speaking of small owls... or not.

[reenka]

A) Man oh man, I love Harlan Ellison <333333333 Can we please save our offense for the people who are actually lamebrained assholes instead of brilliant (if immature/obnoxious/perverted) old men? No? :/ Ahhh, that one's never going to go over well with some people, I know.... Still. I mean, a lapse of proper behavior in public isn't the same thing as being a bad person... god, I really wish I could stop arguing this point :/ :/ (Can you tell why I started out being a Draco Malfoy fan?? No? *snorts* I wonder if the people who become/are Draco fans these days don't think 'obnoxious asshole' is a really good description of him... sometimes I wonder.) But yeah, Harlan is SO the Draco Malfoy of the professional fantasy writers biz :> I bet Draco would grope Hermione's breast if the occasion arose and be like, 'well, she can take it', ahahaha, oh, they're brothers in lamitude <3333

    EDIT - Disclaimer: I'm only talking about the personal, psychological ramifications & issues, not trying to imply anything about 'proper' social response or standards.
    
    Well, the kerfuffle's probably 'cause most people value the behavior itself over motivation/subtleties of context... but it's gotten to the point where my mom tells me 'I think you're a good person' and I said, 'why?' So she says it's because I'm honest (and I laughed) and then she clarified 'honest about the things that matter', and I raised an eyebrow. Finally, she said 'you've got a sense of honor-- modified for you', ahaha & that I'm not a mean person. So I was like 'are mean people bad?' and she said yes. This exchange is so funny to me 'cause I had a 'MEAN PEOPLE SUCK' sticker I was very proud of when I was 20 or something; I still think mean people suck, but I also think that since more than half the world's population doesn't know 'mean/truly cruel' from 'harmlessly obnoxious' or even 'impolite'(!!!), I'll just go around defending mean people.... *sigh*
    I should really shut up about this topic; I realize how repetitive I am :/ It just really HURTS MY BRAIN that people don't get that impolite/obnoxious != mean evil bastard. This is not advanced ethics, is it? :O

...Although I think the question of 'can a mean person still be a Good person?' is an interesting one. Cruelty/sadism is one of the true... uh... negative qualities that exist, and perhaps the only truly bad quality as far as I'm concerned (though extreme self-centeredness and desire to control/subjugate others tie in), but. I think too many people think verbal obnoxiousness is the same thing (ethically) as the actual biggie (which is wanton cruelty itself). Granted, it's a sign of insensitivity, but there can be a range there, I hope :/
    If people are being funny, even if they're not funny at all, by definition they're not in the same ballpark as someone who's just cruel. Secondly, true cruelty depends on knowing who you're being cruel to and how they'll react; a truly cruel person picks on someone they know is vulnerable and sensitive (or submissive/can't fight back/born victim). It's merely an obnoxious/rude/wanky person who picks on someone they consider either tough or an equal, or someone who's not there and will never hear of it. There's also a third type of meanie who picks on people they truly think are mean/bad/wrong (but not 'stupid' or 'ugly', because there's no possible even skewed moral justification there)-- I'd say they're just badass or 'tough', like a vigilante/judge stereotype. (Ahh, Gryffindors, ahahahahah...ha.) Anyway, these three types are seriously different in terms of ethics and the best way to deal with them, I think.

For instance: people have told me that I seem v. sensitive to them & they think of themselves as mean enough (but in control enough) that they -could- say/do things to really hurt me but they don't 'cause we're friends. I'm sorry, but these people don't know me well enough~:) I don't think you can just hurt someone like that if they haven't got the mentality of a victim (ie, caring what people think, unaware of their flaws/issues, unself-confident about their strength or ability to fight back or succeed). I'm not 'out there' as being a toughass, and in fact I'm pretty (sometimes extremely) sensitive about what people say to me, but... I'm also extremely self-aware. There's literally nothing you can do/say to me about myself that 1) I'm unaware of; 2) I don't have faith I can work through eventually, given this exchange doesn't involve violence (well, violence would take a lot longer to deal with, since I'm least confident physically). So just as there are predators, there are victims-- one sort of allows/forms the existence of the other; therefore, not being a victim, it would be very difficult for a predator to gain mental access to me no matter how 'mean' or 'bad' he/she was.

