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reenkaI think I've figured it out. Well, nothing much, really. I've figured out why I look at someone's writing in gestalt moreso than not. I was going to like, 'cause some outcry and make a list of fics I considered Really Really Bad (or maybe just one really... or just bad).... But well. I think most fics out there are just... bad. They are! My god! I'm not excluding myself. I'm just saying. Coming from the supposition that 90% of everything is crap, what's the point?
The question arises: why is it all crap?
I'm not talking characterization or pacing or plot-- I'm just saying that most people can't seem to write, that's all. It's either overwrought or awkward or completely unbelievable juvenilia or entirely mired in some sort of fluffy-or-depressive ouvre where the author bias overwhelms everything the characters can possibly do. As soon as I want to make my oh-so-shocking List of Doom, I can't, because it's not that I hate everything, it's that I can't honestly single out certain fics and imply that there's not another 100 fics just like it out there.
That said, I actually enjoy most things I read by judicious use of suspension of disbelief, desire to have my kinks worked and a certain amount of blind obsession with certain tropes.
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chresimos said that maybe reccing is a pointless endeavor because emotional-impact works will of necessity not be able to be guarranteed success and a brilliantly-done piece will do nothing for the reader without some sort of emotional connection involved. Personally, I don't rec in order to set up some sort of... er... elite club(?) I just rec to keep track of things. It's compulsive. My dislike for hyperbole in others' recs is simply a part of my dislike for hyperbole in general.
But anyway. I realized that the thing that makes writing -work- for me is the basic competence of the writer-- which is why I tend to like writers in general more than any particular work. Competence is a stable thing, generally. I might even call it talent. Any particular work is iffy, whether it's effective for any particular person at any particular moment-- but you can still separate the ff.net-style clunky wooden shoes of literature and the more soft eel-skin boots which feel soft and nice even if they're not "your thing".
I think the problem is that in fanfiction, there's an even wider range of writing ability than in what's studied and recommended in terms of "real literature". There's a lot less of a divide between Dickens and Maupassant and Tolstoy and Fitzgerald than between... say... Hpgryffin and Rhysenn or Olympia, even if you really really dislike IP and `The Tale of the Shining Prince' (both of which I consider beautiful but have severe problems with also). You still see how they're worlds better than "Artificial Passion", right. Or, to be blunt and antagonistic, than oh... "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" (heh) or Resolution. Bleh. Though Resolution is in its beginning stages whereas IP is done, so I can't really judge entirely... even so... as fiction, the writing itself is much tighter (even though not to everyone's taste) and more vivid in IP. Both of their characterizations are questionable of course, which brings me to my other point. (That said, I don't "hate" Resolution simply 'cause nothing about it emotionally pings me one way or the other. I like some of the smut though, and it's readable, certainly, and enjoyable on a surface level.)
The other thing is that you can more easily take "original" fiction on its own merits (style and writing talent is thus considered more important, I guess), whereas fanfiction has to also work as fanfiction, which is a tricky, tricky bitch of a standard 'cause unlike basic writing quality, it's so dependent on subjective reader judgement of canon.
A lot of the fanfics that annoyed me or got a strong negative reaction ("Perfect Imperfection", "Ruses", "All Torn Down", "Checkmate", the Weather trilogy) aren't so much badly written (indeed, Shalott's writing is brilliant) as er... questionably characterized without back-up, based on my admittedly biased judgement. I realize a lot of people dislike some fics I like based on characterization reasons (it ranges from `Lustre' to the Draco Trilogy). I get to feel a bit smug because I realize the characterization issues being referenced are real, it's just that in my estimation, the other factors outweigh any harm incurred. Those factors are almost always: 1) the writing itself is stellar; 2) I -like- and was convinced of this Draco and/or Harry, Ginny, Ron, etc. for the duration of the fic, whether they're "canonically likely" versions or not. So basically, those fics-- `Checkmate', say-- make no headway in the conviction department. Of course, this `conviction' is just painfully subjective by definition.
So it seems that while bad writing is everywhere, it's much more painful as a fanfic reader to read acceptably-written awful rapes of the characters. And I'm rather liberal, especially since I started with fanon before canon. In the end, I -will- take the writing itself over characterization because I've found good writing (in all its multiple facets) lends itself to psychologically interesting characters that I can respond to as Harry or whomever if I felt like it.
