[more on reading & the identity wars]
Jan. 14th, 2007 12:11 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaApparently there's a misogyny/we-need-more-strong-females debate in fandom -again-, and an offshoot about identification specifically & who we've found ourselves identifying with in stories, growing up & such. Um. Some say men, some say women... I say... uh... the pov character :)) Haha, seriously, I mean, yeah-- I particularly enjoyed & bonded with a girl I particularly liked or identified with the attitudes & emotions of, and maybe I'd be a little more attracted rather than just identifying with a boy I liked & identified with the attitudes of-- but I can still guarantee you I'll care and fixate more on the pov character, even if the other (female or male) one is more on my wavelength. I particularly do enjoy when a main/pov character is heavily on my wavelength (like Bastian in 'The Neverending Story', for instance, if we're going for gratuitous over-similarity), but maaaan, wouldn't it get old to always be stuck with the same preferred fictional self/personality/body? So it was long ago that I learned to umm, 'play pretend', and try on other characteristics/beliefs for the duration of my reading.
This whole idea of keeping yourself and your day-to-day identity fully intact while reading is a bit alien to me, actually, as a fantasy/romance reader. It's like... I wouldn't necessarily say I read for escape, but I do read for exploration and wonder and experiences I wouldn't otherwise have; I love to be grounded and connected emotionally within the story, to -care-, but there are lots of different bodies and mindsets a good writer can connect you to as the reader. It's like, whether you 'naturally' gravitate towards male characters or female characters, you're still a basically different type of reader, I guess; or maybe it's just that I think everyone may look for someone that's their 'reflection' in a story (color, gender, personality), but to me that 'reflection' is more to do with what I think of as my 'self'-- not my gender or color or even the beliefs I have but my deepest emotional resonances. Hmm. I guess I can't imagine reading about a boy having fun adventures and thinking, 'but I can't, because I'm a girl' o_0 That would... never have occurred to me as a child. Of course I could do anything I wanted (...um, maybe you could say I was a spoiled only child) :D
So like, yeah, a lot of people say they gravitated to boys in stories 'cause it's boys that did the fun things & had the adventures (implying girls didn't), while I suppose those that gravitated to girls accepted their roles in society & wanted them validated(?) Or conversely didn't accept their roles & wanted to read stuff that supported their choice to be badass and independent. Or something.
And first of all, doesn't that reeeeeally depend on what you read? Even in (especially in?) the fairy-tales of my childhood, about a third of them had the girl saving the boy or going on the quest. And in grown-up sci-fi/fantasy, unless you read those super-epics the boys prefer (Dune?? Ender's Game??), I'd actually say I'm biased in the other direction since I read so many women writers with girl protagonists who kicked much supernatural ass :D And when it was a boy (like in Joan D. Vinge's Cat series), let's face it, it was often a satisfyingly emo boy :D Like I said, it's really about what you read, and I just generally don't -read- stuff that'd bother my inner feminist by sheer instinct. Besides, there's literally tons of women who have adventures or have male roles thrust upon them in fantasy lit.
Secondly, I guess it's not so important to me what a character does or what their role is in their society-- I mean, I like underdogs, but that's a role in the narrative, 'cause you could have an underdog prince. Like, I can appreciate a really cool occupation (superheroes are fun, so are scientists and assassins and pirates) but... it's really up to the writer to make a role or activity interesting to me. I mean, I've read traditional romances where the woman just wanted to marry and have kids, but she was an interesting woman-- and that same woman would annoy me in the hands of a bad writer. Same with superheroes. I love the idea of 'superhero', but the way most comics portray it (repetitively, on a surface level, conservatively) just leaves me going 'meh'. And need I mention the oodles of badfic about assassins and pirates??
I was thinking about the comparison in that post by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
wemblee about identifying with Maid Marian vs. Robin Hood-- and obviously Robin had the better gig. I mean, basically Marian just sat there & waited, right...? But here's where the writing comes in, 'cause there's this awesome novel by Jennifer Roberson called 'Lady of the Forest', which retells the same old Robin Hood story from Maid Marian's pov. (Though I read it more than 10 years ago, when it first came out, and according to other readers on Amazon it is, of course, horrible & the Marian a pathetic loser, so.) Going on what I remember thinking back then, it doesn't make Marian any 'cooler' or more important-- it just makes her an interesting character with her own strength. Every role can be an interesting role, basically, with its own adventures, its own intensity and courage and dignity, but especially any male-dominated story told from the female pov. But then, this would go for a female-dominated story told from a male pov as well.
