everyone always talks about the huge separation between canon!draco and fanon!draco. there's all this disdain for fanon!draco, and all this disdain for canon!draco (from different camps). usually, the people who like canon!draco like his honesty about his nastiness and patheticness (that is, he just can't help being a twerp, even though it'd be in his own best interests), and the people who like fanon!draco... um. honestly, i don't know. i think they like sexgods and silver hair and passionate icyness. i mean, fanon!draco is cool as a cucumber, collected as a london debutante, intelligent as a human razor, and aware of his many dastardly virtues. he is the ultimate symbol of everything most people around the ages of 14-16 either think they want or want to be.
reading the first half of the first chapter of `kisses sweeter than wine', i realized the major problem with this (and why it offends me that anyone thinks if i like lots of fanfic with lots of draco in it, i like -that- draco in it) isn't that it's not realistic -draco-. it's not realistic for -anyone-. i don't see what's so interesting about a sexgod. i mean-- `sexgods' is there on my list of interests because i read the georgia nicolson books by louise rennison, and adored them. georgia is a hoot. and anyway, it's plenty obvious that the "sexgod" is merely a joke, and not meant to be set up as "true love".
it's the sort of thing you -think- is true love when you're 16. you think if he's "cool" and "happening", he must be the ultimate dream boy. he's beautiful, he's blond-- he'll break your heart. oh yah, i've got enough familiarity with teen-dream romances to know "the type". he's the boy you'll never get. you're too gawky, too silly, too ungainly (hello, harry sue) for a DreamBoat like that. oh yes.
it offends me somewhat, that this has become the posterboy for fanfic draco. true, this is the draco that is the stand in for all the teen girls' fervent ideals of Mr Blond-God Jock. but honestly, it's rather insulting to be assumed to want that. i mean-- that's tantamount to calling all fanon a plebe-fest. which it might be, to a large degree, but it's not -totally-.
in `kisses sweeter than wine', this is definitely "the draco". harry wants him because he's so cool. who in the hell buys this? my god.
it occurred to me to wonder, what -i- thought of (in the beginning, and now too, i guess) as "the draco", reading fanfic. why do i say i love him?
truth be told, i love harry more-- he's more dorky, and i sort of love that. not to say that draco isn't dorky (in my head), but harry's more complex, too, obviously.
initially, i thought of draco as rather the portrait of the angry, misguided brat, ridden with jealousy and barely-hidden insecurity and resentment towards those who have the attention he wants. to me, fanon!draco had all this obsession going on, and the only way he could express the tension and bubbling negativity was by acting out.
why exactly did i love that, i don't know. i can understand obsession, meanness borne of jealousy and resentment, the way you feel yourself crumpling up inside if you don't prove yourself dominant, superior. and yet he fails, he always fails.
this is why it doesn't make sense to me, this idea that fanon!draco has to be cool and collected and godlike-- because it's equally fanon to say he's possessed, obsessed, lost in rage and jealousy. he needs to build his identity in terms of pushing against harry and cleaving to his father, but unable to do either successfully. he -can't- be the smooth sexgod-- that would remove the very attraction, the passion in this pairing. i fell in love with draco because he's bitter and pathetic and he postures and bullshits everyone (especially himself), but really he's just lonely and desperate. there's all this verbal snark and all this ambition, and it's all useless and impotent.
i've enjoyed lots of different portrayals of draco, but that was what made me ship harry/draco. he needs harry, just, someone to break through all this delusional resentment and just -care- about him, and harry-- i thought maybe harry could use being shaken up, challenged and addressed with such intense, raw emotion. he seems a lot more stoppered up-- a lot less willing to act out directly. i mean, harry has all these issues, but he's so easy-going, seemingly, so suspicious about letting anyone in on his angst. this is, again, fanon!harry as i started off imagining him.
fanon!harry is like a firecracker just waiting to be set off. and draco-- he's always exploding, but with no real direction, his purpose always so limited in scope, and always muddled up. he always misses, because he never really has a very good understanding of what exactly he wants except to thwart harry at doing/getting whatever -harry- wants.
this is the impression i got, reading my formative fanfics. it seems to me that sex-god!draco and easily-swept-away!harry misses this whole essential dynamic of supressed desire and rage and need. they circle each other-- circle and circle and fire warning shots-- they each pretend it's nothing, but it's like, against their will, it somehow becomes everything, simply because they -spark-, and both of them have been primed for explosion.
is this what people mock, when they mock fanon?
and i think this is why i'm particularly otp about them. some pairings-- while i don't seek out variations, with other characters-- i don't mind. but with harry & draco, it seems to me that i'd agree with
sistermagpie-- the very point of them, to me, is to be all-consuming-- it's all about the burning. in order for them to work at all, they'd have to burn a path through history-- they'd have to burn through a lot of prejudices and preconceptions and initial instincts. and no, i don't think either of them should know they're "gay", for this to be fully effective-- because what i want (personally), is for all possible barriers (gender, loyalties, friendships, affiliations) to be blasted aside, simply unable to hold.
