[ego + fics = wank]
Feb. 24th, 2006 08:09 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaUh, this isn't in response to any one post but kind of an amalgam, built up over time and currently going boom!
Yeah, so I actually think that the reason I'm all for con-crit, anonymous or non-anonymous, by hook or by crook (in theory, because in practice I neither often get it nor give it), is basically because I think there's nothing (that I see as) good that can possibly come of associating the reception of your fic with your own ego, your self-worth, your willingness to write, etcetc.
I mean, many of my friends do make that connection and it's not that I take issue with that, because it's their choice, right? As long as nothing is expected of me, it's their choice. Mostly since most of my friends wouldn't be passive-aggressive about that with me in particular (like, 'either you like/read/feedback my fic nice and easy or the cat gets it' = >:O!!1 I mean... let's just say we don't wanna go there, because that's what I like to call emotional blackmail back in the mother country).
And yeaaah, you could see begging for comments as a form of blackmail as well, though when people do it in a widespread fashion and it's not just pinpointed for extra guilt-trip goodness, that's just. (I was going to say 'normal for fandom', but)... it's just usually in bad taste rather than blackmailing, probably (well, especially in the extreme examples on ff.net where the people are like, 'REVIEW OR THE FIC GETS IT, BITCHES!!1'-- but that's just the extreme, right?) Really, it's v. hard, I think, to say 'I'm so sensitive, love me! I mean, love my fic! I mean, don't be too harsh!' while being cultured & mannered & restrained and all that. I mean, I admit it's rude to flame someone or to just wank all over someone's fic about how blah-blah-blah this-and-that-and-the-other point isn't to their liking. I mean, obviously.
But that doesn't mean it's not also ill-mannered in some way to make a big deal of discouraging and bringing attention to such behavior (which is to say, good manners = being above other people's bad manners, I mean, isn't that what it comes down to? Well, as they say, back in Russia...)
Actually, that's why I won't beta just because of friendship and accept when my friends won't beta for me; that's why the people to whom my ego is actually most vulnerable to (my friends!) are the people I'd depend on to give it to me straight up when a fic needs a lot of work or I'm on some kind of crack (which I frequently am, I mean-- I know I am).
I have a weird relationship with compliments, anyway. They make me embarrassed, man. I think I've always been seen as 'intelligent' or 'gifted' ever since I was a child, and I guess since nearly everybody said it, I started to take it for granted. So like, in a way I understand, of course, that not everyone has been spoiled and some people's egos are fragile things, but. Well. I mean. If you need soft cushiony approbation, why not only show your fic to a trusted circle of those friends who love you and also encourage you? (Except like, that could create its own kind of drama since if your friend doesn't give you love isn't it worse than con-crit from a stranger? Well, maybe.)
Why not just not show it to anybody and get love by, I dunno, giving people cookies? I'm not being sarcastic (well, not too much), either. That's what I did when I started out; I just basically only showed it to my English teacher. I mean, in this sense fandom is a warped thing for a writer's ego, I think, 'cause it's like, it forms these unrealistic expectations, like-- if people love it, they ought to say something. A lot. And if they don't love it, they're MEANIES!!1 >:O! And bad friends! And possibly the woefully uneducated!! And also they don't know fanon!Draco from a hole in their head! Etc.
It's that sense of expectation that just kills me; like, if you've ever gotten feedback from me, you know I don't really con-crit, I just gush at length, because if I don't like it, I won't bother thinking about it in specific and will rant in very general terms about various characterization issues that are my pet peeves, 'cause-- it's never just that fic, y'know? It never is. It's like that rule about happy families in reverse-- bad fics have a lot of similarities to other bad fics, while good fics tend to be pretty unique and beautiful snowflakes (or whatever).
But the sense that one deserves fic-love and ego-stroking from fellow fans (because of like, sympathy? isn't that what 'don't hurt me, my ego is small' implies?), that just makes me want to never ever ever feedback that person. Which is, admittedly, my little neurotic issue, y'know, because the day I consciously stroke someone's fic/ego is the day I become (even more of) a recluse. And this isn't 'cause I never give compliments, 'cause I give 'em in spades when I love something; it's that I never give 'em 'cause they're expected and needed by the person, not the fic. I mean, I don't read the person, I read the fic; true, I often think I'll like the person 'cause I love the fic, and often that works out, but-- it's by no means necessary. The idea that in fandom means ego = fic just turns me off fandom to such a degree I can't even begin to explain it. It makes me just. Speechless.
