[why psychopaths can love & other fictions]

[reenka]

Obviously I don't know when to give up & go to sleep, 'cause I skimmed yet -more- essays/arguments in mannazone ('The Administration' comm) & I don't want to go into specifics, but it made me think about authorial intent in a slightly different way.
    The thing is, really, that it's a double-edged sword, isn't it? What I mean is, it is both necessary to understanding (illuminating?) some basic plot-points or developments when utilized in key/minimum amounts and completely poisonous when used to explain away a reader's genuine reactions to what actually did happen. Like, you can use a known case of 'intent' to debunk what I'd call a 'transformative theory'-- one that takes canon and makes it a metaphor for something else, some external symbology. A good example of this is the things Harry/Hermione shippers found in book 3 to support canon H/Hr: those things were just contrary to the point of the given scenes, and you can call upon authorial intent as support of this argument. However, you can only use it to disprove actual conclusions from specific incidents: you can't disprove subtext or ambiguous cues (whether used for H/Hr, Sirius/Remus or even Harry/Draco subtext).

In other words, you can't say 'seeing' Sirius/Remus isn't a valid emotional response to canon cues; you -can- say it's not actually canon. Does that make sense?

Somehow this seems even more important when the author is actually there to argue with you; when they get involved and interact with fandom.
    
There's a limit there-- you can say what you intended (as the writer), but you can't dictate beyond what the writing itself shows. If, in fact, the writing didn't follow your precise outlined ideas (the meta!story in the writer's head), then it may be bad writing, or it may be the nature of writing itself, but it's not like the meta!story therefore overwrites the actual story experienced by a given reader.

A big part of this is simply a game of definitions; when it comes to talking about a character's emotions especially, we're walking on extremely shaky ground. One person's 'love' isn't another person's 'love'; what the writer may see as 'unacceptable' and 'indicative of moral failure' (or a diagnosable psychiatric disorder), the reader may see as 'tragic' and indicative of a wounded heart that needs healing. Also, what's 'obviously just a sexual thing' for the writer -and- a reader must necessarily be overridden if it's not for the characters as they perceive themselves. Is the reader wrong & the writer right? Vice versa?
    The answer has to be "neither", of course: regarding their own emotions, the character is right (and sometimes, if it's ambiguous and/or the character's confused, there is simply no answer). You cannot dictate meta-questions of a story's reality-- the sort of stuff that in actual reality, people would argue about because it's subjective. (Ie, 'did he really love her?'-- what possible consensus could there be in any situation like this? He did if he thinks he did, period; he did if he acts like he did also, to a large extent, yes, but then this is in the realm of 'reader's perception of subtext'.)

I'm especially impatient with any attempt by the author to project into a future they hadn't actually written; I won't accept 'he feels like X' or 'X is likely to happen' if this hasn't been shown yet. This is simply ridiculous-- the writer doesn't own every possible permutation of the future for the characters in their universe! I'm sure this is actually why some writers hate fanfic, because they think if they stop people from writing it, they'll actually stop them from thinking it. Uh-uh, no go. People perceive half-formed futures as soon as they have their idiosyncratic reactions to a given character's actions/emotions/etc; in terms of unstated consequences, a given reader will believe what makes sense to them based on life experience-- and this is a necessary part of reading, of bonding with fiction. It is that bit of self-projection that draws one into the world & the characters, that tugs them ever so slightly out of the author's head and into the reader's!

My issue, really, is that I'm perfectly happy with ambiguity. I love it that I can't really -know- that Brian's in love with Justin in QaF (though I think he is, in his own way) or whether Toreth 'more than just needs' Warrick (though I think he does, in his own way). Both of these are self-centered bastards with long-suffering caring boyfriends, and I admit there may be -some- wish-fulfillment in my wanting to look at the bright side as a reader-- but in both cases the romance becomes flat and utterly boring if you categorically answer 'no' (as the writers have in both instances, though the circumstances aren't the same).

What I'm trying to say is, 'Authorial Intent' is useful for understanding, but it cannot-- should not-- attempt to penetrate a reader's heart. In theory, I can accept 'this isn't love'-- objectively, things remain ambiguous. In terms of my own reaction, though, there is no ambiguity-- the bells ring, the numbers add up, my alarms go off-- bingo! I can shout it from the rooftops! I embrace subjectivity, since as a reader, it's become my story and in a very real sense these are my characters 'cause they also live in my head, so. This doesn't mean 'in my head', Draco Malfoy 'really' turns into this svelte angel who wears leather pants (or someone who's about to whisper sweet nothings anytime soon)-- y'know, because he's just... not like that. However, yes, my Draco Malfoy can be obsessed and in denial; my Toreth can be also. Yes. Oh yes. I can make this work with canon, okay.

So bite it. HE'S IN LOVE. :P

Comments

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Erm! For the record, CowLip never said Brian wasn't in love with Justin - in fact they said he was. It was something to the effect of, Brian is in love with Justin, but... etc etc that you already know.

