~~putting things to rest.

[reenka]

i hate debate. i'm really not kidding, i just really dislike being put on the spot and having to defend myself because my brain frazzles and i start to sound like an idiot. not that i don't always sound like an idiot, but anyway. i like -discussion-, especially with people who are semi-sympathetic to me, or at least we shake hands at the end because it's all in the spirit of fun. or something. so anything i say here isn't meant as part of a debate, simply because i'm worn out at this point. it's meant as just organizing my thoughts, and if it inspires others to have similar thoughts or wildly different thoughts, that's perfectly fine, but i don't want to argue about it.
    if debate-- and me having what seems like an indefensible opinion-- that i can't defend and don't think is even actually what my opinion -is-, then no, i don't want any part of most any debate-- and especially if all this means that my so-called opinion will set people i respect against me and have them be upset with me. then i'd rather express no opinion at all. peace is more important than being understood, in some cases. because discussion is one thing, and argument is another, and nothing really positive ever comes from arguing. people just get more and more wound up, and toes get stepped on, and feelings get hurt...

    to the point where i'm seriously considering asking the people i feedback whether they still want my feedback or not. and whether i should feedback anyone but the 5 people or so i'm quite certain want it, at this point. which is just, this is when it's gone too far, for me anyway.
    and just to clarify, this is mostly inspired by the debate on cassie claire's journal, which one could look up if one wanted.

the necessary disclaimer being that i agree that you need to know canon to write/critique coherently. i personally never said it's my holier-than-thou stance that i personally am rejecting canon and saying i don't want it and get it far away from me. i have issues with it, but also a large amount of affection for it. no, it's not as dear to me as `the forgotten beasts of eld', but then, that's my favorite fantasy book and so what. all it is, is just a matter of making time and procrastinating. but anyway, to get the issue (far, far) away from me...
    my only quibbles are of degree and definition, really.

    i respect everyone's opinion, and i am willing to listen, but as far as actual -discussion-, that might not be the best thing for my overall mental health right now.
    and i know i said i'm semi-leaving, and okay, so i was really frazzled at the time, and i guess i don't mean it. but i'm not touching this anymore after this post.
~~



    the topic being (gahd help me) multifold, so i'll just organize it into four large subgroups:

1. do you need to read (all of) canon to write fanfic (leaving aside the desireability of this, and merely speaking about possibility)?

1a.) what sort of fanfic? in-character fanfic? detailed fanfic? or fanfic that uses just one aspect, or two aspects, or five or ten aspects of canon. is that not fanfic? if not, what is it?
    - is in-character fanfic a preference, or is it the definition of fanfic?
    - if it is the definition, what does one call fanfic that is in-character in some places but not in others?
    - what if it's accidentally in-character?
    - what if it's in-character given certain circumstances that drastically change canon?
    - who can be the objective judge of in-characterness here, if you've changed canon to such a significant degree? isn't it then using fuzzy (i.e., subjective) logic?
    - as far as detailed fanfic, can it be possible to create and appreciate detail that fits a theme, rather than repeats it?

1b.) why do you need to know -all- of canon to appreciate and be able to intelligently analyse or respond to -every- fanfic?

1c.) is it possible that some fanfics don't require it?
    - is it possible that there are degrees of knowledge and degrees of appreciation? are we saying -full- appreciation, or a -sort- of appreciation?

1d.) can you -mostly- appreciate it on an independent level, and partly appreciate it for its relationship to what -you- think of when you think of "canon"?

1e.) can different people have different overall versions of the same text in their minds, and still agree on a particular interpretation?

1f.) is the mere factual reading of canon the most important aspect, in every single case (admitting it's always -an- issue, just, is it always the greatest issue)?
    - just how much does a subjective interpretation of canon influence one's treatment and relationship with the facts?
    - are facts necessarily in the forefront of everyone's relationship with every canon, and do they need to be, even in writing fic for that canon?
    - don't books also exist on a more holistic level?
    - does one always need a full factual knowledge to access this holistic understanding? if so, on what basis?
~~

2. do you need to read (all of) canon to coherently critique fanfic in every case (leaving aside the desireability of knowing/reading all of canon)?

2a.) what sort of critique?
    - is all canon-related critique the same?
    - is all style critique the same?
    - can critique be different things to different people?
    - can there be different, but equally valid approaches to analysis?
    - can some of these approaches require more specific knowledge than others (leaving aside the desireability of these, and merely speaking about their validity)?

2b.) what sort of fanfic?
    - is all fanfic the same, and should it all be judged the same?

2c.) are there different kinds of fanfiction-writing approaches that may call for different types of critique?
    - can there be different sorts of canon-related issues, that may preclude detailed comparative analysis in some cases but nevertheless draw their insights at least partly from the source material?
    - if not, why not?

2d.) can you know -some- canon and have that tide you over until you know more, or is this always a case where you need to know everything in order to know anything?
    - is it possible (leaving aside the desireability of this) to intuitively fill in gaps, in some cases?
    - what about people who write and discuss fanfic written after only several episodes or one/two books are -out- (i.e., the case with the `firefly' fandom)?

2e.) can there be characteristics that are general tones, rather than exact details? are exact details always equally important?
    - what about the people who don't remember the exact details after time has passed?
    - are they not qualified to write/review and secondarily, how does this impact their fan status?
    - can you possibly extrapolate the specific correctly from a knowledge of the general, partly buffered with specifics? [lasair & penelope pinpoint this idea rather well, here.]

[regarding the question of the general significance of exactness, i found this thread on penelope's post made sense to me. it probably does have to do with the reader's level of attachment to the canon-- and naturally, there are degrees and differences in this attachment and thus in the response to degrees of exact accuracy.]
~~

3. do you need to -love- (all of) canon to appreciate fanfic?

3a.) if you don't love all of canon, or if you love merely aspects of canon you pick at leisure, can you be said to love canon?
    - again, who gets to decide how you feel, other than you, as the fan in question?
    - why is this judgment necessary, beyond the self-evident fact of one's enjoyment of -something-, if someone is in a fandom to start with?

3b.) is it possible to love mostly your own or other fans' versions of canon?
    - [this isn't to say fanon, because fanon is often contradictory and consists of the personal visions and whimsies of many different fans. while canon is a singular entity encompassed within the text of a book or the episodes of a show, fanon runs the gamut of meta-discussion, canon discussion, all the differing genres and factions and pairings and allegiances within fanfic writers (to be obvious, the difference between slash fanon and het fanon), roleplay, media tie-ins and their own discussion, and so on.]
~~

4. when one says, "canon is important", does that mean all of canon, for all applications?

4a.) if you're saying "canon" is indispensible for characterization critique in particular, does this imply a method or simply a result?
    - can there be some differences in method in terms of getting a similar result (i.e., a correct understanding)?

4b.) does that mean it has to be important to everyone in the same way?
    - does that mean it has to be -equally- important?
    - does that mean "important" means merely complete, in-depth, exhaustive knowledge, or merely an appreciation, or respect, or love, or does it mean both?
    - does your relationship with canon have to be something you share with other fans, and if so, does it have to be all-inclusive at the same time?

[as an aside, i suppose "fandom" implies you share a certain relationship with the source material-- one of fannishness, fanaticism-- the source of the word "fan" in the first place. the only question here is, does "source material" have the same significance and meaning to every fan?
    what i mean is, does a positive response imply an -identical- response, and does it even prove everyone has to be responding to the same stimuli? i suppose this is sort of like that idea of every holy man touching a different part of the elephant. except not really. heh.]

4c.) if it's just attention/respect, how much respect do you need to have?
    - do you need to respect every aspect of canon? why can't you pick and choose?
    - is it an insult to the author to disregard or ignore certain things, or is it an insult to the readers, who are assumed to be uniformly enamoured with the original, as well as uniformly informed?
    - how exactly does this impact the concept of a "casual fan"?
    - what role does heavy identification with other fans play in the need to have the same relationship with canon?
    - is this level of identification necessary to have the united entity called a "fandom"?

4d.) is being a fanfic writer something or critiquer or anything to do with fandom something defined by the other fans, or by yourself?
    - can you simply be a fan in the way you want, just because you say so, or do you have to be recognized as performing different functions in the fandom?
    - similarly, is it some group of fans outside of your circle that has to be the one to call you a plebe, or conversely, an "intelligent", "real" fan? or can only the intelligent, more meta-conscious fans decide on inter-fandom definitions?
    - who gets to decide who is a "real" fan (or fanfic writer or critiquer or anything else), and why is it important to decide this? in other words, what is at stake here, in this definition of fans by fans?

