[oooh, porn meta! *leer*]
Jul. 11th, 2006 09:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaI was just thinking about my fic-- which is finally(!) going well now that I have actual stuff I should be doing instead (because my brain = evil, thanx to my ex for pointing that out, btw)-- anyway, I was thinking about why I just take it for granted that of -course- it's smutty. I write smutty & read smutty (if the situation allows & we've gotten past 'I HATE YOU, POTTER, DIE!!!' at least a bit). Anyway, this is without really being a 'smut writer' or whatever. It's not my identity, it's just fun-- one of the 'good parts' of writing like banter is, unlike those pesky exposition parts I cringe to contemplate. I mean-- plot is fun to conceive of, maybe, but sort of plodding and not very imaginative to execute in details and particulars.
So in retrospect, it seems interesting-- odd?-- that one of the main complaints non-smut-writers have about porn is that it's repetitive and they're afraid they'll sound like every other porn scene they or anyone else had ever written. Indeed, a lot of evidence does corroborate this, because many sex scenes do sound alike within a single writer's work and also in general.
Now, many people have already written about this & it all sounds like an old hat (now meta-- that's repetitive), yes. People say that you should customize your sex scene to that specific situation & the characters, and I do believe that's a big part of the puzzle, but-- the point remains that even when a scene seems customized, it can still appear dull or plodding-- that is, the descriptions of the reactions aren't interesting (shocking? arousing? and doesn't reader-arousal often depend on novelty or that unexpected stomach-churning guh moment at least to some degree?) even if the reactions seem realistic enough.
The bottom line is more likely to involve the writer's relationship with sensorily descriptive passages in general, it seems like.
Like, a really great smut writer would usually-- I'm betting-- also be good at describing emotional states, getting in character's skin and showing the reader what a strawberry tastes like to them, how they experience cold, their reaction to a rainy day, their relationship to food and what they find beautiful or what they notice in the physical world around them.
All of this has the potential to be repetitive just as much as sex-- after all, haven't we all tasted a strawberry many times?-- and also the potential to be intensely, deeply singular and individual to both the person and the moment in a way no other part of writing can touch.
I think people who don't naturally enjoy the sensory-descriptive end of things as writers tend to think of sex as a mechanical act-- a set of actions-- whether or not they actually do write sex-scenes prolifically. Especially with men, I think, all they need is the actions to get turned on as they write or read-- it's just not very good as far as writing, whether or not there are orgasms as a result, and this is what the non-porn-writers complain about.
If you view actions as means to an end-- like, your character goes to the store only to see what happens when they get X item or meet X person there-- then yes, written sex can't help but be repetitive and a bit pointless. In other words, if you write for the orgasm alone, yours, your characters' or your audience's, the result can't help but be rather limp.
On the other hand, good smut-writers -do- write for their own orgasm a lot of times (ahem), so really... it's important that what you're writing means something to -you-. If it doesn't, that too can easily leave things limp and plodding.
So... although I'm drawing this parallel between the tendency towards sensual & sexual sensory description, I don't think it's necessarily linked all the time. I mean, in terms of overall fantasy lit, for instance, you'll find authors like Tolkien (who constantly describe everything -but- sex, though obviously we have to figure in genre & era) and authors like GRR Martin, who's quite good with both physicality, rawness and moments of poetic beauty, but his limited sex scenes almost invariably fall flat or seem rather cliche or strained.
Then there's Lynn Flewelling, the one who wrote the Nightrunner series-- and she's full of overload-level descriptions of cities & nature & a million sensory details, plus her het sex-scene in 'The Bone Doll's Twin' is quite physical, vivid and sexy-- but her homo scenes were meh, quite wooden in comparison. In other words, there are many issues involving the writer's preferences, ethics, interests, the sexual imagination itself, etc-- it's just that in my experience it works the other way around, where good smut-writers could easily write other descriptions well.
...And now that I've mentioned it, I have to say what I mean by 'the sexual imagination', I guess. ^^;;
Basically, while some people are heavily visual in terms of how they imagine things, some people are auditory and some people tactile-- and of course some of us are also mixed breeds or even synaesthetic. Some people might even just imagine things based on words alone and don't 'play things out' in their heads-- so the sex-scene is likely to seem really boring/rote, right? This probably plays a large role in individual interest in writing sex -and- the sort of sex scene one writes, I think. Like, for a good intense scene, you'd probably need an intense tactile imagination the way you just wouldn't if you were describing strawberry eating or watching a sunset.
