~~putting things to rest.

[reenka]

i hate debate. i'm really not kidding, i just really dislike being put on the spot and having to defend myself because my brain frazzles and i start to sound like an idiot. not that i don't always sound like an idiot, but anyway. i like -discussion-, especially with people who are semi-sympathetic to me, or at least we shake hands at the end because it's all in the spirit of fun. or something. so anything i say here isn't meant as part of a debate, simply because i'm worn out at this point. it's meant as just organizing my thoughts, and if it inspires others to have similar thoughts or wildly different thoughts, that's perfectly fine, but i don't want to argue about it.
    if debate-- and me having what seems like an indefensible opinion-- that i can't defend and don't think is even actually what my opinion -is-, then no, i don't want any part of most any debate-- and especially if all this means that my so-called opinion will set people i respect against me and have them be upset with me. then i'd rather express no opinion at all. peace is more important than being understood, in some cases. because discussion is one thing, and argument is another, and nothing really positive ever comes from arguing. people just get more and more wound up, and toes get stepped on, and feelings get hurt...

    to the point where i'm seriously considering asking the people i feedback whether they still want my feedback or not. and whether i should feedback anyone but the 5 people or so i'm quite certain want it, at this point. which is just, this is when it's gone too far, for me anyway.
    and just to clarify, this is mostly inspired by the debate on cassie claire's journal, which one could look up if one wanted.

the necessary disclaimer being that i agree that you need to know canon to write/critique coherently. i personally never said it's my holier-than-thou stance that i personally am rejecting canon and saying i don't want it and get it far away from me. i have issues with it, but also a large amount of affection for it. no, it's not as dear to me as `the forgotten beasts of eld', but then, that's my favorite fantasy book and so what. all it is, is just a matter of making time and procrastinating. but anyway, to get the issue (far, far) away from me...
    my only quibbles are of degree and definition, really.

    i respect everyone's opinion, and i am willing to listen, but as far as actual -discussion-, that might not be the best thing for my overall mental health right now.
    and i know i said i'm semi-leaving, and okay, so i was really frazzled at the time, and i guess i don't mean it. but i'm not touching this anymore after this post.
~~



    the topic being (gahd help me) multifold, so i'll just organize it into four large subgroups:

1. do you need to read (all of) canon to write fanfic (leaving aside the desireability of this, and merely speaking about possibility)?

1a.) what sort of fanfic? in-character fanfic? detailed fanfic? or fanfic that uses just one aspect, or two aspects, or five or ten aspects of canon. is that not fanfic? if not, what is it?
    - is in-character fanfic a preference, or is it the definition of fanfic?
    - if it is the definition, what does one call fanfic that is in-character in some places but not in others?
    - what if it's accidentally in-character?
    - what if it's in-character given certain circumstances that drastically change canon?
    - who can be the objective judge of in-characterness here, if you've changed canon to such a significant degree? isn't it then using fuzzy (i.e., subjective) logic?
    - as far as detailed fanfic, can it be possible to create and appreciate detail that fits a theme, rather than repeats it?

1b.) why do you need to know -all- of canon to appreciate and be able to intelligently analyse or respond to -every- fanfic?

1c.) is it possible that some fanfics don't require it?
    - is it possible that there are degrees of knowledge and degrees of appreciation? are we saying -full- appreciation, or a -sort- of appreciation?

1d.) can you -mostly- appreciate it on an independent level, and partly appreciate it for its relationship to what -you- think of when you think of "canon"?

1e.) can different people have different overall versions of the same text in their minds, and still agree on a particular interpretation?

1f.) is the mere factual reading of canon the most important aspect, in every single case (admitting it's always -an- issue, just, is it always the greatest issue)?
    - just how much does a subjective interpretation of canon influence one's treatment and relationship with the facts?
    - are facts necessarily in the forefront of everyone's relationship with every canon, and do they need to be, even in writing fic for that canon?
    - don't books also exist on a more holistic level?
    - does one always need a full factual knowledge to access this holistic understanding? if so, on what basis?
~~

2. do you need to read (all of) canon to coherently critique fanfic in every case (leaving aside the desireability of knowing/reading all of canon)?