This is a tricky subject; while seemingly, "canon" should be more of an objectively-present entity than "talent", people's desires and interpretations of canon are -so- wide-ranging that it's hard to use "canonicity" as a predictor of whether people will like it. And in fact, I didn't dislike those fics because they were uncanonical, per se. I disliked them because an inexplicably fluffy or dark characterization of a character I'd like to see as complex (I get annoyed at both) sort of rubs me the wrong way, personally. But it's not enough to say that I dislike those fics because their characterizations are too blatantly skewed-- no, I also have a personal bias against abusive!Harry or abusive!Draco or crying!Draco or sweet-fluffy-gentle!H/D. I like funny, cute fluff which is ridiculous and bouncy and doesn't take itself seriously and hopefully contains liberal doses of smut (mmmm, Dahlia, Silvia, Eddy, etc). Serious fluff ("Checkmate" and a horde of others which make me retch awfully) is just... an offense of some sort. A lie, basically.
So yeah, I tend to hate the fics that I feel -lie- to me on some level. It's insiduous like that. On the other hand, I think this is merely a type of badfic. Lots more fic is just written badly, I find boring in premise, uninspiring, dull, full of shoddy workmanship and un-thought-through characterizations. "Bleh", basically.
Usually, this "bleh" response can be overcome by sparkly writing. For instance, some of my at-one-point-favorite fics are really kind of hard to believe and fluffy in parts. But they have personality. The first few chapters of Love Under Will, for instance, have personality even though I don't think they have high canonical plausibility~:) Even though the canonicity or characterization of `The Untold Want' is questionable, it has this... aesthetic that's peculiar to itself which I'm tempted to call charm, which is more the -writer's- overall aesthetic than anything else. `Resolution' doesn't. Most things don't.
Basically.... What works for people in practice depends on who they are and thus are receptive to (intellectually, aesthetically, emotionally) and what they expect from fanfic and from fiction in general, and also what they can comprehend. I suspect Olympia's fics are beyond most people on a number of levels, as are the subtleties in Silvia's fics, maybe. That said, I don't mean that makes either author somehow "superior" because they have less blatant mass appeal-- I just mean that it's a consideration in terms of projecting reader response and constructing some sort of HP fanfic hierarchy.
Plenty of people, especially those of a more intellectual bent, want canonicity above all else-- not just the general believability of the character's behavior but some sort of strict adherence to (their) view of canon. This usually isn't so prevalent with the H/D-reading segment since really, first you have to get over the imaginative hurdle of envisioning H/D as relating to canon in the first place. The whole pairing is a subversion of canon in some ways while an expansion of it in others. In this sense, I would say almost no H/D fic measures up. I think... maybe `Red' by Miss Breed, `Sins of the Father' by Ali (mostly for pre-OoTP Harry) and eh... Origins for pre-OoTP Harry. Possibly I'd say Silvia's fics, Dee's `The More Things Change' & `Underwater Light' for Draco, but that's a very specific view on Draco. On the other hand, aren't they all?
Eh, to hell with it. Usually, the glaring hatreds for particular fics that people keep hidden play on their own ideas of the characters being betrayed somehow, and then lo! Look, the fandom's lapping it up. It's annoying. It's like somehow, they're saying that this other conception of the character isn't as real when they celebrate this stupid conception of him, I suppose.
To me personally, it doesn't matter how popular a fic I like or dislike is, simply because I think -most- fics get something wrong and I realize the large role my bias plays in my perception of this wrongness. Ideally, I want a fic to -prove- to me whatever view of the characters it has, simply by use of slow-and-steady characterization and plotting and such. Usually, good writing is necessary to make the medicine go down easier. For instance, I rather disagree with Olympia's takes on Harry & Draco in `The Tale of the Shining Prince' and sequels, but it doesn't matter-- they're so self-contained, so smooth that it says what it wants to say and draws you into that world. It presents a bubble, a mini-universe-- it exemplifies the idea of fanfic-as-AU that I'd mentioned in another post. It wouldn't have been able to do so if it wasn't written as gorgeously as it is, I think.