4e.) where is the line between the status given you in fandom, and the status you possess merely -doing- what you're doing, regardless of others' opinion of it?
~~

and now, to get all personal about this.


i started off with a strong antipathy towards jk rowling's first book, merely reading a few pages. first of all, i had the disdain of a fantasy old-timer towards something so hugely popular, something that drove in all these plebes to the safe retreat that is my beloved genre. no big deal, just a small amount of distaste, similar to most popular things within the fantasy book genre (well, i haven't even read most of them, but i just have a knee-jerk reaction, not uncommon).
    i'm not so much an elitist as much as i dislike the pollution of the pool of fantasy fiction by all this mass-market stamped-out sameness. there is less diversity and more dreck with every passing year. oh well. who cares, blah blah.

this is to say, i have a "canon" of my own, of sorts. a fantasy canon. i have certain broad allegiances in terms of fantasy literature in general. i am very picky and somewhat jaded and i've always kept my opinions to myself, since really, who cares what you like or don't like unless they're either fanatically aligned or opposed, neither of which matters to me that much (though if you say you like a favorite author, i -am- likely to think more highly of you). i've read a lot of fantasy, since i began reading-- i started with fairytales and i never stopped. so i'm rather harsh and demanding in my desires, in this particular field. i've always said that if can be said to know any subject at all, the only one i'd be certain of is fantasy literature. i've just spent that much time on it.

but really, all i want is a good story, but this is often secondary to it being brilliantly told. i'm a style whore, and unapologetically so. it's just who i am. on the other hand, i am easily wowed by adventure and the right sort of story-- we all have our buttons. i have plenty of favorite writers who i wouldn't call stylistically brilliant, but just something about their stories gets to me, and i can't let go. usually, these are personal, emotionally-centric stories, about a character i can identify with. i very rarely go for large scopes and epicness and good and evil doing battle, unless it's also centered on the life of one highly fascinating character. in the case where i do read epics, i tend to almost ignore the epic battle aspect, and just take it as background.

so what i'm saying is, i have a heavy bias for stories that have lots of readily apparent richness in characterisation, and hopefully a very engaging style. adventure stories are an old love, and i do adore them-- but this is again dependent on style, whether i find it engaging and fun and humorous, personally. this is why i could never get into jrr tolkien-- story isn't enough. the style, in that particular work of his (though not his short stories) rather kills me.

given this heavy bias, i still did warm towards hp when i saw the movie. i adore almost every fantasy movie i've ever seen (there are rather few, and i'm not picky there), and that one in particular was just adorable. i loved it. i enjoyed a great deal of the fanfic i accidentally found surfing in a different fandom, and my love affair with hp fanon began. mostly, i have to admit, h/d, even now.

over time, i began to get more and more affectionate towards the canon-- i read most of the first book and a quarter of the second, and i rather enjoyed them, though i've stalled, getting distracted. i think i have fandom to thank for this-- everyone's love has certainly heavily inspired my own, even if i still haven't matched the ardor of many others, nor probably ever will. i call it -affection-, not blinding love. and i hope that's okay and doesn't offend anybody.

in terms of why do -i- write fanfic when i could just keep writing original fic (i won't talk about why do i review, and why do i review the way i do, and why/how can i possibly talk about meta, because i just -do-, that's who i am and how i think, end of story). the answer here is rather simple: because i'm inspired to. there is no heavy-duty reason. does there need to be?
    i am inspired by everything-- canon and fanon discussion, lj posts, others' fanfic, my own ideas about the characters, my burning desire to see those people i think of as "harry" and "draco" snog, etc. i don't write fanfic, as a rule, not for any canon, no matter how i love it-- it doesn't come naturally to me. but i was inspired in this fandom unlike any others-- i felt like it, and i had something to say. so i did.

if anything, i like the constraints-- not so much that i need them because i'm lazy, but because they challenge me and inspire me to write around them. it sets boundaries within which to play it, and that helps me decide on a direction. in my mind, the possibilities are endless, so my discipline in terms of setting my own boundaries in terms of characterization was always on the low side, and my characters would up being reflections of me, to some degree. if i -know- for certain who a character -isn't- (ie, isn't me), it seems to help. also, the sort of foundation for plot fanfic provides you-- i mean, if you read canon you would probably have even -more- of a foundation, but even knowing only some things, you get ideas. at least, i do. and this helps me write.

i don't see how calling me lazy is different from calling any fanfic writer lazy. i think it's the same issue of being inspired vs. not being inspired-- and also simply using this already partly-defined space to practice in. i'm not saying it's "just practice", but in a way all writing, to me, is equally practice and serious at the same time. i experiment, i invent, i try to improve on my previous attempts and try again. i am not ungrateful to jkr and to the fanfic writers she inspired who've inspired me in turn-- in fact, i love the whole communal nature of it, the way we all inspire and help each other. a community of writers and readers, in a sort of symbiotic feedback loop. i can't help but love it.

and now, i can finally shut up -.-

EDIT - oh hell, comment away if you want. sigh.

Comments

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

Reenka, sweetie, just READ THE GODDAMN BOOKS.

*pets*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*pouts* yes, i mean to, but. does this mean all this is invalid until then? *sighs*

[ishuca.livejournal.com]

well, your feelings certainly aren't invalid. and when your meta thoughts are kept firmly within the realm of fandom they're fine, too.

but.

i have to agree with salazaar. you should read the books, just like i really -hope- lasultrix will be able to find a treasure trove of highlander.

there are some things second hand information cannot express. i could tell you all about my favorite manga 'The Ice Cold Demon's Tale', write fanfic and do fanart and for all of that i know i could never truly express my subject matter.

beyond the experience one has when reading/seeing something for oneself (which really is a huge factor), everything i say would be tainted by opinion, my own opinion, and i don't think it's good to take information like that from a secondary source. you could argue that after having read countless fics you've come close to an almost perfect understanding of who the characters are, despite not having finished the source material.

but that would still be supposition. even objects can make less sense when one hasn't experienced them directly.

there's a reason academics strive to go right to the source when researching a topic. if they are anthropologists they go to the culture, if they're historians they look for primary sources. unless you've heard the music, reading a critique on someone's compositions does little for the reader. there's a reason for that, and i honestly think it applies here.

if you have the books, -read- them.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

all right, i understand that.

still. you must realize-- that it's not really an answer but rather a repeated axiom that i've heard 10 trillion gazillion times since the day before yesterday. i think it's a wonder i don't sleep and dream of little men telling me to "read the books".

it doesn't help that i say, "yes, i've been meaning to". everyone ignores that. that gets a bit frustrating. everyone except like, 2 people (it seems) tells me the exact. same. thing. i mean... even if that thing is brilliant, i think i wouldn't want to just on principle by now. if i was that contrary, which i'm not. just barely -.-

especially since i tried to make at least half of this post be not about me. it's not about me. lasair didn't mean for it to be about me. i haven't gotten really angry or really upset, but you can read the thread on cassie claire's journal and you could understand why i really don't need anyone else to tell me i should read the books. because that's how it's been-- no matter what i say, it's been "but you can't say it, you don't have the right until...". someone else could say something just like it and they'd get a different response, but not me.

this doesn't inspire me to read the books. this inspires me to leave the fandom. and okay, i haven't, i don't know if i could. but as i said in my last post, this is for fun. supposedly. any meta i have-- fandom or non-fandom-- either it makes sense or it doesn't. the -right- i have to say it shouldn't be an issue. that is, my right, bought me by my having read the books. the idea that i could be invalidated not by -what i say-, but -who i am, saying it- just drives me into complete incoherence.

i mean, yes, i should read the books, and i meant to, because i wanted to write better fanfic, ever since i started. but as far as any opinion i have-- one could agree or disagree with it, but not on the basis of it being -me- who has it.

no one was jumping on me for this when i just mentioned it-- several times, before, in this lj. i mean-- the people who're okay with me being how i am now and not "once i read the books", are the ones who knew i haven't, because they read my posts. the fact that -now- it matters, now that cassie and lasair brought it up, drives me nuts. -now-, now it's a question of personal integrity. a question of status and ability to retain credibility.

well, to hell with that. i never asked for credibility in the first place, people -gave- it to me because they thought i made sense. and mind you, it's not that i'm arguing that canon is unimportant, but rather that its importance is to me and my own understanding being fuller, and my own fanfic writing-- it should not be to whomever reads my critique or meta or what have you.

this whole idea of "qualification" may make sense in an academic context, but not here, not to me, and not after all this time. addictedkitten said that after the first time i mentioned my not having read all of canon, it made her more careful/wary of my analyses, and that's fine. she still discussed meta stuff with me when we talked, and still takes me on a case-by-case basis and that's all i want. wary is one thing-- simply to be discounted is another.

