism indicative of... something? My instict would be to say that in real life, the psychology of consistent sadism is probably related to violence and is thus hinting of a sort of emotional empathic disconnect which implies intimacy issues & perhaps sociopathic tendencies. This is a very uneducated guess, heh. I do think that there are several levels to it-- the surface physical addiction and the immediate psychological pay-off and the deeper historical social aspects of the why. It's such a huge subject and one can easily wander away from the relatively narrow question of why do some people say they enjoy hurting their favorite characters. I mean, this is far, far away from actual sadism, heh. Oh man, it makes my head hurt ^^;

That's okay, we can not make sense together. Or something >:D
<3333!!

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing is that EVERYONE's "issues" colors their work. I mean, "hope 'n' redemption" is a kink like anything else.

It's just that certain things (like a pessimistic worldview) are pathologized, and others (like the need for a happy ending) aren't.

So real vs. fiction -- or serious engagement vs. escapism -- are categories that don't quite cover the issue for me.

I also have a problem with the language of sadism because I think that the pleasures of this kind of violent material are far more ambivalent than a term like "sadism" (as popularly understood) really covers. I mean, you could also make the argument that people were masochistic: they fall in love with characters because they identify with them, and hence use the characters to hurt themselves by proxy.

I mean, that's a pretty dumb argument, but I'm just trying to point out the inadequacy of these dichotomies to encompass all the different ways a reader (or writer) can relate to a text.

Anyway, I think we just perceive the world, and the self, and the role of art in mediating that relationship, really differently. I think being an adult means acknowledging that there is a lot of sad, dark, scary stuff out there in the world. And inside yourself, as well. And finding ways to deal with all this. To accept it and make a choice not to give into it (as much as that's even possible), basically.

I don't think it means denying that negative and destructive things exist at all -- whether in the world or inside ourselves. Or saying that they *shouldn't* exist. Or we shouldn't investigate them and try to understand the appeal they can have for some of us.

All this is just part of life, you know? You can't pretend it's not around just because you *wish* it weren't around.

(I think that JKR argues the very same thing in the books, actually. Although I don't imagine her coming out in favor of Snape/Harry noncon.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Me, I'm always trying to figure it out-- 'cause like... my worldview is flexible and in flux, y'know. I don't always think/say the same thing. In fact, people keep accusing me of contradicting myself too much (as well as being self-righteous-- go figure). So I'm all, yeayexcited that you're willing to challenge me on these things. I wish more people were as brave & articulate about what they perceive as you are >:D

I was never meaning to minimize the role of darkness in the world or within the self, you know. I mean, it's not like I just write happy-bunny fluff all the time-- clearly I can feel the attraction. This has never spread onto a conscious motivation to hurt some character I love. I mean, to me-- writing about pain is an exorcism or a journey or a process of investigation and an attempt at acceptance, yes. Simple enjoyment seems-- I dunno. Shallow, I guess? Something I associate with a squeeing sort of glee. I mean, setting out to write a fic going... "yeay, Draco's going to be dying from cancer, -fun-!!" seems... strange to me.

So it's not that I feel it's more "healthy" to avoid the darker things-- far from it. I guess some part of me just... isn't sure where to place an ambiguously positive relationship with mental pain (even your own) on the spectrum of human behavior. I mean, what to make of it? Why would people act this way? As far as I can tell, while it's semi-common among angstfic writers, this is a select group that seems at odds with the general populace. Do people in general enjoy seeing their favorites hurt? Yes, but they generally want them made "all better", too. This is all so complex, and especially if speaking about such diverse and large segments of the population, cross-culturally... it's a mess.

I mean... from that cackle of glee before writing a fanfic where Methos gets his nose & heart broken vs. the general kick viewers get out of the horrible things soap-opera stars go through (rape one week, being hit by a train the next). Maybe we just all deal with our fears and desire in different ways, eh? Some by sublimating them and some by fighting them and some by exploring them-- and maybe it's just that this fear/lust for death/pain/abandonment/etc is just always a factor, whatever one's response is. Sort of like sex, maybe? One can love it, crave it, hate it, be ashamed of it, be disgusted with it, etc, but one -deals- with it, one way or another. I mean, I would say being disgusted with it hints of "issues", but that's just me and my Western psychobabble background, too.

Anyway, I know you have a thing about people pretending that stuff doesn't exist, but I was really never wanting to go there-- I, for one, think that's silly. *scrabbles mutely at her mental box* :>