On the other hand, it's not like I want to have my fic abused-- of course I want it to be liked; doesn't everyone? But I won't enforce that. I won't put my ego out there, one way or the other, to be hurt or soothed, and that's because it's irrelevant, really, to whether Draco was believable when he said 'oh my fucking god, Potter, shut the bloody hell up!!'. And, you know, he probably wouldn't say that quite that way. :>
Though see, I don't actually think most con-crit is useful or whatever, but I've ranted before about how I don't see the 'usefulness' of the binary between 'useful' and 'considerate', because neither motivator works for me. I've only ever gotten 'useful' concrit generally when I asked for it from people whose opinion I respect, and the need to 'usefully educate' my fellow fandomers makes me laugh until I snort Coke up my nose, but so what? I've never even gotten unsolicited con-crit nor have I looked for it far and wide, but my point is that I think the fear and loathing of con-crit causes damage in itself, as well as the comment-wank in general (give me this! no, gimme that! no, this way! nownownownownownowNOW! *facepalm*).
If you just don't find it 'useful', that's fine! More power to you! That's your opinion, your choice in not seeking it out, and has nothing to do with me, especially since I'm not some rabid con-crit-giving fiend by far (waaaay too lazy). The wankiness only happens when it goes from opinion to call onto the masses (whether 'don't do this because I say it's bad!' or 'don't do this because you don't want to hurt my fragile ego, do you? do you?? DO YOU??!').
I think the whole conversation gets muddled with that point, really; it's not about debating the theoretical merits of con-crit from whoever vs. blanket praise from whoever. It's about the relative merits of being up in people's faces one way or the other, y'know? It's like, people operate differently: some want a happy-happy-joy-joy time and some want a thinky-analytical-joy-joy time. Unless you want a call for 'separate but equal' (the meta-people over here; the squee-people over there), I'd say you have to realize that this is how fandom is, and just. I dunno. Get used to our beautiful diversity?? Heh.
Eh, I dunno why the vitriol every time I touch upon this subject; I feel so very sympathetic to people's insecurities when they're not being bashed over my head, I really do. I have insecurities also. I don't trust blanket praise from like, anyone even if I enjoy it, and I don't even know if that's an insecurity or just me being realistic, man. I am, by nature, gentle with people's egos and would never tear apart their fic just out of some sort of misguided need to 'educate'. I really tend to obsess if someone reasonably points out a major flaw in my writing and either I don't post the fic or I tell myself I have to immediately rewrite it and fix it omg!, but.
I can't help but feel offended when people use their vulnerability as a way to emotionally manipulate me, that's all. I know that may not be the intent, but that's what it feels like when people are like, dismissive of what I might say (the theoretical 'I' 'cause it's not generally directed at me) because 'I' am not their friend, or I don't see canon or the purpose/use of fanfic the way they do, or they just plain don't know or trust me. Why do you need to trust me? All you really need to judge what I say is what I say, right? I don't even -want- anyone to listen to me on theoretical or lit-crit issues because they're giving me some 'special priviledge', I want them to listen to me because I make good sense; to hell with special priviledges, I'll sit at the back of the bus, thanks. It's like, I feel like they're putting up a hand and saying 'talk to the ego, talk to the ego'. -.-
This whole deal with 'it's a beta's job' and 'don't step in where you're not wanted' would be fine, would be just fine if the person was like, 'well it's fine even if the other option is for most of you to say nothing at all'. But no, most people still want comments, right? So it's a manipulative thing, which means I sort of lose it a bit. Because person A could always ask or even demand feedback, but, you know, person B could always say 'sorry, not my bag, baby' (or they could make a polite and hopefully brief/well-mannered/etc explanation of this opinion-- 'cause, y'know, public forum), and as long as people get that, I think comment-wank would be a thing of the past. If only.