in my head, if harry wanted something, if he believed in something-- nothing would be able to restrain him, to stand in his way. and it'd be such a huge conflict-- if he ever realized he wanted draco malfoy. while draco would just -do- whatever he wants -because- he wants, harry would have to measure it against his principles-- and as long as he'll be doing that with draco, he'll be having an identity crisis. draco wouldn't really -change- for harry, because i don't think that's all that usual for people. not within a -year- or two. not in the original rush of emotion that -creates- their relationship.
on the one hand, i'm truly interested in redeeming draco-- that is, making him re-evaluate his choices-- making him aware he's -making- choices. but i'm also interested in making harry re-evaluate things too-- not so much to make him "dark", as to make him -grey-. i think somewhere on the borderline, in the fuzzy area between right and wrong, love and hate, that is where they could meet.
so obviously, saying that fanon!draco=leather-pants-wearing!draco rather offends me.
he doesn't have to be a shallow, white-washed excuse for a slytherin. you could -add- darkness to him, -add- rage, add conflict. he doesn't want to want potter. he -hates- potter with a -passion-. and yet-- he could find himself unable to help his own desires escaping with this, as with everything else.
i don't know if this is possible or realistic-- i only know i love the possibilities. no other pairing with either harry or draco in it could burn this brightly-- igniting so many things about them both, changing the very world they live in simply because it's such an impossibility, such a nexus point. i never want them to settle down, to become complacent or gentle with each other-- not entirely. i want their gentleness to be ripped out of them, to be something primal and achingly sincere.
in fanon, they challenge each other to be the most, the -best- either one -can- be, and the worst. it's this sense that being together with potter will either save them both or destroy draco, at the very least, that attracted me. it's this sense, not that "i want you", but that "i cannot want anyone else (like i want you)".
they can (in fanon) -rip- at each other's defenses, make each other bleed, strip each other of all pretense. and naked, finally, they can -love- each other. and that's what i love.
reading the first half of the first chapter of `kisses sweeter than wine', i realized the major problem with this (and why it offends me that anyone thinks if i like lots of fanfic with lots of draco in it, i like -that- draco in it) isn't that it's not realistic -draco-. it's not realistic for -anyone-. i don't see what's so interesting about a sexgod. i mean-- `sexgods' is there on my list of interests because i read the georgia nicolson books by louise rennison, and adored them. georgia is a hoot. and anyway, it's plenty obvious that the "sexgod" is merely a joke, and not meant to be set up as "true love".
it's the sort of thing you -think- is true love when you're 16. you think if he's "cool" and "happening", he must be the ultimate dream boy. he's beautiful, he's blond-- he'll break your heart. oh yah, i've got enough familiarity with teen-dream romances to know "the type". he's the boy you'll never get. you're too gawky, too silly, too ungainly (hello, harry sue) for a DreamBoat like that. oh yes.
it offends me somewhat, that this has become the posterboy for fanfic draco. true, this is the draco that is the stand in for all the teen girls' fervent ideals of Mr Blond-God Jock. but honestly, it's rather insulting to be assumed to want that. i mean-- that's tantamount to calling all fanon a plebe-fest. which it might be, to a large degree, but it's not -totally-.
in `kisses sweeter than wine', this is definitely "the draco". harry wants him because he's so cool. who in the hell buys this? my god.
it occurred to me to wonder, what -i- thought of (in the beginning, and now too, i guess) as "the draco", reading fanfic. why do i say i love him?
truth be told, i love harry more-- he's more dorky, and i sort of love that. not to say that draco isn't dorky (in my head), but harry's more complex, too, obviously.
initially, i thought of draco as rather the portrait of the angry, misguided brat, ridden with jealousy and barely-hidden insecurity and resentment towards those who have the attention he wants. to me, fanon!draco had all this obsession going on, and the only way he could express the tension and bubbling negativity was by acting out.
why exactly did i love that, i don't know. i can understand obsession, meanness borne of jealousy and resentment, the way you feel yourself crumpling up inside if you don't prove yourself dominant, superior. and yet he fails, he always fails.
this is why it doesn't make sense to me, this idea that fanon!draco has to be cool and collected and godlike-- because it's equally fanon to say he's possessed, obsessed, lost in rage and jealousy. he needs to build his identity in terms of pushing against harry and cleaving to his father, but unable to do either successfully. he -can't- be the smooth sexgod-- that would remove the very attraction, the passion in this pairing. i fell in love with draco because he's bitter and pathetic and he postures and bullshits everyone (especially himself), but really he's just lonely and desperate. there's all this verbal snark and all this ambition, and it's all useless and impotent.
i've enjoyed lots of different portrayals of draco, but that was what made me ship harry/draco. he needs harry, just, someone to break through all this delusional resentment and just -care- about him, and harry-- i thought maybe harry could use being shaken up, challenged and addressed with such intense, raw emotion. he seems a lot more stoppered up-- a lot less willing to act out directly. i mean, harry has all these issues, but he's so easy-going, seemingly, so suspicious about letting anyone in on his angst. this is, again, fanon!harry as i started off imagining him.
