[self-demonstrating my point, it appears]

[reenka]

All right, I have a question: why do people apologize for rambling and/or try to be brief, as if more exuberant verbiage would somehow be offensive, at least online??

I was actually thinking about this, and... doesn't it stand to reason that even if you have nothing of interest to say, if you just keep on talking, eventually you'll say something vaguely interesting?? Maybe. If you can make yourself understood and/or aren't insane. I'm guessing.

Maybe this is 'cause we live in the age of brain-numbing small-talk and sound-bytes, where anything that isn't packaged and prescheduled is suspect, I dunno, or maybe that's too cynical and hard on small-talk. Or maybe it's just lame & dorky to waffle about and be indirect, or possibly too 'feminine' and not macho enough for guys especially and/or it gives the impression that the person has a soft brain, so to speak. I mean, I won't argue about the soft brain bit, personally. I always thought direct, blunt people were way cooler than I am, but my point is that it takes skill to be successfully both intelligent and blunt + direct, skill which you don't need to ramble on pointlessly and also skill which you obviously don't have if you're to-the-point but not, in fact, pithy.

Perhaps as a side issue, this whole thing of wanting to appear to be cool which might explain things... I dunno. Why do people even bother? Of course, this probably says more about my apathy than their delusion, as per usual....

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Because people (unlike us? make it most people) don't like to read long posts. Actually they simply do not read them (many experiments of mine have proven that).

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I knew that was involved somehow, but the idea that the length itself would drive people away even if it's interesting or at least not blindingly boring... I dunno... that sort of scares me :))

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

It's a fact.

Underlying is the urge of people to talk rather than listen. It's easy to reply to something short, hard to do it for something long, esp. considering the above, i.e. having to read it first. Which most people don't do before answering, where the whole misundersanding issue nicely slots into.

So. Make it neat, parcel it up, bite-size, bulleted. And for a less cynical list of hints, see passionate_users, i.e. give your readers something to take home with or fill out.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It's funny how I knew that, really, but don't usually admit it fully to myself 'cause it's just so different from me that it literally doesn't naturally register and I have to consciously force myself to remember that's how people are. I'm just funny that way, or maybe everyone's like that. I always assume I'm more like other people than I am, which is ridiculous since I already -know- I'm really different. Maybe I don't have a correct grasp on the precise -ways- in which I am and am not different, or something. But this-- not wanting to listen regardless of interest level??!-- this is beyond my natural grasp. Seriously.

I see how that works in, though. People assuming I don't want to listen!! Maybe that's what offends me on some level, actually (like, 'what do you mean I don't wanna listen??!') And this segues into possibly being pleasantly surprised and even happy when they discover I'm a really good listener (as well as being a prolific talker)?? Maybe.

To me it's ridiculous, but for others, normal and expected. Mind-blowing, in a way, really :>

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Yes. I'd say welcome to my world but you've been aware of it yourself anyway.



People keep saying I'm an alien; is my lack of esteem tied to me not believing in extraterrestrial lifeforms? /pointless end-note

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think maybe there's a key difference between the being long and the babbling. Like sometimes the issue is that you start off talking about something--or I should say that *I* do this because I do it all the time, and then it sparks other ideas and I go off on them and now I've sort of started my own line of thought and left the original part behind so why did I even expect the other person to answer or whatever.

So it's more about going off topic maybe? It seems like that's when I usually hear about babbling or consider saying it myself.