In terms of -my- response... I greatly admire it but have no deep emotional investment in it, post-reading. UL, which is more of a canon-based fic, I have an investment in, but I don't think it's -because- it's extrapolative but rather because I simply like that Draco more, that's all. (I wouldn't be able to -begin- to compare Maya's and Olympia's writing talent in general... I think this where it sort of levels out and becomes comparable and yet deeply incomparable at the same time).
Thus there are two things that remain semi-constant: the overall success of whatever aesthetic or idea the author had been trying to portray-- regardless of its degree of relationship to canon-- based on the writing itself; that is to say, the writer. And secondly, a particular reader, who has the same biases and desires from fic to fic. Er. All of which is entirely unhelpful, I know :/
Dude. You can tell I haven't eaten yet. I could've said all this in like, one paragraph, I'm sure. But whenever I'm out of it, I get progressively more verbose. Fear me.
EDIT - also. MY GOD, WHY CAN'T I STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS; SOMEONE GAG ME!!1 >:O
The question arises: why is it all crap?
I'm not talking characterization or pacing or plot-- I'm just saying that most people can't seem to write, that's all. It's either overwrought or awkward or completely unbelievable juvenilia or entirely mired in some sort of fluffy-or-depressive ouvre where the author bias overwhelms everything the characters can possibly do. As soon as I want to make my oh-so-shocking List of Doom, I can't, because it's not that I hate everything, it's that I can't honestly single out certain fics and imply that there's not another 100 fics just like it out there.
That said, I actually enjoy most things I read by judicious use of suspension of disbelief, desire to have my kinks worked and a certain amount of blind obsession with certain tropes.
chresimos said that maybe reccing is a pointless endeavor because emotional-impact works will of necessity not be able to be guarranteed success and a brilliantly-done piece will do nothing for the reader without some sort of emotional connection involved. Personally, I don't rec in order to set up some sort of... er... elite club(?) I just rec to keep track of things. It's compulsive. My dislike for hyperbole in others' recs is simply a part of my dislike for hyperbole in general. But anyway. I realized that the thing that makes writing -work- for me is the basic competence of the writer-- which is why I tend to like writers in general more than any particular work. Competence is a stable thing, generally. I might even call it talent. Any particular work is iffy, whether it's effective for any particular person at any particular moment-- but you can still separate the ff.net-style clunky wooden shoes of literature and the more soft eel-skin boots which feel soft and nice even if they're not "your thing".
I think the problem is that in fanfiction, there's an even wider range of writing ability than in what's studied and recommended in terms of "real literature". There's a lot less of a divide between Dickens and Maupassant and Tolstoy and Fitzgerald than between... say... Hpgryffin and Rhysenn or Olympia, even if you really really dislike IP and `The Tale of the Shining Prince' (both of which I consider beautiful but have severe problems with also). You still see how they're worlds better than "Artificial Passion", right. Or, to be blunt and antagonistic, than oh... "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" (heh) or Resolution. Bleh. Though Resolution is in its beginning stages whereas IP is done, so I can't really judge entirely... even so... as fiction, the writing itself is much tighter (even though not to everyone's taste) and more vivid in IP. Both of their characterizations are questionable of course, which brings me to my other point. (That said, I don't "hate" Resolution simply 'cause nothing about it emotionally pings me one way or the other. I like some of the smut though, and it's readable, certainly, and enjoyable on a surface level.)
The other thing is that you can more easily take "original" fiction on its own merits (style and writing talent is thus considered more important, I guess), whereas fanfiction has to also work as fanfiction, which is a tricky, tricky bitch of a standard 'cause unlike basic writing quality, it's so dependent on subjective reader judgement of canon.
A lot of the fanfics that annoyed me or got a strong negative reaction ("Perfect Imperfection", "Ruses", "All Torn Down", "Checkmate", the Weather trilogy) aren't so much badly written (indeed, Shalott's writing is brilliant) as er... questionably characterized without back-up, based on my admittedly biased judgement. I realize a lot of people dislike some fics I like based on characterization reasons (it ranges from `Lustre' to the Draco Trilogy). I get to feel a bit smug because I realize the characterization issues being referenced are real, it's just that in my estimation, the other factors outweigh any harm incurred. Those factors are almost always: 1) the writing itself is stellar; 2) I -like- and was convinced of this Draco and/or Harry, Ginny, Ron, etc. for the duration of the fic, whether they're "canonically likely" versions or not. So basically, those fics-- `Checkmate', say-- make no headway in the conviction department. Of course, this `conviction' is just painfully subjective by definition.
