~~ i disagree to agree to disagree :/
Sep. 25th, 2003 05:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaThe concept of agreeing to disagree is strange to me, as is the idea that agreement is therefore the goal of debate or dialogue-type discourse to start with.
Thinking about this, it seems like a major fallacy. The continuous process of thinking would seem to rely on the formulation of questions, rather than that of ready rhetoric, thereafter merely used for comparison with others'. If your goal is to consider a topic, the idea of agreeing to disagree implies that your opinion is somehow intrinsically right and moreover unshakeable, and that talking about it is basically a pleasant exercise in wagging your mouth or fingers.
I'm not saying that having an opinion is somehow bad or unhealthy, but I've come across people saying "let's just agree to disagree" often enough so that now it just annoys me, whether it's said to me personally or not. It's like one of those no-no's in conversation from a list of "Nazi Conversation Tactics" I've come across on the internet once (or whatever it was called). It really kills discourse and it's just awful because there's nothing you can say to it by definition.
I suppose I'm an unusual case because I almost never disagree with anyone 100%. Everything is a question of degree, and it's within the degrees of truth that the question of refinement and improvement lies. It becomes apparent that most people who engage in so-called "intelligent conversation" don't really care about thinking (which should really be termed re-thinking, because it's not like one only thinks -once- and that's it, job done). Neither do they care about the search for the "truth", assuming that truth is worth searching for or even exists outside of the minds of some fanatics who think they've touched the mind of god. That, or they're mathematicians. Hee. Kidding.
I've noticed that a significant number of semi-random people friend me, so supposedly they read what I say, and yet the amount of replies I get is significantly lower than that of some people who're "plebes" or don't say much beyond "I had pizza today" or whose fics are questionable quality at best. (Bitter? Meeeee?) The greatest amount of discussion, whether from my own posts or those of others' seems to involve instances when people disagree strenuously, most often for personal reasons, like when I've hit upon a pet-peeve or project of theirs, so somehow I've become immensely relevant all of a sudden. If I'm just talking in general non-offensive terms, I'm not all that relevant, I guess, so discussion's at a standstill. Lasair tells me it's because what I say is either entirely convincing or I'm just confusing, neither of which inspires much commentary. And of course, it's not as if I -want- a bunch of me-too's. If anything, because hive-minds are scary, man.
I find it interesting that agreement means silence. The silence of the majority, I suppose. I also find it interesting that this complete agreement is even possible on a large scale. On the other hand, the very duality of agreement/disagreement (while apparently natural) is what concerns me, of course. I don't want to be the prophet of the righteous and the morally/philosophically correct. I also don't want to be that gibbering madman in the corner. Hopefully, there's a happy medium where I can inspire questions and discover new answers by others' questions to me. It is most often in the re-thinking of my position that I really feel that wonderful buzz of sudden insight. Taken alone, my thought is necessarily constrained by a multitude of assumptions and short-cuts and biases I take for granted. It is only when someone asks why and wonders that I can wonder with them.
I don't know what the point of this is. It's not trying to make anyone agree or disagree, by god. I don't think imploring my readers to question me would do any good, since I believe you would if you wanted to. But I feel better having verbalized it, anyway.
Thinking about this, it seems like a major fallacy. The continuous process of thinking would seem to rely on the formulation of questions, rather than that of ready rhetoric, thereafter merely used for comparison with others'. If your goal is to consider a topic, the idea of agreeing to disagree implies that your opinion is somehow intrinsically right and moreover unshakeable, and that talking about it is basically a pleasant exercise in wagging your mouth or fingers.
I'm not saying that having an opinion is somehow bad or unhealthy, but I've come across people saying "let's just agree to disagree" often enough so that now it just annoys me, whether it's said to me personally or not. It's like one of those no-no's in conversation from a list of "Nazi Conversation Tactics" I've come across on the internet once (or whatever it was called). It really kills discourse and it's just awful because there's nothing you can say to it by definition.
I suppose I'm an unusual case because I almost never disagree with anyone 100%. Everything is a question of degree, and it's within the degrees of truth that the question of refinement and improvement lies. It becomes apparent that most people who engage in so-called "intelligent conversation" don't really care about thinking (which should really be termed re-thinking, because it's not like one only thinks -once- and that's it, job done). Neither do they care about the search for the "truth", assuming that truth is worth searching for or even exists outside of the minds of some fanatics who think they've touched the mind of god. That, or they're mathematicians. Hee. Kidding.