Btw, speaking of not-babbling, I didn't get your message until I looked at my phone the next day. Sorry!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, that sounds plausible! It's probably the off-topic thing, though I actually really like going off topic because people who always stay on are kind of boring, aren't they? At least that's how I feel :> I think a lot of the fun of conversation is going off on tangents, but maybe some people are uptight :>

Hahah, well, if you wanna babble together some more, I'll be back Wednesday till Saturday next week, at which time I shall depart. For England, whee-hee :D

[mark356.livejournal.com]

There are lots of reasons. On LJ, anyway, the friendslist is designed for us to be able to see lots of people write lots of things really fast, so if anything is longer than a few screenfuls, I'll just open it in a new window and save it for later, if at all. Also, if we were talking face to face, just rambling with each other and seeing what happens can be fun, but in writing, you're expected to have already figured out what you want to say-- if you want to free-associate, that's fine, but if there's anything in your free association that you want to present online, then you're expected to articulate it a bit more. And a shorter essay is easier to read, and easier to follow the line of reasoning of.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ah, but here you're talking about essays specifically, aren't you? Most of what people write in fandom ljs or online in general aren't 'essays' by any strict definition, and not meta by a long shot. Out of everyone on my flist (70 people or so), only sistermagpie writes meta or any sort of essay consistently. In my experience, it's much more common for 'normal' fandom people to be even less organized than -me- in terms of their meta thoughts-- they just tend to throw them out there, not even following their lines of thought to any natural conclusion and throwing out their assumptions as easily as their theories or observations.

So I'm not sure who is this 'they' or whatever that is really doing the expecting. I wouldn't consider most people, whether or not they're fun or easy to read or intelligent, truly 'coherent' or somehow enlightening. I understand about the easy-to-read thing, but rambles are relatively easy to read-- they don't require concentration or even much thought the way a linear argument that depends on evidence and asks you to think through things rigorously would. In that sense, it depends on the person's own comfort level, what they consider 'easy', and I think most people are linear without being logical, and straightforward without really being rational, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I can definitely see where in any seriously online-published essay, you'd be expected to have figured things out already, but most of the time I see these apologies is in comments or emails-- online conversation of one sort or another. I would also bet that most people don't see posting on lj as being 'publishing', especially if it's friendslocked-- it may be public (in the public domain), also, without being published, the way comment threads are public but not published.

Also, I'm not sure there's a causal or direct relationship between having figured out what you're saying and it being short (like, short doesn't have to mean 'to the point', either). Sometimes your point is complex and requires sidetracking to even explain correctly or fully. Sometimes stating a complex point quickly and pithily will just confuse people and make them wary of commenting 'cause they sense they're in over their heads.

I can see how you're expected to articulate free-associated thoughts in -essays-, but in informal situations, the length of a point can be directly relational to the degree one is trying to fully articulate a not-quite-coherent point :>

[sahar-sachi.livejournal.com]

              I blame it on culture, this lack of patience and apologies for taking up someone's time.

              Fast is the way everything is supposed to be today. Isn't that one of the main enticements in advertising for just about anything? Plastic surgery, dentistry, cars, phones, computers, banking, clothes, fitness, travel agencies, dating, etc, all supposed to be close to instantaneous, easy to do, and therefore as little of a disturbance in your life as possible.

"In just two weeks, lose 30 pounds! Fast and easy!"
"This will get you where you need to be. Fast."
"High-speed internet connection at dial-up cost."
"See fast results!"
"Dentistry you won't even notice! Quick and painless."

              I mean, aren't all theses messages convincing people that they're way busier than they actually are? Isn't the actual message:

              "Wow, look at you, so terribly frantic to do all that important stuff at once. We're not going to waste your precious time. We care. Look how fast and easy we make this for you."

              And people right away think: "Oh. Yes, I... I am quite busy. How could I not have noticed? How thoughtful of them to think to make my life easier."

              And everything else they do - and buy - will now reflect this implanted belief.

              Don't get me wrong, it's not a conspiracy theory I'm trying to describe, I just think this "fastness" is a side-effect of current advertising trends. Like temporary blindness and diarrhea.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it sure sounds like it-- though I think people don't feel they're too busy for entertainment-- porn, pretty pictures, fun quizzes or whatever. It's not like the stuff one rambles about even lives in the same 'mental space' as one's common-day life, it seems to me. Like, the very concept of chatting, about fannish subjects or any casual topic-- that seems to only be something one does when one isn't busy to start with.