So it seems that while bad writing is everywhere, it's much more painful as a fanfic reader to read acceptably-written awful rapes of the characters. And I'm rather liberal, especially since I started with fanon before canon. In the end, I -will- take the writing itself over characterization because I've found good writing (in all its multiple facets) lends itself to psychologically interesting characters that I can respond to as Harry or whomever if I felt like it.
This is a tricky subject; while seemingly, "canon" should be more of an objectively-present entity than "talent", people's desires and interpretations of canon are -so- wide-ranging that it's hard to use "canonicity" as a predictor of whether people will like it. And in fact, I didn't dislike those fics because they were uncanonical, per se. I disliked them because an inexplicably fluffy or dark characterization of a character I'd like to see as complex (I get annoyed at both) sort of rubs me the wrong way, personally. But it's not enough to say that I dislike those fics because their characterizations are too blatantly skewed-- no, I also have a personal bias against abusive!Harry or abusive!Draco or crying!Draco or sweet-fluffy-gentle!H/D. I like funny, cute fluff which is ridiculous and bouncy and doesn't take itself seriously and hopefully contains liberal doses of smut (mmmm, Dahlia, Silvia, Eddy, etc). Serious fluff ("Checkmate" and a horde of others which make me retch awfully) is just... an offense of some sort. A lie, basically.
So yeah, I tend to hate the fics that I feel -lie- to me on some level. It's insiduous like that. On the other hand, I think this is merely a type of badfic. Lots more fic is just written badly, I find boring in premise, uninspiring, dull, full of shoddy workmanship and un-thought-through characterizations. "Bleh", basically.
Usually, this "bleh" response can be overcome by sparkly writing. For instance, some of my at-one-point-favorite fics are really kind of hard to believe and fluffy in parts. But they have personality. The first few chapters of Love Under Will, for instance, have personality even though I don't think they have high canonical plausibility~:) Even though the canonicity or characterization of `The Untold Want' is questionable, it has this... aesthetic that's peculiar to itself which I'm tempted to call charm, which is more the -writer's- overall aesthetic than anything else. `Resolution' doesn't. Most things don't.
Basically.... What works for people in practice depends on who they are and thus are receptive to (intellectually, aesthetically, emotionally) and what they expect from fanfic and from fiction in general, and also what they can comprehend. I suspect Olympia's fics are beyond most people on a number of levels, as are the subtleties in Silvia's fics, maybe. That said, I don't mean that makes either author somehow "superior" because they have less blatant mass appeal-- I just mean that it's a consideration in terms of projecting reader response and constructing some sort of HP fanfic hierarchy.
Plenty of people, especially those of a more intellectual bent, want canonicity above all else-- not just the general believability of the character's behavior but some sort of strict adherence to (their) view of canon. This usually isn't so prevalent with the H/D-reading segment since really, first you have to get over the imaginative hurdle of envisioning H/D as relating to canon in the first place. The whole pairing is a subversion of canon in some ways while an expansion of it in others. In this sense, I would say almost no H/D fic measures up. I think... maybe `Red' by Miss Breed, `Sins of the Father' by Ali (mostly for pre-OoTP Harry) and eh... Origins for pre-OoTP Harry. Possibly I'd say Silvia's fics, Dee's `The More Things Change' & `Underwater Light' for Draco, but that's a very specific view on Draco. On the other hand, aren't they all?
Eh, to hell with it. Usually, the glaring hatreds for particular fics that people keep hidden play on their own ideas of the characters being betrayed somehow, and then lo! Look, the fandom's lapping it up. It's annoying. It's like somehow, they're saying that this other conception of the character isn't as real when they celebrate this stupid conception of him, I suppose.
To me personally, it doesn't matter how popular a fic I like or dislike is, simply because I think -most- fics get something wrong and I realize the large role my bias plays in my perception of this wrongness. Ideally, I want a fic to -prove- to me whatever view of the characters it has, simply by use of slow-and-steady characterization and plotting and such. Usually, good writing is necessary to make the medicine go down easier. For instance, I rather disagree with Olympia's takes on Harry & Draco in `The Tale of the Shining Prince' and sequels, but it doesn't matter-- they're so self-contained, so smooth that it says what it wants to say and draws you into that world. It presents a bubble, a mini-universe-- it exemplifies the idea of fanfic-as-AU that I'd mentioned in another post. It wouldn't have been able to do so if it wasn't written as gorgeously as it is, I think.
