~~ naming names, skinning cats, same old same old.

[reenka]

I think I've figured it out. Well, nothing much, really. I've figured out why I look at someone's writing in gestalt moreso than not. I was going to like, 'cause some outcry and make a list of fics I considered Really Really Bad (or maybe just one really... or just bad).... But well. I think most fics out there are just... bad. They are! My god! I'm not excluding myself. I'm just saying. Coming from the supposition that 90% of everything is crap, what's the point?

The question arises: why is it all crap?

I'm not talking characterization or pacing or plot-- I'm just saying that most people can't seem to write, that's all. It's either overwrought or awkward or completely unbelievable juvenilia or entirely mired in some sort of fluffy-or-depressive ouvre where the author bias overwhelms everything the characters can possibly do. As soon as I want to make my oh-so-shocking List of Doom, I can't, because it's not that I hate everything, it's that I can't honestly single out certain fics and imply that there's not another 100 fics just like it out there.

That said, I actually enjoy most things I read by judicious use of suspension of disbelief, desire to have my kinks worked and a certain amount of blind obsession with certain tropes.
    chresimos said that maybe reccing is a pointless endeavor because emotional-impact works will of necessity not be able to be guarranteed success and a brilliantly-done piece will do nothing for the reader without some sort of emotional connection involved. Personally, I don't rec in order to set up some sort of... er... elite club(?) I just rec to keep track of things. It's compulsive. My dislike for hyperbole in others' recs is simply a part of my dislike for hyperbole in general.


But anyway. I realized that the thing that makes writing -work- for me is the basic competence of the writer-- which is why I tend to like writers in general more than any particular work. Competence is a stable thing, generally. I might even call it talent. Any particular work is iffy, whether it's effective for any particular person at any particular moment-- but you can still separate the ff.net-style clunky wooden shoes of literature and the more soft eel-skin boots which feel soft and nice even if they're not "your thing".

I think the problem is that in fanfiction, there's an even wider range of writing ability than in what's studied and recommended in terms of "real literature". There's a lot less of a divide between Dickens and Maupassant and Tolstoy and Fitzgerald than between... say... Hpgryffin and Rhysenn or Olympia, even if you really really dislike IP and `The Tale of the Shining Prince' (both of which I consider beautiful but have severe problems with also). You still see how they're worlds better than "Artificial Passion", right. Or, to be blunt and antagonistic, than oh... "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" (heh) or Resolution. Bleh. Though Resolution is in its beginning stages whereas IP is done, so I can't really judge entirely... even so... as fiction, the writing itself is much tighter (even though not to everyone's taste) and more vivid in IP. Both of their characterizations are questionable of course, which brings me to my other point. (That said, I don't "hate" Resolution simply 'cause nothing about it emotionally pings me one way or the other. I like some of the smut though, and it's readable, certainly, and enjoyable on a surface level.)

The other thing is that you can more easily take "original" fiction on its own merits (style and writing talent is thus considered more important, I guess), whereas fanfiction has to also work as fanfiction, which is a tricky, tricky bitch of a standard 'cause unlike basic writing quality, it's so dependent on subjective reader judgement of canon.

A lot of the fanfics that annoyed me or got a strong negative reaction ("Perfect Imperfection", "Ruses", "All Torn Down", "Checkmate", the Weather trilogy) aren't so much badly written (indeed, Shalott's writing is brilliant) as er... questionably characterized without back-up, based on my admittedly biased judgement. I realize a lot of people dislike some fics I like based on characterization reasons (it ranges from `Lustre' to the Draco Trilogy). I get to feel a bit smug because I realize the characterization issues being referenced are real, it's just that in my estimation, the other factors outweigh any harm incurred. Those factors are almost always: 1) the writing itself is stellar; 2) I -like- and was convinced of this Draco and/or Harry, Ginny, Ron, etc. for the duration of the fic, whether they're "canonically likely" versions or not. So basically, those fics-- `Checkmate', say-- make no headway in the conviction department. Of course, this `conviction' is just painfully subjective by definition.

So it seems that while bad writing is everywhere, it's much more painful as a fanfic reader to read acceptably-written awful rapes of the characters. And I'm rather liberal, especially since I started with fanon before canon. In the end, I -will- take the writing itself over characterization because I've found good writing (in all its multiple facets) lends itself to psychologically interesting characters that I can respond to as Harry or whomever if I felt like it.

This is a tricky subject; while seemingly, "canon" should be more of an objectively-present entity than "talent", people's desires and interpretations of canon are -so- wide-ranging that it's hard to use "canonicity" as a predictor of whether people will like it. And in fact, I didn't dislike those fics because they were uncanonical, per se. I disliked them because an inexplicably fluffy or dark characterization of a character I'd like to see as complex (I get annoyed at both) sort of rubs me the wrong way, personally. But it's not enough to say that I dislike those fics because their characterizations are too blatantly skewed-- no, I also have a personal bias against abusive!Harry or abusive!Draco or crying!Draco or sweet-fluffy-gentle!H/D. I like funny, cute fluff which is ridiculous and bouncy and doesn't take itself seriously and hopefully contains liberal doses of smut (mmmm, Dahlia, Silvia, Eddy, etc). Serious fluff ("Checkmate" and a horde of others which make me retch awfully) is just... an offense of some sort. A lie, basically.

So yeah, I tend to hate the fics that I feel -lie- to me on some level. It's insiduous like that. On the other hand, I think this is merely a type of badfic. Lots more fic is just written badly, I find boring in premise, uninspiring, dull, full of shoddy workmanship and un-thought-through characterizations. "Bleh", basically.

Usually, this "bleh" response can be overcome by sparkly writing. For instance, some of my at-one-point-favorite fics are really kind of hard to believe and fluffy in parts. But they have personality. The first few chapters of Love Under Will, for instance, have personality even though I don't think they have high canonical plausibility~:) Even though the canonicity or characterization of `The Untold Want' is questionable, it has this... aesthetic that's peculiar to itself which I'm tempted to call charm, which is more the -writer's- overall aesthetic than anything else. `Resolution' doesn't. Most things don't.

Basically.... What works for people in practice depends on who they are and thus are receptive to (intellectually, aesthetically, emotionally) and what they expect from fanfic and from fiction in general, and also what they can comprehend. I suspect Olympia's fics are beyond most people on a number of levels, as are the subtleties in Silvia's fics, maybe. That said, I don't mean that makes either author somehow "superior" because they have less blatant mass appeal-- I just mean that it's a consideration in terms of projecting reader response and constructing some sort of HP fanfic hierarchy.

Plenty of people, especially those of a more intellectual bent, want canonicity above all else-- not just the general believability of the character's behavior but some sort of strict adherence to (their) view of canon. This usually isn't so prevalent with the H/D-reading segment since really, first you have to get over the imaginative hurdle of envisioning H/D as relating to canon in the first place. The whole pairing is a subversion of canon in some ways while an expansion of it in others. In this sense, I would say almost no H/D fic measures up. I think... maybe `Red' by Miss Breed, `Sins of the Father' by Ali (mostly for pre-OoTP Harry) and eh... Origins for pre-OoTP Harry. Possibly I'd say Silvia's fics, Dee's `The More Things Change' & `Underwater Light' for Draco, but that's a very specific view on Draco. On the other hand, aren't they all?

Eh, to hell with it. Usually, the glaring hatreds for particular fics that people keep hidden play on their own ideas of the characters being betrayed somehow, and then lo! Look, the fandom's lapping it up. It's annoying. It's like somehow, they're saying that this other conception of the character isn't as real when they celebrate this stupid conception of him, I suppose.

To me personally, it doesn't matter how popular a fic I like or dislike is, simply because I think -most- fics get something wrong and I realize the large role my bias plays in my perception of this wrongness. Ideally, I want a fic to -prove- to me whatever view of the characters it has, simply by use of slow-and-steady characterization and plotting and such. Usually, good writing is necessary to make the medicine go down easier. For instance, I rather disagree with Olympia's takes on Harry & Draco in `The Tale of the Shining Prince' and sequels, but it doesn't matter-- they're so self-contained, so smooth that it says what it wants to say and draws you into that world. It presents a bubble, a mini-universe-- it exemplifies the idea of fanfic-as-AU that I'd mentioned in another post. It wouldn't have been able to do so if it wasn't written as gorgeously as it is, I think.

In terms of -my- response... I greatly admire it but have no deep emotional investment in it, post-reading. UL, which is more of a canon-based fic, I have an investment in, but I don't think it's -because- it's extrapolative but rather because I simply like that Draco more, that's all. (I wouldn't be able to -begin- to compare Maya's and Olympia's writing talent in general... I think this where it sort of levels out and becomes comparable and yet deeply incomparable at the same time).