Regardless of that book's merits, though, my point is that I always felt like the point of good stories is to mess with our preconceptions. Having plot/character-kinks and looking to fulfill them is valid too, of course, but this can actually coexist with being surprised or there being unexpected elements too. I hope.
Anyway, um, I can't imagine tallying up the number of requisite elements in an original fic (strong women? check. short guys with blond hair? check. evil overlords with nice accents?? DOUBLE CHECK). Fanfic, yeah: you're automatically going to compare it to something, fanon if not canon. But for me, there's really a limit to the meta info I can stand having in my head while I read unless the story is directly annoying me (like it's badly-written or just stupid somehow).
And the whole idea that who you identify with has anything to do with being a feminist(!!) sort of boggles my mind. Like, I'm definitely a feminist, yeah, because I care about women's issues & I think patriarchal oppression sucks & equality is the way to go, but-- what does this have to do with what sort of characters I like in fics? I mean, I like strong female characters, sure, because they're cool, not because they're feminist. Like, okay, I adore Tank Girl, for instance. But it's not like I love her 'cause it's the feminist thing to do or something. I don't like Wonder Woman as much; so what?
I think being feminist also means you can enjoy whatever the hell you want, be whatever kind of woman you want, and it's not going to make you 'less womanly' or less hardcore because RAWR! You are woman! You define it, it doesn't define you. So if you're a woman who identifies with badass guys? More power to you! And if you're a woman who identifies with Anne of Green Gables? You are also awesome. And feminist. Me, I'm a woman who identifies with emo freaks, but whatcha gonna do, right?
This whole idea of keeping yourself and your day-to-day identity fully intact while reading is a bit alien to me, actually, as a fantasy/romance reader. It's like... I wouldn't necessarily say I read for escape, but I do read for exploration and wonder and experiences I wouldn't otherwise have; I love to be grounded and connected emotionally within the story, to -care-, but there are lots of different bodies and mindsets a good writer can connect you to as the reader. It's like, whether you 'naturally' gravitate towards male characters or female characters, you're still a basically different type of reader, I guess; or maybe it's just that I think everyone may look for someone that's their 'reflection' in a story (color, gender, personality), but to me that 'reflection' is more to do with what I think of as my 'self'-- not my gender or color or even the beliefs I have but my deepest emotional resonances. Hmm. I guess I can't imagine reading about a boy having fun adventures and thinking, 'but I can't, because I'm a girl' o_0 That would... never have occurred to me as a child. Of course I could do anything I wanted (...um, maybe you could say I was a spoiled only child) :D
So like, yeah, a lot of people say they gravitated to boys in stories 'cause it's boys that did the fun things & had the adventures (implying girls didn't), while I suppose those that gravitated to girls accepted their roles in society & wanted them validated(?) Or conversely didn't accept their roles & wanted to read stuff that supported their choice to be badass and independent. Or something.
And first of all, doesn't that reeeeeally depend on what you read? Even in (especially in?) the fairy-tales of my childhood, about a third of them had the girl saving the boy or going on the quest. And in grown-up sci-fi/fantasy, unless you read those super-epics the boys prefer (Dune?? Ender's Game??), I'd actually say I'm biased in the other direction since I read so many women writers with girl protagonists who kicked much supernatural ass :D And when it was a boy (like in Joan D. Vinge's Cat series), let's face it, it was often a satisfyingly emo boy :D Like I said, it's really about what you read, and I just generally don't -read- stuff that'd bother my inner feminist by sheer instinct. Besides, there's literally tons of women who have adventures or have male roles thrust upon them in fantasy lit.