2a.) what sort of critique?
    - is all canon-related critique the same?
    - is all style critique the same?
    - can critique be different things to different people?
    - can there be different, but equally valid approaches to analysis?
    - can some of these approaches require more specific knowledge than others (leaving aside the desireability of these, and merely speaking about their validity)?

2b.) what sort of fanfic?
    - is all fanfic the same, and should it all be judged the same?

2c.) are there different kinds of fanfiction-writing approaches that may call for different types of critique?
    - can there be different sorts of canon-related issues, that may preclude detailed comparative analysis in some cases but nevertheless draw their insights at least partly from the source material?
    - if not, why not?

2d.) can you know -some- canon and have that tide you over until you know more, or is this always a case where you need to know everything in order to know anything?
    - is it possible (leaving aside the desireability of this) to intuitively fill in gaps, in some cases?
    - what about people who write and discuss fanfic written after only several episodes or one/two books are -out- (i.e., the case with the `firefly' fandom)?

2e.) can there be characteristics that are general tones, rather than exact details? are exact details always equally important?
    - what about the people who don't remember the exact details after time has passed?
    - are they not qualified to write/review and secondarily, how does this impact their fan status?
    - can you possibly extrapolate the specific correctly from a knowledge of the general, partly buffered with specifics? [lasair & penelope pinpoint this idea rather well, here.]

[regarding the question of the general significance of exactness, i found this thread on penelope's post made sense to me. it probably does have to do with the reader's level of attachment to the canon-- and naturally, there are degrees and differences in this attachment and thus in the response to degrees of exact accuracy.]
~~

3. do you need to -love- (all of) canon to appreciate fanfic?

3a.) if you don't love all of canon, or if you love merely aspects of canon you pick at leisure, can you be said to love canon?
    - again, who gets to decide how you feel, other than you, as the fan in question?
    - why is this judgment necessary, beyond the self-evident fact of one's enjoyment of -something-, if someone is in a fandom to start with?

3b.) is it possible to love mostly your own or other fans' versions of canon?
    - [this isn't to say fanon, because fanon is often contradictory and consists of the personal visions and whimsies of many different fans. while canon is a singular entity encompassed within the text of a book or the episodes of a show, fanon runs the gamut of meta-discussion, canon discussion, all the differing genres and factions and pairings and allegiances within fanfic writers (to be obvious, the difference between slash fanon and het fanon), roleplay, media tie-ins and their own discussion, and so on.]
~~

4. when one says, "canon is important", does that mean all of canon, for all applications?

4a.) if you're saying "canon" is indispensible for characterization critique in particular, does this imply a method or simply a result?
    - can there be some differences in method in terms of getting a similar result (i.e., a correct understanding)?

4b.) does that mean it has to be important to everyone in the same way?
    - does that mean it has to be -equally- important?
    - does that mean "important" means merely complete, in-depth, exhaustive knowledge, or merely an appreciation, or respect, or love, or does it mean both?
    - does your relationship with canon have to be something you share with other fans, and if so, does it have to be all-inclusive at the same time?

[as an aside, i suppose "fandom" implies you share a certain relationship with the source material-- one of fannishness, fanaticism-- the source of the word "fan" in the first place. the only question here is, does "source material" have the same significance and meaning to every fan?
    what i mean is, does a positive response imply an -identical- response, and does it even prove everyone has to be responding to the same stimuli? i suppose this is sort of like that idea of every holy man touching a different part of the elephant. except not really. heh.]

4c.) if it's just attention/respect, how much respect do you need to have?
    - do you need to respect every aspect of canon? why can't you pick and choose?
    - is it an insult to the author to disregard or ignore certain things, or is it an insult to the readers, who are assumed to be uniformly enamoured with the original, as well as uniformly informed?
    - how exactly does this impact the concept of a "casual fan"?
    - what role does heavy identification with other fans play in the need to have the same relationship with canon?
    - is this level of identification necessary to have the united entity called a "fandom"?