Thus there are two things that remain semi-constant: the overall success of whatever aesthetic or idea the author had been trying to portray-- regardless of its degree of relationship to canon-- based on the writing itself; that is to say, the writer. And secondly, a particular reader, who has the same biases and desires from fic to fic. Er. All of which is entirely unhelpful, I know :/

Dude. You can tell I haven't eaten yet. I could've said all this in like, one paragraph, I'm sure. But whenever I'm out of it, I get progressively more verbose. Fear me.
    EDIT - also. MY GOD, WHY CAN'T I STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS; SOMEONE GAG ME!!1 >:O

Comments

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

I can't really engage with most of this (not because it isn't worth doing, but because I'm in a hurry), but I think UL!Draco is about as OOC as Draco can be. I absolutely cannot understand how *anybody* could look at the books and then look at that character and see any similarity. I mean, yeah, they both have blond hair, but otherwise?

I also think it's poorly-written and poorly-constructed. Telling an entire chapter from Hermione's p.o.v.? There was nothing in the structure of the fic to prepare us for that, as far as I recall. That was pretty much when I gave up ... the fic is so sloppy that way. And I personally find Maya's Draco uncharming and unfunny. I much prefer the petty, jealous, pointed-face boy who bitches about "Potty and the Weasel" in canon, than SexGodSlytherin!Draco whom Harry (and the rest of the school) follows about with helpless adoration.

*cries*

IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. ON ANY LEVEL.

The fact that this would make it onto so many Desert Island Fic lists is utterly boggling to me. And you know, it's not like the fics I would take would be all artsy and intellectual, either. Yeah, there'd be Olympia, but there'd also be a lot of Snape smut and Marysia and Dahlia and Jitterbug. Oh, and Amanuensis! :D

On the other hand, I really liked Maya's H/D imperius fic. I thought it was fascinating, painful, really tight and beautifully-written, and the fact that Draco still seemed to be Mr. Popularity With Everyone was less annoying because mostly we just saw him through Harry's eyes. That story gave me nightmares (that's a compliment, btw!), and I definitely think it's one of the top H/D fics in the fandom. I wish Maya would write more stuff like that, and put UL in a watery grave.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

And IP? Oh my god. The writing is like "fine wine," to quote Rhysenn herself. If you like super-sweet German Riesling, that is. I think that fic has spawned so much badfic in the fandom, because even though it was one of the first big fics and is perhaps more technically accomplished than some of the other fics that have followed in its way, it is nonetheless all about the purple prose and Boys Not Acting Like Boys and everyone being Stilted! and! Anguished!

The characterization isn't even consistent from one chapter to the other, and the dialogue is is too long, too wordy, too high-falutin', too expository. Give me Draco/cucumber any day. I honestly think that hpgryffin (HOW MUCH DO LOVE HER FICS, BTW?) is a much better writer than Rhysenn. At least her style is simple and unpretentious and doesn't overreach itself, like Rhysenn's does.

(This after all is the definition of sentimentality. Sentimentality is when you use language (or any symbolic material) that is too elevated and too grandiose for what it is actually describing.)

I don't like this kind of pretension. I don't like fics that are striving for more than they're able to accomplish. I would much rather read something that is well-done according to its own ambitions -- like a well-constructed H/D epic like Jitterbug's -- than something that tries to be Artsy! and Emotional! and Redemptive! and fails. And, you know, this purple style of over-writing, which Rhysenn exemplifies and which tends to be so pervasive in a certain part of the H/D fandom, is just as pompous and pretentious as whatever people think "intellislash" is supposed to be. Honestly. It's just as annoying, but only in the other direction.

*returns to writing Lucius/Draco smut* Mmm. Anal beads.

Last thing: I rather disagree with Olympia's takes on Harry & Draco in `The Tale of the Shining Prince' and sequels, but it doesn't matter-- they're so self-contained, so smooth that it says what it wants to say and draws you into that world. It presents a bubble, a mini-universe-- it exemplifies the idea of fanfic-as-AU that I'd mentioned in another post. It wouldn't have been able to do so if it wasn't written as gorgeously as it is, I think.

I agree with you 100%. It's really more of an original fic, but at that it succeeds beautifully. Although I wouldn't agree with putting Maya on Olympia's level. I mean, Maya obviously has talent, but Olympia has such a more sophisticated understanding and control of craft. And her knowledge of art and literature is much broader, which is what gives so much depth to her work. I don't think that's a fair comparison, to either of them, frankly.

I like funny, cute fluff which is ridiculous and bouncy and doesn't take itself seriously and hopefully contains liberal doses of smut (mmmm, Dahlia, Silvia, Eddy, etc). Serious fluff ("Checkmate" and a horde of others which make me retch awfully) is just... an offense of some sort. A lie, basically.

So yeah, I tend to hate the fics that I feel -lie- to me on some level. It's insiduous like that.

I agree. *<333s the humor and fluff* I just want some level of emotional realism and complexity. That's more important to me than whether a fic is light-hearted or sad. Either one can be done poorly or well. I just want to feel like the author is being authentic, in some way, to human experience, and not telling a pretty lie (whether it be pretty because it's sap or pretty because it's overloaded with adjectives or pretty because everybody dies so angstfully in the end). That's when sentiment turns into sentimentality, and when the reader feels resentful and over-manipulated.

[mhari.livejournal.com]

"Empty Chairs at Empty Tables"

*Les Mis geek pricks up ears in morbid curiosity*

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Some of the above sounds similar to my reasoning when I wrote Reasons for Fanfic and Impact on Characterization (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp67.html). Though I was specifically approaching the subject from the viewpoint of a reader, I also think why I read fanfic in a particular fandom impacts any writing I may do in that same fandom. Sometimes I'm looking for more of what the source material offered, and sometimes I want what the source material only hinted at. In the latter case, I'm much more likely to be forgiving of characterization that doesn't quite fit my own personal view of the characters, so long as the story is well-written.

Actually, I think this also matches up nicely with the idea of OTPness influencing your reading of canon, which musesfool recently addressed, among others. If you see an OTP, you're that much more likely to believe a story featuring your pairing, even if the author doesn't do the groundwork to convince a non-OTPer. If you see a character a certain way, you're that much more likely to believe, like, rec, etc. a story featuring the character written that way. And I think it's key that the recs I've run across that start with "I don't see the character this way" or "I don't usually like this pairing" always talk about good writing as one reason the story is being recced. It's rare that I've found a rec where the reccer says the author changed her reading of the character or the pairing. Usually, if such mention is made, it's qualified with "for the duration of the story." So even the best writing doesn't seem enough to change someone else's view of canon, for all it is often enough to keep us reading even when the subject matter isn't our usual bag.

My experience in HP with regards to characterization has been unique to my time in fandom. While there are fandoms in which I want the characterizations as canonical as possible, and fandoms where I'm willing to see the characterization fudged in a certain direction to get the story I want, HP is the one fandom where my taste for a canonical Draco is about paralleled by my taste for a certain breed of fanonical Draco. Every other character I want as canonical as possible, but I'm not as resistant to wittysensualist!Draco as my usual pattern would indicate I should be. It's partly because I'm so averse to He'stheRealHero!Draco or misunderstoodabused!Draco that just about anything is better. It's also partly because Draco feels very static to me in the source material, and while it's true we often outgrow childhood rivalries and I can see JKR setting things up that way, I do feel a bit too much time and effort has been focused on Draco up to this point to have him merely shrugged aside as Harry "grows up."

Of course, I'm also very fond of darkseducer!Draco, and with the setup at the end of OotP, I think he actually has a bit of a canonical basis now. If Lucius goes to Azkaban, I don't think it's inconceivable that Draco will start seriously nursing vengeance over the summer, and he may well decide to pursue more adult means of getting it than he has thus far. We've already seen he doesn't appreciate falling off Harry's radar. How far will he go to get back on it?

And now that I've wandered so far off topic *G*, I'll go back to addressing what you said. I've actually found there are times when I dislike a characterization that is actually more canonical than another characterization I prefer. Often, that's because I can see how the author has arrived at that characterization, and it involves a reading of certain events that is just a bit askew of how I read them. For instance, I think IP is arguably more canonical in characterization than, say, "The Tale of the Shining Prince." Yet I prefer "The Tale of the Shining Prince" in part because it doesn't require I twist my own views of canon the way IP does. So even though IP Draco is closer to how I think he's portrayed in canon, TSP Draco sits more comfortably in my head. That, and I prefer Olympia's writing style. Never underestimate the importance of style preference in determining what does or doesn't work for you as a reader.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

DON'T GO THERE. TRUST ME. JUST WALK AWAY.