In terms of -my- response... I greatly admire it but have no deep emotional investment in it, post-reading. UL, which is more of a canon-based fic, I have an investment in, but I don't think it's -because- it's extrapolative but rather because I simply like that Draco more, that's all. (I wouldn't be able to -begin- to compare Maya's and Olympia's writing talent in general... I think this where it sort of levels out and becomes comparable and yet deeply incomparable at the same time).
Thus there are two things that remain semi-constant: the overall success of whatever aesthetic or idea the author had been trying to portray-- regardless of its degree of relationship to canon-- based on the writing itself; that is to say, the writer. And secondly, a particular reader, who has the same biases and desires from fic to fic. Er. All of which is entirely unhelpful, I know :/
Dude. You can tell I haven't eaten yet. I could've said all this in like, one paragraph, I'm sure. But whenever I'm out of it, I get progressively more verbose. Fear me.
EDIT - also. MY GOD, WHY CAN'T I STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS; SOMEONE GAG ME!!1 >:O
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no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 03:20 pm (UTC)I also think it's poorly-written and poorly-constructed. Telling an entire chapter from Hermione's p.o.v.? There was nothing in the structure of the fic to prepare us for that, as far as I recall. That was pretty much when I gave up ... the fic is so sloppy that way. And I personally find Maya's Draco uncharming and unfunny. I much prefer the petty, jealous, pointed-face boy who bitches about "Potty and the Weasel" in canon, than SexGodSlytherin!Draco whom Harry (and the rest of the school) follows about with helpless adoration.
*cries*
IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. ON ANY LEVEL.
The fact that this would make it onto so many Desert Island Fic lists is utterly boggling to me. And you know, it's not like the fics I would take would be all artsy and intellectual, either. Yeah, there'd be Olympia, but there'd also be a lot of Snape smut and Marysia and Dahlia and Jitterbug. Oh, and Amanuensis! :D
On the other hand, I really liked Maya's H/D imperius fic. I thought it was fascinating, painful, really tight and beautifully-written, and the fact that Draco still seemed to be Mr. Popularity With Everyone was less annoying because mostly we just saw him through Harry's eyes. That story gave me nightmares (that's a compliment, btw!), and I definitely think it's one of the top H/D fics in the fandom. I wish Maya would write more stuff like that, and put UL in a watery grave.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 04:55 pm (UTC)In my head, I make brilliant points for this argument and you wind up on your knees begging Maya's forgiveness for being so short-sighted as to think her Draco was just about the pretty hair and the coffee fetish and the witty quips. In my head, of course, Maya also rewards my crusader efforts with snogs. Of the Saul/Jett variety.
However, Livejournal has just taken ten minutes loading this page, and I am not about to waste time typing up my argument only to have it fall upon a deaf server. Livejournal, I fear, is a Very Evil Being.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 05:16 pm (UTC)But the problem is, Aja, UL is not shimmery and gossamer. There isn't anything stylistically or otherwise that would redeem it for me, as a person who doesn't like Maya's Draco characterization. (I mean, for example, I think everyone is in agreement that the Tri-Wizard Tournament Mach 2 is a pretty weak plot device.)
Maya's Draco is a Mary Sue. He's perfect, handsome, devastatingly witty, blah blah blah. I just don't find characters like that interesting. I see what you're saying about him being merely a riff on fanon!Draco, but given my feelings on that specific type of fanon!Draco, I don't know why Maya writing the Ur-fandom!Draco should be something that I enjoy. It's like saying, "I know you don't like liver, but you should like this because it's the Liveriest Liver of All!"
I just love canon!Draco, and flawed characters in general, way too much to like what fandom has done to him. Since when does calling Harry and Ron "Potty and the Weasel" mean that Draco is another Noel Coward, overflowing with razor-sharp repartee? And given that canon!Draco is whiny and petulant and immature and has the self-control of an incontinent puppy, I don't know where DashinglyNobleAndSelf-Possessed!Draco even comes from. (Well, I have an idea, but I'm going to refrain from saying it.)