4d.) is being a fanfic writer something or critiquer or anything to do with fandom something defined by the other fans, or by yourself?
    - can you simply be a fan in the way you want, just because you say so, or do you have to be recognized as performing different functions in the fandom?
    - similarly, is it some group of fans outside of your circle that has to be the one to call you a plebe, or conversely, an "intelligent", "real" fan? or can only the intelligent, more meta-conscious fans decide on inter-fandom definitions?
    - who gets to decide who is a "real" fan (or fanfic writer or critiquer or anything else), and why is it important to decide this? in other words, what is at stake here, in this definition of fans by fans?

4e.) where is the line between the status given you in fandom, and the status you possess merely -doing- what you're doing, regardless of others' opinion of it?
~~

and now, to get all personal about this.


i started off with a strong antipathy towards jk rowling's first book, merely reading a few pages. first of all, i had the disdain of a fantasy old-timer towards something so hugely popular, something that drove in all these plebes to the safe retreat that is my beloved genre. no big deal, just a small amount of distaste, similar to most popular things within the fantasy book genre (well, i haven't even read most of them, but i just have a knee-jerk reaction, not uncommon).
    i'm not so much an elitist as much as i dislike the pollution of the pool of fantasy fiction by all this mass-market stamped-out sameness. there is less diversity and more dreck with every passing year. oh well. who cares, blah blah.

this is to say, i have a "canon" of my own, of sorts. a fantasy canon. i have certain broad allegiances in terms of fantasy literature in general. i am very picky and somewhat jaded and i've always kept my opinions to myself, since really, who cares what you like or don't like unless they're either fanatically aligned or opposed, neither of which matters to me that much (though if you say you like a favorite author, i -am- likely to think more highly of you). i've read a lot of fantasy, since i began reading-- i started with fairytales and i never stopped. so i'm rather harsh and demanding in my desires, in this particular field. i've always said that if can be said to know any subject at all, the only one i'd be certain of is fantasy literature. i've just spent that much time on it.

but really, all i want is a good story, but this is often secondary to it being brilliantly told. i'm a style whore, and unapologetically so. it's just who i am. on the other hand, i am easily wowed by adventure and the right sort of story-- we all have our buttons. i have plenty of favorite writers who i wouldn't call stylistically brilliant, but just something about their stories gets to me, and i can't let go. usually, these are personal, emotionally-centric stories, about a character i can identify with. i very rarely go for large scopes and epicness and good and evil doing battle, unless it's also centered on the life of one highly fascinating character. in the case where i do read epics, i tend to almost ignore the epic battle aspect, and just take it as background.

so what i'm saying is, i have a heavy bias for stories that have lots of readily apparent richness in characterisation, and hopefully a very engaging style. adventure stories are an old love, and i do adore them-- but this is again dependent on style, whether i find it engaging and fun and humorous, personally. this is why i could never get into jrr tolkien-- story isn't enough. the style, in that particular work of his (though not his short stories) rather kills me.

given this heavy bias, i still did warm towards hp when i saw the movie. i adore almost every fantasy movie i've ever seen (there are rather few, and i'm not picky there), and that one in particular was just adorable. i loved it. i enjoyed a great deal of the fanfic i accidentally found surfing in a different fandom, and my love affair with hp fanon began. mostly, i have to admit, h/d, even now.

over time, i began to get more and more affectionate towards the canon-- i read most of the first book and a quarter of the second, and i rather enjoyed them, though i've stalled, getting distracted. i think i have fandom to thank for this-- everyone's love has certainly heavily inspired my own, even if i still haven't matched the ardor of many others, nor probably ever will. i call it -affection-, not blinding love. and i hope that's okay and doesn't offend anybody.