*exits, pursued by woefully misled fans*

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

In my head, I have had The UL Conversation with you many times, S. In it I convince you that while Maya's Draco is not in any way connected to canon, Maya's Draco is the product and essence of *fanon* Draco in such a way that he cannot and should not be discarded, and should be taken on his own rock-star terms, much like we love the world of TotSP because we take it on its own shimmery gossamer terms, while recognizing that it is not strictly in-character either.

In my head, I make brilliant points for this argument and you wind up on your knees begging Maya's forgiveness for being so short-sighted as to think her Draco was just about the pretty hair and the coffee fetish and the witty quips. In my head, of course, Maya also rewards my crusader efforts with snogs. Of the Saul/Jett variety.

However, Livejournal has just taken ten minutes loading this page, and I am not about to waste time typing up my argument only to have it fall upon a deaf server. Livejournal, I fear, is a Very Evil Being.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

just a note on LUW--i could talk about the rest of this ALL DAY but i have three more hours to work and i don't want to short-circuit my brain synapses by sitting here refreshing LJ like I did the other night on your journal, lol: i am always struck by how different the first few chapters are from the rest. i think that had i been writing the fic in retrospect i would have developed them much more and taken more pains to make them more canonical; at the time, however, i was just interested in getting to the plot, which for me doesn't really begin til chapter ten, haha. i glossed over all that stuff in favor of TENSION! and SNOGS! and SEX! and so i am deeply flattered you think it has personality, despite the fact that it obviously lacks depth. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee! dude! at the time i read it -i- was all about the Tension! and Snogs! and Sex! (and I still am! hee). so i think it fit my own parameters nicely (especially since i wasn't jaded yet). i remember re-reading once and going, "awwwwww". hee. sort of in a cutified-yet-sentimental way. i'm too soft on it to go, "OMG WHY IS DRACO SINGING CATHOLIC HYMNS TO A ROSE?!?", y'know :>

it was more, "OMG THEY'RE SNARKING AND IT's SO CUTE, I'M SO DEAD, OMG WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO KISS?! aaack, the -suspense-!!1" hee.
...though this is partly why i think it would help a lot of wip's to be gone over after they're finished, to like... make it all consistent. -i'm- constantly going back to the beginning of my longer fics and rewriting, 'cause the style can't help but change. in a way, luw grew up with the fandom, and with me-in-fandom and obviously with you-in-fandom. it's like... almost dear to me -because- it's a bit goofy by now~:)
i'm glad i didn't offend you, btw. *laughs*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

This is so weird...I'm honestly not sure what I look for in fanfic! I think I've said before that there must be something I need to see in the characters in order for me to keep reading. Sometimes it's not even that there's something I'm looking for, but that I can't stand to see the opposite--this is something that ironically happens so much with Draco. For a static character that's 2-dimensional it's amazing how differently people can see him even in canon! (Though I've recently been thinking about how a lot of things that people dismiss as totally fanon!Draco really are suggested by canon!Draco, they're just not dramatized in canon.)

I think you're onto something, though, in hitting the author's voice. If somebody has something to say--and by that I obviously don't mean they have an agenda, but that they just have a clear idea--I'm going to re-read that fic in ways I wouldn't re-read others.

I'm not sure how far a good writing style will propel me along in fanfic, though. Because sometimes a writer is good and therefore able to say something about the characters that really makes me angry. Usually I can see that and in reviewing the fic I'll say it was well-written but I hated it anyway. At the same time, I totally see what you're saying about a fic having a charm that's unique to itself while others don't. I think people do respond to that even if they don't realize it. Heh--it's almost like Aja's wonderful fic The Reader. It's not just the words Draco is saying, it's the sound of his voice the kids need to hear. When an author has his/her own voice I'm probably more persuaded by their characterization as well, even if I usually wouldn't buy it, because it's *theirs.* I'm not having to fill in myself from canon, or trying to make it work with canon. I'm just inside their world.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

LOL.

But the problem is, Aja, UL is not shimmery and gossamer. There isn't anything stylistically or otherwise that would redeem it for me, as a person who doesn't like Maya's Draco characterization. (I mean, for example, I think everyone is in agreement that the Tri-Wizard Tournament Mach 2 is a pretty weak plot device.)

Maya's Draco is a Mary Sue. He's perfect, handsome, devastatingly witty, blah blah blah. I just don't find characters like that interesting. I see what you're saying about him being merely a riff on fanon!Draco, but given my feelings on that specific type of fanon!Draco, I don't know why Maya writing the Ur-fandom!Draco should be something that I enjoy. It's like saying, "I know you don't like liver, but you should like this because it's the Liveriest Liver of All!"

I just love canon!Draco, and flawed characters in general, way too much to like what fandom has done to him. Since when does calling Harry and Ron "Potty and the Weasel" mean that Draco is another Noel Coward, overflowing with razor-sharp repartee? And given that canon!Draco is whiny and petulant and immature and has the self-control of an incontinent puppy, I don't know where DashinglyNobleAndSelf-Possessed!Draco even comes from. (Well, I have an idea, but I'm going to refrain from saying it.)

So if a fic doesn't have all the things that Olympia's fic has to convince me of a characterization I might not otherwise buy whole-heartedly (and actually, it's not her Draco I found OOC, but Harry), I don't see why I should like it. Maya is not Olympia, and her fic certainly is not Olympia's equal in terms of style or conceptual ambition. Her fic is not an AU, like Olympia's. It's just kind a glossy fantasy that mostly seems to be about how in love she is with her own version of Draco's character. Which is fine, but again: it doesn't do it for me. I'm a lot older and I prefer realism over romance, every single time. I like stories -- and characters -- that are convincingly ambivalent and messy and sometimes downright ugly and unlovable. That's my preference.

If it's any consolation, I don't like SuddenlyNotGreasy!Snape or RockHardAbs!Harry, either.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

dude! at the time i read it -i- was all about the Tension! and Snogs! and Sex!

Just wanted to say, "Me too." And it succeeded gorgeously at that. (I mean, let's not forget my first fic, okay?)

Don't ever worry about apologizing for fics that you wrote a year and a half ago not satisfying what you expect from fics now. Anybody with half a brain will judge you by where you're at currently, rather than where you came from. (And it is precisely the failure of some folks to improve -- like Antenora, for example -- that I find so discouraging.)

And anyway, LUW is great fun, and that Quidditch frottage scene was of HISTORIC IMPORTANCE. *still remembers first time reading it*

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

Interestingly I have never thought of Maya's Draco as a Mary Sue; I have always thought it fairly obvious that he is Maya's ideal of the Ultimate Boyfriend; he doesn't need to measure up to canon because in Maya's head he *is* Draco,and that's really all the justification she needs. It's really a very plebey way of seeing him, but the difference is that Maya is an *excellent* writer, and she writes him *exceedingly* well.

I beta'd UL from chapter 5 on to the most recent one, which i bypassed because i chose to go on beta hiatus for a while. I hated betaing her chapters because I could never find anything wrong with them--and yes, I did have issues with the Hermione pov, but as she utilized that POV switch from there on out I was able to overlook it. Particularly in later chapters I found Maya's writing to be less and less something I could quibble with--even when she's writing fluff, it's written with such confidence; her prose is so totally in her voice that I don't have a problem taking it on her terms.

Something I think is important to keep in mind: Maya's Draco in Underwater Light is an earlier Draco. He is the Draco of the hilarious but absolutely fluffy DMABR. He is not the Draco of her later dark-fics. The very first review I left of UL said basically "I really like this fic, I love the characterization of Harry, but yikes, repeating the TWT?!" I wasn't impressed by her characterization of Draco; I accepted him because he was well-written and I liked her writing, just as I accepted the TWT.

With Maya's earlier writing I have always felt that we overlook the flaws because we love it (just as Reena said somewhere up there). Yes, the TWT repetition is totally implausible. Yes, she brought in Hermione's POV out of nowhere; yes, her Draco is too perfect and noble and witty to be real in anything but a Must-See TV World. Except. Except that he is real to us because he is the Draco we, the fandom at large, have fantasized about--the Draco who *could* be. He bears very, very little resemblance to canon!Draco--you could say that he is a great great grandchild of it, a direct descendent of the Draco Gene by which he has been fantasized and sexualized and transformed from a somewhat cardboard canon characterization of him.

It is absolutely acceptable for you to not like him, and to not be able to overlook those flaws. But the fantasy that Maya constructs for us in UL is no less plausible, really, than the one Dahlia where Harry and Draco find themselves snogging on the Quidditch pitch, or the one I give you where Draco has a thing for Benjamin Britten and Catholic boy choirs, or the one where Draco is a compulsive list-maker. Ultimately, it's just a matter of which fantasy you prefer, and why, and how carefully you choose to integrate that fantasy into the world of canon.