And I am totally in favor of a writer dictating the future beyond what's written, which is probably not surprising, coming from me, and I totally reject subjectivity on every level I possibly can. But then, I've really really really never liked deconstruction.

Sooo yeah, we're really coming from opposite ends of the spectrum on this subject, but I will say I think there's a difference between dictating fact and dictating emotional response. Going to HP for a second, I think it's totally within JKR's rights to say that, for example, Fred and George are good-hearted and mean no real harm/are just having fun. It isn't, however, within her rights to say therefore the reader must think of them as good people - she can say what THEY are thinking, but that doesn't reflect back on what the READER thinks of them/what they're thinking.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha I don't know if we're necessarily coming from opposite ends so much as I was really pissed to see it outright stated that one is 'supposed' to or should understand somehow that of course Toreth is only pretending to care for Warrick. I mean, okay, this is how he acts and this is his thought processes as they are shown in the fic and this is how -Warrick- feels... but somehow the important thing is that he's just acting that way to 'keep' Warrick because that was the true intent???? ARG. NO. -.-;

It also seems like what's 'emotional reaction' and what's 'fact' can sometimes get muddled when we're talking about a character's emotions, especially if the character's emotions are ambiguous or non-standard-- I guess that's what I meant.

Hehe generally I just want to keep subjectivity -separate- from objectivity-- it's like, they're useful for different things? Or something. They shouldn't really interfere. Anyway, that's why I said the circumstances aren't the same-- obv. CowLip didn't say that, but they said stuff like it wasn't 'true love' or what have you-- some stuff that edges into ambiguous audience-response things. I mean, I'd rather there was no comment/guidance on things of emotional nature at all, one way or the other. ^^;

Also, with 'The Administration', it's different to HP or QaF on a major level-- it really IS (an 'original slash') love story already, y'know, and it's about these two people & their relationship and their world, full stop. So the whole question of how you're suppose to perceive/interpret that relationship & what it means in the future/in general for them-- that CANNOT be dictated by authorial intent. That roominess and ambiguity is the very heart of the romance-- to pin it down into objectivity and a diagnosis for Toreth (ie, he's a sociopath 'incapable of love') would and does go a long way towards destroying the balance that makes the story work.

So while I don't embrace subjectivity in general-- neither can I embrace objectivity in all cases, especially in art, especially in the emotional aspects of it. How can you even -be- objective about this sort of thing, is my point. How can you look at a flower or a feeling, etc, and pin it down to a certain singular definition? Sure, you can approach a definition, but... it'll be like a lossy file format. The more you say 'this is what it is, period', the more you'll get further away from the emotional truth behind it, or something.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

I can't really comment on that, just because I haven't read the series and all, but I will say that I would totally embrace an author telling me that very thing.Tooootally.

I have to admit I totally don't at all see how that's edging into ambiguous audience response things, which may be because I don't really believe in ambiguous audience response things. Whiiiich is why i said opposite ends.

I'm not going to comment on the Administration thing, though. ...yea. I'm really tired. O_O

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

See... it's like... I think my problem in this case is that I think it becomes a lesser story if you nail it down like that-- less interesting, certainly. Besides that, I don't think on a certain level it -matters- whether this is what's supposed to be happening, because what -is- happening on a surface level is still in some ways more important? Like, I don't even know if that level of meta should be able to overwrite what's really going on in the story. I mean, if you want to write that story, write that story. But she didn't. So there's actually a conflict between what she says & what's there. Eh. -.-;

I'm not sure what you mean by 'not believing'! Um. All it means is that people interpret the exact same situation differently-- in terms of emotions, people's experiences/cultural references/beliefs tend to color their understanding of 'what does it mean when...' for instance, a straight man hugs another straight man, like with the S/R example in PoA. It didn't read slashy to me, but I accept it could to others. If JKR came out tomorrow to say she totally in no way meant that, it might matter to someone who thought she really did, but not to me, 'cause all I'm saying is it's okay to respond to it that way as long as you don't say 'that's what's in the text'.

It's just a basic thing of 'this is what this means to me'. I think in stories, the objective level isn't necessarily the most reach in meaning, y'know? I mean, I may accept certain things about the story, accept authorial intent, but at a certain point, if you enough things that narrow down a story's meaning, it's like... 'so what?' It becomes flattened... less of a living story and more of a dry factual narrative like a recitation of a crime incident or something. Like, hopefully it's not either/or and there's some middle ground here, of course :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

It's totally difficult to comment because, oooobviously I haven't read it, so I mean, I can really only comment on the generalities. But I guess it's just that I like having things nailed down. To me, that makes things *more* interesting, because then I know it's *right*, and I'm more interested in accuracy than personal/subjective experiences, even mine. I mean, I am pretty hardcore that way, as you know.

