~~ me and my meta kink issues :>
Nov. 22nd, 2003 02:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaReading ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
tinderblast's, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-syndicated.gif)
switchknife's & cathexys' thread about `Prisonnier de Guerre' finally addressed an issue I'd been curious about for quite some time, but particularly after my wibbly post about people's apparent enjoyment ("ooh, sexy") of amanuensis1's `And Just Plain Wrong'.
I find myself lost when people claim to like a (sexual) scenario on fiction that they -despise- in reality. Mostly because I tend to approach escapist fiction from the "god, I wish this were true" angle-- I -want- there to be wizards, mind-bonds, insane monarchs with huge destinies, star-crossed lovers, talking horses, aliens and so on. If I love a story, usually it's because I feel it is true, or can be true, or should be true. With stories using "dangerous" sexual kinks, clearly this becomes fuzzy for some people, because this interacts much more directly with something that -can- easily be real (more directly than wizards), which is to say, sex. So maybe unlike other sorts of fantasies (which one can go through life wanting safely, knowing they're untouchable), sexual kinks in fiction invoke the readers' sense of personal ethics, thus triggering a split between their Id (which goes berzerk with lust) and their Superego, which disapproves. Which is why the distinction between fantasy and reality suddenly becomes a conflicted one (instead of "I wish this were true but it isn't and I know that" it's "I wish this were true but not real").
Generally, I don't really -enjoy- disturbing stories (horrific rather than dark) in the escapist "mmm, yummy" sense. It seems to be a contradiction-- enjoyment and horror, unless it's grotesque horror which is so unbelievable as to be play. Perhaps I should read more horror fics to get a better grip on this phenomenon, and then I'd understand the (sexual) appeal of the horrific on a more intuitive level.
It especially all clicked into place withtinderblast's comment about realism introducing a "clear moral element" to the suffering in a fic, and the idea in general that realism brings the fiction just that much closer to "reality", where people's ideas of right and wrong and rooted (well, other people's moreso than mine, heh). I'd written a non-con H/D once (that I hated writing), `As Good As He Got', which a number of people who like non-con didn't find hot, and I got the sense that this was because I went for psychological realism more than anything else.
I think this is clear to me now-- to me, the purpose of writing anything that disturbs me in reality would be to poke at it, to represent it in a cathartic or illuminating manner. Using it in fiction without any overt reference to its true nature-- on purpose-- seems counter-intuitive to me. I mean, kink-fic isn't exactly meant to be "literature", but I can't really separate that way. To me, anything written is literature and the same impulses and psychological ground applies to its writing. Personally, my writing-style remains what it is whether I write a PWP or a character study or a plotty novella. It shifts due to mood but not really due to realism of subject, generally. I can't write anything using characters I consciously -know- are "fake", characters I -know- would never act this way and I wouldn't want them to in "reality", or whatever that is when it comes to fanfic (canon-reality?). The characters -are- the characters, and that's -it-, 'cause my own vision of them remains constant.
So this idea of "fantasized fic-space" and "realist fic-space" that separates realist fiction from "other" makes no sense on an intuitive level, the same way it'd make no sense to write a non-parody fic you -know- is out-of-character. And yet, I do understand how this works now, I think, and why -I- can't do it (which illuminates me even more). I think it has to do with people being able to separate themselves from the "reality" of whatever character they're "using" sexually. I can't. To me, for instance, Harry is always Harry and he is very very real. If I hurt him in my head through reading it or writing it, I will bleed. There is little to no emotional separation for me between "fantasy" and "reality"-- so the moral or theoretical separation is almost irrelevant. But, for people with a weaker emotional investment in stories and a less intense investment in the make-believe world-- yes, I can see how it can be a sort of surface kink-level escapism (where they take along their libido and leave their frontal lobe behind), whereas for me it's a sort of mind-heart-and-body full escapist experience all the time, heh.
Socathexys' idea of realism being "counterindicative of kink and hotness" really seems vital to my understanding. But I think this depends on what your kink is, too, whether it's something you're conflicted about or not. My kinks (in sexual-romance fic, anyway) tend not to be dark, and a lot of them I wouldn't even call sexual and more romantic. For instance, one of the more disturbing things about `And Just Plain Wrong' and `Prisonnier de Guerre' is that they're both hurting Harry and generally that makes me ill and upset, but the H/D bits in them-- where it's Draco hurting Harry and not Snape or Lucius or whoever-- that's where I'm no longer just distressed. I'm enjoying it, and not even seeing it as torture, quite-- in my mind, there's a very strong association with conflict/violence between Harry&Draco being enjoyable, positive even. Because while Draco is lashing out at Harry (or vice versa), a part of me thinks all's right with the world.