fanon!harry is like a firecracker just waiting to be set off. and draco-- he's always exploding, but with no real direction, his purpose always so limited in scope, and always muddled up. he always misses, because he never really has a very good understanding of what exactly he wants except to thwart harry at doing/getting whatever -harry- wants.
this is the impression i got, reading my formative fanfics. it seems to me that sex-god!draco and easily-swept-away!harry misses this whole essential dynamic of supressed desire and rage and need. they circle each other-- circle and circle and fire warning shots-- they each pretend it's nothing, but it's like, against their will, it somehow becomes everything, simply because they -spark-, and both of them have been primed for explosion.
is this what people mock, when they mock fanon?
and i think this is why i'm particularly otp about them. some pairings-- while i don't seek out variations, with other characters-- i don't mind. but with harry & draco, it seems to me that i'd agree with
in my head, if harry wanted something, if he believed in something-- nothing would be able to restrain him, to stand in his way. and it'd be such a huge conflict-- if he ever realized he wanted draco malfoy. while draco would just -do- whatever he wants -because- he wants, harry would have to measure it against his principles-- and as long as he'll be doing that with draco, he'll be having an identity crisis. draco wouldn't really -change- for harry, because i don't think that's all that usual for people. not within a -year- or two. not in the original rush of emotion that -creates- their relationship.
on the one hand, i'm truly interested in redeeming draco-- that is, making him re-evaluate his choices-- making him aware he's -making- choices. but i'm also interested in making harry re-evaluate things too-- not so much to make him "dark", as to make him -grey-. i think somewhere on the borderline, in the fuzzy area between right and wrong, love and hate, that is where they could meet.
so obviously, saying that fanon!draco=leather-pants-wearing!draco rather offends me.
he doesn't have to be a shallow, white-washed excuse for a slytherin. you could -add- darkness to him, -add- rage, add conflict. he doesn't want to want potter. he -hates- potter with a -passion-. and yet-- he could find himself unable to help his own desires escaping with this, as with everything else.
i don't know if this is possible or realistic-- i only know i love the possibilities. no other pairing with either harry or draco in it could burn this brightly-- igniting so many things about them both, changing the very world they live in simply because it's such an impossibility, such a nexus point. i never want them to settle down, to become complacent or gentle with each other-- not entirely. i want their gentleness to be ripped out of them, to be something primal and achingly sincere.
in fanon, they challenge each other to be the most, the -best- either one -can- be, and the worst. it's this sense that being together with potter will either save them both or destroy draco, at the very least, that attracted me. it's this sense, not that "i want you", but that "i cannot want anyone else (like i want you)".
they can (in fanon) -rip- at each other's defenses, make each other bleed, strip each other of all pretense. and naked, finally, they can -love- each other. and that's what i love.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 11:25 am (UTC)truth be told, i love harry more
but I am sorry that, on some level, we will just never understand each other. :) <3
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 12:42 pm (UTC)*repentant*
i love YOUR draco more, how's that *grins*
as long as he doesn't do anything too untoward with terry boot, in which case my love may become rather sadistic. *giggles*
<3
*teases mercilessly*
Date: 2003-04-09 11:32 am (UTC)Canon!Draco is actually obsessed with Harry as well. Totally.
Anyway, I really agree with this line:
no other pairing with either harry or snape in it could burn this brightly-- igniting so many things about them both
and I'm happy to see you so open-minded about this.
Re: *teases mercilessly*
Date: 2003-04-09 12:45 pm (UTC)see, this is why i wasn't defending one over the other, and only focusing on defending fanon!draco on his own merits, whether or not my description had a relationship with canon or -not- :D
and, hee~!
having snape in there would make the whole thing be about harry/snape, which i didn't know you shipped, actually ;)
Re: *teases mercilessly*
Date: 2003-04-09 12:47 pm (UTC)actually, i'll ship harry-draco-lucius-snape in any combination except lucius/snape, because i don't like either one of them as a bottom.
Re: *teases mercilessly*
Date: 2003-04-09 12:53 pm (UTC)yah -.-
i kind of like harry/snape (on those days that picturing snape naked doesn't squick me-- can't help it-- it's the visual image i have of sallow skin, bad breath and no muscle-- okay, stopping now, creeping myself out). but i phrased it like i did (just in case it was confusing), to mean that out of all the different other combinations you could have with harry or with draco, harry/draco -together-, etcetc.
heh.
i like lucius with james and narcissa. not so much with narcissa, really (i mean... i have no clue about narcissa except she's vain and pretty and stuck-up-- and who wants to see -that- naked?-- plus it's het)-- but um, recently i wrote one, and me and ishuca are beta-editing it right now.
so i'm a little soft on narcissa, these days~:)
er. and that, was a complete digression ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 11:37 am (UTC)I was working for her U.S. publisher when they published the first two books, and I have them in bound galley format. LOVE them. :D
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 11:58 am (UTC)... what urks me is that you haven't read the books. Where the hell did you get the impression of canon!Draco and make it so ridiculously dead on to how I think he truly is in the books? Did you talk to people? Form this opinion from their opinions?