(And, honestly, when people say things like "there's a conflict between what s/he wrote and what s/he said, and if s/he wanted to write that story s/he should have, but s/he didn't" I tend to get a little jasbdkjabdkad because s/he probably did, you just aren't experiencing it as s/he intended, which is completely different than s/he not writing what s/he meant to write.)

What I mean about 'not believing' - I was totally half-asleep when I wrote that, so like 'not believing' is not the right term but I just mean that while everyone does interpret things differently, I don't see that as a great thing. I mean, I wouldn't want to preserve it. To me it's an unfortunate flaw resulting from the differences in person-to-person perspective and experiences.

And the thing is, if I did embrace subjectivity, I could never enjoy discussing any work ever again, ever. Because as soon as I take the position that everyone's views are 'correct', discussion becomes pointless as I can't actually learn anything from it - all I can do is state my opinion and listen as they state theirs. I don't need to BE right (actually, I kind of like being wrong because if someone can prove I'm wrong, that means I just learned something new) but I need to have the possibility of being right or wrong. I need a standard to seek, otherwise I don't get anything out of it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh man-- of course I too like a standard (a truth, etc) to seek; that's why I said 'middle ground' and 'separate spheres' and all that. I was trying to focus explicitly on emotions and 'objective' readings of subjective experiences by the characters. I mean, I just have a hard time seeing emotions as having a solid outside 'truth' value; even when you have a character who's built to be incapable of traditional 'love' (a sociopath), any simulacrum within that is still valid for that character, for his partner, given the effect that it has, etc. In a way, projecting even an author's definition of 'real love' is just extraneous, and it's because there can -be- no outside standard in this instance the same way there can be in others.

Hehe it is illuminating to realize that difference-- liking things nailed down totally makes sense for you, of course. Most Js are like that... which I forget especially in terms of how loosely I phrase things (not that I keep an audience in mind anyway). Like, when I said that about not writing what's in their mind, I was speaking from experience-- lots of people misunderstand me, and it's not just their funky little brains at work, y'know. I write very... umm, impressionistically sometimes. Sometimes not (depends on mood). But when I'm in my imagist/imperssionistic mode, people totally only see what I put there if they're already on my wavelength. Otherwise they just say it's weird but pretty ^^;;;

Anyway, speaking of this particular case, she's not like that-- Manna's writing is v. logical in terms of progression and clear in style. It's perhaps because she's so 'transparent' as a writer and has such multi-layered ambiguous characters that it's almost like reality where there is no One True Answer to someone's heart & what they feel and so on. I mean, psychology is a science, but it's not a hard science, especially not in fiction. I mean, fiction in general is fuzzy in terms of logic/objectivity at the best of times, but talking specifically about ambiguous characters and their mostly-denied-and-repressed emotions... I don't think you could honestly have any 'straight' answer.

I sort of am in between on the 'perspective differences' thing-- I'm all for communication, but at the same time I think people get pleasure from the multiplicity in art/music/fiction, from seeing their own reflections in it, which would be impossible given an ideal communication of intent. It's like, I think here I'm just getting into art theory, but I think that there's room for a paradox there-- both of the universality of human experience as expressed by great works of art & emotion and of the simultaneous idiosyncrasy of each response, the precise levels of individual meaning sort of coexisting with the larger patterns of meta or group meaning. Uhhh... if that.. .makes sense.... -.-

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

I don't entirely get the separate spheres thing, I think? I mean, I get that you're talking about objective readings of subjecive experiences by the characters but the main reason I haven't addressed that in some form is that I'm not sure what you MEAN. This is perhaps because I don't really think emotions are especially subjective - I mean going back to QAF for a second, there's a whole debate over whether Brian is happy at the end of the series or not, and CowLip says he is, and other fans insist that he isn't because he doesn't look happy to them and... while happiness is subject to some degree, happy vs. unhappy isn't especially subjective, so I can't really say I'd consider both valid - either he's happy or not. I mean people can disagree on the degree of happiness - is he morbidly depressed, is he numb, is he ecstatic, is he content? but I don't think you can say he's happy and I can say he's depressed and have them both be valid.

So like, the love thing, whoever it applies to - I'd say that one can have arguments about degrees of love but not necessarily the presence or absence thereof.

When you're talking about writing personality disorders, though, it gets kind of difficult just because they're difficult to write when you aren't one. Usually a bit more emotion creeps in than they would realistically have, just because the author has emotions and can't entirely relate to not having them. I've heard the Dexter novels have that problem.

The funny thing about all this is that I don't especially have a problem with other people having subjective readings of MY writing. I mean, I'm all about seeking accuracy for myself, but when I write fanfic, I'm just trying to replicate patterns accurately so ideally people who think X loves Y in Z way will still think so, whereas people who think X loves B in Z way instead will think that, too. Impossible ideal, but an ideal nonetheless.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eh, it's like... I think I forget my original point when I ramble on sometimes ^^; I never meant to argue that in fact there -is- love if you define 'love' as a selfless emotion, 'concern for another moreso than oneself', etc. The thing is, really, this gets tangled up with my own reactions-- the relationship in question is heavy on need, obsessiveness and solid trust even if it's built on selfish needs on one character's part. To me, that selfishness isn't that important-- not that I'd call it Love with a capital L, but the relationship 'feels' like love, feels satisfying and intense and intimate. In a sense, I felt that way about B/J, too (though Toreth's a lot further down that slope, obviously, being diagnosable).

