~~ me and my meta kink issues :>

[reenka]

Reading tinderblast's, switchknife's & cathexys' thread about `Prisonnier de Guerre' finally addressed an issue I'd been curious about for quite some time, but particularly after my wibbly post about people's apparent enjoyment ("ooh, sexy") of amanuensis1's `And Just Plain Wrong'.

I find myself lost when people claim to like a (sexual) scenario on fiction that they -despise- in reality. Mostly because I tend to approach escapist fiction from the "god, I wish this were true" angle-- I -want- there to be wizards, mind-bonds, insane monarchs with huge destinies, star-crossed lovers, talking horses, aliens and so on. If I love a story, usually it's because I feel it is true, or can be true, or should be true. With stories using "dangerous" sexual kinks, clearly this becomes fuzzy for some people, because this interacts much more directly with something that -can- easily be real (more directly than wizards), which is to say, sex. So maybe unlike other sorts of fantasies (which one can go through life wanting safely, knowing they're untouchable), sexual kinks in fiction invoke the readers' sense of personal ethics, thus triggering a split between their Id (which goes berzerk with lust) and their Superego, which disapproves. Which is why the distinction between fantasy and reality suddenly becomes a conflicted one (instead of "I wish this were true but it isn't and I know that" it's "I wish this were true but not real").

Generally, I don't really -enjoy- disturbing stories (horrific rather than dark) in the escapist "mmm, yummy" sense. It seems to be a contradiction-- enjoyment and horror, unless it's grotesque horror which is so unbelievable as to be play. Perhaps I should read more horror fics to get a better grip on this phenomenon, and then I'd understand the (sexual) appeal of the horrific on a more intuitive level.

It especially all clicked into place with tinderblast's comment about realism introducing a "clear moral element" to the suffering in a fic, and the idea in general that realism brings the fiction just that much closer to "reality", where people's ideas of right and wrong and rooted (well, other people's moreso than mine, heh). I'd written a non-con H/D once (that I hated writing), `As Good As He Got', which a number of people who like non-con didn't find hot, and I got the sense that this was because I went for psychological realism more than anything else.


I think this is clear to me now-- to me, the purpose of writing anything that disturbs me in reality would be to poke at it, to represent it in a cathartic or illuminating manner. Using it in fiction without any overt reference to its true nature-- on purpose-- seems counter-intuitive to me. I mean, kink-fic isn't exactly meant to be "literature", but I can't really separate that way. To me, anything written is literature and the same impulses and psychological ground applies to its writing. Personally, my writing-style remains what it is whether I write a PWP or a character study or a plotty novella. It shifts due to mood but not really due to realism of subject, generally. I can't write anything using characters I consciously -know- are "fake", characters I -know- would never act this way and I wouldn't want them to in "reality", or whatever that is when it comes to fanfic (canon-reality?). The characters -are- the characters, and that's -it-, 'cause my own vision of them remains constant.

So this idea of "fantasized fic-space" and "realist fic-space" that separates realist fiction from "other" makes no sense on an intuitive level, the same way it'd make no sense to write a non-parody fic you -know- is out-of-character. And yet, I do understand how this works now, I think, and why -I- can't do it (which illuminates me even more). I think it has to do with people being able to separate themselves from the "reality" of whatever character they're "using" sexually. I can't. To me, for instance, Harry is always Harry and he is very very real. If I hurt him in my head through reading it or writing it, I will bleed. There is little to no emotional separation for me between "fantasy" and "reality"-- so the moral or theoretical separation is almost irrelevant. But, for people with a weaker emotional investment in stories and a less intense investment in the make-believe world-- yes, I can see how it can be a sort of surface kink-level escapism (where they take along their libido and leave their frontal lobe behind), whereas for me it's a sort of mind-heart-and-body full escapist experience all the time, heh.

So cathexys' idea of realism being "counterindicative of kink and hotness" really seems vital to my understanding. But I think this depends on what your kink is, too, whether it's something you're conflicted about or not. My kinks (in sexual-romance fic, anyway) tend not to be dark, and a lot of them I wouldn't even call sexual and more romantic. For instance, one of the more disturbing things about `And Just Plain Wrong' and `Prisonnier de Guerre' is that they're both hurting Harry and generally that makes me ill and upset, but the H/D bits in them-- where it's Draco hurting Harry and not Snape or Lucius or whoever-- that's where I'm no longer just distressed. I'm enjoying it, and not even seeing it as torture, quite-- in my mind, there's a very strong association with conflict/violence between Harry&Draco being enjoyable, positive even. Because while Draco is lashing out at Harry (or vice versa), a part of me thinks all's right with the world.