I am *not* saying that it's admirable that all these people have UL on their desert-island lists as opposed to Maya's more canonical fics; nor am I saying that you should like it too--I'd be very surprised and possibly disappointed if you re-read it and suddenly changed your mind, haha. What I *am* saying is that ultimately it's Maya you're all taking with you to your desert island--it's Maya's warmth and love for her characters and bubbly spirit and passion that they're responding to in UL, not the specific fact that her Draco is a blond sex god who had Harry at hello. They're responding to the same things, I would imagine, that you responded to in Your Every Wish--only they're choosing to view them through the rose-colored lens that Maya has provided, instead of the dark-tint.

:)

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

STILL AND ALWAYS I LOVE ANTENORA.

also, i just want to *PREEN!* because i never imagined that that quidditch frottage scene would be such a big deal, and to this day it cracks me up to no end.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I think this has to do with me partially knowing that Maya sees it as an extrapolation of canon, as her idea of what Draco's like. That's why I mentioned it, actually... because wow, look, people can see canon in very different ways~:) And while I agree with you that in canon, Draco's very far from charming & witty & shiny, you know.... hey. I think Maya sincerely has a vision of him as... you know... er. Underloved. As deserving love. And er... yeah. Just because it may not work for everyone doesn't make it less of an extapolation, y'know? That's what I meant.

Actually, Sex-God!Draco and Mr-Popularity!Draco are my pet-peeve characterizations along with Poor-Widdle-Abused!Draco and so on, and I generally don't like most people's fanon Draco-- unless it seems as if the conception of him has depth and spirit, which is rare, 'cause as you said, it's ripe for Mary Suism. Which is why I have this h8-on for almost all versions except Maya's and Cassie Claire's. They seem... full of the genuine love of their author.

And I agree with Aja that the reason -I- enjoy it is Maya's voice behind it all, really. As far as UL!Draco being canonical... I can choose to see him that way as long as Maya's behind it. It's not so much that it makes sense intellectually as I enjoy the fantasy and I enjoy the over-the-top cuteness and genuine emotion behind it. There's also the fact that her Draco's -not- perfect, really, he just appears that way. True, Harry's completely wonked and zonked... but. You know. Er. I never said it was a canonically-correct Harry. I mean, I enjoy their snark and whole dynamic on its own merits, and because it's described so warmly. I don't really analyze it other than on its own terms.

And the reason I didn't take Maya's non-UL fics (which I actually admire more and am probably more enamoured of, like `Hatred' for instance) is because I don't tend to want to revisit the painful things. `Every Second' is really a huge exception to that rule and probably only works because it's so short and concentrated and almost ecstatic in its passion.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Dude, I'm so totally guilty about my residual affection for IP. *Has repeatedly tried to cleanse self, but failed*
Sigh.
It's got to be like, the 3rd fic I'd read in the fandom, you know. I need lee-way, here :D :D

I still think it's better than ff.net-quality badfic, if only because... er... it's got that basic level of (misused) sophistication and (largely metaphorically-based) complexity which admittedly doesn't really go anywhere.
I also am a sucker for overwrought romance of a certain kind... and IP is just a -classic- tear-jerker bodice-ripper (or really, some modernized version of a Gothic Romance, maybe) in a way. *laughs*

I really like how Rhysenn has all this theoretical, crystalline structure she's trying to push-- I mean the guiding images, not the people. The people are like, slaves to the concepts, almost.
I like looking at it abstractly, seeing how it's all a meditation on possession or whatnot.

I can see how one could easily see it as pretentious, but I honestly don't think it's meant that way. Or at least I don't feel like it is, maybe because I've read so many fics of this type at one point. I actually grew rather disappointed with it after the long wait which culminated in chapter 13, I think it was(?)

I read it before I had any strong concept of Harry or Draco in my mind, so mostly I remember the way it swept along like some tiara'd make-believe princess. So really, it's my own sentimentality in even mentioning it. Even so, I believe the things it fails at are somehow on a higher level than the things most fics out there fail at. I can also see your point that it's better to not even try for some things and succeed on your own terms, but. I'm particularly partial to fairy-tale metaphor & meta stuff apart from my desire to not be lied to. I dunno how they coexist, but they do :/

In a way, it's a fairy-tale, basically, though not as well-told as it could be. But then, I'm the sort of person who'd read a chapter titled "Splintered Love" and sigh.
I'm really hopelessly dorky and naive in some ways~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hahah, the chapter's actually "Splintered" and subtitled "Love is a many splintered thing", ehehheeh.
I actually wouldn't go for the "splintered love" thing. Also, I think maybe I forgive metaphorical over-indulgence more than overly dry directness and woodenness and banality, simply because I myself have been known to write quite "ecstatically", to quote my HS English teacher~:)

I actually prefer a balance between apt imagery and directness, but if having to -choose- between transparency and a heavy visual abstractness, I don't necessarily know which I'd pick. Probably transparency, but.... *sigh*

What I'm saying is, while my ideals mirror yours in most ways, I'm more tolerant towards Rhysenn-type stylistic `sins' because I am indeed a sinner~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that whole even-more-annoyed-with-good-writing thing does happen, as it did with Shalott and `Weather of the Heart'. Really -anything- that pisses me off would have to clear a certain writing-level hurdle, 'cause reallyreally badly written fic just... makes me laugh~:) I mean... it's like picking on little children to mock it, since it mocks itself.

So maybe it's surprising 'cause I'm pretty tolerant and most visions of the characters are okay as long as they're written well and I'm somehow made to -like- that character.
Even so, liking a characterization is different than liking a voice or a story itself.
I like Silvia's Draco entirely apart from her style, voice or plots. heh. I can't even remember most of her plots.

Also, I adore Amalin's fic without having the slightest interest in her Draco -or- her Harry, which are pretty nondescript, really. While OOC as well, but in a non-offensive way, somehow ^^;

Maybe that's why I feel like I'm "friends" with the writer if I like their work enough, whether it's fanfic or original fic. I grow to feel like I know them, like I can "hear" them.
It's interesting considering ishuca insistence on separating herself from her stories-- a lot of people say their stories kind of "tell themselves" to them, and it's not really about -them- (which I would agree with). I mean, just because a writer writes darkfic doesn't make them obsessed with darkness and pain or whatever. Just because I may write humor/sillyfic doesn't make me a happy bubbly person, and so on.

But regardless, if I don't feel the voice, I'm not interested, usually. I almost always feel the voice behind a powerful piece of fiction, even a piece written "in the voice" of one of the characters. I can't really quantify it, but usually you can only see it by reading several works by that author rather than just the one.

I don't even know why it's so important to me, except that it feels like it grounds me, gives a frame to it all.
And maybe that frame acts as a point of reference, a key to understanding the piece that I can use to connect with it, to decipher it, maybe. Otherwise I wouldn't know where to start, maybe? I'm not sure ^^

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was a great essay~:)
It also reassured me about my troubling squick at Kirk/Spock, considering how much I adore their dynamic in the show & in the commercial gen novels I'd read so much of. It really hit home when you said that about wanting it to remain a "deep, unspoken something". It's a great way of putting it. Sometimes it feels like what's already there is so intense and so meaningful, that to define it further for be to break it somehow. I dunno. I've heard a few arguments as to how Kirk & Spock are so obviously into each other, and funny thing is, I agree. But if it became actual rather than sublimated, I think the story would just -change- irrevocably. It would totally go AU, and that's just kinda painful for some reason.

With HP, on the other hand, especially the H/D pairing, it's all about the potential, since in canon they have less than nothing-- they have a negative. Change is the order of the day. So basically, it comes down to what sort of change and how much change and how believable of a change it is~:)
Strangely enough, I never really found fanfic in the fandoms I wanted "more" in. I wanted more of several anime that ended badly, but there really wasn't anything. It seems like the "fill in the blanks" fandoms are just... bigger.

And yeah, the OTP thing is like the well-needed oil for the process of reading H/D fic and other not-really-all-that-realistic-of-a-pairing fic. I wanted to believe it even before it was my OTP, because of the -sort- of dynamic it is, and me being a sucker for that sort of thing. As soon as I had the merest hint of its posibility, I was like, OMG! THIS! THIS!
I was the same way when I first saw Buffy/Spike in the fake-marriage episode. I was totally bowled over with revelation, heh. Although that was before I -knew- about online fanfic, sadly. I'm a bit scared thinking of having a het heyday of some sort, though.

Canon visions reminds me of thamiris's post on A-template vs. B-template and how we all have a version of "reality" in our heads that we compare everything to, which was presumably formed at the initial brush with canon. This is so weird for me in the HP fandom 'cause I came in contact with fanon first (unless you count the movie and like, 10 pages of book 1). It all rode on my instinctive preferences and the sorts of archetypes I like~:) It still does. I'll accept anything that is "attractive" yet believable to me, for lack of a better word.