and it's just the feeling i get from a bunch of people, that i need these credentials now, to retain the -right- to be meta about anything particular. and yes, i agree my knowledge is incomplete, inexact, perhaps even faulty. am i making a study of hp canon? no. do i claim authenticity? no. i am merely expecting to have me as a person be left out of my meta-analysis, to a certain degree-- not even completely. just enough so that one would consider it without prejudice. if i'm right-- even if i shouldn't be able to be right-- then i'm simply right. even if accidentally. and i know this wouldn't work in academia, but this damn well isn't academia. this is fandom.

see. see, this is why i cut comments at first -.-
*laughs*

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

*pets*

[ishuca.livejournal.com]

what you see as an axiom i see as an answer. and sometimes the old truths do hold true. ;P

and the 'yeah, i've been meaning to' after a point just doesn't work anymore. i mean, we all have free time, otherwise we wouldn't be actively participating in this fandom. i know i certainly take time off to do other things- from things i have to do (argh, must.wash.dishes) to things i want to do (finish reading and then write a review of this cool new manga 'The Mythical Detective LOKI Ragnarok'). and i can understand not wanting to read/do something on principle (terry pratchett for me, but i do now enjoy him). but i honestly think it's different when you're in a fandom of the thing you haven't read.

and i don't know about people disagreeing with you because it's -you-. that personally means nothing to me, because i don't remember seeing it (seeing as i don't keep up with your meta posts) or even doing it. i'm hedging because your knowledge is potentially lacking, as i see it. which is not the same as a whole, encompassing -you-. because that would imply i am unsure of everything from your thinking to the way you write, which is not the case.

to me, it didn't matter before now because the issue was never raised. i knew, and the fact is that it -did- make me uncomfortable, because i am like that. but you've never angsted so much on it, so i never felt the need to put down my two cents. :shrugs:

and, to be honest, i have not been keeping up with your status or public credibility. most of that has to do with your meta, not why i like you, so i just don't much care. so i'm not seeing this backlash, to be honest. and i'm also just giving you my honest opinion. that has nothing to do with whatever mythic harry potter meta status you may have attained. (have you?) so i really can't say, in the context of the fandom, what i think of your status and profile. because i don't know.

i do know that from most of your reviews that i've seen you're ebullient, mostly thoughtful, and tend to comment more on the story part of the fanfiction, rather than how good a -fanwork- it is. which is your strength, and which is also why i've valued your opinions. canon stuff has always been taken with a grain of salt. but, again, i don't read your meta so don't know what you do in there. :shrugs:

and as for you having to have a right- well, that's horseshit, yes. the internet is a free domain where you -can- pretty much say whatever you like. and that's a basic right, too. honestly reena, you could say harry was a little green martian and that would be fine. it is your right to meta to the moon, should you so desire.

and perhaps this isn't technically academia, though internet fandoms are -my- realm of study. but that doesn't mean some/many of the same rules don't still apply. you cannot simply divorce the two cultures like that- people and the environments they create don't work that way. but again, i was stating my opinion, and i honestly believe one should be informed. i always have. and i was saying this generally, and not as an attack on your meta because to be perfectly frank -i- don't have the knowledge there to make a judgement call.

=^-^=

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee~:) wah. *sighs* thanks for putting it in perspective.

the reason for my angsting is this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/epicyclical/123754.html?thread=3651434), but really, this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/epicyclical/123754.html?thread=3667306) in particular. pretty much. yah. it probably makes little sense and seems rather over-the-top without knowing what inspired it. *resists urge to beat head against desk*

to say i was made "defensive" would be a large understatement. and. *laughs* i -know-! i've been like, -paranoid- that people see me as "miss meta", but. yah, that was the whole "reena turns into pariah overnight" thing. a bit overblown, admittedly >:D<

it got to the point where they were like, telling me i couldn't do the panel at nimbus if i hadn't read the books like, 5 times, and i was like, WAH. as well as aja (and others) saying i can't comment on in-characterness if i haven't read all the books-- not can't as in, "it'd be difficult, you wouldn't get it right, it'd be all wrong", but can't as in, "you CAN'T, it's not something you can DO". which kind of upset me. because i don't even canon-pick in the first place! *laughs*

yah, so it's all to do with that whole kerfuffle. i should've began this post saying, "so, i started a kerfuffle. first time for everything, right" :D

Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

... JUST READ THE GODDAMN BOOKS.

You keep saying that you're going to, but you could have read at least one of them, you know, in the time it takes you to write these long justifications for not reading them. And I don't really understand how one can even be meta without having read the books. Nor can I understand what your basis for liking HP can be without HAVING READ THE BOOKS. I don't even believe you and I had a discussion about my Draco characterization when you HADN'T READ THE BOOKS. Ali's comparison to visiting France in reality versus receiving a postcard is completely relevant here.

I don't want to be mean, but if I had known earlier that you were basing all your theorization of HP only on fanfic (and mostly crappy fanfic at that) ... *sigh*

I'm sorry, but yes, being so defiant about not having read the books does indeed weaken your credibility. Just as it would weaken anyone's. This is just basic: know your material. You can't improvise without a thorough grounding in and mastery of the basics.

Just. Read. The. Books.

I say this with love, you know. *soothes*

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heh. well... you're right, about the fact that i could've read them instead of this and that, and that i -have- been putting it off. there are so many -other- things to do. gah. like read highlander pr0n. you know >:D<

i think this whole "defiance" thing is only because i'm stubborn, not because i'm flouting the need to read them. i mean... i mean, it goes against my nature to completely fold-- like-- especially this issue of "how can i be meta", you know? that's really the only reason i've kept babbling about it. i think aja's response on cassie's lj really shows most of the reason. i know a lot of people don't think of me as some sort of "fic-rec goddess"(!!), but to have the whole "how -could- you" question raised just makes me rather unreasonable. you know?

i've only posted this because a) lasair posted her entry the day before yesterday, and then b) cassie claire's entry followed, which meant c) all hell broke loose when i commented on both. it's not a question of me suddenly ranting when i could be reading. i responded once, and then people just piled up. until i couldn't breathe. i swear, i was just like, losing it. if not for lasair and maya-- i dunno. i just can't take it, even though one couldn't even call it a kerfuffle.

and anyway, i wasn't basing it only on fanfic. i read one and a half books, which isn't much but it's -something-. i've basically read a cliff's notes version of all of them, by now. i know the plot rather well if not exactly in complete detail, i've seen more meta-discussion than i can shake a stick at, i've discussed so many things with people who -are- canon informed so many times. i even have a friend who's read the books and has a great memory, who i've discussed it with almost every day since like, this summer. and i'm not saying this makes me qualified! but neither does it make me the usual case.

it's just. i could just agree, and say yes. on the other hand, this sweeping discreditation bothers me, and i can't help that, and it probably wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't aja and if...well.

but yes. see-- it's not the idea that i need to read them that i ever argued on. it's the idea that -if- i -could- in fact, discuss characterization-- and if one -couldn't tell- me from some who'd read the books-- shouldn't that mean something, somewhere, rather than have it be retroactively invalidated? it's the retroactiveness that bothers me. like, if you can, in fact, improvise in these alternate conditions-- if you -can- in fact, say something worthwhile-- you shouldn't be discounted in -retrospect-, based on new information. i think. that is why i'm being stubborn, anyway.

but i'm er, glad you're not getting personally affronted by my heathen ways. *laughs* thanks :D

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not personally affronted! But, for example, I disagree quite a bit with you when it comes to characterization (as you may remember from our long-ago debate on Penelope's LJ), and finding out you didn't read the canon certainly helped me to understand why.

I mean, Draco tends to be so OOC in the majority of fanfic, and I find his canon version so much more lovable. He's just a petty, malicious little twerp. Not some silver-haired sex god. And I always find stories of real, fallible characters more interesting than those between archetypes of Brunette Hotness and Blond Hotness. You know?

I just don't understand how you can write about either Draco or Harry (whether in your fics or in your analysis) without having read the books. Especially in the case of Draco, where we're given so little, so we really have to pay attention to every little detail or incident we're given in order to construct a convincing representation.

Plus, it's not just about plot. It's also about all the tiny details that make up the HP world. The really good writers tend to take these small elements and expand upon them ... whether it be house elfs or a certain potion or whatever. And you really can't have that textured knowledge of HP without reading the books. Broad outlines are not enough.

Anyway, I'll stop bothering you about this ... just my $.02.