So if a fic doesn't have all the things that Olympia's fic has to convince me of a characterization I might not otherwise buy whole-heartedly (and actually, it's not her Draco I found OOC, but Harry), I don't see why I should like it. Maya is not Olympia, and her fic certainly is not Olympia's equal in terms of style or conceptual ambition. Her fic is not an AU, like Olympia's. It's just kind a glossy fantasy that mostly seems to be about how in love she is with her own version of Draco's character. Which is fine, but again: it doesn't do it for me. I'm a lot older and I prefer realism over romance, every single time. I like stories -- and characters -- that are convincingly ambivalent and messy and sometimes downright ugly and unlovable. That's my preference.
If it's any consolation, I don't like SuddenlyNotGreasy!Snape or RockHardAbs!Harry, either.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 05:47 pm (UTC)I beta'd UL from chapter 5 on to the most recent one, which i bypassed because i chose to go on beta hiatus for a while. I hated betaing her chapters because I could never find anything wrong with them--and yes, I did have issues with the Hermione pov, but as she utilized that POV switch from there on out I was able to overlook it. Particularly in later chapters I found Maya's writing to be less and less something I could quibble with--even when she's writing fluff, it's written with such confidence; her prose is so totally in her voice that I don't have a problem taking it on her terms.
Something I think is important to keep in mind: Maya's Draco in Underwater Light is an earlier Draco. He is the Draco of the hilarious but absolutely fluffy DMABR. He is not the Draco of her later dark-fics. The very first review I left of UL said basically "I really like this fic, I love the characterization of Harry, but yikes, repeating the TWT?!" I wasn't impressed by her characterization of Draco; I accepted him because he was well-written and I liked her writing, just as I accepted the TWT.
With Maya's earlier writing I have always felt that we overlook the flaws because we love it (just as Reena said somewhere up there). Yes, the TWT repetition is totally implausible. Yes, she brought in Hermione's POV out of nowhere; yes, her Draco is too perfect and noble and witty to be real in anything but a Must-See TV World. Except. Except that he is real to us because he is the Draco we, the fandom at large, have fantasized about--the Draco who *could* be. He bears very, very little resemblance to canon!Draco--you could say that he is a great great grandchild of it, a direct descendent of the Draco Gene by which he has been fantasized and sexualized and transformed from a somewhat cardboard canon characterization of him.
It is absolutely acceptable for you to not like him, and to not be able to overlook those flaws. But the fantasy that Maya constructs for us in UL is no less plausible, really, than the one Dahlia where Harry and Draco find themselves snogging on the Quidditch pitch, or the one I give you where Draco has a thing for Benjamin Britten and Catholic boy choirs, or the one where Draco is a compulsive list-maker. Ultimately, it's just a matter of which fantasy you prefer, and why, and how carefully you choose to integrate that fantasy into the world of canon.
I am *not* saying that it's admirable that all these people have UL on their desert-island lists as opposed to Maya's more canonical fics; nor am I saying that you should like it too--I'd be very surprised and possibly disappointed if you re-read it and suddenly changed your mind, haha. What I *am* saying is that ultimately it's Maya you're all taking with you to your desert island--it's Maya's warmth and love for her characters and bubbly spirit and passion that they're responding to in UL, not the specific fact that her Draco is a blond sex god who had Harry at hello. They're responding to the same things, I would imagine, that you responded to in Your Every Wish--only they're choosing to view them through the rose-colored lens that Maya has provided, instead of the dark-tint.
:)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 09:08 pm (UTC)I just disagree with you, that's all. You like Maya, you like her fics, you enjoy her Draco ... therefore my criticisms don't resonate for you. Which is absolutely fine. But that doesn't make my own problems with her writing any less real.
And this argument is completely circular, Aja. You can't say that "Well, her Draco is just as believable as anyone else's, 'cos look at Olympia and Dahlia, etc. etc. etc." Because I think UL is poorly written and poorly constructed. I can go back to the actual text and come up with examples but I'd really rather not.
So I'm not going to compare her to someone like Olympia or Dahlia, because frankly I think it's an insult to those two authors. Maya is self-indulgent in her writing in a way neither of these writers are, because Maya doesn't seem to have any distance from her characters. And again, I am not going to compare her understanding of technique or craft to the work of folks who are much more experienced, knowledgable, and skilled than she is. It's not fair to anyone. If you think as a beta her fic is unimprovable, that's your opinion, Aja. I'm happy that some folks feel that way, but I don't.