in terms of why do -i- write fanfic when i could just keep writing original fic (i won't talk about why do i review, and why do i review the way i do, and why/how can i possibly talk about meta, because i just -do-, that's who i am and how i think, end of story). the answer here is rather simple: because i'm inspired to. there is no heavy-duty reason. does there need to be?
    i am inspired by everything-- canon and fanon discussion, lj posts, others' fanfic, my own ideas about the characters, my burning desire to see those people i think of as "harry" and "draco" snog, etc. i don't write fanfic, as a rule, not for any canon, no matter how i love it-- it doesn't come naturally to me. but i was inspired in this fandom unlike any others-- i felt like it, and i had something to say. so i did.

if anything, i like the constraints-- not so much that i need them because i'm lazy, but because they challenge me and inspire me to write around them. it sets boundaries within which to play it, and that helps me decide on a direction. in my mind, the possibilities are endless, so my discipline in terms of setting my own boundaries in terms of characterization was always on the low side, and my characters would up being reflections of me, to some degree. if i -know- for certain who a character -isn't- (ie, isn't me), it seems to help. also, the sort of foundation for plot fanfic provides you-- i mean, if you read canon you would probably have even -more- of a foundation, but even knowing only some things, you get ideas. at least, i do. and this helps me write.

i don't see how calling me lazy is different from calling any fanfic writer lazy. i think it's the same issue of being inspired vs. not being inspired-- and also simply using this already partly-defined space to practice in. i'm not saying it's "just practice", but in a way all writing, to me, is equally practice and serious at the same time. i experiment, i invent, i try to improve on my previous attempts and try again. i am not ungrateful to jkr and to the fanfic writers she inspired who've inspired me in turn-- in fact, i love the whole communal nature of it, the way we all inspire and help each other. a community of writers and readers, in a sort of symbiotic feedback loop. i can't help but love it.

and now, i can finally shut up -.-

EDIT - oh hell, comment away if you want. sigh.

Comments

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heh. well... you're right, about the fact that i could've read them instead of this and that, and that i -have- been putting it off. there are so many -other- things to do. gah. like read highlander pr0n. you know >:D<

i think this whole "defiance" thing is only because i'm stubborn, not because i'm flouting the need to read them. i mean... i mean, it goes against my nature to completely fold-- like-- especially this issue of "how can i be meta", you know? that's really the only reason i've kept babbling about it. i think aja's response on cassie's lj really shows most of the reason. i know a lot of people don't think of me as some sort of "fic-rec goddess"(!!), but to have the whole "how -could- you" question raised just makes me rather unreasonable. you know?

i've only posted this because a) lasair posted her entry the day before yesterday, and then b) cassie claire's entry followed, which meant c) all hell broke loose when i commented on both. it's not a question of me suddenly ranting when i could be reading. i responded once, and then people just piled up. until i couldn't breathe. i swear, i was just like, losing it. if not for lasair and maya-- i dunno. i just can't take it, even though one couldn't even call it a kerfuffle.

and anyway, i wasn't basing it only on fanfic. i read one and a half books, which isn't much but it's -something-. i've basically read a cliff's notes version of all of them, by now. i know the plot rather well if not exactly in complete detail, i've seen more meta-discussion than i can shake a stick at, i've discussed so many things with people who -are- canon informed so many times. i even have a friend who's read the books and has a great memory, who i've discussed it with almost every day since like, this summer. and i'm not saying this makes me qualified! but neither does it make me the usual case.

it's just. i could just agree, and say yes. on the other hand, this sweeping discreditation bothers me, and i can't help that, and it probably wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't aja and if...well.

but yes. see-- it's not the idea that i need to read them that i ever argued on. it's the idea that -if- i -could- in fact, discuss characterization-- and if one -couldn't tell- me from some who'd read the books-- shouldn't that mean something, somewhere, rather than have it be retroactively invalidated? it's the retroactiveness that bothers me. like, if you can, in fact, improvise in these alternate conditions-- if you -can- in fact, say something worthwhile-- you shouldn't be discounted in -retrospect-, based on new information. i think. that is why i'm being stubborn, anyway.

but i'm er, glad you're not getting personally affronted by my heathen ways. *laughs* thanks :D

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not personally affronted! But, for example, I disagree quite a bit with you when it comes to characterization (as you may remember from our long-ago debate on Penelope's LJ), and finding out you didn't read the canon certainly helped me to understand why.