So that's where the definitional thing comes in-- like, what is love? Who decides they feel it? The character, author or reader? In real life, I've asked myself if what I'd felt was love many times, and my conclusions keep changing. I do know that for most people 'in the thick of it', love often means 'the closest thing to it' or 'my first experience' rather than some ideal-- and happiness gets muddied like this in terms of what we actually get to experience too (as opposed to 'pure' happiness which is v. fleeting).

I do think it's obvious enough to make rough judgments-- presence/absense-- I wasn't saying I wanted to embrace subjectivity 100%, just that I couldn't embrace objectivity 100%. To me, the very question posed by presence/absence is perhaps irrelevant in the complexity of human emotion. I think this is a problem with over-simplification magnified a bit-- since I'm so uber-sensitive to degrees of emotion, being rigidly categorical where I see fine gradations is just grating and false in the way yes/no binaries would be false to most people. I think objective thought can be subtle too, but most people use it to bludgeon and over-define-- they like to use it to narrow things down to X [a single variable or its negative, -X] instead of X-Y(2z)*x/0^2 or something like that, y'know? Some things are simple in emotion as well, but then there are things that just... aren't. It's perhaps not so much that it's inherently subjective as it's much more difficult to frame/understand fully using objective/rational terms (for most people I've seen, seeing as they keep maiming bits to make 'em fit). Rationalist types tend to want to narrow things down to a single variable when talking about emotions and that makes me twitch... severely..... So perhaps it's just that it requires a somewhat modified/more chaotic form of logic, like fuzzy math or something..... Anyway, far be it from me to want to have simplistic arguments about presence/absense :D

It's true that 'emotion creeps in'; that's partly what I meant about the story she wrote vs the story she meant to write! Still, it's not as if he's a textbook case... and even then, there are degrees of affliction, degrees of functioning of society (he's high-functioning). Besides, it's not so much that he doesn't have emotions as he doesn't so much understand those of others.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

oho Okay I thiiiink I have a better handle on what you mean now. I think that, for me, it's difficult to understand the concept of something "feeling" like love to begin with, because obviously I'm hardcore rational. I wouldn't say that I reduce things to X or Y, and then stop there though - more like I define whether X or Y is present, or some combination thereof, and then try and determine what flavor it is. And I guess I have some difficulty understanding how, if it "feels" like love behaviorally, but is not motivated by the emotion we call love, it would be a problem to call it "not love"? Because applying the word or removing the word doesn't change the actual events/behaviors/what IS there, it just more cleanly defines the emotional underpinnings of those behaviors/events (or lack thereof).

And I would say the author determines if the character feels it, but it's also up to the author to communicate that through the page. I mean, I am pretty authorial in leaning, as you well know, but at the same time if the author writes "George came into the office wearing a blue shirt" and later says "The story SAYS the shirt is blue, but the shirt? It's actually purple" then clearly they're full of it.

For me, it's more a question of going to them WITH the ambiguities - Brian loves Justin, but is it IN loveness or is it non-romantic generic caring? George is wearing a blue shirt, but is it baby blue or navy blue? And it's interesting because it's like the thing that I would say is definitely the area FOR authorial clarification is, in fact, the very thing you want them to leave to the reader.

And I admit I tend to be one of those rationals who define emotions in a simple way - I'm not sure how clear that is in my actual writing, but that's because I consider behavioral reactions complicated more than because I consider emotions themselves complicated. I mean I'm pretty opposite end here again, because you're talking about the infinite complexity of human emotion and I'm kind of like, what complexity? I dunno, maybe this is because I am all steeped in scientific method, which requires exactly what you're talking about (reduction of a concept to a firm and unambiguous construct, because if you can't define it, you can't study/test it. And come to that, Manna is a scientist, isn't she? Cause... that explains it.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I do think the type of blue shirt is a valid area for authorial clarification, but this is not something that's debatable based on definition anyway-- pretty straightforward. Whereas people can't necessarily agree what's 'the emotion we call love', y'know? One of the bigger problems is as malafede said below, basically that people use 'empathy' for love and don't verbalize it or admit it. Some people just assume love is selfless and kind just like in the Corinthians, whereas that's just an ideal, not necessarily the reality. Plus there's the factor that different people (unhealthy people, self-centered people, just... emotionally skewed people) experience this emotion differently. I mean, emotions are universal but not -that- universal that you could project an outside definition & expect it to fit like a glove the way 'baby blue' stays constant as a color.