Anyway, people who're just obnoxious and like to mouth off or do jackass-type things for a laugh aren't predators, pure & simple. They're more like hyenas, I guess-- well, there's a range from seagull or crow-type scavengers to hyenas, maybe :D There's a huge difference in nature between a crow and a hawk, say-- though human beings who have power & like to use it are often a lot more mentally unbalanced than hawks. I mean, hawks are a natural part of the ecosystem in which they exist in the same way mice are-- but human beings who have those sorts of dominant/cruel natures tend not to know their place. (Btw, if I had to be a bird of some kind, I'm probably a small owl-- I mean, I could always go for fresh meat, but mostly I don't make a big fuss and go with nice easy insects.) Um. Okay, that was a tangent -.-
~~

B) Man, it is beyond rare these days that I come across something that makes me really feel like an HP fan (in terms of fic or art or whatever)... but the funny thing is, I really am, actually. The last time I felt it before recently was when I saw Platform 9¾ (or the stretch of wall at King's Cross that has part of a trolley attached, whichever). Man, that was ace. Yesterday, I was sort of happy reading JKR's old post-HBP interview (which my deluded brain found slashily inspiring), and then furiosity's 'The Revenant' had an adorable Draco. I wish this sort of 'ooooh, DRACO IS SO CUTE' thing happened to me more often... I remember when I read hackthis & Silvia & had that squeeing gurgle of adoration every time. (Ahahaha, I was so lame I used to read angsty obscure stuff like Jay's 'Disarm' & squee too. Well, okay, I used to squee at everything. :/ What. :/ Um.)

Aaaaanyway, I had a point and here it is: I was looking at the Swedish HP book covers at The Leaky today, and ooooh! *commence sparkly-eyed cooing* I love the OoTP one, but what I REALLY love is the HBP one <3333333333 I AM SO FULL OF TEH HBP!HARRY LOFF <3333333 That Harry is my Harry, wah <3. I wanna cuddle-wuddle him and call him Geooorge... um. So yeah. HBP! LOVE! :> Man, I really wish they sold these as posters... *weepz*

C) I've been on a kick for m/m/f (uh, pr0n) past few days, and woefully I don't like either Hermione/Harry/Draco nor (really) Harry/Ron/Hermione (and things like Sirius/James/Lily or Sirius/Remus/Tonks are actually a squick), so in terms of HP, I'm totally stuck. I sort of want to request Harry/Draco/Ginny on one of those request challenge comms, but I'm pretty sure no one would bother writing it really in character (... if that can even be done, which it probably can't without an epic, and even I don't want to read 300p for porn).
    Still, I'm vaguely inspired to write lots of 'normal' boysmex from seeing a bunch of nekkid boy pics ♥. The thing I really like is how many are smiling or being cute & playful. Most pics with girls have this 'artificially slutty' quality to the playfulness... I dunno. Like, the boys are a lot more unself-conscious & 'natural' than most girls of the same age-range I've seen, which is awesome <3. So I had this mental process where 'playful gay boys' naturally progressed to 'playful bi boys', just to up the shameless slut factor, ahahah (plus my Harry remains mostly straight this way) :D

Also, I really like this article saying it makes more sense to separate romantic & sexual bisexuality rather than just saying 'if it's not romantic, it's not bisexual' the way people do. I also like the idea that 80% of guys are bisexual but heteroromantic & homoplatonic, hahaha. It seems to bear out what I've observed, and leaves room for slash-- I mean, they could have tons of very deeply platonic sex, I don't mind!! :D

D) Sometime asked me why I'm so verbose recently. I'm like, "..... GOOD QUESTION". -.-;;

Comments

real people

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, worldserpent has said (v. eloquently) much of what I would say, so you probably get the gist. I was writing pages and I just had to basically respond to every sentence and it just seemed not worth it. And (since I've met you and think I know you a little), I was pretty sure you didn't mean to send the emotional message that it felt (to me) like this post sent.