Anyway, I just... agree with this post. A LOT OF THIS POST. I love your thoughts. Honestly, I truly do. You captured my impression of canon!Draco completely - and I don't know how exactly you did it if you haven't read the books. ( besides seeing the movies I mean - although wait... nevermind....? )
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 12:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 12:47 pm (UTC)and even if he -is- canon-ish in my overview of fanon!draco, that's merely a bonus ;)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 01:17 pm (UTC)First of all, I don't think anyone is saying that you can't give Draco more depth in fanon. What in the world would be the point of writing fanfiction if it wasn't partially to explore outside the limited Harry-oriented-POV of HP books? Secondly, I don't think anyone is also saying that there aren't any pieces of fanfiction that write believable extrapolations of Draco.
Fanon Draco is a quick and dirty term that isn't meant to be all encompassing. No, maybe this is not fair, but like I said, I don't think people reading this are expected to believe there is only one type of fanon Draco. Rather they are talking about the popularized trends to create characterizations not routed in books that often crop up in fanfiction. Usually this term is meant to contrast "canon" so it usually picks up on themes that writers use which are unlike canon. Not always, but often, and that's what it picks up this association with what you believe are somewhat embarrassing extremes not depictive of all fanfiction. Fanfiction is diverse. people know that. If people who hated "fanon draco" thought all fanfiction only had fanon draco why would they read it? They wouldn't.
And likely I'm not even arguing probably because I'm sorry. I didn't grasp the direction of this particular rant.
As for these lines:
to me, fanon!draco had all this obsession going on, and the only way he could express the tension and bubbling negativity was by acting out.
I find those VERY canon aspects. As S said, Draco's obsession is pretty blatant in the books. His resentment? Also pretty canon, IMO. If Fanon has direct connections to canon, then fanon Draco OUGHT to have these traits. Fanon Draco, to me, represents where fandom begins to diverge from canon and create its own aspects of Draco that are rather unfounded - not impossible and not necessarily impossible. But one popular "fanon sirius" would likely be a rather horny slut Sirius... Which isn't evident in the books but popular in fandom to write. Is that to say all fanon Sirius is such? Hardly. But do a good portion of people write him this way. Probably. And is it possible that canon Sirius is a slut? Proper extrapolation could just get you there.
But the problem comes in when people stop paying attention to what exists in canon, rather they rely soley on what is abundent in fanon to produce their own depictions of Draco, and sometimes what appeals to them has no foundation in canon. You get these characterizations that are further and further from the original.
I remember an analogy used for DNA cloning which talks about the degradation of photocopies. Where you begin taking copies of copies and each copy is less accurate then the first. Muller's Hatchet is the theory, I think. But basically, I think this is what happens in fandom when people stop referencing the books, and I think THAT is what people are referencing when they are talking about "fanon draco." But no not all "fanon draco" is inaccurate, and before I repeat myself. This is all very circular. Just reread the above, that no, this term is used as a limited references, talking about extremes and not entire spectrums.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 01:30 pm (UTC)i should've been more clear-- ie, i was arguing against people who told me if you like fanon!draco, you like -this-, ie, leather-pants-wearing!draco.
but, if i said that, i would be being confrontatory and aggressive, you know what i mean? i would be asking for a fight, and i hate that. so i was merely stating what my impression of draco was, after merely reading fanfic, in my formative couple of months.
i was merely talking of what i thought of when i thought of draco. if this -does- intersect with canon, well, that makes my argument for me (i.e., i can understand canon merely from fanon), and if it doesn't, then fine. since i didn't think (in fact) that this is what people think of when they attack fanon!draco, i was arguing that the usage of the term (as it is sometimes used), to disparage all draco in fanfic as uncanonical and that you can't understand the evilness or whatever of canon!draco, merely from fanfic-- is faulty.
does that make sense?
so yes, it was merely about terminology. on the other hand, it was also just a statement of what fanfic taught me about draco-- and the conclusion is up to the reader, in that case~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 02:04 pm (UTC)I think part of the problem you have referenced in your reply is that certain elements that correlate to canon draco do appeal to you (from what you've read them in fanfiction) BUT on the other hand, there are a lot of people who might be more taken in by the idea of cool-as-ice draco. You are lucky because your personal preference for one depiction of draco over the other does make you sound more "canon" oriented as a speaker and a writer, but think how easily you could have sounded unfounded and begun to diverge down this path of sexy-cool-leather-pants draco if you had liked the latter.
basically, you have made a preference from two "fanon dracos" (I hope that is a fair assessment, because without having read canon, you simply cannot say you like canon draco. the only true canon draco is the one found in the books.) and you have a leaning towards one that is less dramatically different from canon.