I know what you mean. I too, am split between liking Draco to be as bratty and bitchy and whiny and pathetic as possible and liking him to be snarky and witty too (I'm only human). And yeah, I think it's because in canon, there's only so far to take him without changing him, and within the range of choices, one picks the one most attractive. Canon!Draco seems... rather caricaturish too, but at least it's not painful the way a Gary-Stu!Draco is painful. Then again, almost no one -writes- canon!Draco, anyway, so it's not like I have a lot of lee-way if I want to read more than one fic a year.

Heehehe, DarkSeducer!Harry is more canonical as well. They're both more angry and desperate and likely to do "bad things", eheheh. Which is definitely all right with me~:) I don't think he'd seduce Harry... if anything, the problem is that I don't think of Harry as seducible (Draco would have to actually be -cool- and -sexy- for that to work)... wheareas I think of -Draco- as plenty seducible, possibly by Harry being mean to him or beating him up or just getting in his face or... well :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I definitely see style preference dictating my own tastes all over the place. With Olympia, I disliked a Harry who slept around too much to really -care- as much as I usually would about their relationship. I'm much more susceptible to denied love and earnest-and-oblivious!Harry and desperate!Draco (though Olympia's Draco is desperate too... heee... I totally have to -love- the fic to overlook a lack of desperation in Draco :D :D )

I've never found a fic to be "too canonical" so far, ahahah. Well, unless by "too canonical" you'd mean "no slash" :D
Really, I have way too many problems with most chaptered fics to stand behind any one fic all the way. It's depressing. Which is why I sometimes fall back to sailing on my old one-night-stand infatuation with IP and `Brief Interval Before the Resumption of Play'. Otherwise I'd come back to my initial stance of "Oh God, It's All Crap!!" heh~:)

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Aja, this doesn't have anything to do with Maya as a person and whether I want her bubbliness and her boob icons along with me on the desert island. Please don't use my feelings about UL as a diagnostic regarding my feelings for Maya, because I don't think either of us will be happy with the result. I don't think it's wise to personalize things this way, and basically what your logic says is that anyone who doesn't like my fics, doesn't like me either. Which may indeed be true, but I would hope ain't necessarily so.

I just disagree with you, that's all. You like Maya, you like her fics, you enjoy her Draco ... therefore my criticisms don't resonate for you. Which is absolutely fine. But that doesn't make my own problems with her writing any less real.

And this argument is completely circular, Aja. You can't say that "Well, her Draco is just as believable as anyone else's, 'cos look at Olympia and Dahlia, etc. etc. etc." Because I think UL is poorly written and poorly constructed. I can go back to the actual text and come up with examples but I'd really rather not.

So I'm not going to compare her to someone like Olympia or Dahlia, because frankly I think it's an insult to those two authors. Maya is self-indulgent in her writing in a way neither of these writers are, because Maya doesn't seem to have any distance from her characters. And again, I am not going to compare her understanding of technique or craft to the work of folks who are much more experienced, knowledgable, and skilled than she is. It's not fair to anyone. If you think as a beta her fic is unimprovable, that's your opinion, Aja. I'm happy that some folks feel that way, but I don't.

Then you turn around and say, "Okay, she has had technical problems but the reason we love this fic is 'cos we love her Draco." Do you see how your logic goes around in a circle here?

'Cos I don't love Maya's Draco and I don't think she writes him "exceedingly well," so why should I overlook her story's technical flaws? She makes me hate Draco, and hate fandom for wanting him to be this silly idealized version of what they think their Twoo Luv will someday be. I am not interested in Maya's Fantasy Boyfriend (or anyone else's). He is not the Draco I "fantasize" about. I don't like cardboard characters.

To me, this version of Draco reads as the product of limited romantic experience and imagination, and as someone who's been wined, dined, wooed, and been in one relationship after another over the past 15 years, I think I can say without reservation that this Draco is someone I want nothing to do with, in fandom or real life. I need fics that reflect my understanding of reality in some way. That doesn't mean that they need to be gritty -- I like happy stories and happy endings more than sad ones -- but this fandom version of Draco is too perfect to be true, and I don't get any pleasure in that. I get pleasure in seeing normal, flawed people being capable of amazing things. Not this perfect blonde ice-god tossing off witticisms and leaving a trail of swooning fangirls in his wake.

I don't find UL believable or funny or enjoyable. That's why I no longer read it. And I think we should probably not discuss this further, because I don't want to upset you (or Maya), and I am kind of getting freaked out here by you wanting to convert me to the One True Way of Mayadom. I've given reasons for my opinion; I think they're valid ones; and while you don't have to agree, I don't you can change another person's mind when it comes to things like lowering their own personal standards for writing or what kind of characters they simply like or don't like.

Okay? *hugs*

[darklites.livejournal.com]

What makes fanfic work for me, I think, is the emotional reaction I get from it. This is why I can like stuff like Hpgryffin because even though it's completely silly, there is something sort of gleefully amusing about it. I can like the silliest fics as well as the best-constructed ones, although I do separate them in my mind.

But if there's a characterisation I cannot agree with, I find it *very* difficult to get into the writing, even if it is very good. I need to believe in it, at least within the bounds of the fic, to get into it emotionally. I half-read MamaLaz's "I'm Not In Denial", but when I read Draco's Odes to "Weasley's Hotness", I hightailed out of there. This may be just me, but I simply cannot find Ron attractive sexually, and I *cannot* imagine Draco doing so under any circumstances (let alone anyone, haha), so nothing could have saved it for me there. I agree wholeheartedly about "Empty Chairs At Empty Tables" -- ARGH. DIE. DIE. NOW. Okay, I feel better. :) I also have Issues with UL's characterisations of Harry and Draco, although I do really like and enjoy the fic. I know he is sort of the IceKing!Draco most people make an exception for, but something about him doesn't resonate quite true with me -- something about him is a little too polished. It does hinder my enjoyment of the fic a little bit... I don't really connect that emotionally with it, so I just enjoy the sparkly champagne-ness of it (dialogue is much fun, and much with the cute :)), and its plot is also starting to have real substance, which I'm really interested in.

(Sometimes I wonder why I don't have a problem with Trilogy!Draco, because he is definitely an incarnation of this kind of Draco, and I think it may be because underneath everything, Trilogy!Draco is everything opposite from his outer self -- and we get to *SEE* this. He has very very real weaknesses. And for example, let's take another Maya fic, Dark Side of Light, and I *completely* connected emotionally with that, because its Draco's pain and weakness seemed more real. Is that it? Hm.) I also still have not finished Lust Over Pendle, but this is a purely selfish thing because it hurts me how short-shrifted Harry is in that fic. I see where the characterisation comes from, but it just doesn't work for me. Draco also seems to shifted from his canonical character that it feels like AU, unbelievable AU. I feel like its Draco has become an adult, but its Harry is still the fifteen-year-old he was in canon. This baffles me. I wish that fic wasn't HP fanfic so I could read it without prejudiced emotional ties to the characters. I've still not finished it though, so I guess I can't really say much, and this may be just my own problem.

Emotional impact is why I still love IP. Damn it, it was the first fic I read in the Harry Potter fandom, and damn it, it made me start to fall in love with H/D, and I'll never forget the way it felt when I first read it. It really *got* to me, and so I can forgive its flowery prose. For me, it's less a fic than a rite of passage or ... something. I think IP, despite everything else, is quite tight -- and yeah, the ending is a little weak, but how else could it have really gone?

I like your definition of "fluff that takes itself seriously". 'Checkmate' gives me a sugar-headache, and not in a good way. I tried reading it and failed dramatically. Haha. I also agree that few fics meet up to canon in terms of characterisation -- and yes, 'Red' really does come close, for both central characters. (The bit where Draco kicked the lockers and then went around hopping on his foot -- damn, I love that.) I agree about 'Sins of the Father' Harry for Pre-OotP (I'm totally not caught up on that fic though), but not Origins (although I do love that Harry), and 'The More Things Change' too, though it's been eons since I read it. Silvia, perhaps, but I think her writing's extrapolative, too.

OMG, I exceeded character-length! This is a first. Okay, to be cont...

[darklites.livejournal.com]

In terms of -my- response... I greatly admire it but have no deep emotional investment in it, post-reading. UL, which is more of a canon-based fic, I have an investment in, but I don't think it's -because- it's extrapolative but rather because I simply like that Draco more, that's all.