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heh. well. er. i think there's a certain level of um... intelligence at work here which this idea of "brunette hotness nad blond hotness" doesn't take into account. that is, i'd have to be rather dumb to accept such characterizations in -any- fandom. i know when something is an honest portrayal, and when i'm seeing hyperbole and bad writing. anyone writing a one-dimensional, all sexy-happy-cool character, is not writing a realistic character. when i see flaws, patheticness, subtlety, unsympathetic traits-- i don't even need to know much, to know that's more of a quality portrayal. see?

like, that example you used on penelope's lj-- `facade'. you could transplant it to any fandom, and i'd tell you it's out of character, simply because they don't even act like -guys- in the first place. and if you -do- have them act like guys, and if you have them -make sense- and be unsexy and ridiculous and -human-, likely as not it wouldn't even -matter- to most readers that it's not quite perfectly in character, because that sort of story is going to be carefully and thoughtfully written. you know?

i can tell when i'm reading about too-good-to-be-true characters, and especially when i know this character is supposed to be a git, or a hero, even these broad outlines are enough to know that a number of common mistakes are just that.

our disagreement (though i don't quite remember anymore, quite), i think had to do with possibilities for draco rather than who he -is- in canon, because i wouldn't even begin to argue that. everything i know (and i -have- read enough to know -something-), and everything i've heard from sources i trust basically says he comes across as a hateful git 97% of the time (with exceptions). my only claims are usually more on the fuzzy logic arena of people being able to change, or at least that it's not set in stone. you could work with it. i think mostly in regards to making him more fully compatible with harry, which he admittedly isn't unless you imagine him so.

i mean-- see. when you think of fanon draco, you think of fanon you -hate-, and bad draco's and such. but-- when -i- think of fanon, i think also of people like you and penelope and dee and miss breed and silviakundera and aja and maya and lasair and cassie claire and everyone who's taught me a little about the -possibilities- and the different ways he could go. bad, ooc fic isn't the only fic there is. i mean, i'm not saying i could read `red' and know draco, for instance. it's more complicated, obviously. but fandom is a large place with many contradicting streams of thought, and fanfic isn't the only aspect of it. i've read many a characterisation thread on lj and mailing lists, and i -have- seen stories that are as far from `facade'!draco as he is from neville.

i'm not saying it's -enough-. but i'm saying that people greatly underestimate what one could learn indirectly, and what use a discriminatory mind could make of it (and that by now i've pretty much heard of most of the spells and details of hogwarts, heh, and i don't even mean in fanfic). i think it's much easier to understand if you've been in another fandom yourself, and have picked things up before canon was accessible. i mean-- i've found that people who're in more than one fandom seem to be the ones who're on my "side", even though they -too- say i should "just read them" (and i agree, i should), at least there's this sense of, "but yah, we value your opinion anyway".

*laughs* not trying to be defiant, though. will read the books before april 15th like a good little girl~:)

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

I don't want to run this conversation into the ground, because I know you're exhausted with it. So just one thing ...

when -i- think of fanon, i think also of people like you and penelope and dee and miss breed and silviakundera and aja and maya and lasair and cassie claire and everyone who's taught me a little about the -possibilities- and the different ways he could go. bad, ooc fic isn't the only fic there is.

Okay, that's a good example. How do you know how to evaluate each of these versions of Draco when you don't have the original to compare them to? I mean, I don't think my version of Draco is particularly good or on target, but there are a couple of people on your list whose versions I think are very OOC. Now, you and others are free to disagree with me, but the only way we can debate whether or not their versions of Draco (or mine) is in character or not is by referring to the books. This is what I meant.

Or -- to give another example you mention -- Draco's capacity to change. Personally, I don't think he will change or be redeemed. He's too weak and there isn't anyone who really gives a damn about saving him. Other people of course may see his character differently ... but again, we can't have that conversation without knowledge of canon.

This, to me, is what being in a fandom is all about. This is what distinguishes fanfic from other forms of writing. As a formal exercise it demands fidelity to an originial as well as improvisation. Without that balance, I just don't see the point.

But I understand you see it differently. I'm not in any other fandoms, or have any interest in being in them, so obviously my perspective and investment is different from yours. But I do think the HP canon is pretty damn accessible.

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

meep ^^
i didn't mean the -fics- of the people i mentioned, i meant their discussions. *laughs* i don't think i can think of anyone's fic that has a draco i would study and say "that IS draco", even if just to me. except maybe miss breed *grins*

i just meant to say that my fic-reading has been tempered and shaped also by lots of listening and correlating and thinking on people's analysis. i'm not like, repeating anyone's opinions in particular so much as learning from them, you know? i admit it's not the original source, but it's not null in value. like, i've learned almost as much about lex and clark from thamiris as i have from watching the show (*laughs*). not because i just take what she says and swallow it, but because she provides me with several frameworks of understanding them when i -do- see them or read smallville fanfic. i've developed a habit-- even when i read `television without pity' while watching buffy, before any fandom-- of mixing my reading with meta to buffer it. so that it's like... none of it has been raw, except for the stuff at the very beginning, which got me hooked. and as for how i can tell whether they're right or valid-- it's a process of comparison, error-checking, and sort of seeing the arc things take over time. the more i knew of fanon and canon (just in terms of facts), the more more i could judge others' meta, and that accumulated.

as far as his capacity to change-- the difference there is, you mean "within canon". i mean, "in any universe whatsoever, given his characteristics up until the end of fourth year"~:) i'm much more willing to wildly speculate and go off on tangents, and not be rigidly realistic. to me, it's equally important to be able to imagine the "what if's". what if something amazing happened? what if the impossible were possible? what if harry noticed draco's hot sweaty backside and/or amazing non-utter-cruelty one day (okay, -really- unlikely, and -never- to become canon, but ahahaha, you could almost say that's the genesis of some really good, though not necessarily rigidly in-character fanfics ^^)

i'm admittedly much more lax about it being strictly in the realm of pure realism. i'm a sucker, i love love-stories, i'm really just here for the h/d pr0n, and so on ;D

so i can kind of tell that while this fatalism is more "realistic" for a poor slytherin who always loses in each book (ahahaha, i did see the movies too, you know *laughs* and even -there- you have the horrible, awful bit with the banner-changing at the end. ergh. i have a feeling that's going to keep being a trend). so i'm not holding my breath for redeemed!draco in canon at all. it's just a sort of indulgence, because i'm shmoopy like that, as well as rather unreasonable, at bottom ;) (and man, I WANT THE SMUT, dammit. *laughs*)

and on that note.......
hee :D

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I guess the difference is that I always find canon more interesting than other people's versions of the HP universe. The only real exception to this I can think of are Olympia's fics, which aren't particularly canonical, but no one cares because she's so massively talented.

But I guess I shouldn't say anything more, because I think my own fics have become less and less canonical. I mean, not as farfetched as something like Underwater Light, which is cute but ridiculously OOC for both Harry and Draco, but I'm more interested in exploring sides of characters that aren't available to Harry's limited perspective. (Like the relationships between Lucius, Draco, and Snape). But at least the ways in which I'm veering from canon or using very small details to support my vision of the characters. And this is based on my firsthand knowledge of the books.

Then again, I'm dying to write a number of pairings (like H/D and H/S), but I just can't do it because I can't find a way to get the characters together in my head. Harry hates both of them, and that's pretty much it. That's why my Draco fic and my current Snape WIP are more about obsession than anything else.

Blah blah blah. Anyway ... I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think you can form your own opinion without a baseline to refer to, which is canon. Reading other people's analyses just doesn't cut it for me. But I will shut up now. :X

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[salazaar.livejournal.com]

Erm. I meant "But at least I know the ways ..."

*flees*

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*giggles*
you know what? i don't mind talking with you or with ishuca. you don't depress me. hee.
it's more on that "discussion" end of the spectrum than the rather different experience i was having on cassie claire's lj, which was more along the lines of, YOU INFIDEL! (though that wasn't cassie. *laughs*)
ahem.

and yah. obsession. i totally know what you mean, because that's what i meant :D
i realize it's not particularly realistic but i don't care :D harry/draco (and `underwater light', similarly, for example) rulez me whether or not it occurs in the "real world" of canon where all they're likely to ever do is hex each other, and probably not even fist-fight (wah!!)-- though i have objections, strangely, if it doesn't seem "realistic" in other ways.

and yah, i know what you mean about a baseline. i have some though. it's not like there's zero. but yah. it's not really anything one could prove with logic. rather like sistermagpie's comment about talking about books in "great books" class, which she hadn't read for the class. you know, i do that all the time. not do my readings, mouth off anyone-- no one ever calls me on it-- ie, no one suspects if i don't tell them. *laughs* not trying to boast or anything (not boasting material, heh), but it's still interesting~:)

and wah. you should write h/d!! and they could still hate each other!! but THEY COULD HAVE SEX ANYWAY!! *laughs*

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[ishuca.livejournal.com]

This, to me, is what being in a fandom is all about. This is what distinguishes fanfic from other forms of writing. As a formal exercise it demands fidelity to an originial as well as improvisation. Without that balance, I just don't see the point.