regarding: if this -does- intersect with canon, well, that makes my argument for me
Well that doesn't mean you can understand canon. It means you have a preference for a fanon Draco that happens to correlate with canon. That's a coincidence. Like I said, certain things appeal to people. Something that happened to appeal to you was in some ways canonical. (I personally feel some of the fics you termed "canon" aren't, but that's just me. So personally, I could argue that there are some cases where you prefer a "non canon" draco. So to say your preferences for certain types of exploartions of him means you understand canon from fandom, I don't agree with that statement. I'm sorry. To me, it just sounds like this is what appealed to you.)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 02:30 pm (UTC)hee. you are so much more rigorously logical than me~:) i er, i mean i appreciate that ^^ keeps me on the straight and narrow, so to speak.
but yes, you're right, it's largely a coincidence. and, as far as liking some not-really-canonical draco's, i guess that intersects with lasair's question of why/how do i like all those h/d fics that diverge strongly from the above set-up.
which admits the obvious caveat that i still like any fic that is very well-written (as i see it), even if it has sex-god!draco or cool-as-ice!draco or what have you. there are some very blatant examples of this among my all-time-favorite h/d fics. as well as blatant examples of obsessive-loser!draco, as well.
i think i wasn't usually too careful in applying (what could be hypothetically called) my understanding of who canon!draco is, in terms of talking about fanfic. because the extremes of characterization are so wide-ranging, i was easily tempted to say-- well, he's a prat, he's (still) mean, he's still petty and prejudiced and he's not flamingly gay-- eh, close enough -.-
but yes~:)
i suppose it's luck. though i think it's also a desire for realism and complexity in characterization-- which (i tried to note) sex-god!draco rather lacks. that is an immature and completely unrealistic character, that would be rather offensive to my intelligence to love. you know? so it's not just luck, but also a certain matter of discrimination in quality. though you are correct in saying that the mere -fact- that this is what i'm attracted to has nothing to do with canonicity. then again, there is no foundation for having ever thought of me as a canon whore (i don't think), and i never claimed to that status.
it is merely (amusingly enough), a double coincidence-- in that people who -are- rather canon-centered have often enough agreed with -me-, and thus created the illusion that i had the same source as them. you know? just like me saying i like draco in fanfic implies a source (ie, the source being cool!draco)~:)
funny how that works ^^
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 02:49 pm (UTC)(A) Ccertain things like being "sexy" can be worked into canon-like Dracos. Not all "fanon draco" (in the stereotypical sense) traits are mutally exclusive from canon ones, although some are. You can still like a story with some "fanon" elements without straying completely off canon.
(B) I wasn't trying to say you were portraying yourself as a canon whore. Only that I disagreed with your prior statement, saying that you can gain a knowledge of canon through fanfiction alone. I think what tends to shape you more into realizing one is closer to canon than the other is likely comments from other people. If no one ever said Cool-as-ice Draco wasn't canon, how would you know he wasn't from reading fanfiction? you wouldn't.
(C) Yes, I totally agree that "Fanon Draco" (stereotyped version) is more idealized, but I don't think someone is necessarily "stupid" because they like him. But to me it is a more fantasy (as in romantic fantasy) version. However, it is STILL a preference. I understand you feel Draco, who is less cool and perhaps more obsessive is more appealing to you because he seems more complex (and I would agree with you.) I am not trying to insult your intelligence by saying it's "coincidence" you like him. Rather that, had you been someone with different preferences, more interested in reading someone who might take on a more traditionally romance novel role, that the other might appeal you. And that has nothing to do with intelligence, but what you are interested in looking for as a reader. Romance novels can be nice in a brain candy, fantasy sort of way. And in that case you might want that "perfect" man protagonist or antagonist. Also, I could totally see someone argue that the mean, bratty Draco can also easily be depicted in many cases as easily 2-d and flat. But I realize you are talking specifically that complexity appeals to you, therefore complex obsessive jealous Draco appeals to you.
Wait, let me rephrase that. What i mean to say, is that I do not mean your liking what you perceive as a complex Draco is "luck" rather that it is luck that this complex Draco coincides more closely canon. In the situation where "canon Draco" was Cool-As-Ice Draco, you would not have a leaning towards canon-like Draco. And that was my talk of "lucky" not that you are lucky in the other respect.
coincidence...
Date: 2003-04-09 09:57 pm (UTC)True there is some degradation at times in any indirect measurement, but there can be that within a direct measurement too..
And besides degradation there can be enhancers within discussion of literature. If you have a basic idea what is going on and you talk with, debate, and more importantly listen to intelligent debates of a piece of literature especially if people are trying to take it on in both a subjective as well as an objective manner, and you have a good nose for (selector
) against what _seems_ false (especially since one can generally assume that experts in a subject are unlikely to lie or see things as mistakenly near as much as new people..
You could in a way have a clearer view of the more important subtleties because there has already been a selective process goign on.
I guess in short.. I'm just saying that once you are in a selected subject long enough and if you have a good feel for that subject, you are more likely to gravitate toward the Truth..