Maybe that's how it works... hm. Because the end of 'The Simple Things' and the entirety of 'Orpheus In Motion' KILLED me as I read them, and as for UL -- I really enjoy it but have no real emotional investment in it. Is it because that Draco doesn't work quite as well for me -- that the extrapolation becomes more of an issue? I have no idea. It's perhaps a bit of a more selfish thing -- what kind of character do *you* see them to be?

That was really jumbled. But yeah, emotional impact. It's all about that, baby. :D

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Personal theory:

Being popular has nothing to do with being good. Popular has to do with mass appeal. (This is not to say that you can't be both, though it's harder. Mass appeal is easy to achieve, though "good" is subjective based on the criteria of each individual. Prime example: reality shows. Everyone I can think of hates reality shows. Yet they're insanely popular.)

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Which is why I have this h8-on for almost all versions except Maya's and Cassie Claire's. They seem... full of the genuine love of their author.

But, you know, I love Draco, too. Plenty of people do. Just not the version these authors write. I get really uncomfortable with this sort of argument, because, you know, Draco no more belongs to CC or Maya than it does to anyone else except JKR, so I don't quite see how they're any more entitled to Mary-Sue him right out of canon.

Love and sincerity are not at issue here. You can believe in a certain characterization with your whole heart, you know, but that doesn't mean that certain characterizations aren't less accurate than others. And when it comes to canon!Draco: Maya and CC's versions have nothing to do with the brat in the books. And that brat is the Draco I love.

I mean, you could use the exact same argument here to defend some of my most painful Lucius/Draco fics, which most folks find so disturbing that I took them off the net months ago. There's a lot of love and sincerity and depth and spirit there, too. And sympathy. I'm being 100% serious here. Those emotions are very real for me ... this is why Lucius/Draco is my favorite pairing, and the only one that kicks me in the gut, when done well, the way other pairings don't do.

But that doesn't mean that everyone has to love or agree with or even respect my interpretation of that character or his dynamic with his father. Just because an author is in love with her characters doesn't mean that the rest of us have to be.

*shrugs*

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

:D :D :D

Being popular doesn't mean something isn't good, either. It's just that these two things need to be considered separately from each other, which is something that a lot of people are uncomfortable doing, for whatever reason.

It's like confidence: There's no connection between confidence and talent. I know some blissfully oblivious (and hence, to me, teeth-grindingly annoying) people in fandom who churn out shit, but I also know plenty of folks like this who write fantastic stories. On the other hand, some of the people who berate themselves for not being good enough are right to think that their fics suck, whereas others are plenty talented enough; they're just unable to evaluate their own work sympathetically and objectively.

No connection. Nope. None at all.

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Which is part of what makes it so hard to judge fanfics. Not only are we working on subjective criteria (you say tomato, I say tomahto) but we're also working within a culture of vapid niceness. Objectivity is often spurned in favour of not hurting someone's feelings.

The other side is true. Often people go too far with excessive criticism simply because they dislike the author, or hate the main character of the story, or they accidentally stubbed their toe that morning. (Usually it's more from passive-aggressive tactics than any sort of non-fandom greivance, but hey, anything's possible.)

That's why I've finally decided that it's impossible to qualify anything in fandom. It's prejudiced toward "the good" equally "the popular," passive-aggressive tactics (This person says my fic is crap, therefore I refuse to archive them/defriend them/melodrama of the hour!), and just the idea that apparently feelings are more important than the basic ability to spell consistantly.

But I'm bitter. Don't mind me. ^_^

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

The good equaling the popular.

Don't mind me, I seem to have lost the ability to multi-task!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heh. Honestly, I often wonder just what sort of crack I'm on. Heh. I didn't mean that UL!Draco should be loved by the readers in general because he's loved by his author, not at all. I just mean er... I find him to be more alive and really charming than the more wallpaper-like versions of him out there. Not that I can think of a lot of those type of Draco's since I was probably too traumatized to remember ^^;

I was never saying anyone has to love or appreciate UL or its Draco-- I only mentioned it by way of saying its author meant it as a version of canon!Draco and that's genuinely what she sees. I actually wasn't sure whether to include him, and it was sort of a "hmmm" addition. I myself tend to respond to the writer's emotion as it's evident through the characters' portrayal... if Lucius/Draco didn't freak me out, I'd even offer to demonstrate it to you somehow. Heh. Mostly... I can't see how parent-child incest can ever be a happy thing. Even if the child doesn't see it as painful or whatever, the parent still has to be rather awful to do that to their child.

I never even would begin to imply Draco belongs to a fanfic writer. *laughs*
But one can certain personalize him extensively~:))
Which takes him further and further away from canon, of course. Actually, I just enjoy Maya's fic without really needing it to be canonically rigorous (though I think Maya means it to be) because it has an emotional center that works for me. That's what I meant. I -think-, anyway. It's after 3am, so I"m not sure ;)

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

I can't see how parent-child incest can ever be a happy thing. Even if the child doesn't see it as painful or whatever, the parent still has to be rather awful to do that to their child.

Oh. Erk. Eek. Sorry about that.

No, I wasn't saying that I think incest is happy. To the contrary! All I'm saying is that those painful L/D stories of mine have an emotional center that is just as sincere as Maya's bubbly UL. That's all.

Which is to say that I just don't think that the author's investment in the fic is any guarantee of its quality.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

erk? I didn't mean ...er. Yeah. I think we're both agreeing except awkwardly. Or something :-?
Sometimes I do find that a writer I already am on the frequency of would be able to compensate for some things I find questionable in that particular fic by the sheer intensity of emotion I can feel in it.

Aja does that, especially with `Every Second', but with other fics too. I'm just particularly sensitive to that, though~:)

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Well, I stick pretty determined to the principle that concrit is CONcrit. The best feedback I've received has been more negative than positive, because it helped me to improve. I mean, I've received some really harsh fb in my time, but even though I hated getting it, it pushed me to work harder. And so I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume that they want to hear what works for me as a reader and what doesn't.

'Cos this is what I want to hear from others.

Also, I'm in academia, so this is just standard. Collegiality means being able to be very critical in a cordial way. Concrit is not flaming. You can pretty harsh on someone's work but as long as you support your argument with evidence and try to phrase your opinions tactfully, most people's feelings won't be hurt.

So I have to say that people have been almost universally cool with this during my time in fandom ... even when they disagreed very strongly about the fic in question. (Like my debates with Aja and Reena above.) The *only* people who have used the fact that I didn't like their fics (or someone else's) as a reason to dislike me, oddly enough, haven't been the unpopular writers or the ff.net plebes, but a couple of the reallly super-popular writers. I guess they interpreted my reaction, in the context of the incessant fangirling they receive, as bitchery or elitism.

Anyway, I get impatient with folks in fandom who insist upon only saying positive things, because ... hello? What do you think people do in real life? Are you going to collapse into tears the first time one of your publications gets rejected? When you get a negative performance review? Are you going to decide that anyone who criticizes you is an idiot and a bitch and sux0r?

Or -- as long as the criticism is phrased helpfully and graciously -- are you going to try to learn from it?

On the other hand, this also means that those of us who give concrit also have an obligation to do it as kindly as possible, and to separate the writer from the work. I think everyone goes through phases of thinking "God, I'm surrounded by idiots," (*squints at your username*), but I think that this is best left unspoken. If the reviewer consistently takes the attitude of "I'm right and you're all wrong," it's only going to alienate other people from listening to what the reviewer is trying to say.

Gah, I ought to betaing right now.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think we're in agreement, too.

I mean, we're not all that different as readers than as writers. Everybody has a certain emotional territory in which they write, so when it comes to stories written by others, the ones that best fit into this landscape are naturally going to be easier to love.

And Maya and I definitely don't live in the same neighborhood, so ... ;)

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

The idea of CONcrit (which, like you, I adhere to coming from an academic standpoint, and even worse, a degree in English) is even in flux. Look at the discussion of Maya's Ur-Draco, for example. Or Cassie Claire's Ur-Draco. One reader will see those as more canon than canon and the next reader will spend the entire time wondering "Where did that come from?" Even the critical focus is different from reader to reader. I'm a plot and world whore who froths at inconsistancies or plot holes/deus ex machinas. (Which is why the Harry Potter books alternately delight me and enrage me! ^_-) But the main consensus (as I see it) is that most people really read fanfics for the characters. So it's obvious that something I froth over (Snape and Harry get hit with a strange combination of hexes that cause them to fall wildly in love with each other) would fly with someone else who enjoys the story because Snape and Harry snark at each other and the characterisation is internally consistant and fun.

So how can you judge "good" on a general basis? Strictly speaking, the only thing that people could agree on would be spelling and grammar. Even that's up for debate with semantic drift and the differences between American English and British English (which is made even more confusing given that the books are published with American standard in America, where a signifigant portion of the fandom is writing from).