Then you turn around and say, "Okay, she has had technical problems but the reason we love this fic is 'cos we love her Draco." Do you see how your logic goes around in a circle here?
'Cos I don't love Maya's Draco and I don't think she writes him "exceedingly well," so why should I overlook her story's technical flaws? She makes me hate Draco, and hate fandom for wanting him to be this silly idealized version of what they think their Twoo Luv will someday be. I am not interested in Maya's Fantasy Boyfriend (or anyone else's). He is not the Draco I "fantasize" about. I don't like cardboard characters.
To me, this version of Draco reads as the product of limited romantic experience and imagination, and as someone who's been wined, dined, wooed, and been in one relationship after another over the past 15 years, I think I can say without reservation that this Draco is someone I want nothing to do with, in fandom or real life. I need fics that reflect my understanding of reality in some way. That doesn't mean that they need to be gritty -- I like happy stories and happy endings more than sad ones -- but this fandom version of Draco is too perfect to be true, and I don't get any pleasure in that. I get pleasure in seeing normal, flawed people being capable of amazing things. Not this perfect blonde ice-god tossing off witticisms and leaving a trail of swooning fangirls in his wake.
I don't find UL believable or funny or enjoyable. That's why I no longer read it. And I think we should probably not discuss this further, because I don't want to upset you (or Maya), and I am kind of getting freaked out here by you wanting to convert me to the One True Way of Mayadom. I've given reasons for my opinion; I think they're valid ones; and while you don't have to agree, I don't you can change another person's mind when it comes to things like lowering their own personal standards for writing or what kind of characters they simply like or don't like.
Okay? *hugs*
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Date: 2003-10-03 04:33 am (UTC)I was not trying to say that since you don't like UL it's Maya herself you have issues with; all I meant was that Maya is a writer puts just as much of herself into UL as she does a fic like Your Every Wish, and that you don't have to prefer one over the other. I did think I made it clear I wasn't trying to convert you, but I'll just reiterate that my poorly constructed argument was an attempt to explain to you why we like it, not an attempt to say that you should do so too. I mean, granted, it seems as if you didn't need to have the phenomenon explained to you; BUT THEN I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD ANYTHING ELSE TO SAY. *sulks*
EMPTY CHAIRS, MAN. EMPTY CHAIRS.
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Date: 2003-10-02 06:23 pm (UTC)Actually, Sex-God!Draco and Mr-Popularity!Draco are my pet-peeve characterizations along with Poor-Widdle-Abused!Draco and so on, and I generally don't like most people's fanon Draco-- unless it seems as if the conception of him has depth and spirit, which is rare, 'cause as you said, it's ripe for Mary Suism. Which is why I have this h8-on for almost all versions except Maya's and Cassie Claire's. They seem... full of the genuine love of their author.
And I agree with Aja that the reason -I- enjoy it is Maya's voice behind it all, really. As far as UL!Draco being canonical... I can choose to see him that way as long as Maya's behind it. It's not so much that it makes sense intellectually as I enjoy the fantasy and I enjoy the over-the-top cuteness and genuine emotion behind it. There's also the fact that her Draco's -not- perfect, really, he just appears that way. True, Harry's completely wonked and zonked... but. You know. Er. I never said it was a canonically-correct Harry. I mean, I enjoy their snark and whole dynamic on its own merits, and because it's described so warmly. I don't really analyze it other than on its own terms.
And the reason I didn't take Maya's non-UL fics (which I actually admire more and am probably more enamoured of, like `Hatred' for instance) is because I don't tend to want to revisit the painful things. `Every Second' is really a huge exception to that rule and probably only works because it's so short and concentrated and almost ecstatic in its passion.
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Date: 2003-10-02 11:57 pm (UTC)But, you know, I love Draco, too. Plenty of people do. Just not the version these authors write. I get really uncomfortable with this sort of argument, because, you know, Draco no more belongs to CC or Maya than it does to anyone else except JKR, so I don't quite see how they're any more entitled to Mary-Sue him right out of canon.