I've noticed that a significant number of semi-random people friend me, so supposedly they read what I say, and yet the amount of replies I get is significantly lower than that of some people who're "plebes" or don't say much beyond "I had pizza today" or whose fics are questionable quality at best. (Bitter? Meeeee?) The greatest amount of discussion, whether from my own posts or those of others' seems to involve instances when people disagree strenuously, most often for personal reasons, like when I've hit upon a pet-peeve or project of theirs, so somehow I've become immensely relevant all of a sudden. If I'm just talking in general non-offensive terms, I'm not all that relevant, I guess, so discussion's at a standstill. Lasair tells me it's because what I say is either entirely convincing or I'm just confusing, neither of which inspires much commentary. And of course, it's not as if I -want- a bunch of me-too's. If anything, because hive-minds are scary, man.
I find it interesting that agreement means silence. The silence of the majority, I suppose. I also find it interesting that this complete agreement is even possible on a large scale. On the other hand, the very duality of agreement/disagreement (while apparently natural) is what concerns me, of course. I don't want to be the prophet of the righteous and the morally/philosophically correct. I also don't want to be that gibbering madman in the corner. Hopefully, there's a happy medium where I can inspire questions and discover new answers by others' questions to me. It is most often in the re-thinking of my position that I really feel that wonderful buzz of sudden insight. Taken alone, my thought is necessarily constrained by a multitude of assumptions and short-cuts and biases I take for granted. It is only when someone asks why and wonders that I can wonder with them.
I don't know what the point of this is. It's not trying to make anyone agree or disagree, by god. I don't think imploring my readers to question me would do any good, since I believe you would if you wanted to. But I feel better having verbalized it, anyway.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 05:23 pm (UTC)I'm kind of of two minds about the taste thing. I realize, of course, that you're right, people really won't budge about what they "just like" or "just dislike". And yet, in my one-year-or-so stay in the fandom, I've learned to see the attraction of many things that used to squick and disturb me, and while I don't seek them out, I don't... well... I don't dislike them "on principle" anymore, you know? I've read/written things using pairings I -hated-, that I consider well-done and worthwhile.
So I think while it's not very fruitful in general, really, there is something to be said for challenging people's preferences and beliefs. I (if I were the Ultimate Dictator Of Fearsome Power) would want everyone to -think-, basically, and never -stop- and take things as set in stone. You know, leave yourself open to being surprised. Maybe you -won't- be, 95% of the time, but then there's the other 5%. I sincerely believe that if you value something -other- than most stereotypical ideas behind certain characters, for instance, it would be easy enough to write "your kind" of H/D fic, for instance. Your particular taste in art & fiction would remain, but it would broaden at the same time. Synthesis~:)
Then again, this is because for -me-, H/D fiction isn't about the plebey stereotypes but the nature of love itself, and I would hope that this is what one might term a "universal" theme. I think, as I see them, H/D are universal. I know it's not currently well-accepted in lit-crit to refer to that, but I think that there's a common psychological basis to human beings beside their multiplicitous individuality that art & story can tap into.
As far as smarm & bdsm... okay, but no story should be defined by its kink/orientation. A story that is easily labeled like that and has only that narrow range of appeal is badfic as far as I'm concerned. A good story would appeal to a wide range of emotional needs. But that's just me & my quest for uber!fiction ;)
Still, I do agree that sometimes debate is in practical terms (rather than my idealistic babble) pointless~:)
Although I -would- want to dismantle people's resistance to scientific theory & evolution, etc., simply because the Creationists and -wrong-, man. Muwahahah, etc ^^
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 06:25 pm (UTC)We actually do not disagree that as long as things are written well, I will (and most people ought to) give anything a try; maybe a better example would have been fandoms? I have a great friend in B7 who's been trying to get me to read some of its best fic...she even mailed me zines. And I'd love to, but I just can't get to do it. Similarly, I'm sure there are plenty of fandoms that I could pimp to the high heavens and you'd just look at me (or someone you actually know and trust :-) in disbelief (like...eh...sparkly dancing boys, for example :-)
At that point it's not about the craft or originality but simply whether you have even the slightest bit of interest in the characters and what stories might be told (though again with a good author that I know and love and a show that I might actually watch, I'd sometimes even give those a try...). So at that point, we'd be at an impasse, b/c tastes vary and what I find the hottest thing on earth you just...don't... (though I have this entire theory on how we, the slashers, actually make the characters sexy but that's a completely different topic altogether :-)
A story that is easily labeled like that and has only that narrow range of appeal is badfic as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not sure I agree. I think there's a type of writing (and kaiz really made me understand that) where the kink is the purpose. But often a fic can squick someone with the kink being central to the plot or even just a not too important accessory. For example, if someone totally squicks on blood play, the fic may be wonderful, the blood play integral to the story line, yet the reader will not be able to enjoy it. But maybe we can find common ground...b/c I'd hate to agree to disagree *bg*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 09:11 pm (UTC)It's like saying...
