~~ me and my meta kink issues :>

[reenka]

Reading tinderblast's, switchknife's & cathexys' thread about `Prisonnier de Guerre' finally addressed an issue I'd been curious about for quite some time, but particularly after my wibbly post about people's apparent enjoyment ("ooh, sexy") of amanuensis1's `And Just Plain Wrong'.

I find myself lost when people claim to like a (sexual) scenario on fiction that they -despise- in reality. Mostly because I tend to approach escapist fiction from the "god, I wish this were true" angle-- I -want- there to be wizards, mind-bonds, insane monarchs with huge destinies, star-crossed lovers, talking horses, aliens and so on. If I love a story, usually it's because I feel it is true, or can be true, or should be true. With stories using "dangerous" sexual kinks, clearly this becomes fuzzy for some people, because this interacts much more directly with something that -can- easily be real (more directly than wizards), which is to say, sex. So maybe unlike other sorts of fantasies (which one can go through life wanting safely, knowing they're untouchable), sexual kinks in fiction invoke the readers' sense of personal ethics, thus triggering a split between their Id (which goes berzerk with lust) and their Superego, which disapproves. Which is why the distinction between fantasy and reality suddenly becomes a conflicted one (instead of "I wish this were true but it isn't and I know that" it's "I wish this were true but not real").

Generally, I don't really -enjoy- disturbing stories (horrific rather than dark) in the escapist "mmm, yummy" sense. It seems to be a contradiction-- enjoyment and horror, unless it's grotesque horror which is so unbelievable as to be play. Perhaps I should read more horror fics to get a better grip on this phenomenon, and then I'd understand the (sexual) appeal of the horrific on a more intuitive level.

It especially all clicked into place with tinderblast's comment about realism introducing a "clear moral element" to the suffering in a fic, and the idea in general that realism brings the fiction just that much closer to "reality", where people's ideas of right and wrong and rooted (well, other people's moreso than mine, heh). I'd written a non-con H/D once (that I hated writing), `As Good As He Got', which a number of people who like non-con didn't find hot, and I got the sense that this was because I went for psychological realism more than anything else.


I think this is clear to me now-- to me, the purpose of writing anything that disturbs me in reality would be to poke at it, to represent it in a cathartic or illuminating manner. Using it in fiction without any overt reference to its true nature-- on purpose-- seems counter-intuitive to me. I mean, kink-fic isn't exactly meant to be "literature", but I can't really separate that way. To me, anything written is literature and the same impulses and psychological ground applies to its writing. Personally, my writing-style remains what it is whether I write a PWP or a character study or a plotty novella. It shifts due to mood but not really due to realism of subject, generally. I can't write anything using characters I consciously -know- are "fake", characters I -know- would never act this way and I wouldn't want them to in "reality", or whatever that is when it comes to fanfic (canon-reality?). The characters -are- the characters, and that's -it-, 'cause my own vision of them remains constant.

So this idea of "fantasized fic-space" and "realist fic-space" that separates realist fiction from "other" makes no sense on an intuitive level, the same way it'd make no sense to write a non-parody fic you -know- is out-of-character. And yet, I do understand how this works now, I think, and why -I- can't do it (which illuminates me even more). I think it has to do with people being able to separate themselves from the "reality" of whatever character they're "using" sexually. I can't. To me, for instance, Harry is always Harry and he is very very real. If I hurt him in my head through reading it or writing it, I will bleed. There is little to no emotional separation for me between "fantasy" and "reality"-- so the moral or theoretical separation is almost irrelevant. But, for people with a weaker emotional investment in stories and a less intense investment in the make-believe world-- yes, I can see how it can be a sort of surface kink-level escapism (where they take along their libido and leave their frontal lobe behind), whereas for me it's a sort of mind-heart-and-body full escapist experience all the time, heh.

So cathexys' idea of realism being "counterindicative of kink and hotness" really seems vital to my understanding. But I think this depends on what your kink is, too, whether it's something you're conflicted about or not. My kinks (in sexual-romance fic, anyway) tend not to be dark, and a lot of them I wouldn't even call sexual and more romantic. For instance, one of the more disturbing things about `And Just Plain Wrong' and `Prisonnier de Guerre' is that they're both hurting Harry and generally that makes me ill and upset, but the H/D bits in them-- where it's Draco hurting Harry and not Snape or Lucius or whoever-- that's where I'm no longer just distressed. I'm enjoying it, and not even seeing it as torture, quite-- in my mind, there's a very strong association with conflict/violence between Harry&Draco being enjoyable, positive even. Because while Draco is lashing out at Harry (or vice versa), a part of me thinks all's right with the world.