For example, I was just reading a smutfic yesterday by a famous smut writer in fandom and even though it was okay-- you know, competent-- it wasn't really all that descriptive, so even though the situations were inventive enough and the reactions personalized & internally consistent, it fell flat. I couldn't get into the characters' skin-- I could only watch, or more precisely hear a retelling that never seemed to live in the moment itself. I couldn't begin to taste their sweat as a single bead rolled down one jaw onto the sheets, feel their desperation to fuck now, hear their groans.
I'll admit a sensory feast (uber-realism plus, haha) isn't always fitting in that point in a story, or what everyone wants in the scene as readers. However, it's what makes an intense, unique, tantalizing experience, even if a fraction of the full-fledged approach is used. You don't need to go into minute mechanical detail-- you just need the right details to recreate the experience in a reader's mind.
To finally make things even more complicated ('cause y'all know how I love that!), I have to say it's perfectly plausible (and often even better!) to write a sex-scene with very few descriptions at all, which relies on dirty talk and dialogue to bring on the sexy. A lot of times it's just boring if the description isn't broken up by dialogue-- which always feels more immediate to the reader, you just can't help it. This is why I've become a little -too- into Japanese-yaoi-style written-out moaning-- no matter how many times I write 'moan', it just doesn't compare to a well-placed "Uuh"-- at least to me. But! I'm susceptible-- or rather, auditorily sensitive. I can imagine there are plenty of people who'd just get turned off 'cause they think it's too bad-porn-movie-like or they're just not into dirty talk. No piece of smut can please everyone in ways that just don't apply to other sorts of (descriptive or other) writing!
'Uuuughh', basically :>
~~
Also: you know it's a bad online sorting quiz when not only does it not include Zacharias or Luna, but it says I'm either Hermione or Fudge :/ heh
So in retrospect, it seems interesting-- odd?-- that one of the main complaints non-smut-writers have about porn is that it's repetitive and they're afraid they'll sound like every other porn scene they or anyone else had ever written. Indeed, a lot of evidence does corroborate this, because many sex scenes do sound alike within a single writer's work and also in general.
Now, many people have already written about this & it all sounds like an old hat (now meta-- that's repetitive), yes. People say that you should customize your sex scene to that specific situation & the characters, and I do believe that's a big part of the puzzle, but-- the point remains that even when a scene seems customized, it can still appear dull or plodding-- that is, the descriptions of the reactions aren't interesting (shocking? arousing? and doesn't reader-arousal often depend on novelty or that unexpected stomach-churning guh moment at least to some degree?) even if the reactions seem realistic enough.
The bottom line is more likely to involve the writer's relationship with sensorily descriptive passages in general, it seems like.
Like, a really great smut writer would usually-- I'm betting-- also be good at describing emotional states, getting in character's skin and showing the reader what a strawberry tastes like to them, how they experience cold, their reaction to a rainy day, their relationship to food and what they find beautiful or what they notice in the physical world around them.
All of this has the potential to be repetitive just as much as sex-- after all, haven't we all tasted a strawberry many times?-- and also the potential to be intensely, deeply singular and individual to both the person and the moment in a way no other part of writing can touch.
I think people who don't naturally enjoy the sensory-descriptive end of things as writers tend to think of sex as a mechanical act-- a set of actions-- whether or not they actually do write sex-scenes prolifically. Especially with men, I think, all they need is the actions to get turned on as they write or read-- it's just not very good as far as writing, whether or not there are orgasms as a result, and this is what the non-porn-writers complain about.
If you view actions as means to an end-- like, your character goes to the store only to see what happens when they get X item or meet X person there-- then yes, written sex can't help but be repetitive and a bit pointless. In other words, if you write for the orgasm alone, yours, your characters' or your audience's, the result can't help but be rather limp.
On the other hand, good smut-writers -do- write for their own orgasm a lot of times (ahem), so really... it's important that what you're writing means something to -you-. If it doesn't, that too can easily leave things limp and plodding.
