~~ i disagree to agree to disagree :/
Sep. 25th, 2003 05:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaThe concept of agreeing to disagree is strange to me, as is the idea that agreement is therefore the goal of debate or dialogue-type discourse to start with.
Thinking about this, it seems like a major fallacy. The continuous process of thinking would seem to rely on the formulation of questions, rather than that of ready rhetoric, thereafter merely used for comparison with others'. If your goal is to consider a topic, the idea of agreeing to disagree implies that your opinion is somehow intrinsically right and moreover unshakeable, and that talking about it is basically a pleasant exercise in wagging your mouth or fingers.
I'm not saying that having an opinion is somehow bad or unhealthy, but I've come across people saying "let's just agree to disagree" often enough so that now it just annoys me, whether it's said to me personally or not. It's like one of those no-no's in conversation from a list of "Nazi Conversation Tactics" I've come across on the internet once (or whatever it was called). It really kills discourse and it's just awful because there's nothing you can say to it by definition.
I suppose I'm an unusual case because I almost never disagree with anyone 100%. Everything is a question of degree, and it's within the degrees of truth that the question of refinement and improvement lies. It becomes apparent that most people who engage in so-called "intelligent conversation" don't really care about thinking (which should really be termed re-thinking, because it's not like one only thinks -once- and that's it, job done). Neither do they care about the search for the "truth", assuming that truth is worth searching for or even exists outside of the minds of some fanatics who think they've touched the mind of god. That, or they're mathematicians. Hee. Kidding.
I've noticed that a significant number of semi-random people friend me, so supposedly they read what I say, and yet the amount of replies I get is significantly lower than that of some people who're "plebes" or don't say much beyond "I had pizza today" or whose fics are questionable quality at best. (Bitter? Meeeee?) The greatest amount of discussion, whether from my own posts or those of others' seems to involve instances when people disagree strenuously, most often for personal reasons, like when I've hit upon a pet-peeve or project of theirs, so somehow I've become immensely relevant all of a sudden. If I'm just talking in general non-offensive terms, I'm not all that relevant, I guess, so discussion's at a standstill. Lasair tells me it's because what I say is either entirely convincing or I'm just confusing, neither of which inspires much commentary. And of course, it's not as if I -want- a bunch of me-too's. If anything, because hive-minds are scary, man.
I find it interesting that agreement means silence. The silence of the majority, I suppose. I also find it interesting that this complete agreement is even possible on a large scale. On the other hand, the very duality of agreement/disagreement (while apparently natural) is what concerns me, of course. I don't want to be the prophet of the righteous and the morally/philosophically correct. I also don't want to be that gibbering madman in the corner. Hopefully, there's a happy medium where I can inspire questions and discover new answers by others' questions to me. It is most often in the re-thinking of my position that I really feel that wonderful buzz of sudden insight. Taken alone, my thought is necessarily constrained by a multitude of assumptions and short-cuts and biases I take for granted. It is only when someone asks why and wonders that I can wonder with them.
I don't know what the point of this is. It's not trying to make anyone agree or disagree, by god. I don't think imploring my readers to question me would do any good, since I believe you would if you wanted to. But I feel better having verbalized it, anyway.
Thinking about this, it seems like a major fallacy. The continuous process of thinking would seem to rely on the formulation of questions, rather than that of ready rhetoric, thereafter merely used for comparison with others'. If your goal is to consider a topic, the idea of agreeing to disagree implies that your opinion is somehow intrinsically right and moreover unshakeable, and that talking about it is basically a pleasant exercise in wagging your mouth or fingers.
I'm not saying that having an opinion is somehow bad or unhealthy, but I've come across people saying "let's just agree to disagree" often enough so that now it just annoys me, whether it's said to me personally or not. It's like one of those no-no's in conversation from a list of "Nazi Conversation Tactics" I've come across on the internet once (or whatever it was called). It really kills discourse and it's just awful because there's nothing you can say to it by definition.