(just got back from doing the dishes, and -wow-)

my final two cents- i really have to say that i agree with salazaar here, and that the above line crystallizes why.

for example, throughout most of february and march my four betas and i were caught up in a -huge-, long, and oftentimes volatile discussion of whether i was writing in character during PoL18. we argued perspectives, quoted canon, and discussed how the characters had changed through my own story.

and then azzy, my most canonically strict beta, said, "And I wholeheartedly disagree that using canon is anywhere near as foolhardy as making your own stuff up. "Draco the Amazing Bouncing Rat" is a great fic, but it's a lousy HP fanfic. I guess that's the question -- are you trying to write good fiction, or good HP fiction? The two aren't mutually exclusive, I know, but there are strictures put on how much non-canon you can use if you're trying to write the latter. It's the bloody definition of 'fanfic.'"

and he was absolutely right. :loves her azzy:

but anyway reena, if you think you need a break then take it (not too long, though!). you'll probably come back fresher than ever. just be sure i see you around elsewhere! :threatening look:

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

eh. i always knew i needed to read the rest of canon (*clings to her shreds of canonicity*) in order to really write what could be considered "Fanfic". that is why i'm rather surprised when people actually tell me i write in-character in this story or that (although not for my first few months of writing-- rather since this winter or late fall, maybe, it's happened more). and canon-stickler-type people told me this! i mean.. !! and stuff.

i never really claimed i write what could be easily considered "hp fanfic". although other people have. *laughs* i haven't been -happy- with it, but i just couldn't help writing it and it's been fun, and so on. but yah. point taken.

the only thing is-- just because i haven't read them all the way doesn't mean i know -nothing-, and knowing -something- just means it's a question of degree as to how good of an "hp fanfiction" i can write. you know? that was the point of half of my post. *grumbles weakly* that whole -degree- thing. that it's not a binary system. it's not that you Know or you Don't Know. i proudly claim to Somewhat Know, dammit! *laughs*

and eh, to the "break" thing, since that's only a break from writing meta posts and possibly reviews for the people who supposedly don't want my reviews now (*paranoia*). so like, a week maybe. ~:)
and wow. impressed with the level of canon-picking gone unnoticed by me. i've always thought your draco was rather classic-- whether that's in-character, i guess i can't say (*smirks*), but there you have it. maybe it's all the melodrama and angst and stuff. to me, it seems to be "canon" you'd need to be rather more even-keeled, more realistic-type humorous, just because that's jkr's style and it does influence her characterization. that's why miss breed's draco rings so true to me-- he's funny, even if he takes -himself- seriously, you can't quite take -him- seriously~:)

but wah. *slaps self* i can't believe i said that. pretend i didn't *grins*

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[ishuca.livejournal.com]

i never really claimed i write what could be easily considered "hp fanfic". although other people have. *laughs* i haven't been -happy- with it, but i just couldn't help writing it and it's been fun, and so on. but yah. point taken.

i didn't mean to ever limit what i said solely to fanfic alone. i think the concept extends over the whole nine yards, personally. it's part of my personal philosophy, i guess. i hold myself to it, and though i don't really do the same to others i'm going to be like addictedkitten and think very carefully about what they say otherwise. if, of course, i care. *____*

i proudly claim to Somewhat Know, dammit! *laughs*

lol, yes, you do. ^^

but depending on the person and how they use that knowledge 'somewhat' can be just as bad or worse than nothing at all. it depends on the knowledge, person, and use. the good thing about you is that you don't pretend to know more than you do. :hugs:

and yay, only a week!

well, the whole style thing is why i love fanfiction so much. it's a challenge to be both original and true-ish to canon, i think. and yeah, i can see how it might not seem like it, but i am frequently called to task by my betas over characterization issues. i personally don't know if i'm IC either, but since my four betas all are -such- varied writers, readers, and criticists it's just better to trust in them. ^^;

no, it's fine. because in the canon i could never take him truly seriously, either. =^-^=

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[unstasis.livejournal.com]

I think this does probably get to the core of the discussion indirectly..

(trying to hold self together and not disintegrate into solipsistic technospeak)

I think that question of whether something is OOC or not can really have a range of meanings depending on what.. how did Einstein say it.. "frame of reference" you are using.

I mean really if you think about it it could get a lot more complicated than simply canon versus fanon.. or maybe it would be better to simply say subjective versus objective instead.

I mean I think that is the essence of what most people are saying right? That she can't <> what's going on because she has only been exposed to subjective opinion versus objective reality.

But I think that there are probably some faulty premises in this idea.

The most controversial might be, is an author the final authority on their work? ie is it more important to be able to say, she meant this by that, rather than the most meaningful thing that readers revealed to her about her work was that...

And then how can you tell the difference between direct perception and indirect if there is no difference in the image (people's opinion)? (ie people were not noticing and commenting against her, but instead for her).

Then that image being created unwittingly, or as a process of observing rather than a goal..

Well I guess it all seems to come down to more of a moral issue of shoudl she do it, or allow herself to do it (one moment more in some cases it seems) rather than logically could she so it. Or more that the question seems more open.

I hope I said something useful beforeI got too sleepy..

Re: Don't leave the fandom ...

[unstasis.livejournal.com]

And I guess this shows why I'm lousy at instant messaging. I hurry trying to get the point out, but then I'm so longwinded and obtuse that I end up being irrelevant by the time I hit enter..

Well whatever, glad it all seems to be working out.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

well, to hell with that. i never asked for credibility in the first place, people -gave- it to me because they thought i made sense.

Exactly. THEY CANNOT RETROACTIVELY SAY THAT YOU DIDN'T MAKE SENSE.

Not wanting to flog a dead horse, I'll leave it at that. :)

Oh, except - if you're in it for the pr0n, you are so in the wrong fandom. Want more HL recs???

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*giggles* at this rate, i'll -never- get to those hp wips ;)

but yeah. i mean, i'm prolly not in it for the porn. *laughs* i mean, i don't even read some of the pornfic (ie, sara's fic) for the porn. *laughs*
but sure. yah. i -have- been bookmarking the stuff you've been mentioning on your lj. although i haven't read fic all this week :D

*has a lot to look forward to* :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's funny but even though I know that most people of course come into a fandom because they love the canon it's never seemed impossible to do it the way you have. Maybe it goes back to all those times when I was a kid and I'd show up to the Great Books meeting having forgotten to read the story. I'd spend the first fifteen minutes quiet and then, the more people talked, the more excited I'd get and I'd start totally leading the conversation as if I read the damn thing.:-)

With HP I have read the books, but I'm not someone who's read them over and over. (I do have some problems with a lot of things in it, but I kind of enjoy being able to analyze them too!) I tend to read something and then just use that as a springboard for my own thoughts. Sometimes I've been known to get passionate about something and then have someone point out that I've remembered a scene exactly wrong, which is why I do at least try to check with canon before I use a particular scene for proof of something.

It doesn't particularly bother me to think I was discussing an issue with someone who hadn't read the books. I actually can understand you're still putting it off not out of defiance but just out of...I dunno...there's just something that sometimes makes you feel incredibly tired when faced with a book you don't really want to read for whatever reason (either psychological or critical). The main incentive I would give you for reading them is that there's so much in there to chew on in your head once you do read it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

i am so the same way (re: discussing books i haven't read-- it's a tradition, almost, since i am -really bad- with doing my reading homework-- and when i say bad, i mean i never do it *laughs*). but somehow, i always manage to have something to say, and no one calls me on it. ahhhh, the fine art and science of bullshitting ><;;

and it's really so very cool that you understand about why i still haven't gotten to it-- as with so many other things on which we seem to understand each other. *grins*
because yes. tired. like, i look at it and i go... ummmmmm.... later. yes.

but. yes, the prospect of knowing more (as well as being able to mock better!!) does motivate me :D
the deadline also helps.

i still find it amusing that this whole thread wound up being about me, whereas i spend the most time thinking up those questions and being all impersonal and critical-minded. gah. there is no escaping the scandal aspect of things ><; *laughs*

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

Reena, why do you give a shit what other people think of your opinions? They are opinions, that is all. We all have them. Some of us are more entrenched than others. Some of us are louder than others.

I agree that you should know the canon material before you get all tangled up in fandom. But I think that about any fandom. However, when I got into Buffy, I had only started watching in S3, and hadn't seen S2 when I got into writing. Was I blacklisted? No. Did I go back and see all the old eppies as soon as I got a chance to make my writing better? Yeah. Your opinions on fannish matters are not invalid because you haven't read the books. You would have a more solid base to argue if you could say "I read the fucking books, I still think Draco is a woobie." It's about you and your comfort zone.