So... although I'm drawing this parallel between the tendency towards sensual & sexual sensory description, I don't think it's necessarily linked all the time. I mean, in terms of overall fantasy lit, for instance, you'll find authors like Tolkien (who constantly describe everything -but- sex, though obviously we have to figure in genre & era) and authors like GRR Martin, who's quite good with both physicality, rawness and moments of poetic beauty, but his limited sex scenes almost invariably fall flat or seem rather cliche or strained.
Then there's Lynn Flewelling, the one who wrote the Nightrunner series-- and she's full of overload-level descriptions of cities & nature & a million sensory details, plus her het sex-scene in 'The Bone Doll's Twin' is quite physical, vivid and sexy-- but her homo scenes were meh, quite wooden in comparison. In other words, there are many issues involving the writer's preferences, ethics, interests, the sexual imagination itself, etc-- it's just that in my experience it works the other way around, where good smut-writers could easily write other descriptions well.
...And now that I've mentioned it, I have to say what I mean by 'the sexual imagination', I guess. ^^;;
Basically, while some people are heavily visual in terms of how they imagine things, some people are auditory and some people tactile-- and of course some of us are also mixed breeds or even synaesthetic. Some people might even just imagine things based on words alone and don't 'play things out' in their heads-- so the sex-scene is likely to seem really boring/rote, right? This probably plays a large role in individual interest in writing sex -and- the sort of sex scene one writes, I think. Like, for a good intense scene, you'd probably need an intense tactile imagination the way you just wouldn't if you were describing strawberry eating or watching a sunset.
For example, I was just reading a smutfic yesterday by a famous smut writer in fandom and even though it was okay-- you know, competent-- it wasn't really all that descriptive, so even though the situations were inventive enough and the reactions personalized & internally consistent, it fell flat. I couldn't get into the characters' skin-- I could only watch, or more precisely hear a retelling that never seemed to live in the moment itself. I couldn't begin to taste their sweat as a single bead rolled down one jaw onto the sheets, feel their desperation to fuck now, hear their groans.
I'll admit a sensory feast (uber-realism plus, haha) isn't always fitting in that point in a story, or what everyone wants in the scene as readers. However, it's what makes an intense, unique, tantalizing experience, even if a fraction of the full-fledged approach is used. You don't need to go into minute mechanical detail-- you just need the right details to recreate the experience in a reader's mind.
To finally make things even more complicated ('cause y'all know how I love that!), I have to say it's perfectly plausible (and often even better!) to write a sex-scene with very few descriptions at all, which relies on dirty talk and dialogue to bring on the sexy. A lot of times it's just boring if the description isn't broken up by dialogue-- which always feels more immediate to the reader, you just can't help it. This is why I've become a little -too- into Japanese-yaoi-style written-out moaning-- no matter how many times I write 'moan', it just doesn't compare to a well-placed "Uuh"-- at least to me. But! I'm susceptible-- or rather, auditorily sensitive. I can imagine there are plenty of people who'd just get turned off 'cause they think it's too bad-porn-movie-like or they're just not into dirty talk. No piece of smut can please everyone in ways that just don't apply to other sorts of (descriptive or other) writing!
'Uuuughh', basically :>
~~
Also: you know it's a bad online sorting quiz when not only does it not include Zacharias or Luna, but it says I'm either Hermione or Fudge :/ heh
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no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 01:30 am (UTC)You have some good points here. I think the key to making sex scene writing erotic rather than mechanical is capturing the subjective experience of the participants.
There are also tropes or clichés that provoke an almost Pavlovian response in some set of readers. I always want to step away from those and write the scene in a more naturalistic way, because it serves goals of characterization and setting better? But when I do, it's not sufficiently erotic.
Dirty talk is a big part of that. It seems pretty unrealistic to me, most of the time. It's too much like a porn movie. But if the characters don't speak, then all of their reactions have to be captured in wordless grunts and gasps, physical spasms and internal monologue.