Even if you've neve actually seen it the way you are supposed to (like say Harry Potter was originally written in Cherokee and then translated, I think that there would be not many people wh had heard the story as was meant to be written directly(which might explain (besides many other reasons) why there are less great foriegn language books translated into English (comparitively and especially in modern literature).
But umm done. Hope this made sense.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 01:19 pm (UTC)*slightly edited*
Date: 2003-04-09 01:36 pm (UTC)well, those were the impressions i got from my formative fics-- and that was the characterizations i had in mind writing my embarrassing, ill-begotten initial "epic".
heh.
since in order to only read a certain sort of h/d, i'd have had to refuse a lot of good writing-- and in fact, read rather little in general-- i often just go with whether a particular story "sells" me~:)
but it was rather frustrating to be assumed to like a certain characterization merely because of being bred on fanon.
er. small edit, there ><;; *laughs*
i mean, i can -like- fics with leather-pants-wearing!draco and sexgod!draco, if they're well-written or humorfics or what have you.
this is just what made me -ship- them, initially. and like-- if it's "how it really is" or if it -isn't-, it doesn't matter, as long as it's not "sexgod!draco" that made me ship h/d. which someone suggested.
*stabs said mindset repeatedly*
hee~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 01:40 pm (UTC)By which, of course, I mean I agree!:-)
When people use the term "fanon Draco" I do usually think they are referring to a Draco often found in fanon where he's been "fixed." Not made fluffy (although that happens) or revised to have been good all along (although that happens too) but made in control in ways he just isn't. That's one of the main things about Draco in canon, imo--we're told how he's always sneering and always tries to sound bored. But we're also always told about those little spots of colors on his cheeks and his desperate attempts to get attention and get to Harry. Aja described this beautiful in her Draco in LUW where she said something like (paraphrasing) that the more he tried to be an ice cold replica of his father the more passion and fire and yearning he discovered in himself. The super cool Draco almost takes only the superficial aspects of Draco and creates a personality around them, leaving all the stuff underneath behind. (Actually, I was having a discussion about this kind of thing on my lj recently, about how people often want their characters as something beyond them rather than relate to through their shortcomings...I'm not sure if it quite relates but this is it. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sistermagpie/3373.html#cutid1)
So leaving canon Draco aside completely, I think this is what makes a good fanon Draco as well. There are plenty of well-written Dracos who are sort of blond Oscar Wilde's and who seduce anyone with minimum effort but I've just never really liked that type of character. And I don't in my heart think that Harry would fall for that person. And in a way he can't fall for Harry either, because he's too controlled and frankly doesn't need anybody else. I like a Draco who's as desperate for love as Harry is, myself.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 02:08 pm (UTC)but, i mean, while -some- people only mean a certain type of fanfic representation, enough people make this sweeping statement about how fanon!draco has nothing to do with reality or with his bitchy evilness in canon, or whatever. and this was merely testimony that i can just read fanfic and not get that impression.
but hmm, your idea of a surface interpretation made sense. although i was talking about the process of reading more than the process of writing (and creating your own draco). sigh. i don't know what i accomplished, writing this, but maybe i can point people to it when they say, "see! you like something that can't possibly be derived from canon when you say you like fanon!draco". heh.
but yah, once again you totally get what i meant :D
off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 03:24 pm (UTC)Quoting P, I'M GOING TO COME IN MY PANTS.
office.
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 03:37 pm (UTC)gah, you are set to distract me from my dutiful canon-reading and dv12 and...all sorts of LESS-THAN-SEXY things!!
i am not made of stone!!
*laughs*
and anyway, i'm being selfish about hl. ahahahah, no one knows me so no one hears me silently walking back out the door without saying a word. hee. what they don't know won't hurt them >:D
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 03:44 pm (UTC)(also, dude. This slogan was a work of genius, I feel.)
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 03:53 pm (UTC)eh. they have -you-, don't they -.-
i'm over-stressed.
but!
if i -do- become as rabidly d/m as you, i guess i couldn't help myself (just like with hp), so it will become an inevitability. also, the thing is-- the reason i give so much fb in hp is because most of it is posted on ff.net and schnoogle and lj, which all have automatic-form feedback, which somehow seems `easier' than e-mail, which is you know, more -personal- and... i dunno. -involved-.
weird, because it's not like it's more -clicks-, exactly, just. i dunno. something.
i only ever (ever!) sent email fb -once-.
once.
twice? was it twice? yah, twice.
but the first was because i was upset with an aspect of the fic (ie, in dmhs, i was deeply disappointed with The Kiss-- so i wrote my own kiss scene, and i sent it to saber-- who said it was interesting. -.- gar)
so like, the only -real- email fb i've ever sent was for `brief interval', which like, KNOCKED ME -DEAD-. knocked me -dead-, that fic did. i don't even -know- what it -was-, but it -killed- me. it was just like, WHOAH. and it's not even that it has such in-depth characterization or the sexiest porn in h/d-- just-- the emotional punch of it (for me), especially at the end, was simply awesome.
i would've (possibly) sent her snail-mail. although, maybe not ><;;
hee~:)
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 04:02 pm (UTC)One nice thing about e-mail feedback is that the authors tend to respond. And sometimes they're really happy to hear from you. You know, I actually probably have you to thank for my correspondence with Killa. Isn't that funny?