I think at this point you think people are invalidating you based on your knowledge of the canon material. So read the shit, and then laugh your ass off at the asses who mocked you. That seems like a reasonable scenario.

Most importantly, you should realize that people who like you adore you, and you can't just leap out of fandom over some issues. I have no idea what was said to you. If someone was mean to you, tell me who. I will fuck their asses six ways to Sunday.

You and I? We live on the complete ends of the same spectrum. We're still girls, and I still got your back. You are a good person, and you like to think and consider other people's ideas. Don't get upset over bullshit. Read the books and laugh at people who mocked you. That is my final word.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

<3!
WAH. YOU'RE SO GOOD TO ME!
out of everything anyone said to me, i think that's the most inspiring thing. hee! i think i'll re-read it right before i have to sit down and read for my silly redeemed!draco paper for nimbus(!! ahahaha i'll be arguing why draco could be redeemed, ahahahahah). ahem.

but yes! the mocking angle so works for me! yes!!
and like, i don't want you to um, hurt her or anything (although i totally appreciate it *laughs*), because it was aja on that bit on cassie claire's lj thursday night, and i think she's sorry now, and stuff. hee. but <3333!
am completely cheered up now :D

It's about you and your comfort zone.
!! :D *hugs*

Re:

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

why don't you ever IM me? blirak that's me. I am on now, bitch.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey there -- just wandered over here from epicyclical's journal to send along a bit of support. I was a little alarmed by how fast people got angry and started making the attacks...well, not personal, exactly, but certainly critical and disapproving of you and not just the ideas you were arguing. Kudos to you for keeping your temper and trying to respond to the ideas without escalating the debate.

And just my $.02....it seems to me that part of what's underpinning that whole unpleasant debate is really a debate over what constitutes "good" fanfiction. How much of it is about staying true to canon? How much of it is about good writing, no matter how much it does or doesn't adhere to the world of the books? Anyone is entitled to pick apart the writing itself (the grammar, the style, the clarity, the "internal consistency of characterizations") whether or not they've read the canon. And I do believe that even if individuals haven't read canon, they can still detect simplistic characterization and internal inconsistencies. Just to pull an example from a completely different field: Friends have sometimes asked me to read their personal essays and edit them, as I used to be a professional editor (not in books, though), and I've sometimes pulled in a friend of mine who *was* a professional book editor to help. My friend may not have known the writer, but she was much better than I was at seeing if the writer made his/her point and pulling out themes of the writer's life as revealed in the essay. It seems to me that a lot of the people who were not happy with the fact that you hadn't read most of the HP books viewed fanfiction as a very strict discipline in which the ideal was to hew as closely as possible to the HP universe as delineated or imagined by JKR. I personally have a preference for fics where the story universe seems as if it could be an extension of JKR's, and god knows I've been annoyed enough when authors get details just plain wrong, but I've found and enjoyed fics that strayed in many ways, and the more I read, the more latitude I'm willing to allow.

FWIW, I'm with you when you say that you like a number of fanfic authors better than JKR. While I enjoyed the HP books, I honestly don't feel she's the best writer. Like a number of other people, I find her characterizations rather on the simplistic side. This is different from saying they're outright bad -- I mean, obviously Harry and Ron and Hermione and others live very vividly in readers' minds and have clear personalities. However, I do agree with those who find the characters a little two-dimensional and cardboard all the same: Harry can always be relied upon to be honorable, Ron is fiery but well-intentioned, Parvati and Lavender are shallow, all Slytherins are nasty and with questionable morals. To me, JKR's gifts lie in her ability to imagine this world and her whimsical humor. In fact, I think the fact that her characters are so archetypal helps explain why they've inspired so much fanfiction: You know them well enough to feel you can write them, yet they're not so fleshed out that you can't project your own thoughts, reactions and wishes on them.

Anyway. Enough rambling in your journal about a topic that you've probably grown sick of long ago. But I just want to make sure you know that there are people out here who do agree with some of your issues with JKR's writing, and who think you did a good job of remaining calm and not flaring up during an uncomfortable debate.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

wah. thanks :D
i was initially disallowing comments, being afraid i'd have a continuation of the stuff from cassie's journal, but apparently not everyone wants to give me a hard time ><;;

*laughs* i probably shouldn't have brought up my opinion of jkr's writing (seeing as i don't have the "full picture"-- i mean... that whole thing about "well, even when i've only read 10 pages i already disliked it" probably didn't win any points among fans, ahahah). that was probably me getting rather testy~:) and two person, at least, did get offended (and naturally it had to be the two i've actually spoken to before and respect. sigh.) but yah.

that bit about detecting simplistic characterization even without knowing canon is true, and goes against the idea that if i don't know better, i'll just think -anything- is in-character. although my point was larger (ie, that you can in fact, gather a good enough-- though incomplete, obviously-- idea of the characters simply by reading others' meta and part of the books and just participating in discussion). but um. thanks :D

am sorry i brought up the "simplistic" thing anyway (wasn't worth it), but i only did because i thought it was not an uncommon view. though i suppose the fact that i have an affection for harry & the rest kind of got lost in the shuffle, i do anyway, simplistic or not. ridiculously enough, i -am- a fan. my plush!harry attests to this ;)

[koanju.livejournal.com]

I debated with myself a lot about replying to this. I really did. *laughs*

You might have picked up on the fact that I'm a canon whore. This goes for any series really, not just Harry Potter. As I evolve as a writer, I find myself much less tolerant to unjustified "liberties" that other writers/fandom members take.

It's entirely possible to be involved in a fandom without having ever seen the source material, and even be a "useful" or "intelligent" member. You yourself are a good example of that. Even you're critique is generally insightful, though I notice you tend to focus more on the formative aspects of the story rather than how the characters diverge or how it works within the guidelines the source sets out.

To me, though, I personally wouldn't get involved with something without having at least a passing knowledge of the source in it's entirety. Because, like you being a style whore, I'm a subtlety whore. *laughs* I live in the small gestures, the unspoken words, and the tiny details. So, to me, those can make or break a story.

Let's take Remus, for example, since I enjoy harping on the general bad characterization he gets. (And I don't want to get slammed for disparaging fanon!Draco since so many people like him despite his lack of connection to the canon.) Now, the general view of him that I've seen, show Remus as registered as a werewolf with the Ministry. Which leads to him being well-known as a werewolf and therefor an outcast from wizarding society. Yet, there's the fact that he has a wand - and in book four (let alone Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them) that non-human creatures are not allowed wands. Ergo, in order for Remus to a) have a wand and b) go to Hogwarts, his lycanthropy had to be kept secret from the Ministry. As for the second bit of it, Remus is accepted at Hogwarts as a student. By the time he leaves Hogwarts, only five other people know (James, Sirius, Peter, Severus, and Dumbledore). Now, in Prisoner of Azkaban, that circle widens to all of the current teachers. But note the reaction of the students around him. If it was widely known in the wizarding world that Remus was a werewolf, wouldn't the students react to that? Why are Draco's - whose father works in the Ministry and given his influence with Fudge most likely be privy to that information - only comments about Remus on the shabby quality of his robes?

Now, fast forward to the Shrieking Shack. Hermione has figured it out for herself (and weren't we all so surprised by that revelation), but Ron very obviously doesn't know. In fact, he's horrified and disgusted. If it were well-known that Remus was a werewolf, why doesn't Ron have that reaction at the beginning of the year?

Finally, we come to the end of the novel. Now, Snape outs Remus as a werewolf to the students and therefore their parents. If everyone already knew that Remus was a werewolf, why would Snape bother? As revenge it's less than effective.

Therefore, it only makes sense if Remus is known as a werewolf after the end of PoA.

So, when I read small things like that, even a passing mention, it drives me wild because it directly contradicts canon and simply doesn't make any justifiable sense within the story itself.

In a lot of ways the fanon offends me horribly because it seems to work on idealized versions of the characters or the characterization is based solely on one facet and not the whole. It's even worse when I see someone saying "Oh, I haven't read the books but I've read the Draco Trilogies and I loved them so I wrote this fic based on it!"