~~
In conclusion: I know that we all value different things, and you shouldn't necessarily trust other people's opinions 'cause you're not going what they're going for, and so on and so forth. My only issue is when people leave debate, understanding and even mere acceptance of others' fic-values aside and focus on what they need (positive feedback). I can understand that other people don't value the stuff in my recent post about inner and outer character consistency, relationship continuity, all that good stuff; I mean, I can sit there and say 'oh yeah, I really value style and voice and good smut, oh boy do I', and all is well. It's when people don't want to do that we have a problem, don't we.
PS: In light of this, I want to say that if I ever seem that I'm proselytizing with the anti-fanon!Draco stuff or whatever, meaning that I seem to imply my understanding is better than yours, that is not my intent. I just ramble, y'know, and forget to reach out and ask people what they think 'cause I'm a recluse, basically. Um. BUT.
Tell me what you value in fics!!
Yeah, so I actually think that the reason I'm all for con-crit, anonymous or non-anonymous, by hook or by crook (in theory, because in practice I neither often get it nor give it), is basically because I think there's nothing (that I see as) good that can possibly come of associating the reception of your fic with your own ego, your self-worth, your willingness to write, etcetc.
I mean, many of my friends do make that connection and it's not that I take issue with that, because it's their choice, right? As long as nothing is expected of me, it's their choice. Mostly since most of my friends wouldn't be passive-aggressive about that with me in particular (like, 'either you like/read/feedback my fic nice and easy or the cat gets it' = >:O!!1 I mean... let's just say we don't wanna go there, because that's what I like to call emotional blackmail back in the mother country).
And yeaaah, you could see begging for comments as a form of blackmail as well, though when people do it in a widespread fashion and it's not just pinpointed for extra guilt-trip goodness, that's just. (I was going to say 'normal for fandom', but)... it's just usually in bad taste rather than blackmailing, probably (well, especially in the extreme examples on ff.net where the people are like, 'REVIEW OR THE FIC GETS IT, BITCHES!!1'-- but that's just the extreme, right?) Really, it's v. hard, I think, to say 'I'm so sensitive, love me! I mean, love my fic! I mean, don't be too harsh!' while being cultured & mannered & restrained and all that. I mean, I admit it's rude to flame someone or to just wank all over someone's fic about how blah-blah-blah this-and-that-and-the-other point isn't to their liking. I mean, obviously.
But that doesn't mean it's not also ill-mannered in some way to make a big deal of discouraging and bringing attention to such behavior (which is to say, good manners = being above other people's bad manners, I mean, isn't that what it comes down to? Well, as they say, back in Russia...)
Actually, that's why I won't beta just because of friendship and accept when my friends won't beta for me; that's why the people to whom my ego is actually most vulnerable to (my friends!) are the people I'd depend on to give it to me straight up when a fic needs a lot of work or I'm on some kind of crack (which I frequently am, I mean-- I know I am).
I have a weird relationship with compliments, anyway. They make me embarrassed, man. I think I've always been seen as 'intelligent' or 'gifted' ever since I was a child, and I guess since nearly everybody said it, I started to take it for granted. So like, in a way I understand, of course, that not everyone has been spoiled and some people's egos are fragile things, but. Well. I mean. If you need soft cushiony approbation, why not only show your fic to a trusted circle of those friends who love you and also encourage you? (Except like, that could create its own kind of drama since if your friend doesn't give you love isn't it worse than con-crit from a stranger? Well, maybe.)
Why not just not show it to anybody and get love by, I dunno, giving people cookies? I'm not being sarcastic (well, not too much), either. That's what I did when I started out; I just basically only showed it to my English teacher. I mean, in this sense fandom is a warped thing for a writer's ego, I think, 'cause it's like, it forms these unrealistic expectations, like-- if people love it, they ought to say something. A lot. And if they don't love it, they're MEANIES!!1 >:O! And bad friends! And possibly the woefully uneducated!! And also they don't know fanon!Draco from a hole in their head! Etc.
It's that sense of expectation that just kills me; like, if you've ever gotten feedback from me, you know I don't really con-crit, I just gush at length, because if I don't like it, I won't bother thinking about it in specific and will rant in very general terms about various characterization issues that are my pet peeves, 'cause-- it's never just that fic, y'know? It never is. It's like that rule about happy families in reverse-- bad fics have a lot of similarities to other bad fics, while good fics tend to be pretty unique and beautiful snowflakes (or whatever).