But if you want to imagine a possible gut emotional response to this post though... forget about general ideals and greater social problems and imagine it more personally. I've told you Mr.X (really smart!) groped me (or some friend of yours) when it wasn't wanted (if it matters, the gropee is smart as well, and some would say even smarter than the groper). I then read a post about "Man oh man, I love Mr.X <333333333 Can we please save our offense for the people who are actually lamebrained assholes instead of brilliant (if immature/obnoxious/perverted) old men?"

Yeah, I've overpersonalized it with the "me or a friend," but I actually know some oldskool SF types and am only a few degrees of separation away from these people. My point isn't that you'd be annoyed if you were psersonally involved (that was just to heighten the emotional kick), but that these are *REAL* people, not symbolic representations in some greater truth. They are not like Draco Malfoy who is a fictional character (and younger and not entirely matured, but anyway), who can be symbolic and meaningful about real issues, but, no matter what, whose badboy behavior I can enjoy because he's not real and any oogy stuff he does won't hurt anyone real.

And, yeah, Harlan Ellison is being used in some arguments as a symbol of "men are pigs," but... he has a certain reputation that he has earned for himself over decades. He really is close in this way to embodying the stereotype that pisses many people off. But even forgetting that symbolism and the greater social ills, people can still be annoyed with this incident by just focusing on the people. People who have known him for years will easily say, "yes, he is a 'lamebrained asshole'." He's *also* a "brilliant (if immature/obnoxious/perverted) old man," (who can be sweet if the mood strikes him), but which do you care about more if you're trying to personally interact or work with him?

And also a big no to: "Well, the kerfuffle's probably 'cause most people value the behavior itself over motivation/subtleties of context..." I cannot even imagine what context you are thinking of. It feels like you are making all sorts of strange apologetics ("he's brilliant, so it's ok if he acts like a jerk" "he can't help it" "there are worse people out there" "it's Society that's to blame") for this guy because you think he's cute and talented, and the people who are annoyed with his by-any-rulebook-wrong-behavior and remembering similar incidents and being annoyed over them are just wasting their offense and overreacting. It creepily mirrors patronizing tones of "these little women shouldn't get all bent out of shape over the amusing faux pas of this great man." And I'm pretty sure that is not what you were going for.

Sure, he's not clubbing baby seals and omg eval, and there are definitely other people who are worse and deserve meaner rantings, but no one's talking prison, just social condemnation for a social wrong. Some rantings on livejournals don't seem like an overreaction to me--that would be pitchforks or something.

I've heard from my mom what things were like for women, even in just the 70s... If there's an "over-reaction" any way, I prefer this one. I'm glad it's no longer that people let his behavior slide since he's big and important and "boys will be boys" and the idea that women=full humans is not a given at all.

*facepalm*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think there's definitely some personal overreaction on my part involved (which is why I locked it), going back to me & how I've reacted to any kind of mass condemnation of obnoxious people/assholes in fandom-- not just characters, I mean real people, whether or not I know them. I just generally... have a history of taking the mean person's side that I can get carried away with 'cause usually the people talking about 'correct behavior' and 'being nice' are just so overwhelmingly judgmental-seeming and harsh in another way. So whereas I'd rather no one was an asshole, I myself prefer people to be straight-up about it and not make it a huge moral generalized issue with martyrs and 'nice' people and 'mean' people.