...does any of my babble make sense? *laughs*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

wah. i wrote this longish reply and everything, and it got eaten, and. yes. hee. you made sense, and i appreciate you being all delicate about it, though there's no need. i -think- anyway.

i totally know what you're saying. the thing is, this sort of "passing factual knowledge" of vital aspects of characterization isn't that hard to come by. simply because it's so vital, it gets discussed a lot. so even not reading any sirius/remus fic, i know it, and the history behind snape and remus, and of course your basic facts like remus being the 3rd year dada teacher are a given-- but even that bit about draco making light of remus' robes is rather common knowledge in fandom. at least, if you pay attention.

so much so, that when i read cos (before the movie), my surprises weren't the -fact- of harry being rescued by ron & the twins or lucius and draco having a conversation in the robe shop, but rather my own personal -reaction- to these things. i mean, i -know- the important things, but i don't have my own emotional reaction to anything that's not harry or draco. my biggest surprise was feeling sudden affection for fred and george and ron for rescuing harry, and sudden respect for lucius for actually having a clue while telling draco to pretend to like harry.

also, even not knowing, it's possible to tell when someone's bullshitting and when they know what they're talking about, even within fanfic. in the `star wars' fandom, i know the major canon-- ie, the movies, but not the minor canon-- ie, the `jedi academy' books which are most important in qui-gon/obi-wan slash. and yet, i find i can tell when a writer has read them and is taking care to keep qui and obi-wan in character, simply because the characterization is more complex and less melodramatic-- and there is more internal consistency and restraint, as well as a lot more references to their world and history. there are names of people, events-- repercussions from those events. no one who hasn't read canon bothers to make up fake events, you know (and not even knowing that made it AU, i mean)? it's weird, but i've never caught it in any fandom.

so knowing the basics, you can definitely also tell when someone knows more than you, because of the smoothness and the confidence, the way things just make -sense-. i don't much -care- about the canonicity of star wars slash, but it's still pleasasant when i could feel a history there-- it makes the story fuller, more able to stand on its own (ironically, since it's more of a fanfic in that case). that buffer of borrowed history fills it out, and i could definitely feel that.

hee. and i wouldn't slam you for (well, much of anything), but especially disliking fanon!draco. i mean, some of my favorite rants are against fanon!draco. it's just, fanon is a large place. your own rants are part of fanon (to me). simply because you're -you- and not jkr, you're creating a spin on canon, thus making it fanon. you know? and even if it was jkr talking about her own books-- that's neither canon nor fanon. but anyway.

my favorite draco is a nasty, pathetic, caustic git who has promise. he needs to have promise, because i'm a sap like that. but see, that's fanon too. there is more than one fanon. miss breed's draco and your draco and cassie claire's draco-- they're all equally fanon to me-- as long as i'm familiar with it, it's all equally real. if you've been in a fandom without knowing all of canon yet, you know what i mean. you just kind of -pick up- on the history. like, i know about buffy/angel and willow/oz and the fact that the First got introduced in first season, and blah blah bunch of random and not-so-random facts, blah-- and i'm not even -in- buffy fandom and i don't read fanfic or read that much meta, and i've only watched since last season, consistently! heh.

now, naturally i'd know lots more were i to watch it, and i don't think i know near enough to write fic-- but i still know -beyond- fic -and- the show i've seen. but thanks for not telling me to "just read them" :D i appreciate it. and the fact that not everyone thinks i'm an infidel-- at least not a hopeless one ><;; ~:)

[koanju.livejournal.com]

*hides* I own all the Jedi Apprentice books. They're actually a pretty good cheesy read.

I do understand your point. Honestly, I think you've got a better handle on the material than... Oh, 60% of the fandom who have read the books. Browse ff.net for several examples of people who have read the books and still don't quite know what they're talking about. That's why I don't dispute your right to talk about it, or discuss it, or fic it. Because there are people out there who are committing much worse atrocities. *laughs*

In a lot of ways, that what bugs me about fanon representations of characters so much. Because they don't make any sense and rarely are they justified in the story itself.

Oh, and an author's note at the beginning saying "I love Cassie Claire's Draco so I'm using him!" doesn't count. *stabs annoying ultra-plebe authors* Frankly, I find DT's Draco unbelievable for several reasons.

I suppose what bothers me most between canon and fanon and the writer's approach to them in fanfic is how logical it is based on the source. I don't see it as logical to have Remus be registered as a werewolf before he goes to Hogwarts because of the source material we're given in the books. Yet there are stories in which I think pull it off well - because they use that source material and logically extrapolate on it using some of the contradictions that JKR leaves us. The Ministry registration records, for example, are sealed and only the members of the werewolf division can access them. That's logical and uses the canon against itself.

So, it's a matter of justifying what you do. If you want Draco to prance around in leather pants and everyone love him and adore him, fine. I won't buy it unless you tell me within the scope of the story how he got that way. Show me how Draco was so radically transformed from a whiny, coward who rested on his father's laurels to a Slytherin Sex God.

That's what I'll respect more than anything. I'm willing to let things slide, honestly! Just be logical about your choices! *laughs*

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Well, darling, one thing I wish to state firmly is that I still want your opinions no matter what.
And yeah, I do think it'd be better if you read the canon, but you know, I also believe firmly that everyone does have a different approach to canon and fanon and I'm very prepared to believe that you don't need it like I do.
I mean, there are so many different interpretations of canon, for one thing, that nobody can read it the same. Everyone's value is set on different things and it's all, you know, *so* subjective, that I would never ever judge you. I think you're great.
After all, I've read canon several times and flicked even more and (lucky me) in this very thread o'commentary people have mentioned both my major fics as being ridiculously OOC. Maybe I shouldn't bother touching canon again. (heh heh, /end self pity, actually I agree that DMABR is ridiculously OOC b/c it is meant to be and a parody and all that, though obviously I plan to rush into a corner and weep about UL later)
So - where was I? Different opinions. Different values. I adore you. Don't feel down about it. I have no answers to your questions that would apply to both me and you. Don't think you have to apologise for being a unique individual, I hope you do read canon but I hope even more that you stay with us and are the same loffly reena you always have been.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*hums happily*
wah. *giggles* i can't really feel down. anytime i've tried, i'd giggle, thinking of terry boot or some other similarly evil thing(!!) and wah, you know i wuv you, and i'm probably hopelessly biased about ul 'cause i adore it so, so i'm actually motivated to read the books if only so i can confidently proclaim that they are, in fact, in character :D

i think most people just want and need draco to be somewhat of a git-- for harry to dislike him, at least at first, for draco to be unsympathetic and mean and dreadful. so naturally, he isn't any of those things in ul, and that just immediately makes it ooc to them. i mean, it's not like everyone loves him, but since most of ul is through harry's pov, there's definitely a lot of draco-lurve going on (*laughs*). the reason there's this divergence, i think, is 'cause you found draco adorable and harmless in canon, so it makes it in-character for him to remain so in ul, whereas a lot of people (ones who love fanon!draco -and- hate fanon!draco) didn't.

ul!draco is just so lovable and he obviously loves harry (*giggles*) and as of yet they haven't had major conflict (*anticipates*!), so um. i think the only thing is-- that harry so quickly saw these virtues in draco and became so ridiculously trusting so quickly. but the thing about him being the person harry'd miss the most probably had a lot to do with harry being a lot of open and vulnerable. i think you just have a unique view of canon, is all. because this implies that harry actually had feelings of some sort in canon, which a lot of people wouldn't accept~:)

the flashbacks should be interesting, especially if we see the seeds that led to the beginning of ul >:D<

*laughs* especially if they're seeds of something other than raging lust, which is what everyone usually settles for. ("but see, they want each other bad, always have!"). so yah, don't feel down for being a unique writer >:D<

[deche.livejournal.com]

i think most people just want and need draco to be somewhat of a git-- for harry to dislike him, at least at first, for draco to be unsympathetic and mean and dreadful.

First, I disagree with the idea that people want Draco to be unsympathetic. I wholeheartedly disagree. I want Draco to be sympathetic, but I DO NOT think that this justifies altering his personality to be nicer, kinder Draco. (Please note, I am not discussing UL or any other mayafic in this statement or likely the rest of this post unless otherwise noted). What I appreciate more than changing Draco is letting a person relate to him through his bad qualities. You can relate to Bad Traits. You can. We're human and we all have them, so appeal to that. I think that is such a strong, beautiful thing that people don't often do. Mean Draco can be sympathic. My god, and I'm not even talking about turning him into an abused child (by Lucius). I'm talking about the simple things about being someone who is frustrated or jealous or lonely. I think those things speak universal volumes in so many cases.

And if people expect Draco to be mean to Harry at first, it is likely because this is how book for leaves us off. Therefore, when we jump to fanfiction, most cases our Common Knowledge is assumed to be what was last provided by the author JKR, in other words book four. Therefore, I think it makes sense that a good deal of people expect Draco to be mean to Harry as that is the mindset they have left off from.

However, Draco being nice to Harry is strange, and I do not fault people being thrown off by this if they are not given clear reasons, ie. bridges, stepping stones, etc (as I told you about in prior comments). (And furthermore, bridges/stepping stones/reasons that they are willing to believe in and accept as plausible - and again, people will disagree wthat these are)

Personally, I agree with your point that perception of a character definitely plays a point (seeing Draco as funny and harlmess is very different than seeing him as a cruel bully), but that would not negate clear, consistant actions of Draco progressively putting Harry in uncomfortable situations. Furthermore, Harry himself is portrayed in canon as initially feeling "bad vibes" from Draco, before he even sees him do anything mean or sorted into Slytherin. And this sort of "prejudice" for Draco is pushed throughout the book.