I mean, Draco tends to be so OOC in the majority of fanfic, and I find his canon version so much more lovable. He's just a petty, malicious little twerp. Not some silver-haired sex god. And I always find stories of real, fallible characters more interesting than those between archetypes of Brunette Hotness and Blond Hotness. You know?

I just don't understand how you can write about either Draco or Harry (whether in your fics or in your analysis) without having read the books. Especially in the case of Draco, where we're given so little, so we really have to pay attention to every little detail or incident we're given in order to construct a convincing representation.

Plus, it's not just about plot. It's also about all the tiny details that make up the HP world. The really good writers tend to take these small elements and expand upon them ... whether it be house elfs or a certain potion or whatever. And you really can't have that textured knowledge of HP without reading the books. Broad outlines are not enough.

Anyway, I'll stop bothering you about this ... just my $.02.

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heh. well. er. i think there's a certain level of um... intelligence at work here which this idea of "brunette hotness nad blond hotness" doesn't take into account. that is, i'd have to be rather dumb to accept such characterizations in -any- fandom. i know when something is an honest portrayal, and when i'm seeing hyperbole and bad writing. anyone writing a one-dimensional, all sexy-happy-cool character, is not writing a realistic character. when i see flaws, patheticness, subtlety, unsympathetic traits-- i don't even need to know much, to know that's more of a quality portrayal. see?

like, that example you used on penelope's lj-- `facade'. you could transplant it to any fandom, and i'd tell you it's out of character, simply because they don't even act like -guys- in the first place. and if you -do- have them act like guys, and if you have them -make sense- and be unsexy and ridiculous and -human-, likely as not it wouldn't even -matter- to most readers that it's not quite perfectly in character, because that sort of story is going to be carefully and thoughtfully written. you know?

i can tell when i'm reading about too-good-to-be-true characters, and especially when i know this character is supposed to be a git, or a hero, even these broad outlines are enough to know that a number of common mistakes are just that.

our disagreement (though i don't quite remember anymore, quite), i think had to do with possibilities for draco rather than who he -is- in canon, because i wouldn't even begin to argue that. everything i know (and i -have- read enough to know -something-), and everything i've heard from sources i trust basically says he comes across as a hateful git 97% of the time (with exceptions). my only claims are usually more on the fuzzy logic arena of people being able to change, or at least that it's not set in stone. you could work with it. i think mostly in regards to making him more fully compatible with harry, which he admittedly isn't unless you imagine him so.

i mean-- see. when you think of fanon draco, you think of fanon you -hate-, and bad draco's and such. but-- when -i- think of fanon, i think also of people like you and penelope and dee and miss breed and silviakundera and aja and maya and lasair and cassie claire and everyone who's taught me a little about the -possibilities- and the different ways he could go. bad, ooc fic isn't the only fic there is. i mean, i'm not saying i could read `red' and know draco, for instance. it's more complicated, obviously. but fandom is a large place with many contradicting streams of thought, and fanfic isn't the only aspect of it. i've read many a characterisation thread on lj and mailing lists, and i -have- seen stories that are as far from `facade'!draco as he is from neville.

i'm not saying it's -enough-. but i'm saying that people greatly underestimate what one could learn indirectly, and what use a discriminatory mind could make of it (and that by now i've pretty much heard of most of the spells and details of hogwarts, heh, and i don't even mean in fanfic). i think it's much easier to understand if you've been in another fandom yourself, and have picked things up before canon was accessible. i mean-- i've found that people who're in more than one fandom seem to be the ones who're on my "side", even though they -too- say i should "just read them" (and i agree, i should), at least there's this sense of, "but yah, we value your opinion anyway".