Hehe, it's possible to become as rabidly D/M as me without being less into H/D. I just haven't been feeling the H/D love for a long time. I mean, they're still my favourite pairing in HP by a long shot, but the existence of H/D doesn't make me happy, doesn't sit in my mind like a bad Emily Dickinson metaphor and cheer me up with its sublime rightness.
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 04:10 pm (UTC)maybe it's just been awhile, but i can't -remember- bad emily dickinson metaphors. heh.
but yah. that's such a good description of what the otp-rage is like. hee. that's why i'm all shocked and disturbed when someone with an otp ships a contradicting ship (ie, seriously ships the same character with a different character). just that sense i get, with `real' otp's, that it's just -perfect- and it makes one happy just thinking about it, and makes one -glow-, and so on.
i mean, i realize that's not how otp's function for everyone, but yeah.
i mean, with d/m... it makes me grin because it -is- right, but i don't (as yet) think of it outside the fic. i know what penelope means about h/d seeming cartoonish. sometimes it does, even to me. a lot more immature dreck gets written for it, and it's more work to hold on to that shining ideal, 'cause there isn't as much reinforcement.
also, i definitely see where you are, it's just that i haven't read as much d/m fic, so i'm not as close to the "edge" of what i can read, at this point ^^
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 04:24 pm (UTC)Oh, by 'bad Emily Dickinson metaphors' I meant "Hope is the thing with feathers - /That perches in the soul - / And sings the tune without the words - / And never stops - at all -"
yeah, because I was erm, dangerously close to saying that D/M made my heart sing. *glares around belligerently* I love them, ALL RIGHT?
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 04:30 pm (UTC)siiiiiigh.
i mean, obviously it's (*ahem*) about......another pairing, but. yes :D
*not ashamed*!!
*laughs*
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 04:34 pm (UTC)There doesn't have to be just OTP. If I felt this way about H/D, I think I'd still feel the same about D/M. So don't feel like you're betraying the petulant magic boys by falling in love with D/M. *g* Or are you that monagamous that you can't love in two fandoms?
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 04:40 pm (UTC)nah, obviously i'm easily seduced by the pretty ^^
i mean, i am multi-fandom by nature (ie, easily distracted, have many interests, and an otp in every fandom-- just my nature)-- but like... there's a difference between an -otp- and what you described, which may be described as super!otp, or something -.-
i think that's the source of the confusion for me that people who say they're otp about h/d still have this strong love-on for contradicting pairings.
because like-- if it's -that- sort of relationship, how can you really want anything else, in that universe? just because it's -perfect- :D
while you can want something -different- and entirely -other- from the perfection and complete fittedness, it's like, weird to want to -mess- with it, in your head. or something.
but yes. with methos-- immediate lurve.
just -seeing- him (since i already knew duncan, and have watched some highlander), it was just like, *click!*
:D
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 04:54 pm (UTC)Yeah, there is a distinct difference between the ways of shipping. I'd say that lots of people just ship H/D rather than it being their OTP. I'm OTP by default with H/D - I can't think of anybody else in the universe that would be a suitable match for either of them, therefore I ship nothing else with either of them. But who knows - I might be shipping Harry/new character introduced in book 5 in a few months, you never know.
There's also a further difference between reading about a pairing and wanting the couple to always have a happy long-lasting love. I read Snape/Draco, but I wouldn't describe myself as *shipping* them in any shape or form. I just enjoy reading it in its screwed-up-ness.
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 05:06 pm (UTC)sometimes i think every quibble i tend to have, winds its way back to definitions, somehow. somehow, it tends to diverge-- what i mean, and what the other people mean. they say "otp" and mean something else entirely from what i mean, and maybe we'd never even understand each other's feelings if we didn't assume we had the same feelings to start with.
maybe that's why it makes me happy when there's a closer congruence-- there's a sense of rightness-- being right because you're not alone, thus it's like, you're validated somewhat. i don't really take it -personally- if someone completely disagrees with me, but it's always a little `click' in my head, a lever i have to push so that it doesn't bother me and i don't jump to saying, "oh. that's like, something wrong with -me-, for seeing things a different way".
man, i just ramble like nobody's business -.-
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 05:17 pm (UTC)"Ah Methos, are we going to wrestle or are you going to give me a massage?"
Methos choked, which is what happens when you accidentally swallow your tongue trying to hold back laughter. (http://www.geocities.com/hafital2/hlander/dinglestarry.htm)
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-09 05:56 pm (UTC)*dutifully notes down and adds to [ever-growing!] list*
yep. i can see where my free time is going, oh yah -.-
Re: off-topic as usual...