When it comes to H/D, my kink is Harry or Draco's anger/passion/hate/need-- so if either of them displays it, it just hits my button and there I am, rooting for them. So if you're going to upset me with an H/D fic, it's going to have to be passionless, devoid of any emotional force-- coldly manipulative, basically. I don't think that's very believable, but that'd what it'd have to be, and I don't mean it'd be sexual, even. I get really disturbed and upset by the H/D dynamic inishuca's `Plague of Legends', and it really seems to undercut my happy little fantasy world H/D-happy-place because they're "together" but it's a sham-- Draco is emotionally using Harry and Harry is allowing himself to be used. It's not about their desire or anger or need, it's about fear and powerlessness on both sides (at least up until chapter 11, where I'd stopped). Basically, I see their lust, their whole dynamic being made a -lie-, some sort of artificial (fantasy-like!) construct, and that ruins it for me.
Then again, I'm all 100% behind my fantasies, even if they're "wrong". Because hotness = goodness. Obviously, I'm just naive and sadly underdeveloped emotionally, but it all works out in the end because all I really want is for the hot boys (or "other" as the case may be) to snog and be happy. Awwwww.
tinderblast's, switchknife's & cathexys' thread about `Prisonnier de Guerre' finally addressed an issue I'd been curious about for quite some time, but particularly after my wibbly post about people's apparent enjoyment ("ooh, sexy") of amanuensis1's `And Just Plain Wrong'.I find myself lost when people claim to like a (sexual) scenario on fiction that they -despise- in reality. Mostly because I tend to approach escapist fiction from the "god, I wish this were true" angle-- I -want- there to be wizards, mind-bonds, insane monarchs with huge destinies, star-crossed lovers, talking horses, aliens and so on. If I love a story, usually it's because I feel it is true, or can be true, or should be true. With stories using "dangerous" sexual kinks, clearly this becomes fuzzy for some people, because this interacts much more directly with something that -can- easily be real (more directly than wizards), which is to say, sex. So maybe unlike other sorts of fantasies (which one can go through life wanting safely, knowing they're untouchable), sexual kinks in fiction invoke the readers' sense of personal ethics, thus triggering a split between their Id (which goes berzerk with lust) and their Superego, which disapproves. Which is why the distinction between fantasy and reality suddenly becomes a conflicted one (instead of "I wish this were true but it isn't and I know that" it's "I wish this were true but not real").
Generally, I don't really -enjoy- disturbing stories (horrific rather than dark) in the escapist "mmm, yummy" sense. It seems to be a contradiction-- enjoyment and horror, unless it's grotesque horror which is so unbelievable as to be play. Perhaps I should read more horror fics to get a better grip on this phenomenon, and then I'd understand the (sexual) appeal of the horrific on a more intuitive level.
It especially all clicked into place with
tinderblast's comment about realism introducing a "clear moral element" to the suffering in a fic, and the idea in general that realism brings the fiction just that much closer to "reality", where people's ideas of right and wrong and rooted (well, other people's moreso than mine, heh). I'd written a non-con H/D once (that I hated writing), `As Good As He Got', which a number of people who like non-con didn't find hot, and I got the sense that this was because I went for psychological realism more than anything else. I think this is clear to me now-- to me, the purpose of writing anything that disturbs me in reality would be to poke at it, to represent it in a cathartic or illuminating manner. Using it in fiction without any overt reference to its true nature-- on purpose-- seems counter-intuitive to me. I mean, kink-fic isn't exactly meant to be "literature", but I can't really separate that way. To me, anything written is literature and the same impulses and psychological ground applies to its writing. Personally, my writing-style remains what it is whether I write a PWP or a character study or a plotty novella. It shifts due to mood but not really due to realism of subject, generally. I can't write anything using characters I consciously -know- are "fake", characters I -know- would never act this way and I wouldn't want them to in "reality", or whatever that is when it comes to fanfic (canon-reality?). The characters -are- the characters, and that's -it-, 'cause my own vision of them remains constant.