I mean, obviously, people do continue to think while they are having sex. But if you want your scene to seem really erotic, their inner thoughts can't be all complex and philosophical and everything--even if that's the way you know real people to think during sex. So we have to make them talk, and it has to tread the line between believeability and eros.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 01:20 pm (UTC)Otherwise, I didn't mean specifically 'dirty talk' so much as regular dialogue-- not like flowery extreme gooey stuff or talking about the weather, but just something related to the scene but broken up is usually hot, like, 'Oh-- just-- yeah!-- no, over there, I-- fuck, stop!' or something. Incoherence is sexy to me :D But then, I've never been one of those people who could do it with complete sentences :>
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 05:24 am (UTC)I find that I prefer to read First Time stories, because then there is the UST to carry the surge of excitement, although granted there will not necessarily be the carry-through of smut description that keeps me there.
Then there's the current mood; sometimes I need heavy hardcore explicit sex-words, (anus! wet! hard! hole! etc) or it doesn't fire up... other times, I could do without any of it, and find myself skimming for the dialogue (which drives the story forward, and if it is just a 'gaaah', or a 'mewl', I get bored). It changes, according to the need I have at the time of reading. I read one by moonflower_rose when I was in a TERRIBLE mood,and I was bored,bored bored. I read it again two months later and holy freakin' crap it nearly melted my clothes off my body. It was THAT strong... so there's no telling sometimes.
Some smut IS better without dialogue, but others suffer if it's just rote descriptors, esp if the writer feels awkward about it and doesn't have a real flow for what they are writing. The awkwardness they feel can taint the effect for the reader.
IMO smut scenes can have more impact if they have placed the reader in a situation tailored/customised to the situation in a way that enables you to really relate with every breath, every gasp, every moment that passes, as if you are there in their head or at least standing next to them...um, yeah, the subjective thing... and sometimes that's best achieved by writing a scene so original, so new, so fraught with tension that orgasm is no longer the objective of the scene. A kind of merging of emotional and sensual impact. The words won't be memorable, but the scene will.
aaaand I ramble...hee
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 10:15 am (UTC)Then there's the post-HBP one, which started out as an established-relationship Death Eater!Draco post-Azkaban fic with flashbacks-- and evolved into just a post-HBP novella. It has smut all over the place & it starts from the beginning, but I wouldn't call it a UST-dependent first-time fic, because there's not -that- much build up to start with-- the story's about what happens afterwards and the sex just keeps on happening. It's hard with H/D 'cause it takes so long to build up properly, it takes forever to get to plausible first times, though usually I can do kissing as a break for tension. Like, you're totally right that extreme & unique circumstances work best for tension-- it's just somehow my muse is perverse so I wind up stoppng just short a lot unless I'm directly setting them up to fuck. It's hard, man. ;____;
But yeah... 'orgasm isn't the objective' seems to come rather easily with H/D to me, at least, and I do appreciate it. They have all this physicality and emotionality that doesn't need to be expressed straightforwardly. Plus there's all that pure violence there. Which raises the question of why I keep writing in actual smut, and I have to say 'because it's fun' :D
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 10:30 am (UTC)It's hard with H/D 'cause it takes so long to build up properly, it takes forever to get to plausible first times,
YEeesssssssssss!!!! <---- inadvertent parseltongue
It IS Hard!!! so hard...
and what you said about all that pure VIOLENCE there....I was JUST raving about that to someone in email earlier!!! I'm so totally there with you on that! the dynamic isn't so much smut-oriented as conflict-oriented, and the tension is so driven! love, love this....
It's SO TRUE for me as well, that the dynamic they have isn't necessarily upfront at all! I love the way you put it. and yeah, the fun part of writing smut is somewhat irresistible! hee!!!
oh hell, I'll go read your ficcage now...what is sleep, after all? ;P
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 10:39 am (UTC)...Violence, though. That's easy. Frustrates me how only 'hatesex' ficlets post-OoTP used it much, and it was actually more common in darker post-GoF fics o_0
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 11:04 am (UTC)OH. MY. .
It is so effing brilliant, I'm kind of jaw-dropped right now. aiee!!
It flows, perfectly, and has this incredible brilliance that I cannot begin to describe coherently. I could NOT stop reading; it's so good, so pure, so THEM. I don't mean to sound like I'm comparing you to or against all other writers who have written, or something, because there is a LOT of good stuff to read, and I love a lot of fics, but holy hell!!!