Of course naming it doesn't change what's there; it's more that when people use that naming as an assumption, a basis for consequent arguments as if it's 'obvious' that we have a growing problem, a widening gap in discourse, I guess.

Perhaps I perceive high complexity in emotions, but I'm not really saying it's infinite? That's what I meant by 'fuzzy'; applying 'the scientific method' to someone who's more complex emotionally requires a different approach, I guess. Like, most people do fit into molds, but the more interesting characters don't-- or at least they fit into more advanced molds. Sometimes in math, reduction to a 'real number' is impossible, for instance, and you have imaginary numbers explaining real phenomena-- and then there's always Pi, for instance. I mean, I'm using this as a metaphor; when something 'feels' like love, I mean it fits with my experience/observation of it rather than a rational definition. In a way, this is closer to the scientific method, which naturally depends on observation as much as definition (which comes second-- and in the end observation trumps it if there's a disparity, right?) I guess the closest to a 'rational' explanation would be just this-- 'feel' is a product of intuitive observation that hasn't been experienced widely enough to harden into a larger theory, maybe. Most people, on the other hand, don't pause to observe/think and just apply labels, which isn't scientific at all as far as I'm concerned. :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

People totally disagree on what baby blue is. But okay, now I have to get more clarification - are you saying the author gets to determine how they feel (which is to say, the character's actual emotional ... feeling) but should not pin a specific terminology to it because not everyone would agree that said feeling fits that terminology? Or are you saying that the author does not determine what the character feels or the terminology used to describe it?

Because I can get more in line with the former, although I do think it's impractical just because you can't really discuss something without giving it a name.

Scientific Method - yes, it's observation --> form a construct based on observation --> test observation. I'm not sure I'd say observation trumps definition so much as observation forms definition, and then you need to nail down what you're observing into specific variables.

But I mean, I guess my point was less that it's appropriate to approach emotional issues in this way (I do, but I can't help it because I am heartless?) than that I could see why someone who thinks along those lines (from nature or by training, but they really feed each other) would.

I'm *never* going to get "feel" just because I don't... get it!. I have no idea how else to d

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I wonder about the whole question 'necessary naming'; I myself can and would discuss a relationship and the component behaviors and emotions without an overlying name (ie, specifically possessiveness, jealousy, need-for-reassurance, insecurity, all the various things that make up love, which isn't widely considered the most complex emotion for nothing). I would say that to give it an overlying name would be 'meta', which is what I have a problem with a writer having control over. It is talking about not just character's emotions but their deeper meaning-- and 'deeper meaning' is not 100% objective or even defined within the story, if the story's good, generally.

That's what I meant about 'symbology' when using the PoA!H/Hr example-- meaning, some symbology is in fact defined (as in, we know Harry & Hermione riding on a hippogriff together doesn't mean they're In Love [that's what I meant about transformational interpretations being wrong]. But perceiving selfish love as valid isn't a transformative interpretation-- the way perceiving Harry & Ginny's relationship in HBP as just 'puppy love' or 'a crush' isn't transformative or in any way 'against' the text as it stands, JKR's intent for them to marry and Ginny being the Ideal Girl for Harry aside. It would be incorrect to expect all readers of HBP to just accept Ginny's the Ideal Girl as if that's obvious just because JKR thinks so (meaning, it's really not obvious at all).

So yeah, the writer determines what the character feels, but this isn't as straightforward as it seems, because most people have such a range of understanding of what any feeling 'really' means. I mean, maybe someone could argue that 'baby blue' is a little more or less greenish (or whatever) but really there's some 'authority' you could appeal to. The writer has a literal but not a philosophical authority-- I mean, they have a philosophical authority too, but within limits. I really can't generalize with this; it's case-by-case, but mostly common sense to me.

It's not -just- terminology, anyway; people keep trying to focus on this aspect as if it's my central argument, whereas I keep trying to avoid it 'cause it's semantics, basically. What's more important is the conclusions and consequences-- how one changes one's view of other facts/events based on one definition or the other. To me, you could call a giraffe a snowcat and I wouldn't care, mostly-- usually names don't change what's really happening (ie, calling it a snowcat doesn't make it grow pale white fur). But calling their relationship empty of love does twist it into another shape. Emotions have that special property of being malleable according to point of view. Uh, this probably doesn't make sense to you, come to think of it, but :)) Yeah. You can 'explain' things several ways, generally (and though only one would be really correct, you could still have the others 'fit' and skew the story unpleasantly).