Sometimes those standards aren't even considered necessary to being "good." There's quite a few popular fanfics that make me wince or my eyes bleed as I read through them because of the mistakes and errors.

So I just tend to chalk it up to that amorphous quality of "appeal." It's easier than wading through everything..

(As a point, the LJ name is more a reference to my job than fandom. ^_-)

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

Urgh, see, this is the problem with the way I think, I automatically assume people read between my lines and I don't need to explain what I mean. I should have elaborated last night, forgive me.

I was not trying to say that since you don't like UL it's Maya herself you have issues with; all I meant was that Maya is a writer puts just as much of herself into UL as she does a fic like Your Every Wish, and that you don't have to prefer one over the other. I did think I made it clear I wasn't trying to convert you, but I'll just reiterate that my poorly constructed argument was an attempt to explain to you why we like it, not an attempt to say that you should do so too. I mean, granted, it seems as if you didn't need to have the phenomenon explained to you; BUT THEN I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD ANYTHING ELSE TO SAY. *sulks*

EMPTY CHAIRS, MAN. EMPTY CHAIRS.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

This sort of gets to the heart of things in fanfic for me--particularly with something like UL because I generally dislike a Draco who is witty and controlled because the whole basis of him in canon, for me, is that he's this ball of ugly feelings. He WANTS desperately and always fails to GET. Humiliation and rejection are his defining characteristics. I like to call him the Wile E. Coyote of Potterverse--the universe is bent on making sure he's forever hungry but he keeps going after that roadrunner with his ridiculous schemes even though by now catching him would hardly justify the trouble to which he's gone.

So frankly, it surprises me that I can still enjoy UL Draco. He must appeal to me on some canonical basis. Strangley, I really don't think of him as smooth and perfect. When I think of him I tend to think of his getting overexcited about the things he's into, his needing attention, his innocent take on the world. I wouldn't ever want him as a boyfriend though--totally high maintenance! I definitely don't mean this as a hard-sell that you should see him this way, it just has always interested me how much I enjoy UL given that I normally turn away from winner!Draco as being the antithesis of the real thing. It usually makes me stop reading.

Also, though, this brings up something I've been thinking about Draco in general. We all consider the smooth, confident boy of fanon to be wrong given the scrappy, often blundering mess we see in canon. At the same time though, I've recently wanted to look more closely at the fanon conventions and how they relate to canon. After all, Draco is supposed to be an aristocrat. He's the leader of his house despite being an underclassman. JKR says he's the "smart" mean kid who knows how to say things that truly hurt. We're told he "holds court" at the Slytherin table. Yet for me it's hard to imagine any of these things being true of the boy we see in most canon scenes. He shows no breeding, his insults are rarely truly cutting, he seems far too immature to be 15. He would never command the respect he does given what we've seen. I think, therefore, that it's a great idea for a writer to consider the idea that there is another side to Draco Harry doesn't see (there'd have to be) and try to truly blend these two sides believeably. I do think it can be done, it's just very difficult. Unfortunately it's probably just easier for people to create the Draco that Draco wishes he was or something and write that.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

"Empty Chairs At Empty Tables" -- ARGH. DIE. DIE. NOW. Okay, I feel better. :)

SO DO I. Hahaha.

And YES YES YES OMG YES re Checkmate. I hate that fic, haha. *clutches head*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eee! I love the (rather obvious, but helpful) idea that most of us read for the characters. We do, don't we? I mean, I know I read for style as much as characters, and would maybe sometimes even pick style -over- a lack of overt characterization of any kind (though that's really only about one author). Part of the reason -I- don't read for plot is because while characterizations are often interesting, plots are almost -always- unoriginal, outlandish, boring or downright sucky. If I were to construct some hierarchy of "best plotted HP fanfics", I'd have to think for a -really- long time, because dude! I can't think of anything!

I think maybe Veela Magic, but I'm not into political-type intrigue if that's what was drawing me in (which is another thing-- I've long-developed preferences for fantasy plots rather than er... the usual political/social-scheming plots which is what -everybody- does). I would also say Plague of Legends, but I have -severe- issues with being ickified by the characterization (even though I can see how it's necessary). I would say `Lustre' had a nice plot, but really, I read it for the style. If I started analyzing the plot I'd just kinda smirk.

They're all shades of stupid, man-- if I'm judging by independent "how good is this idea" standards.
I mean, I won't take plot -over- characterization because then it's a mere idea, which... well... anyone can have an idea. You need to -care- about it.
On the other hand, I'm too obsessed with over-analyzing everything to just quit and say, "oh well, it's all amorphous and subjective". But that's just the obsession speaking~:)

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Well it is all amorphous and subjective!

You can set a standard for yourself (I know I have) but having some sort of general standard of good? Impossible, given the way the fandom population is in flux. The closest thing to good we have as a general standard is "highly recommended," "classic," or "popular." (Which was my original point. It's possible to be both, but on the whole, popular isn't a social standard of good.)

I personally read for plot because a good story will make me care about the characters, regardless of whether I would on their own merit. Something like Lust Over Pendle, for example. Or Resonant's Transfigurations. The characterizations are shaky and often we see Ur-characterizations of Draco and Harry, but the plot is good enough that I care about them anyway despite the incomprehensible changes.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

The interesting thing is that characterization-based-on-plot is something that does happen commonly enough with my reading of original fic, actually. I think I've just gotten ridiculously picky about my Harry & Draco, whereas I'm not as picky about plot-devices. I think it has to do with not so much measuring them against "canon" but against the versions I like best, in my head. It's like, I play favorites so much that only really good writing (which I suppose includes plot) gets me to relinquish my tight grip on my!H/D. Also, I have this visceral gun-reaction-level annoyance with certain characterizations that is next to impossible to overcome.

I think this is what's called "reading for the OTP", though~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I suppose the question, for me, arises with pondering -where- this emotional impact originates from~:)
Considering that the same fics don't get the same reactions from everybody, obviously.

For instance... I considered Olympia's fics beautifully written, conceived and executed but I couldn't help but have way too much distance from cheating!Harry and amoral-scientist!Draco. While they didn't offend my sensibilities -too- much (though the cheating problem really really annoyed me at some points since I seriously cannot imagine a Harry who's like that, really-- I'm with Ivy on that)... nothing about them really caught my imagination. Whereas even though I similarly find UL!Draco hard to believe yet mostly inoffensive... he still captures my imagination simply because I identify with Harry's sweet and simple infatuation a lot more.

Perhaps my emotions are more simple and adolescent myself, I don't know~:) There's an immediacy and sublimated passion to their dynamic that is essential to me in H/D. Even fics that barely have anything else right will have emotional investment from me merely because they seem to understand that they're -desperate- for each other and no one else (*insert picture of Draco's silhouette swooning in Harry's arms against the backdrop of twilight on the Seine here*). Heh. Second order of business is making Draco a bastard, but not so much that Harry can't top him. *laughs*

So yeah, I'm interested in looking at the currents moving in H/D fic in particular that -create- those emotional attachments and instinctive IC/OOC judgements and so on.

Not that there's any point to it, really~:)

Part the First

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was a great essay~:)

Thanks! *G*

With HP, on the other hand, especially the H/D pairing, it's all about the potential, since in canon they have less than nothing-- they have a negative. Change is the order of the day. So basically, it comes down to what sort of change and how much change and how believable of a change it is~:) Strangely enough, I never really found fanfic in the fandoms I wanted "more" in. I wanted more of several anime that ended badly, but there really wasn't anything. It seems like the "fill in the blanks" fandoms are just... bigger.

Well, my theory is that the source material that attracts the most people walks a fine line between just good enough and just flawed enough, so that supports the hypothesis. And I don't really see negative potential in H/D, but rather adversarial potential. It's still passion and obsession and desire, but rooted in rivalry rather than friendship.

And yeah, the OTP thing is like the well-needed oil for the process of reading H/D fic and other not-really-all-that-realistic-of-a-pairing fic. I wanted to believe it even before it was my OTP, because of the -sort- of dynamic it is, and me being a sucker for that sort of thing. As soon as I had the merest hint of its posibility, I was like, OMG! THIS! THIS!

Yes, that's it exactly, though if I were forced to name an OTP in HP fandom, it would actually be Sirius/Remus. Hmm, I wonder if one can be OTP about multiple pairings so long as they are mutually exclusive. Hmm.

Canon visions reminds me of thamiris's post on A-template vs. B-template and how we all have a version of "reality" in our heads that we compare everything to, which was presumably formed at the initial brush with canon.

I remember that essay, though I can't remember the specifics. I do remember it had some great points similar to what I said in my essay, only much more eloquent. *G* I also think that which "version" you're exposed to initially affects your template, and this is borne out, I believe, in arenas outside of fandom. Often there are other reasons to prefer one version of something over another, but it does seem that initial exposure has something to do with it.