When it comes to H/D, my kink is Harry or Draco's anger/passion/hate/need-- so if either of them displays it, it just hits my button and there I am, rooting for them. So if you're going to upset me with an H/D fic, it's going to have to be passionless, devoid of any emotional force-- coldly manipulative, basically. I don't think that's very believable, but that'd what it'd have to be, and I don't mean it'd be sexual, even. I get really disturbed and upset by the H/D dynamic in ishuca's `Plague of Legends', and it really seems to undercut my happy little fantasy world H/D-happy-place because they're "together" but it's a sham-- Draco is emotionally using Harry and Harry is allowing himself to be used. It's not about their desire or anger or need, it's about fear and powerlessness on both sides (at least up until chapter 11, where I'd stopped). Basically, I see their lust, their whole dynamic being made a -lie-, some sort of artificial (fantasy-like!) construct, and that ruins it for me.

Then again, I'm all 100% behind my fantasies, even if they're "wrong". Because hotness = goodness. Obviously, I'm just naive and sadly underdeveloped emotionally, but it all works out in the end because all I really want is for the hot boys (or "other" as the case may be) to snog and be happy. Awwwww.

Comments

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

As a writer, I can only write violent situations with as much realism as I can muster. I think it's a copout to fetishize and aestheticize violence, and the idea that people would come down in favor of crappy, campy kinkfics over stories that take their subject seriously makes no sense at all to me.

Maybe, also, I just take writing good stories seriously. Rather than pairings or getting off. And I think it's only fair to judge other stories that way, too. I think it's kind of offensive to criticize other readers or writers for liking material that is both disturbing and arousing. These are very classic human responses to unsettling material. Life is complicated, so there's nothing wrong with making stories complicated as well, or writing stories that provoke complicated responses in the reader. That's just as valid as anything else.

And I guess I'm just interested in writing fic that takes place in the real world, and which lives up to the criteria of what good fiction should be in the real world. Which means challenging and ambiguous and interesting. Not fetishizing sexual violence so that fangirls can get off. Which I personally don't find ethically supportable, but what do I know?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I wasn't trying to criticize people for liking whatever, you know that, right? Only trying to understand. The idea that fantasy-space makes unacceptable things acceptable does make sense to me... I mean, I don't know, because maybe my responses are too simplistic(?)
But I was thinking about how people -don't- find "realistic" non-con hot in fiction while they find more unrealistic non-con to be a fetish scenario they'd actually look for. And that seemed interesting to me, because it implies certain things about how people read fics, in a way. I guess I didn't really get into the whole idea of "how do we read", but it's a question that fascinates me. The idea that there are differences.

I take good writing seriously too, but I do find that pairings/kinks/scenario biases are an emotional component that's hard to ignore. While the quality of writing itself is an intellectual aesthetic, the others could be seen as an emotional aesthetic, maybe?

As far as the disturbing being also arousing.... I haven't found that to be the most common response. Usually, it seems that people are not that disturbed by the thing that arouses them. Sometimes it does coincide, but have you found it to be prevalent?

I mean, I wasn't saying it was invalid. I question things but that doesn't mean I judge them, really. I mean, maybe one can't escape judgement to a certain degree, but to assume I judge things one way or the other makes me uncomfortable, because I guess I'm just always uncertain. When I myself am unsettled, I'm rarely aroused or fascinated in a positive way-- like I said, I've never been into horror books/movies/etc and maybe I should explore them more to understand the attraction better.

I'm interested in writing things as I see them, though I don't know if that corresponds to "the real world" directly. Like, I'm not sure what the "real world" is, exactly, because people's perceptions of "reality" differ so much, and there's nothing saying that what I see as reality isn't just an illusion. I don't know if "fantasy" has to equal unambiguous and not challenging-- to me, fantasy just means "another reality". There's such a thing as -surreal- fiction, but that's also a commentary on reality-- I mean, even a transcription of an LSD trip could be seen as a commentary on reality. There have been several movies made with that premise.

But now I've gotten totally off-subject. I also think that fetishizing violence isn't always a cop-out-- like for instance, American and Japanese action movies and comics. They have all this unrealistic violence, and that's an interesting cultural phenomenon, isn't it, if one doesn't judge it but just studies it? I mean, you can approach any subject from many angles-- by subverting it and trying to translate it directly and metaphorically representing it and making a fable, even. They would all be commentaries on the same thing, just told differently because stories have so many different sorts of languages they could use.

This reminds me of my post-modern crit. professor saying that it's impossible to truly represent "Reality" and that's why there were all those 50s/60s books like `Gravity's Rainbow' and `Catch-22', trying to represent by allusion rather than translation. I don't know if I agree that it's impossible, but I do think that by being too certain of what you're saying, you're going to say less instead of more. Though I'm not entirely sure how that works~:)

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

I read "And Just Plain Wrong" recently, I don't remember why, and while I understand people like kink...I can't say I feel better for having had the experience. It was kind of like a train wreck where you're unable to look away as someone you know is burning to death or something. There was a morbid fascination that made it so I couldn't quit reading, but I felt pretty yucky after it was over. And then I couldn't get it out of my head, and just felt generally icky for quite a while afterward.