"I like blue, but not green."
"But no, green is a worthy color! Love it! Love it! WHY AREN'T YOU LOVING IT YET?!?"
"But I like -blue-, not green."
"GAH. LET ME PAINT THE ROOM GREEN, AND THEN SEE WHAT YOU SAY."
heh.
So yeah, that sort of thing seems... er... not in the realm of thinking inquiry, I guess. It's not like you can -think- about it to start with, so you can't debate it. You don't -think- about why/how you like Harry Potter (for instance) but not Blake's 7 (though I'm sure there are reasons)-- you just -like- one but not the other. So there's really nowhere to -go- with that. It's not a thought process.
So yeah, tastes can be perhaps changed but only with certain people who were just missing out on things they may have liked but didn't give a chance to. Like, er... I really didn't like... that is to say, I -hated- the HP books with a fiery passion (I threw it across the room), when I first tried reading it. Years passed. I still hated the books. I saw the movie-- I still hated the books. It took me months and months of fanfic and a long dunk in the world before I saw them differently, before I loved Harry so much, I just adored reading books that were really -about- him and lo! He's in character! ahahah. Um.
But this isn't common, I realize~:)
Kink-prejudices.... Well. I suppose that's another unthinking gut-level response one shouldn't even discuss (but this sort of thing makes me shudder vs. but this sort of thing makes me so turned on). On more higher-level topics (ideas about personality, society, romantic options, etc should be too broad to be squickable), you can discuss more because these things are acquired and are receptive to inquiry in the first place. So I actually am not disagreeing, I guess I just leave aside certain things as not worth it to even bother with~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 09:37 pm (UTC)But seriously, in media fandom it seems fairly common that folks read the fic and *then* get to enjoy the shows. I think most of the slashdoms I read (other than XF) were slash-to-source text rather than the other way around. (So, you might be a slash fan-in-training rather than a fandom fan :-)
And I've been meaning to pimp
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 09:46 pm (UTC)People are seriously rabid about the canon around here. No one goes around protecting Joss from the infidels, do they? Well, you try and badmouth JKR in some circles. They'll have you for dinner. *laughs*
Well, it helped that I had a reputation as a meta-HP and characterization-nit-picker person, so I was accused of not knowing what I was talking about. Which I did and maybe didn't at the same time. People sure got worked up about it, though. *sigh*
And yeah, I'm already a slash fan. My first fandom was Gundam Wing, heh, and I dabble in Smallville and Highlander and SW:TPM. It's just, HP is the only one I -write- or feedback in, but then, I'm really not a fanfic writer by disposition~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 09:55 pm (UTC)I had no idea I committed capital offenses when criticizing JKR...well, off with my head, then...
This summer I spent my vacation reading the last three books and all the fanfic I allowed myself to bring along, and I really had to force myself to stay with the source text...yes, the fic had men boinking, but it often was much more engaging and (dare I say it) better written...
As for GW...never done that, but I think the number of Sentinel fans, for example, who love the show b/c of the fic is probably higher than the opposite...in my last fandom, I'll bet anything on that...I think I've encountered one person so far who admits to having owned Nsync merchandize before the fics :-)
And I'm not a fan writer, period...I write *about* it, however *g* Ad nauseam...
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 10:13 pm (UTC)Actually there are a number of people who do criticize JKR in their own little corner of fandom... it's just... er... in some circles (some of -my- circles), the more well-known fans are more... er... enamoured with the books. *laughs* And I am too, although more with Harry-the-character and Hermione-the-character and Draco-the-character rather than the "books" as a whole (much as I enjoy Hogwarts-the-idea and other such things). The writing is... well... bad. Although it gets better, and in OoTP I had no problems. I think its focus on characterization of Harry really helped, as well as it having a characterization I favor (angry!Harry) as -well- as it being the "uber-fanfic" in that it was new, I didn't know the plot already, and it was basically what we've all been waiting for. Hey, hype is your friend~:)
Strangely enough, I've found that when I -do- love the source material, I rarely get into the fanfic (such is the case with X-Files & Buffy). I mean, it feels a bit like a sullying, and I guess I see where all the canon-freaks come from, there (but Draco is Evil! JKR says so!!), except that if you really love canon so much, why do you bother with anything else?