*laughs* not trying to be defiant, though. will read the books before april 15th like a good little girl~:)

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

I don't want to run this conversation into the ground, because I know you're exhausted with it. So just one thing ...

when -i- think of fanon, i think also of people like you and penelope and dee and miss breed and silviakundera and aja and maya and lasair and cassie claire and everyone who's taught me a little about the -possibilities- and the different ways he could go. bad, ooc fic isn't the only fic there is.

Okay, that's a good example. How do you know how to evaluate each of these versions of Draco when you don't have the original to compare them to? I mean, I don't think my version of Draco is particularly good or on target, but there are a couple of people on your list whose versions I think are very OOC. Now, you and others are free to disagree with me, but the only way we can debate whether or not their versions of Draco (or mine) is in character or not is by referring to the books. This is what I meant.

Or -- to give another example you mention -- Draco's capacity to change. Personally, I don't think he will change or be redeemed. He's too weak and there isn't anyone who really gives a damn about saving him. Other people of course may see his character differently ... but again, we can't have that conversation without knowledge of canon.

This, to me, is what being in a fandom is all about. This is what distinguishes fanfic from other forms of writing. As a formal exercise it demands fidelity to an originial as well as improvisation. Without that balance, I just don't see the point.

But I understand you see it differently. I'm not in any other fandoms, or have any interest in being in them, so obviously my perspective and investment is different from yours. But I do think the HP canon is pretty damn accessible.

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

meep ^^
i didn't mean the -fics- of the people i mentioned, i meant their discussions. *laughs* i don't think i can think of anyone's fic that has a draco i would study and say "that IS draco", even if just to me. except maybe miss breed *grins*

i just meant to say that my fic-reading has been tempered and shaped also by lots of listening and correlating and thinking on people's analysis. i'm not like, repeating anyone's opinions in particular so much as learning from them, you know? i admit it's not the original source, but it's not null in value. like, i've learned almost as much about lex and clark from thamiris as i have from watching the show (*laughs*). not because i just take what she says and swallow it, but because she provides me with several frameworks of understanding them when i -do- see them or read smallville fanfic. i've developed a habit-- even when i read `television without pity' while watching buffy, before any fandom-- of mixing my reading with meta to buffer it. so that it's like... none of it has been raw, except for the stuff at the very beginning, which got me hooked. and as for how i can tell whether they're right or valid-- it's a process of comparison, error-checking, and sort of seeing the arc things take over time. the more i knew of fanon and canon (just in terms of facts), the more more i could judge others' meta, and that accumulated.

as far as his capacity to change-- the difference there is, you mean "within canon". i mean, "in any universe whatsoever, given his characteristics up until the end of fourth year"~:) i'm much more willing to wildly speculate and go off on tangents, and not be rigidly realistic. to me, it's equally important to be able to imagine the "what if's". what if something amazing happened? what if the impossible were possible? what if harry noticed draco's hot sweaty backside and/or amazing non-utter-cruelty one day (okay, -really- unlikely, and -never- to become canon, but ahahaha, you could almost say that's the genesis of some really good, though not necessarily rigidly in-character fanfics ^^)

i'm admittedly much more lax about it being strictly in the realm of pure realism. i'm a sucker, i love love-stories, i'm really just here for the h/d pr0n, and so on ;D

so i can kind of tell that while this fatalism is more "realistic" for a poor slytherin who always loses in each book (ahahaha, i did see the movies too, you know *laughs* and even -there- you have the horrible, awful bit with the banner-changing at the end. ergh. i have a feeling that's going to keep being a trend). so i'm not holding my breath for redeemed!draco in canon at all. it's just a sort of indulgence, because i'm shmoopy like that, as well as rather unreasonable, at bottom ;) (and man, I WANT THE SMUT, dammit. *laughs*)

and on that note.......
hee :D

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I guess the difference is that I always find canon more interesting than other people's versions of the HP universe. The only real exception to this I can think of are Olympia's fics, which aren't particularly canonical, but no one cares because she's so massively talented.