Love and sincerity are not at issue here. You can believe in a certain characterization with your whole heart, you know, but that doesn't mean that certain characterizations aren't less accurate than others. And when it comes to canon!Draco: Maya and CC's versions have nothing to do with the brat in the books. And that brat is the Draco I love.
I mean, you could use the exact same argument here to defend some of my most painful Lucius/Draco fics, which most folks find so disturbing that I took them off the net months ago. There's a lot of love and sincerity and depth and spirit there, too. And sympathy. I'm being 100% serious here. Those emotions are very real for me ... this is why Lucius/Draco is my favorite pairing, and the only one that kicks me in the gut, when done well, the way other pairings don't do.
But that doesn't mean that everyone has to love or agree with or even respect my interpretation of that character or his dynamic with his father. Just because an author is in love with her characters doesn't mean that the rest of us have to be.
*shrugs*
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Date: 2003-10-03 12:25 am (UTC)I was never saying anyone has to love or appreciate UL or its Draco-- I only mentioned it by way of saying its author meant it as a version of canon!Draco and that's genuinely what she sees. I actually wasn't sure whether to include him, and it was sort of a "hmmm" addition. I myself tend to respond to the writer's emotion as it's evident through the characters' portrayal... if Lucius/Draco didn't freak me out, I'd even offer to demonstrate it to you somehow. Heh. Mostly... I can't see how parent-child incest can ever be a happy thing. Even if the child doesn't see it as painful or whatever, the parent still has to be rather awful to do that to their child.
I never even would begin to imply Draco belongs to a fanfic writer. *laughs*
But one can certain personalize him extensively~:))
Which takes him further and further away from canon, of course. Actually, I just enjoy Maya's fic without really needing it to be canonically rigorous (though I think Maya means it to be) because it has an emotional center that works for me. That's what I meant. I -think-, anyway. It's after 3am, so I"m not sure ;)
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Date: 2003-10-03 12:40 am (UTC)Oh. Erk. Eek. Sorry about that.
No, I wasn't saying that I think incest is happy. To the contrary! All I'm saying is that those painful L/D stories of mine have an emotional center that is just as sincere as Maya's bubbly UL. That's all.
Which is to say that I just don't think that the author's investment in the fic is any guarantee of its quality.
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Date: 2003-10-03 12:49 am (UTC)Sometimes I do find that a writer I already am on the frequency of would be able to compensate for some things I find questionable in that particular fic by the sheer intensity of emotion I can feel in it.
Aja does that, especially with `Every Second', but with other fics too. I'm just particularly sensitive to that, though~:)
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Date: 2003-10-03 12:57 am (UTC)I mean, we're not all that different as readers than as writers. Everybody has a certain emotional territory in which they write, so when it comes to stories written by others, the ones that best fit into this landscape are naturally going to be easier to love.
And Maya and I definitely don't live in the same neighborhood, so ... ;)
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Date: 2003-10-03 07:20 am (UTC)So frankly, it surprises me that I can still enjoy UL Draco. He must appeal to me on some canonical basis. Strangley, I really don't think of him as smooth and perfect. When I think of him I tend to think of his getting overexcited about the things he's into, his needing attention, his innocent take on the world. I wouldn't ever want him as a boyfriend though--totally high maintenance! I definitely don't mean this as a hard-sell that you should see him this way, it just has always interested me how much I enjoy UL given that I normally turn away from winner!Draco as being the antithesis of the real thing. It usually makes me stop reading.
Also, though, this brings up something I've been thinking about Draco in general. We all consider the smooth, confident boy of fanon to be wrong given the scrappy, often blundering mess we see in canon. At the same time though, I've recently wanted to look more closely at the fanon conventions and how they relate to canon. After all, Draco is supposed to be an aristocrat. He's the leader of his house despite being an underclassman. JKR says he's the "smart" mean kid who knows how to say things that truly hurt. We're told he "holds court" at the Slytherin table. Yet for me it's hard to imagine any of these things being true of the boy we see in most canon scenes. He shows no breeding, his insults are rarely truly cutting, he seems far too immature to be 15. He would never command the respect he does given what we've seen. I think, therefore, that it's a great idea for a writer to consider the idea that there is another side to Draco Harry doesn't see (there'd have to be) and try to truly blend these two sides believeably. I do think it can be done, it's just very difficult. Unfortunately it's probably just easier for people to create the Draco that Draco wishes he was or something and write that.