Certainly, I am talking in a general context, but thereofre having Draco be nice to Harry (suddenly and without explanation) or (starting a fic off with) Harry being in love with Draco can be a bit jarring if an author doesn't develop these ideas first. They are not impossible occurences, but unless the reader is willing to accept that the author will explain this later OR accept Fanfiction in General as a universal explanation, I think one can understand how this might seem like alien territory. Those are reasons that I would have difficulty jumping into any story that assumed those sort of premises. I would need background glimpses, explanations of what occured between Canon Book 4 and Opening Scene Fanfiction.

People tend to think that wanting ICness automatically means that you cannot let these characters grow. That is not at all what it means. I feel strongly about using extrapolation to pull a character from point A to point B. However, you cannot simply jump without drawing some kind of allusion to the line that connects the points. (Unless point A and point B are very closely associated). I think as long as people take the time to provide enough information and development, without making large jumps, a lot of Canon Whores would not be opposed. (Although, there are some character traits that I could never see a certain character taking on.)

[deche.livejournal.com]

apologies for spelling errors. I apparently have sticking fingers that are often mistimed.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

well... er... so i guess there are three camps whereas i implied only two ^^
there's the "he's cute as a button to start with" camp (oversimplifying, here), the "he's a mean evil prejudiced lil death-eater who will never be truly worthy to lick harry's shoes" camp, and the "he's a mean prat but we like that" camp~:)

i didn't mean unsympathetic to the -readers-, but unsympathetic to the characters. since you can't really predict what will be sympathetic to the readers (evidenced by the fact that plenty of people dislike canon!harry, and like canon!draco). but yes, i agree with you, other than that one little definitional quibble. harry's attitude doesn't really change no matter what you perceive draco as. and even if you think harry secretly thinks more than he thinks he does, what he thinks he thinks (er...) still doesn't change ><

personally, i've accepted some cases where immediate attraction was rampant from the start simply because i've a history of being very forgiving simply because it's h/d. you've heard of the phenomenon, right? it's why people seek out h/d to the exclusion of other pairings. just to get their h/d fix. so you're not looking to be convinced, but just looking to be entertained. because honestly, very, very -very- few fics would work to convince me if i wanted to have them work for it. i mean... sometimes people try (ie, love-potions, spells, crying, imperius, people dying, etc), but sometimes-- oftentimes, you just have "and draco had always had a crush, and he just wanted to finally do something about it. when he finally cornered harry, he was such a good kisser that harry's objections lodged in his throat" or something.

eh. i think i'm rather tired and brain is going bye-bye, but yes. i vacillate, personally, between demanding bridges and just wanting it to be a fun story. but if you're looking for in-characterness, definitely, it's not even that hard. *laughs* it's not like it's some sort of extremely complex equation. on the other hand, harry/draco isn't the easiest thing to pull off while remaining entirely in-character, as most h/d writers know-- especially without using silly cheesy plot-devices, and without introducing awful amounts of angst (opening scene: someone's about to die....)

wah. it seems i can type even while half-asleep -.-

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

*notes that Dee has, indeed, very good points*
Is mostly just posting to say ack, still feel guilty about getting you all that flak for the UL review that I agreed with. wah. Really, I don't have to be treated like eggshells mostly, promise.
Canon Whores. Should be a group. ;)

[deche.livejournal.com]

It's ok, Maya. The reason I wanted to expressedly say I wasn't talking about UL to avoid any confusion. Because I wasn't talking about it, but I was replying to a post regarding it. But I couldn't talk about UL because I read (the first chapters) a very long time ago (several months or more) and I could not fairly talk about characterization when my memory is crap.

[starlitefaerie.livejournal.com]

I don't really have anything deep to say, just that if you leave this fandom I will hunt you down, hang out around wherever you live and just generally stalk you until you come back. Most of your stories are rather lyrical and faerie tale like, and not traditionally fanfiction-y, so I don't think knowing cannon is all that important for your writing.

And your thoughts, your comments, are just that. They are your thoughts on what you have read and what you have maybe picked up just being in this fandom. No one has to except your thoughts as, you know, the final word on HP and if they have chosen to do that and now feel disappointed and suprised? *shrug* Not your problem.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee. thanks :D
though, i -have- written not-so-lyrical fanfics (er, the harry-coming-out and the smutlet and the evil-kitten h/d fic, my humour fics in general, the harry/hermione, the latest h/d fics with the darkness and the evil, i think may be lyrical but the barfic in particular is rather meta but still fanfictiony, sort of). i oftentimes just write fic that comes naturally, and it tends to be rather abstract, but yah. i do think i've been gtting more fanfictiony, at least sometimes~:) especially in my non-h/d's and the character studies and humorfics-- which is like, probably 40%, but. *laughs*

i'm proud of them~:)

[novembersnow.livejournal.com]

I know I'm ages behind everyone else in commenting, and I'll probably just end up repeating everything other folks have said, but...oh well.

I knew you hadn't finished reading the books. You've mentioned it at least a couple of times in this journal, and I remember being a bit taken aback at first. But it never caused me to question your judgment, your ability to review, or your very place in the fandom. I love your feedback. I even enjoy reading your feedback to other writers, because you're always so enthusiastic and thorough in your comments. So you don't comment on canon issues. There are plenty of canon whores out there willing to do that. You, however, are consistently insightful in your critique of how a story works, the flow, the language, the process, etc., and that's just as important, if not more so.

I'll join my voice to the chorus urging you to read the books, but not because I think you have to in order to remain a productive member of the fandom. I just recommend them to everyone. :D I enjoyed the first two books, but I didn't really fall in love with the series until PoA, so I do think you're missing out by stopping where you have. Besides, they're fun! They're absorbing and distracting! Who couldn't use a little of that right now? ;)

*loves*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*laughs at your icon*
honestly, that's a wackt picture of him. i mean... he's so... gryffindor in it. it's disturbing, almost. *laughs* "yes. oh yes. i am a holy avenger. why? you've got a problem with that?"~:)

*sighs* but yah, he initial issue was whether one could make characterization critique without "knowing canon". which i do, sometimes. make characterization critique, i mean. i think cassie et al said yes, you can always comment on style and flow and "the story as a story", but how could you comment on in-characterness. that was the er. story.

heh. but er, thanks~:) <3

[penelope-z.livejournal.com]

Well I don't know if you read my entry on the topic, but I believe that one can definitely enjoy fanfic without liking or knowing the fnadom. But you can't analyse it or criticise it appropriately. There will always be parts missing and things you won't understand. I don't even get involved in SV meta talks cause I feel my canon knowledge is lacking, even though I've seen 80% of the episodes. So just read the bloody books. They're nice, I promise.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heh. i did read your entry (even referenced it twice in this post). well... and as far as there being parts missing-- doesn't most human opinion fail to consider the totality of something? admittedly, this way you're forcing this, but in general, merely having part of the picture doesn't -necessarily- invalidate what conclusions you may draw from it-- depending on the nature of the questions posed, and on your ability to synthesize, as well as the overall reflectiveness within the work-- ie, repeated themes, heavy archetypal intersections, strength of the relationship to other works.

i haven't found things i didn't understand-- and i was able to pass okay with people who have read everything. i'm not saying i won't read it (i will, really-- really!), i'm just saying there is something to the fact that it was -possible- to discuss it anyway, without all sorts of obvious errors being made.

as far as smallville-- i found it possible to talk about the broad archetypal forces behind clark, seeing a few (15 or so) episodes, responding to thamiris, mostly. that is, we were able to have coherent interchanges. of course, thamiris has a particular style and thematic flavor to her meta which agrees with me. also, knowing superman canon in general story terms definitely helps one if you want to discuss clark-as-superman and as hero. but i'm just saying, i did find i had something to say-- and thamiris thought i had something to say. and that's all that matters, right? in that case, anyway-- the ability to have coherent dialogue.

i mean-- i may be slightly off or i may be heavily off, but so may someone who -has- complete familiarity. the fact that i could say -something- and just not -everything- i could possibly say were i to totalize my possible knowledge, doesn't mean it's not worth it to say that something. does that make sense?

one can talk coherently about lots of topics with having only a partial knowledge, merely using one's general intelligence and familiarity with the larger themes, as well as what facts one does know-- and the facts accumulate over time and are easily spotted.

not that this is an important argument (since the thrust of what everyone is telling me remains the same, ie, "just read them"), but i felt it's important enough to mention ~:)