But I guess I shouldn't say anything more, because I think my own fics have become less and less canonical. I mean, not as farfetched as something like Underwater Light, which is cute but ridiculously OOC for both Harry and Draco, but I'm more interested in exploring sides of characters that aren't available to Harry's limited perspective. (Like the relationships between Lucius, Draco, and Snape). But at least the ways in which I'm veering from canon or using very small details to support my vision of the characters. And this is based on my firsthand knowledge of the books.

Then again, I'm dying to write a number of pairings (like H/D and H/S), but I just can't do it because I can't find a way to get the characters together in my head. Harry hates both of them, and that's pretty much it. That's why my Draco fic and my current Snape WIP are more about obsession than anything else.

Blah blah blah. Anyway ... I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think you can form your own opinion without a baseline to refer to, which is canon. Reading other people's analyses just doesn't cut it for me. But I will shut up now. :X

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

Erm. I meant "But at least I know the ways ..."

*flees*

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*giggles*
you know what? i don't mind talking with you or with ishuca. you don't depress me. hee.
it's more on that "discussion" end of the spectrum than the rather different experience i was having on cassie claire's lj, which was more along the lines of, YOU INFIDEL! (though that wasn't cassie. *laughs*)
ahem.

and yah. obsession. i totally know what you mean, because that's what i meant :D
i realize it's not particularly realistic but i don't care :D harry/draco (and `underwater light', similarly, for example) rulez me whether or not it occurs in the "real world" of canon where all they're likely to ever do is hex each other, and probably not even fist-fight (wah!!)-- though i have objections, strangely, if it doesn't seem "realistic" in other ways.

and yah, i know what you mean about a baseline. i have some though. it's not like there's zero. but yah. it's not really anything one could prove with logic. rather like sistermagpie's comment about talking about books in "great books" class, which she hadn't read for the class. you know, i do that all the time. not do my readings, mouth off anyone-- no one ever calls me on it-- ie, no one suspects if i don't tell them. *laughs* not trying to boast or anything (not boasting material, heh), but it's still interesting~:)

and wah. you should write h/d!! and they could still hate each other!! but THEY COULD HAVE SEX ANYWAY!! *laughs*

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[ishuca.livejournal.com]

This, to me, is what being in a fandom is all about. This is what distinguishes fanfic from other forms of writing. As a formal exercise it demands fidelity to an originial as well as improvisation. Without that balance, I just don't see the point.

(just got back from doing the dishes, and -wow-)

my final two cents- i really have to say that i agree with salazaar here, and that the above line crystallizes why.

for example, throughout most of february and march my four betas and i were caught up in a -huge-, long, and oftentimes volatile discussion of whether i was writing in character during PoL18. we argued perspectives, quoted canon, and discussed how the characters had changed through my own story.

and then azzy, my most canonically strict beta, said, "And I wholeheartedly disagree that using canon is anywhere near as foolhardy as making your own stuff up. "Draco the Amazing Bouncing Rat" is a great fic, but it's a lousy HP fanfic. I guess that's the question -- are you trying to write good fiction, or good HP fiction? The two aren't mutually exclusive, I know, but there are strictures put on how much non-canon you can use if you're trying to write the latter. It's the bloody definition of 'fanfic.'"

and he was absolutely right. :loves her azzy:

but anyway reena, if you think you need a break then take it (not too long, though!). you'll probably come back fresher than ever. just be sure i see you around elsewhere! :threatening look:

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

eh. i always knew i needed to read the rest of canon (*clings to her shreds of canonicity*) in order to really write what could be considered "Fanfic". that is why i'm rather surprised when people actually tell me i write in-character in this story or that (although not for my first few months of writing-- rather since this winter or late fall, maybe, it's happened more). and canon-stickler-type people told me this! i mean.. !! and stuff.