One might think this means I have learned not to read things I'm pretty sure I won't like, but if I haven't learned it yet, I'm unlikely to.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing is... one could read things that are horrific, for the point of "well, this disturbs me, and maybe I could draw conclusions from that" or something. The idea of being aroused & horrified is ...unnatural to me, but it does interest me in others :>
And I try not to read things that'd disturb me too, but well, I think it's just kind of like picking at a scab. It's just so -there-, heh~:)
Though I do like questioning my reactions and those of others, in order to understand better. Which is kind of like another sort of scab :>

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

great post...and you finally got me off my butt to write this all together as a kind of summary post on virgule...so all i have to say is there (http://www.livejournal.com/community/virgule/15511.html?style=mine) :-)

and yes, i totally agree that at the heart of the matter lies when realistic unsettling and sexual arousal meet...b/c i know i can read horrific stuff...ten years on the holocaust saw to that...it's the sexualization that gets problematic...

Eh, and isn't fanon slightly scaring you when you can write lines like that's where I'm no longer just distressed. I'm enjoying it, and not even seeing it as torture, quite-- in my mind, there's a very strong association between conflict/violence between Harry&Draco being enjoyable, positive even. Because while Draco is lashing out at Harry (or vice versa), a part of me thinks all's right with the world.???

I mean, when we step back from our little corner of the universe that sounds majorly fucked up, doesn't it???

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on what you're trying to do. I personally have to have that element of realism in stories otherwise as I read I start rolling my eyes and thinking "Even with magic, that's going to cause tearing and ow! ow! ow! Kidneys! Don't you know anything about bondage and S&M?"

Some of it comes down to, outside of actual experience, the fact that I don't understand the need to fetishize violence and sex together (though I'm not above the adrenaline rush of a good fight scene, but those usually don't include the sexual component unless the observer decides to add in that element to their interpretation). Especially when both the violence and sex aren't consensual. Usually I just write it off that people are using character A and character B as substitutes from themselves and someone else. But that only works on an author-story level -- not on a reader-story level or even, for me, a reader-story-author level. If I write violence, I write it because it's real, with real repercussions and consequences and actually part of the world JKR gives us (a very deep, underground part) not because it's hot or it turns me on. It usually does the opposite.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I was reading an article recently that pointed out that horror fiction tends to get way more over the top than film because it lacks the kind of realism film has because it's able to just show something. So, the article said, it's not just a serial killer but he kills 4-year-olds! With a spoon! And rapes them! And eats them!

What I think part of it is is that being able to write realistic violence is very difficult. You can easily write about something violent in a way that sounds aesthetically pleasing--like fics where Draco tries to commit suicide by slitting his wrists only to have pretty dark blood spill out and form a lovely puddle on the floor around his lovely blond head while he goes to sleep. This isn't at all what it would be really like to bleed to death. I think there's a very recognizeable world of in-between violence in fiction because of that.

Maybe that's why so often when I read a fic that has any kind of violence in it I usually think it's fake. Like where somebody bites the other person's lip until they taste blood? That immediately becomes a sort of metaphor for me because in reality that would end the kiss right there: "WTF?!! I would say. FUCKING OUCH!!" The words are so pretty it's almost like you have to get more and more violent just to suggest the violence. I think there are probably very few writers able to write about true S&M experience. Those who are actually into it could, of course, but even they might not write for realism. I'm not even talking about psychological realism here (though if the characters seem divorced from what's going on and aren't acting in a way that makes sense the fic sucks, period) but just a physical realism.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eeep. That was a great summary (that you linked to). Makes me feel like I was frying really small and not-very-well-articulated fish with this particular post. Though, I mean... there are all these -questions- and very few -answers-, which... bothers me. Isn't someone going to break this down for me sometime? *laughs* Maybe it's just that very simple thing where there's such a thing as "hardcore" and "softcore"-- if you're hardcore, you're going to like it being as realistic and "dirty" as possible, with all the details and the essence of reality. People think they don't want it in "real life", but as I said, that's superego. Basically? I'm saying that it's a contradiction, and a part of them -does- want it (while another part of them doesn't, obviously).