ANYWAY, I can see why people insist on rigid definitions... it just hurts my head. I wasn't making a really complex argument with this post, y'know :)) Just going NYAH! :> *shakes her head* This is what happens when people take you too seriously :>

I meant observation trumps definition when it contradicts it-- you need to redefine, right? You can't say 'I define it this way so this observation should and does fit'-- it's that blind spot we were mentioning earlier :>

Ugh, sorry, ignore previous comment.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Am very sorry, I got confused and thought this was my own LJ. >____<

I just wanted to jump in and say that I think I am not so sure that it isn't a semantic argument. It's just that love is more loaded than snowcats, and that when someone says 'empty of snowcats' it is not something that is as meaningful as 'empty of love.' In any event, discussion is impossible w/o agreement on terms.

heh!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It's all right to just jump in, though I was a little confused because....um, you were addressing me as if I was speaking to you. But just in general, I think trying to have a logical argument about something I was saying based on a single intuitive leap (in the first paragraph) and a sort of 'nyah' emotional response confuses me after awhile....

I agree that love is more loaded than snowcats, which is why I'd be more careful with how one talks about it (...the contrast was sort of the point? to show why sometimes 'semantics' carry more weight than others). And yeah, discussion is impossible without agreement on terms, which is why I actually found it frustrating, partly. On the other hand, I felt the terms were imposed (as opposed to drawn from the story/characters' behavior), which was especially frustrating even if it's the author doing it. It felt/read like a somewhat unusual but not -that- different of a 'selfish/romantic' love-story, not uncommon for shoujo manga. The mangaka don't say -that's- not love in those contexts, y'know? It would be confusing/weird/wrong if they did, to me.

I don't dispute that deeper meanings can be entrenched in a story, just that the only people who can resolve them would then be the characters (that's why I was talking about the characters deciding if they're in love).

The reason I was perceiving 'selfish love' as valid was because it worked in that story, full stop. I wasn't imposing this dynamic, it was actually there; I wouldn't say it's valid otherwise. I still wouldn't argue it's the 'correct' interpretation if I wasn't seeing the opposite view given authority that is basically transformative in this context. It's probably hard to convince anyone if they didn't read this fic, so all I can say is take my word for it, haha. I'm not saying that either of the characters believe the psychopathic one is 'in love'; he just exhibits all the symptoms [of 'selfish/unhealthy love'] and is in heavy denial. That's why I said things like 'ambiguous' and 'non-standard' and so on.

If one says there is -no- love of -any- sort, this skews the story being discussed, as far as I'm concerned, so that's where it goes beyond semantics. It doesn't -have- to in every case, but because the behavior in question starts out being ambiguous and the character is so twisted/in denial/mildly unusual for the [romantic] role he's given, you wind up having conversations that are irrelevant and make no sense to me with that assumption. Like, 'why is Toreth acting the way he is, given he's not in love'. That whole conversation is impossible if one doesn't agree he's not in -some- kind of love even if he's not in some Greek ideal of love that's being imposed on the narrative. Ummm. Gods, now I feel even more muddled, sorry...

Re: Ugh, sorry, ignore previous comment.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

And now I shall jump in and say I think it is semantic, which is probably why I can't get past trying to figure out the terminology issue.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Well what I mean about not being able to discuss something without giving it a name is just that a word is, in itself, a name. I mean, you can discuss the dynamic of a relationship without using the word "love" but you'd still be discussing the level of "need" or "desire" or "lust" or "possessiveness" and those are all names too. I guess to me, using the name "love" is the equivalent of that - not everyone's going to agree on what love is, exactly, true enough but then not everyone will agree on what "need" is, either. And yeah Love can be more complicated than need, but the point is that if we get into the realm of avoiding names because of individual definitions, then we're going to be like, gesturing and drawing.

I would say that perceiving Ginny as just puppy love would be transformative depending on what happens in HBP. I mean, I personally would just go with the idea that she's Harry's ideal girl, but that's mostly because I don't see any point in arguing with JKR because she's the one who's going to write that 'and then this happened!!' epilogue, not me.

I really can't generalize with this; it's case-by-case, but mostly common sense to me.

I guess that's my problem. Because I can't stand... like case-by-case things, especially in fandom because people are so emotionally loaded that they're probably going to skew the case-by-case to their advantage/to allow them to think what they'd like to think. Which isn't to say YOU'RE doing that, but it's actually a major issue for me, because I have that whole bias issue. Basically I have a hard time backing anything that allows people to make up their own rules, because people aren't objective about themselves to keep that shit in check. So it's kind of like.. although I agree in theory that case-by-case is good, I don't believe it creates anything resembling order in practice.

It's not -just- terminology, anyway; people keep trying to focus on this aspect as if it's my central argument, whereas I keep trying to avoid it 'cause it's semantics, basically.

Dude, that's because it's the only part of your argument that makes sense to me. You're totally right, that clarification paragraph... I mean it makes sense but it doesn't mean what you're saying to me. ... by which i mean, it just sounded like you said you didn't care if you called it love or not, except that if you don't call it love then that fucks it up. ...which makes no sense to me, and I assume that's not what you're saying but. I don't know what it means, LOL!

I meant observation trumps definition when it contradicts it-- you need to redefine, right? You can't say 'I define it this way so this observation should and does fit'-- it's that blind spot we were mentioning earlier

Indeed indeed. Well, hopefully you know me well enough to know I'm always in favor of redefinition. Accuracy, yo.