This thing is fantastic. I am completely in LOVE with the way you wrote Harry there, and Draco is flawless, brilliant, awesomely IC and canonical and the fic is just...I am FLOORED. rather breathless here... I cannot believe I've not discovered you til recently! *whimpers* I need to read everything now...jeezus...
I want to review you properly, but I'm not sure where to do it. I'll have to email you, methinks. is that ok? I'll email you the reviews as I go through them. Just...wow.
Fighting Dirty is now officially one of my all-time favourite H/D fics! gah...
ok, I'm officially and shamelessly *fangirling* you now. eep! *is red*
thanks for the link to the WIP too!!! woo!! xmas has come early...
am too excited. must calm down. heheh
believe me, I don't NEED to read smut to get the H/D...particularly when written by someone like YOU who NAILS them so completely!
I know what you mean about the feeling of not being able to do the serious first time fic because of the long convoluted plot it would require to do it right...I have to literally beat that feeling off with a stick everytime I write them because it always seems so wrong to me to get them together so fast. (sigh) but yeah, I feel sympathy for you on that headache! and yeah,that IS odd, about the hatesex fics being more common in post-GOF...
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 12:35 pm (UTC)*is rather overwhelmed* *___*
Um, thank you~!! Looking back on that fic, it's sort of embarrassing in a way since I've progressed since then so much it's rather funny I thought I was being sorta risque with how angry & bitter my Harry was, ahahaha. Later, I'd have to stop myself and write a more sincere or nice Harry, even though he's a lot nicer when he's not interacting with Malfoy. I'd actually been thinking about that recently, 'cause I love Harry & love just writing him naturally, -as- 'just Harry', but it's next to impossible for me to do with Draco in the mix, 'cause he just brings out Harry's dark & obsessive side -.-;; Well, that's why I love it, but I miss this (http://gredandfeorge.livejournal.com/93625.html) sort of Harry, y'know? *sigh*
And! Um, no need to email me stuff unless you really want to~! If you leave comments on the fics, I'll get notified. That's why I gave you that memories link-- for the ease & familiarity of lj-- instead of my Skyehawke account (http://archive.skyehawke.com/authors.php?no=107).
no subject
Date: 2006-07-13 04:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-13 08:44 am (UTC)...it does sort of stick out in my memory as well.
...possibly 'cause it's the only quasi-sexual thing they do during like, 80+ pages, but :>
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 11:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 11:37 am (UTC)...it's even hotter when it's BIG.
mmm :D
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 11:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 11:58 am (UTC)AND ALSO LIPS :( SHE DRAWS THE MOST KISSABLE LIPS EVERRRRRRrrr... *____*
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 11:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 05:03 pm (UTC)Luckily I don't have issues over writing porn (even if it's generic I kind of cannonball in happily) but of course that means I am totally incompetent and frightened when it comes to writing plot. I want to trade someone skill-sets.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 05:09 pm (UTC)I need plot-skillz also :/ But I was actually thinking of you when I said general description & sexual description could go hand-in-hand, 'cause you're so great with just... describing how Harry's walking across night-time Hogwarts in the winter (to go meet Draco in the stables, hehehe!). I still remember that. And those carriages. And the SWORD. Well, that was another fic, but still. It's a skill!
no subject
Date: 2006-07-13 01:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-13 08:49 am (UTC)YOU REALIZE HOW MUCH I WANT TO SEE THIS NOW, DON'T YOU?? :(( lakjlkfja;lfj MOANING :(
yaoi has corrupted my soul, but! I'm glad to uh, share :D
...it would be hilarious if you got into it too, I mean. with the writing-out-sounds. 'cause I always feel so... 'okay, I should probably make it into nouns, but... nooooo'-- um, torn :/
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 05:57 pm (UTC)But oh, when it's good ...!
no subject
Date: 2006-07-13 08:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-22 07:15 am (UTC)Also: you know it's a bad online sorting quiz when not only does it not include Zacharias or Luna, but it says I'm either Hermione or Fudge :/ heh
hahahaha i got Fudge too! i feel so much better now that i'm (sorta) not alone...i think my very close tied-for-second's were McGonagall & Hermione