I mean, that's probably hard to swallow, but it's really the only conclusion I can possibly come up with. I'm not saying it's directly correlated to "I want to be in Harry's shoes" in the case of these stories-- but something about the emotional valance here appeals the way S&M appeals to people while they wouldn't want to be actually captured by the Spanish Inquisition, y'know? On the other hand, I do think a part of them -would- want to be captured. It's like... wanting some but not all. If only we could de-claw reality and make it all "okay" and palatable (pain while retaining control of how long and how much, for instance). So that one's kinks don't overwhelm one? Maybe that's what this is about. Control gained by fantasies of losing it?

Yeah, that really disturbed me. How I could look back and realize, hey wait-- I -liked- the H/D bits in these fics. What does that say about me and about the people who liked those fics whole? Is it just that I'm so obsessed with H/D and that's -my- kink and they're more into H/S or H/L and there was more of that in that fic so bingo, they were hooked? Is it that easy? Would I be much more open to ignoring the moral implications just that much more if it was giving me the sugar I needed on the side?

I mean... it sounds majorly fucked up to me to enjoy either of those fics ON ANY LEVEL. I mean, intuitively. And yet, I enjoyed the H/D bits. I think maybe it's just that whole thing where we think there are these thick boundaries we can't cross into horror, but secretly the darkness has been inside us all along, and some people are just more in touch with it. I'm not sure.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

thanks...i did it b/c of your post that really rised all the important issues...as for your own kinks...it's unsettling to realize that things get you off that really shouldn't...and even more unsettling that you hadn't even noticed how wrong it was b/c it *was* your kink :-)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I didn't mean to imply that the "kink" in question has to be violence-related. I mean... non-con isn't violent, exactly, and incest isn't violent, exactly, and so on. I'm not sure how this works to the point where I can empathize either-- that is to say, I don't tend to lust after things in fiction I disapprove of in real life-- but I do think that sometimes people's motivations become conflicted. Like, it's not so straightforward, you know. There's a difference between fetishizing something in fic & in real life, and possibly, different things are extracted from doing it in story form vs. real life. In stories, it could become more metaphorical, more of a stand-in for complicated series of desires rather than this stark painful event.

I'm not sure, because I tend to love psychological realism more than anything that could possibly be a kink, but then, that's me. And if I just talk about -me-, people start thinking I'm disenfranchizing them, whereas I just feel uneducated.
If I write things that disturb me (violence or something else), I tend to think about consequences and reperecussions, yes. But the point of the two stories I references in particular was that they too, confronted their subject-matter (serial rape and torture and deprivation) realistically to a high enough extent that I couldn't see it as being very "kinky". And yet! In both cases it was intended to be and was partially received as "hot" by some readers.

-That's- what concerns me. This was mostly a reader-response question, which I possibly didn't make clear...?
Because what happens when it -does- have real repercussions and consequences in the fic, and it's even acknowledged by some particular reader (and the writer), but the kink-factor remains just as strong. It's problematic for me, and yet I still want to understand it, you know~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I see what you're saying, but the two fics I was thinking of were interesting -because- they achieved a sort of psychological realism, at least, and that's why the reader-response to them concerned me. Did I get that across? (I never know!)
In both these fics, Harry's being convincingly tortured, and it's not really -seen as hot- by the actual -pov character- in question. It's seen as hot by the -writer- and some of the -readers-.

So yeah, you can have unrealistic things that break the flow in a more fantasy-based fic, but that's a more common problem-- a lot of people are willing to just suspend their disbelief because there's the pay-off. But in a fic which -tries- to bring the reader back to reality by showing the ugly side of things, it becomes more problematic to still encounter this forceful suepension of "belief", maybe? Because how does it work, realizing something is awful and yet -still enjoying it-? That's what I was wondering.

If you think "ouch" and are startled out of the story, that's one thing. I think it's rather common. One expects it's also rather common to -not- think "ouch" and just blithely smile in bliss at the hotness. But what if you think "ouch" and still are in bliss at the hotness? Then it's something else altogether, isn't it-- being a kinkfic in the first place, especially. And the boundaries between fantasy and reality become just that much more tricky to navigate, it seems to me. :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah! Now I see what you're saying.

I suspect if I had that reaction I'd probably find it interesting whatever misgivings I had about whether it was a good thing or not. (I'm amazingly blase when it comes to kinks because I rarely assume they have to do with actually wanting to do the things described.) I guess I'd want to know, if the person could tell me, exactly what they found hot about it. Or what I found hot about it if it were me. I remember a long time ago having a similar reaction to a fic but I can't remember what it was. It wasn't violence but I distinctly remember that same kind of thing, being turned on and offended or repulsed at the same time. Eventually I think I decided it was almost like indulging a fear in a safe way. This was something I almost lived in fear of in an unconscious way so maybe making it pleasurable felt good or something? Like when people find the violence hot are they identifying with the abuser or the victim? Because it seems like either one could be tapping into a part of themselves they might naturally repress or fear and so get off on reading it in the story...?