...and also, you know I totally don't speak NYAH. I CAN'T HELP IT.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

uh. not what happens in HBP. What happens in the 7th book!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, see, I'm not against calling things names (...as I keep saying? um); mostly when names then change what I see as reality because of implied-but-unstated definitions, I have a problem. You could have a conversation like this: 'well, this is what I mean'-- 'aha, -this- is what -I- mean!' and I would be fine, but this doesn't tend to happen. When the situation's complex/non-standard/ambiguous, I think words like 'love' that are left to their supposed 'universal definition' actually lead to -more- confusion and non-clarity, not less.

If you like, just look at my exchange with zillah975 below. I don't even disagree with her that their relationship is interesting because it's non-standard; I just can't get beyond the fact that to me, there's nothing missing if you accept that love can be unhealthy. I think people who talk about 'Love' as if it's all flowers and roses tend not to be talking about the -text- anyway, but rather an outside so-called 'canon' I don't agree with/never saw/can't even contest. How can the writer define it when there is no obvious authority and yet things are phrased as if there was??

Of course one should agree on what definitions are used to have a conversation, but people just assume this outside definition fits when it doesn't-- as far as I'm concerned, that ideal is often irrelevant. You can still say 'love' or 'need' as long as you don't bring this baggage... not everyone does in every case (meaning, mostly things work okay in more traditional/typical scenarios), but when things are non-standard in a story, people start drawing on personal experience-- or worse, hearsay, whether reader or writer. It's not like anyone's claiming to have really studied love (...except me, I think I have, but that's neither here nor there). People are just using personal anecdotes and some ephemeral 'universal' truth we all supposedly know.

In this case, I was just saying that maybe people shouldn't impose these outside meta judgments on a story that doesn't fit them and isn't about them. In this case, I think even the AUTHOR is basically having a 'transformational symbology'!! YES, that is in fact my problem. Ah! I've defined it!! *dances*

And yeah, the Ginny thing would change depending on book 7, but I meant without book 7, just speaking as is, since at this point you can't assume anything (until it's written) even if JKR -promises- she'll write it. That's me being hardline, y'know :D

[(Anonymous)]

It also seems like what's 'emotional reaction' and what's 'fact' can sometimes get muddled when we're talking about a character's emotions, especially if the character's emotions are ambiguous or non-standard-- I guess that's what I meant.

It also tends to get muddled in the writer's heart and mind, I think. This is why you're right, imo, when you say that the writer cannot just state, 'this is going to happen in the future' as long as they haven't actually written it. Because everybody who ever tried to string a few sentences together to make a story knows of the phenomenon of 'the story taking over'. You may want to write this, but the 'story' (a.k.a. your own subconscious) wants it like *that*.

Also, I'm convinced that Manna cannot really write a psychopath - because she is not one. It's the same with JKR telling us that Hermione is some kind of genius. JKR may think so, but Hermione is not written like that because JKR isn't one herself (well, not in the scholarly sense ;-)).

Lonicera

P.S. Oh, btw, here via MF - hope that's okay?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think it must be possible to write a totally alien/different type of person if one tries, but that's where research, betas and so on come in. I don't think realism was on the top of JKR's priority list when she was writing Hermione-- or rather, she seems to write by type and how she perceives people rather than seriously trying to represent reality. Manna's different, but even then I think Toreth can be seen as a 'romantic' flawed antihero-type character because even though he does unsavory/bad things, they never really cross the line to unsympathetic. I mean, people are free to dislike him, obviously, but in the twisted world/situation that he's in, he's not... straightforwardly evil or anything. Like, by the time Carnac was trying to destroy the I&I, it didn't seem like a really good idea somehow, haha, or at least I was sympathizing with his desire to preserve it & how far he went and so on.

There's definitely a space between intent and what gets written, and what most people talk about in their writing is intent-- it's like, I think the writer is possibly actually worst at seeing what's 'actually' there 'cause for them, intent is like a screen overlying everything. I know it takes -me- years or at least months of not seeing/thinking about a story I've written before I'm remotely objective about it & what I actually wrote vs what I tried to write. It's probably even more extreme when the writer's more hardline/logical rather than uber-fuzzy about their own ideas...

Oh, and hi :) It's perfectly fine to come here any way you like :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

It's probably even more extreme when the writer's more hardline/logical rather than uber-fuzzy about their own ideas...

Depends on the person and the story. I can honestly say I spend a lot of time, when writing, thinking "yeah everyone's going to think I meant blah blah blah"... and generally speaking, I'm usually right.