Date: 2003-04-11 05:41 pm (UTC)*prances*
you know me well :D
*beams*
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 03:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 08:36 pm (UTC)I guess I shouldn't hammer home the point Dee and Salazaar have already touched on, of course. I still think, to quote Josh, that if you've never read the New Testament, you shouldn't go off and make a lot of claims about your interpretation of Jesus just because you've seen the Last Temptation of Christ. However I think I've already Made That Point With A Mallet, so...
Just a few notes.
fanon!draco=leather-pants-wearing!draco rather offends me.
Aside from filling me with great rage and hatred (not your fault -- just that leather-pants-wearing Draco is usually blamed on me, with everyone missing the point that it was a joke -- I suppose that's what one gets for starting trends of questionable worth, but one doesn't expect it from one's friends) -- leather!pants Draco is also het Draco, or at least that what's the reference usually indicates. And I get the feeling that along with canon, het is another thing you don't really read -- correct me if I'm wrong?
fervent ideals of Mr Blond-God Jock
You really think he's a jock? I usually think of fanon!Draco as stick-thin and fragile. He's rarely characterized as muscular. You mean because he's good at Quidditch?
I think I'll just agree with what others have said -- fanon Draco can be a good thing when done well, and a bad thing when done badly. I recognize that this is a tautology, but honestly I kind of think this whole post is a tautology. What you seem to be saying is "I dislike some takes on H/D. Here is my take on H/D, which I do like." Which is totally fine, of course, but does beg the question that Las asked -- if you don't like fanon!Draco, or that particular take on him, I'd question why you read some of the fics you do.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 09:03 pm (UTC)... wasn't trying to make claims about -draco- the entity (was careful!), just summing up my long-ago impressions of draco from fanfic. not to say so much about draco overall, as much as, the "really sexy-cool!draco" in fanon isn't necessarily definitive, if in fact they mean to refer to "fanon" rather than "plebe fanon". or something.
so i wasn't really referring to anything but my own idea of fanon!draco as formed early on. and quite possibly, my point was lost among all the description, but i meant to say something to the effect of-- the term "fanon!draco" seems to be selective and yet condemning of things it doesn't necessarily have to mean. or something. so this has no necessary relationship to "reality", and i wasn't making claims and merely recounting my impressions from "fanon". so i figured it was okay-- that is, i was merely protesting the idea that fanon has to mean -that- (erm. the whole sex-god bit) ><
i mean, i could read a collection of texts, and say, "this is what impression i got from them", and it wouldn't be claiming anything else. and you could -always- get impressions, and they could be wrong or not, largely by coincidence.
the leather-pants bit was rather symbolic of the whole sex-appeal coolness aspect, i didn't mean to single it out. and i'm not sure as to the many different draco's (het and slash, probably), but no, i don't read draco het (even though recently i had read a couple d/hr fics, but i don't think they count). though i do read some scattered r/hr here and there.
but no, i don't think i was saying, "i dislike some takes on h/d" (if anything, i can probably think of a fic i've liked with a large, and contradictory range of characterizations). it was more, using some of them to define fanon but not others. and therefore thinking i -like- those specific ones, if i say i like draco (in fanfic). (sort of like i explained to
i mean-- just because i have a certain impression of them in my head, doesn't mean i will only seek out fic with that characterization, otherwise i'd just read a very limited range of fic. so basically, i read anything that seems well-written. while i have an ideal, i don't really expect it to be met all the time, or even most of the time. each individual fic tends to succeed or fail on its own merits. i mean, i can easily imagine a fic that -did- have the type of relationship and characterization i described, and it'd fail miserably.
and er-- i figured i might be going over-the-top with the jock bit. but it was fitting in with my whole bit about coolness and i was tying it in with the "teen dream" ideal, so they were kind of mixing. i think possibly, part of the attraction for the teenage girls is that he's "fit"-- i imagine they think he's got "sleek seeker muscle" (i've certainly seen that description a number of times), and all that obsession with quidditch and competition and how good he looks on a broom, and so on.
overall, i think i probably digressed too much into h/d rather than fanon and draco (though as i said, to me they're connected), and that made what point i had rather bloated (or lost, anyway). but this was merely talking about fanon, which you can treat as a separate entity if you wanted to, which is what i was trying to do ^^
no subject
Date: 2003-04-10 05:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-10 06:12 am (UTC)i'll assume you mean "canon" and "fanon".
canon is a characterization or any story/character/place/etc built entirely from the "source material". fanon is something (a characterization) interpreted from a fanfiction of the same source material.
er. hope that's what you wanted -.-
no subject
Date: 2003-04-10 07:30 am (UTC)That is, thank you. I don't like Harry Potter fic, or the concept of, because I've read the books, and shudder at even the idea of a lot of the stuff that seems to go on in this fandom, but since I'm a slasher, I do kind of like the idea of (preferably older) Harry/Draco - which I found in your link. Oh dear. But ew anything else. Really. :D