So this idea of "fantasized fic-space" and "realist fic-space" that separates realist fiction from "other" makes no sense on an intuitive level, the same way it'd make no sense to write a non-parody fic you -know- is out-of-character. And yet, I do understand how this works now, I think, and why -I- can't do it (which illuminates me even more). I think it has to do with people being able to separate themselves from the "reality" of whatever character they're "using" sexually. I can't. To me, for instance, Harry is always Harry and he is very very real. If I hurt him in my head through reading it or writing it, I will bleed. There is little to no emotional separation for me between "fantasy" and "reality"-- so the moral or theoretical separation is almost irrelevant. But, for people with a weaker emotional investment in stories and a less intense investment in the make-believe world-- yes, I can see how it can be a sort of surface kink-level escapism (where they take along their libido and leave their frontal lobe behind), whereas for me it's a sort of mind-heart-and-body full escapist experience all the time, heh.
So
cathexys' idea of realism being "counterindicative of kink and hotness" really seems vital to my understanding. But I think this depends on what your kink is, too, whether it's something you're conflicted about or not. My kinks (in sexual-romance fic, anyway) tend not to be dark, and a lot of them I wouldn't even call sexual and more romantic. For instance, one of the more disturbing things about `And Just Plain Wrong' and `Prisonnier de Guerre' is that they're both hurting Harry and generally that makes me ill and upset, but the H/D bits in them-- where it's Draco hurting Harry and not Snape or Lucius or whoever-- that's where I'm no longer just distressed. I'm enjoying it, and not even seeing it as torture, quite-- in my mind, there's a very strong association with conflict/violence between Harry&Draco being enjoyable, positive even. Because while Draco is lashing out at Harry (or vice versa), a part of me thinks all's right with the world.When it comes to H/D, my kink is Harry or Draco's anger/passion/hate/need-- so if either of them displays it, it just hits my button and there I am, rooting for them. So if you're going to upset me with an H/D fic, it's going to have to be passionless, devoid of any emotional force-- coldly manipulative, basically. I don't think that's very believable, but that'd what it'd have to be, and I don't mean it'd be sexual, even. I get really disturbed and upset by the H/D dynamic in
ishuca's `Plague of Legends', and it really seems to undercut my happy little fantasy world H/D-happy-place because they're "together" but it's a sham-- Draco is emotionally using Harry and Harry is allowing himself to be used. It's not about their desire or anger or need, it's about fear and powerlessness on both sides (at least up until chapter 11, where I'd stopped). Basically, I see their lust, their whole dynamic being made a -lie-, some sort of artificial (fantasy-like!) construct, and that ruins it for me. Then again, I'm all 100% behind my fantasies, even if they're "wrong". Because hotness = goodness. Obviously, I'm just naive and sadly underdeveloped emotionally, but it all works out in the end because all I really want is for the hot boys (or "other" as the case may be) to snog and be happy. Awwwww.
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no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 12:06 am (UTC)In both these fics, Harry's being convincingly tortured, and it's not really -seen as hot- by the actual -pov character- in question. It's seen as hot by the -writer- and some of the -readers-.
So yeah, you can have unrealistic things that break the flow in a more fantasy-based fic, but that's a more common problem-- a lot of people are willing to just suspend their disbelief because there's the pay-off. But in a fic which -tries- to bring the reader back to reality by showing the ugly side of things, it becomes more problematic to still encounter this forceful suepension of "belief", maybe? Because how does it work, realizing something is awful and yet -still enjoying it-? That's what I was wondering.
If you think "ouch" and are startled out of the story, that's one thing. I think it's rather common. One expects it's also rather common to -not- think "ouch" and just blithely smile in bliss at the hotness. But what if you think "ouch" and still are in bliss at the hotness? Then it's something else altogether, isn't it-- being a kinkfic in the first place, especially. And the boundaries between fantasy and reality become just that much more tricky to navigate, it seems to me. :>
no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 08:32 am (UTC)I suspect if I had that reaction I'd probably find it interesting whatever misgivings I had about whether it was a good thing or not. (I'm amazingly blase when it comes to kinks because I rarely assume they have to do with actually wanting to do the things described.) I guess I'd want to know, if the person could tell me, exactly what they found hot about it. Or what I found hot about it if it were me. I remember a long time ago having a similar reaction to a fic but I can't remember what it was. It wasn't violence but I distinctly remember that same kind of thing, being turned on and offended or repulsed at the same time. Eventually I think I decided it was almost like indulging a fear in a safe way. This was something I almost lived in fear of in an unconscious way so maybe making it pleasurable felt good or something? Like when people find the violence hot are they identifying with the abuser or the victim? Because it seems like either one could be tapping into a part of themselves they might naturally repress or fear and so get off on reading it in the story...?