This is so weird for me in the HP fandom 'cause I came in contact with fanon first (unless you count the movie and like, 10 pages of book 1). It all rode on my instinctive preferences and the sorts of archetypes I like~:) It still does. I'll accept anything that is "attractive" yet believable to me, for lack of a better word.

I started to read the first book in the bookstore, lost interest and put it down. Then I saw the first movie, liked it, read some fanfic, saw the second movie and liked it, and went ahead and bought the books. Once I made it past the first chapter of book one, I was hooked. Still, I have often wondered if that isn't one reason my readings of the characters are more "fluid." I tend to only like a movie based on a book if I see the movie first. If I read the book first, I almost inevitably prefer it. As it is, I love both books and movies in HP, and I do think there are some significant differences in characterization.

(tbc)

Part the Second

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. I too, am split between liking Draco to be as bratty and bitchy and whiny and pathetic as possible and liking him to be snarky and witty too (I'm only human). And yeah, I think it's because in canon, there's only so far to take him without changing him, and within the range of choices, one picks the one most attractive.

Particularly when writing het or slash, you pick the one you believe will be most attractive to the potential partner, which usually means the one most attractive to you. Also, most of the H/D I've read ages the boys up, and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a more mature Draco who would appeal to Harry would have grown out of whiny and into witty, out of bratty and into snarky. The other choice is that he goes the route of his father, who may have his own appeal to fans, but who I cannot see as attractive to Harry. And therein, I think, lies part of the reason I can accept a certain fanon!Draco. I need someone I can believe Harry falling for. That said, I still do want to see the roots of canon!Draco from which the characer sprang.

Heehehe, DarkSeducer!Harry is more canonical as well. They're both more angry and desperate and likely to do "bad things", eheheh. Which is definitely all right with me~:) I don't think he'd seduce Harry... if anything, the problem is that I don't think of Harry as seducible (Draco would have to actually be -cool- and -sexy- for that to work)... wheareas I think of -Draco- as plenty seducible, possibly by Harry being mean to him or beating him up or just getting in his face or... well :D

While I think Dark!Harry is canonical (and close to canon on a few occasions), I don't think Seducer!Harry is. Seduction, to my mind, requires a certain amount of deliberate thought and channelling of passion. Harry's learning some control over his passion, yes, but I don't know that I can ever see him focusing it into seduction. I can't even see him really flirting. Of course, I also believe someone can allow himself to be seduced even if the seducer isn't actually doing anything. That's part of what obsession is, I think. And that is very, very Draco, to my mind. Part of the reason I can see darkseducer!Draco is I can see him getting fed up with Harry not even being aware, and deciding to make him aware. Which is a pretty, pretty picture, to my mind. *G*

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I definitely see style preference dictating my own tastes all over the place. With Olympia, I disliked a Harry who slept around too much to really -care- as much as I usually would about their relationship. I'm much more susceptible to denied love and earnest-and-oblivious!Harry and desperate!Draco (though Olympia's Draco is desperate too... heee... I totally have to -love- the fic to overlook a lack of desperation in Draco :D :D )

That is definitely a difficulty I had with the story. I just can't see Harry being promiscuous when he had the opportunity for monogamy. It doesn't strike me as quite in-character. Still, it worked within the story and as I said, I love Olympia's style. *G*

I've never found a fic to be "too canonical" so far, ahahah. Well, unless by "too canonical" you'd mean "no slash" :D

No, especially since I'm not inclined to say slash of certain pairings isn't as canonical as, say, Ron/Hermione (still not officially together in the books) or Harry/Ginny (merely a bit of foreshadowing on the horizon as yet). *G* What I meant was simply that I occasionally encounter a story where it's clear how the author got the characterization she did, and it's well-supported in canon, but it's very different from my interpretation of canon (usually also well-supported, I should add), and so I don't like it as much as another story in which the characterization is not quite as well-founded. Does that make more sense?

Really, I have way too many problems with most chaptered fics to stand behind any one fic all the way. It's depressing. Which is why I sometimes fall back to sailing on my old one-night-stand infatuation with IP and `Brief Interval Before the Resumption of Play'. Otherwise I'd come back to my initial stance of "Oh God, It's All Crap!!" heh~:)

*snicker* It's true of most fandoms I've run across that the longer a story is, the more it becomes dependent on its own canon as opposed to the source material. I'm not sure if that's because it fits less easily in the cracks of the source material, or if it's that the author lives so long with that version of the characters in her heads, they overwrite the source versions, or if it's that most chaptered stories tend to be of the types that are most likely to bend canon, i.e. fixits, resurrection stories, futurefic, focused romances, etc. It's something to ponder, at any rate.

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Hi...I've been wanting to reply to this for a while, but haven't had time.

You've articulated a lot of things that I also think, which is interesting.

I know certain things about writing, and how to judge it, but I also think I'm rather ignorant in other aspects. So generally I rely on the opinions of other people who have considered the matter longer than I have. This is in terms of literature in general. There are books that are considered 'great' that I despise, but it doesn't prevent me from seeing good writing/good structure or whatnot, because I can usually distinguish personal preference for analysis. And if I'm forced to read something because other, more informed, people say it's 'great', then I look for what's good about it, usually, instead of trying to prove them wrong.

Fanfiction, as you say, is a tricky beast, because people read it for *fun*, and no one wants to sit through something they hate thematically just because it has nice metaphors.

I like your point about fanfiction being difficult, as it has to live up to canon, in a way, and therefore is not a measure of the author's skill but the author's skill to manipulate another author's world. And then because canon's interpretation is subjective, those who seek canon are going to automatically reject certain characterizations that don't ring true.

In general, I agree with you - for me, it's often the writing of a fic that outweighs its other qualities. The characteristics I like outnumbering those that I don't.

Here's a problem, though, what exactly is good writing? Do you mean in terms of style, or character development, or dialogue, or structure? Because these are also subjective categories - you can like a certain style, while others find it tedious, for example.

Yes - the fic has to persuade me that its view of canon is right. I don't particularly ship anything, and I try to be open to different ideas/ships/portrayals of characters, but I have definite biases, things I steer well away from.

And emotional attachment, is, also, a tricky thing, because, again, it's fanfiction - read for love and pleasure and not so much for the edification. Not that all books are, either. Emotional attachment very subjective, plays into all sorts of kinks, and your own world view, and so on.

This whole subject tends to worry me if I think about it for too long, because, really, how can we judge anything in anything other than a subjective way? If it doesn't appeal to our emotions or psychological preferences, it appeals to our literary preferences, or has to align itself with what we believe, our perspective on how things should be, before we accept it. I suppose one mark of good writing is that it takes those preferences and warps them - teaches you that you can like other things that you didn't expect to like.

And at the same time I believe that there *must* be an objective standard for writing, I just can't figure out what it is, since so many things that are apparently good seem rubbish to me, until they are explained to me, and then I'm not sure if it's the author or the commentators that have imbued it with meaning.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

In a way, it's strange, because my idea of writing "standards" and what Good is is entirely instinctual, almost, as is most of my relationship to language. There are several criteria I just don't use, but could if I wanted to. I think one of the marks of a Good Story (writing-wise) is that the writer has a unique style, btw. Something about the way they write is... striking. Like when you see a face in the crowd and they just jump out at you. Something about the way this writer constructs sentences is... fresh, startling, makes you grin because you'd never thought like this.

I was thinking this, reading Stacey (phatgirl's) `Tower with a View', which is an old H/D that's not on the net anymore. She had a quote from an old detective novel interspersed in the text, which was "A herd of angels flew by." Harry & Draco were talking, it was a tense situation, an awkward silence-- and then, you know. Heh. It made me happy.

But good writing is basically, to me, -vivid- writing-- in terms of world-building, atmosphere, characterization, ideas & style. All of it-- even style-- is a question of ideas, of how the writer things, of how they perceive the world, what sorts of things they find important enough to notice, to write down, to expand on. I think if I sense passion, a strong belief in this particular portrayal of the character (and it's a strong writer), then that's all that's necessary-- the character comes alive.

Because even though I don't necessarily believe in Stacey's characterizations, for instance, it doesn't matter, this way they're real anyway. They behave like real people-- I can identify with them. Their minds are complex in their wiring, their responses seem natural, and there is a sense of something deeper, some symbolic over-arching meaning my mind can chew on, some subtlety, some finesse of a dawning understanding. Admittedly, I don't read for plot as rigorously as some other people do. Plot is part of the "idea" axis.

But yes, it's all subjective and lots of people would always disagree. Good thing I trust my judgement, I guess, and don't worry about the whole thing being pointless 'cause I just can't help but -feel- these things, in the end~:)