Secondly, I guess it's not so important to me what a character does or what their role is in their society-- I mean, I like underdogs, but that's a role in the narrative, 'cause you could have an underdog prince. Like, I can appreciate a really cool occupation (superheroes are fun, so are scientists and assassins and pirates) but... it's really up to the writer to make a role or activity interesting to me. I mean, I've read traditional romances where the woman just wanted to marry and have kids, but she was an interesting woman-- and that same woman would annoy me in the hands of a bad writer. Same with superheroes. I love the idea of 'superhero', but the way most comics portray it (repetitively, on a surface level, conservatively) just leaves me going 'meh'. And need I mention the oodles of badfic about assassins and pirates??
I was thinking about the comparison in that post by
wemblee about identifying with Maid Marian vs. Robin Hood-- and obviously Robin had the better gig. I mean, basically Marian just sat there & waited, right...? But here's where the writing comes in, 'cause there's this awesome novel by Jennifer Roberson called 'Lady of the Forest', which retells the same old Robin Hood story from Maid Marian's pov. (Though I read it more than 10 years ago, when it first came out, and according to other readers on Amazon it is, of course, horrible & the Marian a pathetic loser, so.) Going on what I remember thinking back then, it doesn't make Marian any 'cooler' or more important-- it just makes her an interesting character with her own strength. Every role can be an interesting role, basically, with its own adventures, its own intensity and courage and dignity, but especially any male-dominated story told from the female pov. But then, this would go for a female-dominated story told from a male pov as well.Regardless of that book's merits, though, my point is that I always felt like the point of good stories is to mess with our preconceptions. Having plot/character-kinks and looking to fulfill them is valid too, of course, but this can actually coexist with being surprised or there being unexpected elements too. I hope.
Anyway, um, I can't imagine tallying up the number of requisite elements in an original fic (strong women? check. short guys with blond hair? check. evil overlords with nice accents?? DOUBLE CHECK). Fanfic, yeah: you're automatically going to compare it to something, fanon if not canon. But for me, there's really a limit to the meta info I can stand having in my head while I read unless the story is directly annoying me (like it's badly-written or just stupid somehow).
And the whole idea that who you identify with has anything to do with being a feminist(!!) sort of boggles my mind. Like, I'm definitely a feminist, yeah, because I care about women's issues & I think patriarchal oppression sucks & equality is the way to go, but-- what does this have to do with what sort of characters I like in fics? I mean, I like strong female characters, sure, because they're cool, not because they're feminist. Like, okay, I adore Tank Girl, for instance. But it's not like I love her 'cause it's the feminist thing to do or something. I don't like Wonder Woman as much; so what?
I think being feminist also means you can enjoy whatever the hell you want, be whatever kind of woman you want, and it's not going to make you 'less womanly' or less hardcore because RAWR! You are woman! You define it, it doesn't define you. So if you're a woman who identifies with badass guys? More power to you! And if you're a woman who identifies with Anne of Green Gables? You are also awesome. And feminist. Me, I'm a woman who identifies with emo freaks, but whatcha gonna do, right?
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no subject
Date: 2007-01-15 10:54 am (UTC)My favorite writers definitely take me inside the character... it just feels lonely and cold being too objective, but I suspect that's my personality type breaking through :> Maybe other sorts of readers would be more comfortable with that analytical distance, or they'd -always- feel a person is 'just bizarre' and could never reach the 'fucked up, wow!' thing only later on after being carried away. Like, that seems something connected with how given you are to empathizing with fictional characters in the first place (unless you automatically understand their type).
People do project onto characters though, in order to understand them better-- it's not like they quite think they must've been like that so much as they can't really put themselves in that headspace otherwise, maybe? Plus it's a lot more difficult to write from the pov of a really alien cultural mindset, so most writers aren't good enough :> I don't even go so far as to judge 'strong female' vs 'weak female'-- I just go by whether I think a girl character type is cool or I like her, and it's incidental that I happen to like more feisty, badass girls so I'll generally like strong females (and just naturally dislike/get bored by characters who're not v. willful or headstrong, regardless of era, though it's not as if I -blame- them-- I just don't particularly admire them, but then I don't admire 99% of human beings) :> But the mindset that people are looking for some token strength to fit their principles is just too alien to me, y'know?