Anyway, I definitely was thinking of fandom rather than the actual people involved-- whom I'd never imagine quibbling with no matter what emotional reaction they had. Any natural emotional reaction is justified insofar as that goes-- and my thing about 'you don't have to feel a victim' helps, I think, though it's the second step-- the first is admitting you were done wrong to, not being silent. First you're letting go of guilt/shame, then you're letting go of the need for revenge/etc/whatever's tying you to the offender's mentality in that tight circle of reaction->counterreaction. Most people aren't done with step one, I guess.

In other words, I didn't think I had to -say- it, but-- I'd never justify anyone's assholish actions-- my point was to understand/remove yourself/transcend or take the next step, beyond the knee-jerk anger to conciliation/understanding/empathy & progress. In practical terms, that just means I'd say 'I wish you didn't just sit there! slug him! hell, I would've slapped him for you if I was there!' y'know? If it was personal, that's what I'd say-- fight back. Because Connie seemed not to need that reaction, I wasn't outraged in the same way. But yeah, this was just... not aimed at people involved but at watchers like the sidelines like myself, heckling without a second thought and making big moral put-downs without much apparent perspective.

I -do- feel pretty ridiculous/stupid for writing all this 'cause I don't think it was my most eloquent of days, but then for most of it I was really on a tangent. None of it meant to excuse, mind you, so much as classify without passing judgment. So in the vacuum that is my lack of judgment, it's only natural for people to assume whatever they feel emotionally/intuitively closest, I know. It's often given me headaches trying to imagine things from that direction, which is why I often don't think about my audience at all ^^;;;;; I -am- sorry about that! :S

As for 'the context'... I meant it would take a lot more for me to think someone deserves 'widescale social condemnation', and perhaps no one person can ever deserve that because I can't help but see people in terms of the social/historic forces that allow them to gain power/become vocal. You can't just blame Bush alone, that sort of thing. The context for me is that he's offensive, sure, but not... ethically important or representative enough for being 'a symbol', maybe? Because he's an older generation (and therefore outdated mores), because he's just an overall asshole (and therefore it's not just this one issue that's in relief) and because he's intelligent (and therefore a more sensitive/nuanced conversation would be fruitful moreso than with a lamebrained/dumb person).

But most importantly, these aren't excuses to avoid 'justice'; more thoughts in the search for understanding/compassion. ^^;

Re: *facepalm* back atcha

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Man, finally, I get back to a computer again. ...and you've prob forgotten all about this post, but anyway...

I just generally... have a history of taking the mean person's side that I can get carried away with 'cause usually the people talking about 'correct behavior' and 'being nice' are just so overwhelmingly judgmental-seeming and harsh in another way. So whereas I'd rather no one was an asshole, I myself prefer people to be straight-up about it and not make it a huge moral generalized issue with martyrs and 'nice' people and 'mean' people.


Yeah, ironically, I was judging your judging of the people for their judginess, so, vicious circle etc etc, and I really can't be all annoyed without being a hypocrite I'm pretty sure. I'm still kinda stuck on the "why is his lameness so much more forgivable and deserving of the understanding/compassion than theirs," but I think this comes down to basic emotional value gut reaction, and we'll all end up agreeing on the facts, but still end up weighing them differently.

(random tangential thought here: wondering here why in stories writers always seem to think being a hypocrite is like the worst sin ever. I see that it's not a strength or anything, but I don't see it as the horrible deformation of character it seems to be presented as in most fiction. Insights appreciated.)

Also: sorry if I had an annoyingly snippy tone there. I know we come from diff emotional places usually (which is good for the expanding of the mind and whatnot), so, you know, please bear with me as I try to remain intellectually/emotionally honest and I hope you don't ever really don't ever feel like you need to worry for saying your opinion anyway you want in your own lj in your own freakin' locked posts (not like I think you seriously would, but in case...), even if they hurt my delicate sensibilities, and we disagree etc etc. (Though, you know, thanks for caring enough to be sorry for its impact as well.<--omg am such a girl. gragh.)

I had some carefully crafted arguments about things at one point, but now I'm more like at the level of calling Draco and Harlan pathetic lamers.