I suppose I'm an unusual case because I almost never disagree with anyone 100%. Everything is a question of degree, and it's within the degrees of truth that the question of refinement and improvement lies. It becomes apparent that most people who engage in so-called "intelligent conversation" don't really care about thinking (which should really be termed re-thinking, because it's not like one only thinks -once- and that's it, job done). Neither do they care about the search for the "truth", assuming that truth is worth searching for or even exists outside of the minds of some fanatics who think they've touched the mind of god. That, or they're mathematicians. Hee. Kidding.
I've noticed that a significant number of semi-random people friend me, so supposedly they read what I say, and yet the amount of replies I get is significantly lower than that of some people who're "plebes" or don't say much beyond "I had pizza today" or whose fics are questionable quality at best. (Bitter? Meeeee?) The greatest amount of discussion, whether from my own posts or those of others' seems to involve instances when people disagree strenuously, most often for personal reasons, like when I've hit upon a pet-peeve or project of theirs, so somehow I've become immensely relevant all of a sudden. If I'm just talking in general non-offensive terms, I'm not all that relevant, I guess, so discussion's at a standstill. Lasair tells me it's because what I say is either entirely convincing or I'm just confusing, neither of which inspires much commentary. And of course, it's not as if I -want- a bunch of me-too's. If anything, because hive-minds are scary, man.
I find it interesting that agreement means silence. The silence of the majority, I suppose. I also find it interesting that this complete agreement is even possible on a large scale. On the other hand, the very duality of agreement/disagreement (while apparently natural) is what concerns me, of course. I don't want to be the prophet of the righteous and the morally/philosophically correct. I also don't want to be that gibbering madman in the corner. Hopefully, there's a happy medium where I can inspire questions and discover new answers by others' questions to me. It is most often in the re-thinking of my position that I really feel that wonderful buzz of sudden insight. Taken alone, my thought is necessarily constrained by a multitude of assumptions and short-cuts and biases I take for granted. It is only when someone asks why and wonders that I can wonder with them.
I don't know what the point of this is. It's not trying to make anyone agree or disagree, by god. I don't think imploring my readers to question me would do any good, since I believe you would if you wanted to. But I feel better having verbalized it, anyway.
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 09:55 pm (UTC)I had no idea I committed capital offenses when criticizing JKR...well, off with my head, then...
This summer I spent my vacation reading the last three books and all the fanfic I allowed myself to bring along, and I really had to force myself to stay with the source text...yes, the fic had men boinking, but it often was much more engaging and (dare I say it) better written...
As for GW...never done that, but I think the number of Sentinel fans, for example, who love the show b/c of the fic is probably higher than the opposite...in my last fandom, I'll bet anything on that...I think I've encountered one person so far who admits to having owned Nsync merchandize before the fics :-)
And I'm not a fan writer, period...I write *about* it, however *g* Ad nauseam...
no subject
Date: 2003-09-25 10:13 pm (UTC)Actually there are a number of people who do criticize JKR in their own little corner of fandom... it's just... er... in some circles (some of -my- circles), the more well-known fans are more... er... enamoured with the books. *laughs* And I am too, although more with Harry-the-character and Hermione-the-character and Draco-the-character rather than the "books" as a whole (much as I enjoy Hogwarts-the-idea and other such things). The writing is... well... bad. Although it gets better, and in OoTP I had no problems. I think its focus on characterization of Harry really helped, as well as it having a characterization I favor (angry!Harry) as -well- as it being the "uber-fanfic" in that it was new, I didn't know the plot already, and it was basically what we've all been waiting for. Hey, hype is your friend~:)
Strangely enough, I've found that when I -do- love the source material, I rarely get into the fanfic (such is the case with X-Files & Buffy). I mean, it feels a bit like a sullying, and I guess I see where all the canon-freaks come from, there (but Draco is Evil! JKR says so!!), except that if you really love canon so much, why do you bother with anything else?