i never really claimed i write what could be easily considered "hp fanfic". although other people have. *laughs* i haven't been -happy- with it, but i just couldn't help writing it and it's been fun, and so on. but yah. point taken.

the only thing is-- just because i haven't read them all the way doesn't mean i know -nothing-, and knowing -something- just means it's a question of degree as to how good of an "hp fanfiction" i can write. you know? that was the point of half of my post. *grumbles weakly* that whole -degree- thing. that it's not a binary system. it's not that you Know or you Don't Know. i proudly claim to Somewhat Know, dammit! *laughs*

and eh, to the "break" thing, since that's only a break from writing meta posts and possibly reviews for the people who supposedly don't want my reviews now (*paranoia*). so like, a week maybe. ~:)
and wow. impressed with the level of canon-picking gone unnoticed by me. i've always thought your draco was rather classic-- whether that's in-character, i guess i can't say (*smirks*), but there you have it. maybe it's all the melodrama and angst and stuff. to me, it seems to be "canon" you'd need to be rather more even-keeled, more realistic-type humorous, just because that's jkr's style and it does influence her characterization. that's why miss breed's draco rings so true to me-- he's funny, even if he takes -himself- seriously, you can't quite take -him- seriously~:)

but wah. *slaps self* i can't believe i said that. pretend i didn't *grins*

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[ishuca.livejournal.com]

i never really claimed i write what could be easily considered "hp fanfic". although other people have. *laughs* i haven't been -happy- with it, but i just couldn't help writing it and it's been fun, and so on. but yah. point taken.

i didn't mean to ever limit what i said solely to fanfic alone. i think the concept extends over the whole nine yards, personally. it's part of my personal philosophy, i guess. i hold myself to it, and though i don't really do the same to others i'm going to be like addictedkitten and think very carefully about what they say otherwise. if, of course, i care. *____*

i proudly claim to Somewhat Know, dammit! *laughs*

lol, yes, you do. ^^

but depending on the person and how they use that knowledge 'somewhat' can be just as bad or worse than nothing at all. it depends on the knowledge, person, and use. the good thing about you is that you don't pretend to know more than you do. :hugs:

and yay, only a week!

well, the whole style thing is why i love fanfiction so much. it's a challenge to be both original and true-ish to canon, i think. and yeah, i can see how it might not seem like it, but i am frequently called to task by my betas over characterization issues. i personally don't know if i'm IC either, but since my four betas all are -such- varied writers, readers, and criticists it's just better to trust in them. ^^;

no, it's fine. because in the canon i could never take him truly seriously, either. =^-^=

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[unstasis.livejournal.com]

I think this does probably get to the core of the discussion indirectly..

(trying to hold self together and not disintegrate into solipsistic technospeak)

I think that question of whether something is OOC or not can really have a range of meanings depending on what.. how did Einstein say it.. "frame of reference" you are using.

I mean really if you think about it it could get a lot more complicated than simply canon versus fanon.. or maybe it would be better to simply say subjective versus objective instead.

I mean I think that is the essence of what most people are saying right? That she can't <> what's going on because she has only been exposed to subjective opinion versus objective reality.

But I think that there are probably some faulty premises in this idea.

The most controversial might be, is an author the final authority on their work? ie is it more important to be able to say, she meant this by that, rather than the most meaningful thing that readers revealed to her about her work was that...

And then how can you tell the difference between direct perception and indirect if there is no difference in the image (people's opinion)? (ie people were not noticing and commenting against her, but instead for her).

Then that image being created unwittingly, or as a process of observing rather than a goal..

Well I guess it all seems to come down to more of a moral issue of shoudl she do it, or allow herself to do it (one moment more in some cases it seems) rather than logically could she so it. Or more that the question seems more open.

I hope I said something useful beforeI got too sleepy..

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[unstasis.livejournal.com]

And I guess this shows why I'm lousy at instant messaging. I hurry trying to get the point out, but then I'm so longwinded and obtuse that I end up being irrelevant by the time I hit enter..

Well whatever, glad it all seems to be working out.