I'd say people who are more hardline/logical are more likely to hit what they're aiming for because they're so methodical in determining exactly how to do so, but at the same time theyre probably less aware when they don't hit it, because that same extensive thought process convinces them that they've found the best way to get across what they were trying to say.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehehe it's so delightful that our brains work so differently at such a basic level!!! *glee* Um. *coughs*

Anyway, yeah, that's kind of what I tried to get across by 'extreme' (except of course I wasn't methodical enough to delineate it & follow the logic threads, etc). That thing where 'if/when they don't hit it' then they're even more confused/blinded 'cause usually they -do- feel so confident (though the idea of knowing how people will react!! That is a level of 'hardline' I can only imagine in my wildest dreams, ahahahaahasklfjaf;lakjds Though I could do it if I tried hard enough, I hate trying that hard... uh... -.-)

Also I think perhaps a hardline/logical writer might miss the 'big picture' if its' the big -emotional- picture-- like, they may be aware of that possible response but not of the ambiguities within the simulation of reality they'd made that make it actually work on a certain level. The better you are at representing reality, the less in control you paradoxically are in terms of how it gets received/seen/experienced by the readers and possibly even the characters-- I think you said something like that about how you want people to keep their old reactions to characters/events :>

...I'm really almost in awe at the idea of being able to predict reactions so exactly. *sigh* It's like, IF I COULD DO THAT I COULD RULE THE WOOOOORLDDDlkasjfls;kfjlakjfajsd

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA you're so awesome.

I think you said something like that about how you want people to keep their old reactions to characters/events :>

Yeah, but again that's very methodical. I choose to try and evoke similar reactions by replicating canon patterns and, again, totally impossible and imperfect, but I give it a shot. Like I said, I need a standard to strive to. Half the time, my "people are going to think I mean..."s aren't what I actually THINK, so much as what I know I'm giving the impression of (like I could write a story where I think Brian's being an ass but I know that people will think he's being a martyr, because I'm hitting the same buttons canon did that made them think that to begin with, for example).

You may be right about the emotional big picture. I honestly don't know - I mean, I've very rarely had people take things in a way I didn't mean for them to take it that I KNOW OF, but people aren't exactly discussion heavy on fanfic and I don't share original fiction. Plus fanfic carries so much baggage, people just come into things... with their views already formed.

I am not sure what you mean about having less control over how things get received by the characters!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, most people are... uh, pretty predictable, actually, because they do have similar reactions (and even 'camps' of similar reactions to controversial enough material), but I personally tend to be a lot fuzzier/more of a crossbreed than most 'cause I see several stands at once, generally. Plus I'm just... umm, different (don't have the buttons other people do). Like, I often see reactions to manga posted on yaoi_daily & 97% of the people think the complete opposite of what I think when they comment on the characters (who's an asshole, etc)-- I mean, there's more of this kind of commentary with manga than fanfic since people aren't as deferential without the writer there, maybe. BUT ANYWAY. Yeah, they go for the 'cheap shot' pov most of the time & don't try to understand/sympathize too deeply with the vaguely unsympathetic characters or the 'odd one out' or whatever.... whereas I'm always 'but what's -really- going on with X' and such. Anyway, as a writer, I constantly find that people have totally different ideas than I mean them to 'cause of this simplifying thing.

Hm, about the characters-- I mean, to the degree that you are 'realistic' as a writer and they are well-defined as characters in your writing, whether it's original or fanfic, you can't control what they feel (even if you control the events). Like... umm, the logic of the character is such that if you're being honest as a writer, you can't control what happens to them in response to some events, and some events follow as a logical progression to -other- earlier events. So there's a definite limit to control, there :>

[(Anonymous)]

I think it must be possible to write a totally alien/different type of person if one tries, but that's where research, betas and so on come in.

I don't know. I think it's a problem - like trying to converse in a language not your own. My English may be fairly okay for daily use, but I cannot ever get to the point where someone is who actually grew up in that language.

I think Toreth can be seen as a 'romantic' flawed antihero-type character because even though he does unsavory/bad things, they never really cross the line to unsympathetic. I mean, people are free to dislike him, obviously, but in the twisted world/situation that he's in, he's not... straightforwardly evil or anything.

Especially, unlike in RL, we get a glimpse at *how* he became what e is now - and then you cannot *not* feel for him.

Like, by the time Carnac was trying to destroy the I&I, it didn't seem like a really good idea somehow, haha, or at least I was sympathizing with his desire to preserve it & how far he went and so on.

Yeah, I mean, when you want to dispose of something, you should have something better to replace it with, you know. And what was it that Carnac wanted to install instead?

There's definitely a space between intent and what gets written, and what most people talk about in their writing is intent-- it's like, I think the writer is possibly actually worst at seeing what's 'actually' there 'cause for them, intent is like a screen overlying everything.

Exactly.

I know it takes -me- years or at least months of not seeing/thinking about a story I've written before I'm remotely objective about it & what I actually wrote vs what I tried to write.

Same here.

Oh, and hi :) It's perfectly fine to come here any way you like :>

Hi! ;-) and thank you.

Lonicera (Sorry for the earlier post - that was not my ID in the Mannazone)