It's probably got something to do with much shortered attention spans, except... it's not -me- who's apologizing for their short attention span, it's them who're assuming -I- have one? Which is just odd, but I guess understandable :>

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

I think this statement could be viewed as a social gesture. It's expressing respect for the other person's time and consideration for them. In other words, it's acknowledging that they are spending their time listening to what you have to say, and out of consideration for that, you'll be thrifty about it, that you won't take more time out of the conversation than you actually need.

Now, length certainly doesn't equal rambling/disorganization. Sometimes it is needed so a complex point can be fully explained. Pithy, IMHO, is an art, but conscision (which is not the same as directness and bluntness. You can be rude and rambly at the same time), is a relatively easy skill to learn.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think that sounds reasonable (though I wish I actually read the mangas you refer to when you claim you're making wild claims... er, to compare, I mean). I think the 'social gesture' seems a bit... okay, let me put it this way: in my experience, when people ramble obnoxiously and truly are insensitive and have nothing useful to contribute, they -don't- apologize. The people who're actually interesting and have something to contribute and their rambling isn't, in fact, 'inappropriate' are the ones who seem paranoid and over-apologetic. I mean, that's a personal call, but that's how it generally seems.

I guess I feel like this gesture is unnecessary in an informal conversation between people who're well-disposed to (or highly interested in) the subject, and may even come off 'cold' because you're implying heightened formality? Not that I'm ever offended, it's just a feeling of greater discomfort, like -I- have to watch what I say as well, and we can't explore a subject as fluently or fluidly, I guess? But all this is colored by the fact that most of the conversations -I- enjoy are mutually either rambly or dense (not focused on a micro-subject but concerned with several micro-subjects, probably in the same area, just 'cause I'm not a linear thinker and this is more comfortable for me).

Also, while concision is an easy-enough skill to learn, yes, for someone like me (who's naturally multi-focused which tends to mean rambly), the fact that I'm trying to be concise in the first place implies a sort of... stiffness or degree of formality which doesn't seem conducive to casual conversation. Which all depends on how casual you think you're being online in that particular context, which the people involved could easily disagree with, it appears.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

(Wild claims?)

I don't really even tend to notice when people do this, because it's just a background social gesture to me. Since it's a social gesture, it's pretty clear that they don't feel they actually are wasting the other person's time.

What degree of formality people are comfortable with depends on the individuals, and how well they know each other; same is true of organization; for people who prefer to write in a concise way, or or who like making social gestures, it's not uncomfortable. Plus, sometimes people may not really be interested in a subject (because you cannot rely on body language cues online), but discuss out of inertia.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

(The 'wild claims' thing sounds funny... well, even more funny after reading all the MsScribe wank, but I meant that since I always find the things you say totally reasonable/rational+concise, the idea that the comments here (http://worldserpent.livejournal.com/179542.html) are 'tl;dr' seems like a wild claim. Though it's actually more of a 'wild claim'/exaggeration to -say- it's a wild claim, and now I'll just shut up before I sound even more crazy. *coughs*)

I guess it's just this one time the person actually -did- stop talking after saying they're rambling too much-- and it's happened before (that the person says they're rambling & shuts up). I didn't quite... um... remember that there are some people who like making social gestures (I mean, I'm sure there are, all the must-be-polite!wank people are surely one of them). It's also true that people can continue talking out of intertia... though this depresses me & I try to stop cold when I notice such a thing (usually when only rehashing is going on).

Anyway, I only feel slightly put off if I think the person -does- know me in particular enough to know I -don't- go for the whole conciseness -or- politeness/social-gesture thing by nature-- and, I mean, you really barely have to know me for that. But perhaps I totally overestimate what's obvious to people about me-- I know I do, really :>

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

My nanny wrote that. I don't know what you're talking about Ah, that is just my way of warning people that the post is very long. It's a joke. But really, people tend not to read long posts, although this doesn't have anything to do with whether they're bloated or not. They just will save them for later, and often don't get back to them.

There are a lot of people out there who like making social gestures, I think. Also, people do often talk to those they don't know well, and I see the reason for such social markers there.