The whole, "but I was bored without canon" excuse doesn't play for me, since one gets used to these things. There are huge waiting periods for -lots- of multi-volume books & then there are the usual months-long breaks for TV shows, etc. I only came close to liking fanfic where I saw canon first with Queer As Folk.. and that's still fanfic by people I already trust. And I'm not in the -fandom- and have no interest in -being- in that fandom, and I -love- Brian/Justin much more than say, Clex, and I read a lot more Clex fic.
Then again Queer As Folk already -has- everything you want, up to and including your favorite pairing fucking. I mean... what else is there? *laughs*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-26 11:53 am (UTC)As for getting everything from shows and not needing fanfic. I'm a bit conflicted about that. Obviously total medifans (as opposed to us slash fans) do like their source...so much so that their viewings of LOTR goes easily into the triple digits and it's still not enough...enter fanfic (and yes, I am thinking of a particular person :-).
And I think in my first fandom (BtVS) I was like that. It also took me a long time to get bored and jump fandoms. But now, I am mostly enjoying fandoms where the source text is lacking in one way or another. I've been thinking a lot about that correlation and whether fanfic simply fills the holes and thereby offers the fans a "better" version (and the big fandoms we can put in this category are legion, of course, from ST, SH, PRO to HL, TS, DS, or most anime, I'd guess).
But then there *are* BtVS and XF and WW...shows that are well written and have a fanbase above and beyond the ficcers...and still produce marvelous fic in huge quantities. Wuold we need to assume that it's the mediafan in us that enjoys that type of fic?
And what needs fixing in the universes???
no subject
Date: 2003-09-26 01:09 pm (UTC)So maybe there are different types of fannishness. Which there seems to be. I'm the "I follow religiously and think slightly about outside of watching", usually. Which is rather laid back. But the other stuff, I don't bother with at -all-. With fic-- I just read a lot of it but generally don't watch the source as much even if I love it (such is the case with Star Trek).
I think there's hole-filling fannishness/fic and obsessive-excess fannishness/fic where there's just a need for moremoremore. I get that, but only er... within a particular mode-- the show itself or the fic itself. I've never wanted more -fic- because I couldn't have more -show- except once... because the show ended badly... and there wasn't a lot of fic to be found in that fandom (since it was all complete except for the end). Woe. But that's just me.
I don't think anything needs fixing in BtVS, exactly..... er. Probably it's just that people get completely ensconced in the universe and sort of... think in those terms and they -naturally- write fic inspired by it. Like, it becomes the universe in their head. I'm at this point with HP now (where I think in HP-language), because of my long immersion in fic. Heh. I suppose this could happen with long immersion in non-fanfic media as well~:)
Although it's never happened to me, actually. I've read/seen -tons- of Star Trek and seem physically -incapable- of writing fic for it. But that's just a question of how good are you at writing fanfic in general. I'm not too good at writing "good fanfic"-- that is, something that is well-tied to a source outside me. I like writing interpretive fic-- like, -based- on some scenario or character... and that, only if I'm particularly emotionally in tune with that character -and- the world is "natural" to me, which so far has only happened in HP. Probably because English boarding schools, teenagers, magic systems, and er... passionate angst are all uber-familiar to me~:)
I'd probably write Buffy (magic, school, teenagers) except, er... it's in Sunnydale, which is a very specific context and I don't feel I know "Californian small town" very well (and naturally I don't know Hogwarts, but -dude-, the -years- I've spent imagining. Horrify even me.)
And then there's... no pairing in Buffy I feel I have something to say about. I love Spuffy but. Er... I have no "connection" to either Buffy or Spike. But some people have much lower standards than me, as the proliferation of badfic everywhere would seem to imply~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 12:59 pm (UTC)As for watching HP...be glad it's only been a few times. Due to reasons beyond my control, I have seen "potter two" more times than I can count... Though usually I distract myself by reading a steamy sex scene and keep it in the background :-)