The whole, "but I was bored without canon" excuse doesn't play for me, since one gets used to these things. There are huge waiting periods for -lots- of multi-volume books & then there are the usual months-long breaks for TV shows, etc. I only came close to liking fanfic where I saw canon first with Queer As Folk.. and that's still fanfic by people I already trust. And I'm not in the -fandom- and have no interest in -being- in that fandom, and I -love- Brian/Justin much more than say, Clex, and I read a lot more Clex fic.
Then again Queer As Folk already -has- everything you want, up to and including your favorite pairing fucking. I mean... what else is there? *laughs*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-26 11:53 am (UTC)As for getting everything from shows and not needing fanfic. I'm a bit conflicted about that. Obviously total medifans (as opposed to us slash fans) do like their source...so much so that their viewings of LOTR goes easily into the triple digits and it's still not enough...enter fanfic (and yes, I am thinking of a particular person :-).
And I think in my first fandom (BtVS) I was like that. It also took me a long time to get bored and jump fandoms. But now, I am mostly enjoying fandoms where the source text is lacking in one way or another. I've been thinking a lot about that correlation and whether fanfic simply fills the holes and thereby offers the fans a "better" version (and the big fandoms we can put in this category are legion, of course, from ST, SH, PRO to HL, TS, DS, or most anime, I'd guess).
But then there *are* BtVS and XF and WW...shows that are well written and have a fanbase above and beyond the ficcers...and still produce marvelous fic in huge quantities. Wuold we need to assume that it's the mediafan in us that enjoys that type of fic?
And what needs fixing in the universes???
no subject
Date: 2003-09-26 01:09 pm (UTC)So maybe there are different types of fannishness. Which there seems to be. I'm the "I follow religiously and think slightly about outside of watching", usually. Which is rather laid back. But the other stuff, I don't bother with at -all-. With fic-- I just read a lot of it but generally don't watch the source as much even if I love it (such is the case with Star Trek).
I think there's hole-filling fannishness/fic and obsessive-excess fannishness/fic where there's just a need for moremoremore. I get that, but only er... within a particular mode-- the show itself or the fic itself. I've never wanted more -fic- because I couldn't have more -show- except once... because the show ended badly... and there wasn't a lot of fic to be found in that fandom (since it was all complete except for the end). Woe. But that's just me.
I don't think anything needs fixing in BtVS, exactly..... er. Probably it's just that people get completely ensconced in the universe and sort of... think in those terms and they -naturally- write fic inspired by it. Like, it becomes the universe in their head. I'm at this point with HP now (where I think in HP-language), because of my long immersion in fic. Heh. I suppose this could happen with long immersion in non-fanfic media as well~:)
Although it's never happened to me, actually. I've read/seen -tons- of Star Trek and seem physically -incapable- of writing fic for it. But that's just a question of how good are you at writing fanfic in general. I'm not too good at writing "good fanfic"-- that is, something that is well-tied to a source outside me. I like writing interpretive fic-- like, -based- on some scenario or character... and that, only if I'm particularly emotionally in tune with that character -and- the world is "natural" to me, which so far has only happened in HP. Probably because English boarding schools, teenagers, magic systems, and er... passionate angst are all uber-familiar to me~:)
I'd probably write Buffy (magic, school, teenagers) except, er... it's in Sunnydale, which is a very specific context and I don't feel I know "Californian small town" very well (and naturally I don't know Hogwarts, but -dude-, the -years- I've spent imagining. Horrify even me.)
And then there's... no pairing in Buffy I feel I have something to say about. I love Spuffy but. Er... I have no "connection" to either Buffy or Spike. But some people have much lower standards than me, as the proliferation of badfic everywhere would seem to imply~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 12:59 pm (UTC)As for watching HP...be glad it's only been a few times. Due to reasons beyond my control, I have seen "potter two" more times than I can count... Though usually I distract myself by reading a steamy sex scene and keep it in the background :-)