When it comes to H/D, my kink is Harry or Draco's anger/passion/hate/need-- so if either of them displays it, it just hits my button and there I am, rooting for them. So if you're going to upset me with an H/D fic, it's going to have to be passionless, devoid of any emotional force-- coldly manipulative, basically. I don't think that's very believable, but that'd what it'd have to be, and I don't mean it'd be sexual, even. I get really disturbed and upset by the H/D dynamic in ishuca's `Plague of Legends', and it really seems to undercut my happy little fantasy world H/D-happy-place because they're "together" but it's a sham-- Draco is emotionally using Harry and Harry is allowing himself to be used. It's not about their desire or anger or need, it's about fear and powerlessness on both sides (at least up until chapter 11, where I'd stopped). Basically, I see their lust, their whole dynamic being made a -lie-, some sort of artificial (fantasy-like!) construct, and that ruins it for me.

Then again, I'm all 100% behind my fantasies, even if they're "wrong". Because hotness = goodness. Obviously, I'm just naive and sadly underdeveloped emotionally, but it all works out in the end because all I really want is for the hot boys (or "other" as the case may be) to snog and be happy. Awwwww.

Comments

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

great post...and you finally got me off my butt to write this all together as a kind of summary post on virgule...so all i have to say is there (http://www.livejournal.com/community/virgule/15511.html?style=mine) :-)

and yes, i totally agree that at the heart of the matter lies when realistic unsettling and sexual arousal meet...b/c i know i can read horrific stuff...ten years on the holocaust saw to that...it's the sexualization that gets problematic...

Eh, and isn't fanon slightly scaring you when you can write lines like that's where I'm no longer just distressed. I'm enjoying it, and not even seeing it as torture, quite-- in my mind, there's a very strong association between conflict/violence between Harry&Draco being enjoyable, positive even. Because while Draco is lashing out at Harry (or vice versa), a part of me thinks all's right with the world.???

I mean, when we step back from our little corner of the universe that sounds majorly fucked up, doesn't it???

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eeep. That was a great summary (that you linked to). Makes me feel like I was frying really small and not-very-well-articulated fish with this particular post. Though, I mean... there are all these -questions- and very few -answers-, which... bothers me. Isn't someone going to break this down for me sometime? *laughs* Maybe it's just that very simple thing where there's such a thing as "hardcore" and "softcore"-- if you're hardcore, you're going to like it being as realistic and "dirty" as possible, with all the details and the essence of reality. People think they don't want it in "real life", but as I said, that's superego. Basically? I'm saying that it's a contradiction, and a part of them -does- want it (while another part of them doesn't, obviously).

I mean, that's probably hard to swallow, but it's really the only conclusion I can possibly come up with. I'm not saying it's directly correlated to "I want to be in Harry's shoes" in the case of these stories-- but something about the emotional valance here appeals the way S&M appeals to people while they wouldn't want to be actually captured by the Spanish Inquisition, y'know? On the other hand, I do think a part of them -would- want to be captured. It's like... wanting some but not all. If only we could de-claw reality and make it all "okay" and palatable (pain while retaining control of how long and how much, for instance). So that one's kinks don't overwhelm one? Maybe that's what this is about. Control gained by fantasies of losing it?

Yeah, that really disturbed me. How I could look back and realize, hey wait-- I -liked- the H/D bits in these fics. What does that say about me and about the people who liked those fics whole? Is it just that I'm so obsessed with H/D and that's -my- kink and they're more into H/S or H/L and there was more of that in that fic so bingo, they were hooked? Is it that easy? Would I be much more open to ignoring the moral implications just that much more if it was giving me the sugar I needed on the side?

I mean... it sounds majorly fucked up to me to enjoy either of those fics ON ANY LEVEL. I mean, intuitively. And yet, I enjoyed the H/D bits. I think maybe it's just that whole thing where we think there are these thick boundaries we can't cross into horror, but secretly the darkness has been inside us all along, and some people are just more in touch with it. I'm not sure.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

thanks...i did it b/c of your post that really rised all the important issues...as for your own kinks...it's unsettling to realize that things get you off that really shouldn't...and even more unsettling that you hadn't even noticed how wrong it was b/c it *was* your kink :-)