But the sense that one deserves fic-love and ego-stroking from fellow fans (because of like, sympathy? isn't that what 'don't hurt me, my ego is small' implies?), that just makes me want to never ever ever feedback that person. Which is, admittedly, my little neurotic issue, y'know, because the day I consciously stroke someone's fic/ego is the day I become (even more of) a recluse. And this isn't 'cause I never give compliments, 'cause I give 'em in spades when I love something; it's that I never give 'em 'cause they're expected and needed by the person, not the fic. I mean, I don't read the person, I read the fic; true, I often think I'll like the person 'cause I love the fic, and often that works out, but-- it's by no means necessary. The idea that in fandom means ego = fic just turns me off fandom to such a degree I can't even begin to explain it. It makes me just. Speechless.
On the other hand, it's not like I want to have my fic abused-- of course I want it to be liked; doesn't everyone? But I won't enforce that. I won't put my ego out there, one way or the other, to be hurt or soothed, and that's because it's irrelevant, really, to whether Draco was believable when he said 'oh my fucking god, Potter, shut the bloody hell up!!'. And, you know, he probably wouldn't say that quite that way. :>
Though see, I don't actually think most con-crit is useful or whatever, but I've ranted before about how I don't see the 'usefulness' of the binary between 'useful' and 'considerate', because neither motivator works for me. I've only ever gotten 'useful' concrit generally when I asked for it from people whose opinion I respect, and the need to 'usefully educate' my fellow fandomers makes me laugh until I snort Coke up my nose, but so what? I've never even gotten unsolicited con-crit nor have I looked for it far and wide, but my point is that I think the fear and loathing of con-crit causes damage in itself, as well as the comment-wank in general (give me this! no, gimme that! no, this way! nownownownownownowNOW! *facepalm*).
If you just don't find it 'useful', that's fine! More power to you! That's your opinion, your choice in not seeking it out, and has nothing to do with me, especially since I'm not some rabid con-crit-giving fiend by far (waaaay too lazy). The wankiness only happens when it goes from opinion to call onto the masses (whether 'don't do this because I say it's bad!' or 'don't do this because you don't want to hurt my fragile ego, do you? do you?? DO YOU??!').
I think the whole conversation gets muddled with that point, really; it's not about debating the theoretical merits of con-crit from whoever vs. blanket praise from whoever. It's about the relative merits of being up in people's faces one way or the other, y'know? It's like, people operate differently: some want a happy-happy-joy-joy time and some want a thinky-analytical-joy-joy time. Unless you want a call for 'separate but equal' (the meta-people over here; the squee-people over there), I'd say you have to realize that this is how fandom is, and just. I dunno. Get used to our beautiful diversity?? Heh.
Eh, I dunno why the vitriol every time I touch upon this subject; I feel so very sympathetic to people's insecurities when they're not being bashed over my head, I really do. I have insecurities also. I don't trust blanket praise from like, anyone even if I enjoy it, and I don't even know if that's an insecurity or just me being realistic, man. I am, by nature, gentle with people's egos and would never tear apart their fic just out of some sort of misguided need to 'educate'. I really tend to obsess if someone reasonably points out a major flaw in my writing and either I don't post the fic or I tell myself I have to immediately rewrite it and fix it omg!, but.
I can't help but feel offended when people use their vulnerability as a way to emotionally manipulate me, that's all. I know that may not be the intent, but that's what it feels like when people are like, dismissive of what I might say (the theoretical 'I' 'cause it's not generally directed at me) because 'I' am not their friend, or I don't see canon or the purpose/use of fanfic the way they do, or they just plain don't know or trust me. Why do you need to trust me? All you really need to judge what I say is what I say, right? I don't even -want- anyone to listen to me on theoretical or lit-crit issues because they're giving me some 'special priviledge', I want them to listen to me because I make good sense; to hell with special priviledges, I'll sit at the back of the bus, thanks. It's like, I feel like they're putting up a hand and saying 'talk to the ego, talk to the ego'. -.-
This whole deal with 'it's a beta's job' and 'don't step in where you're not wanted' would be fine, would be just fine if the person was like, 'well it's fine even if the other option is for most of you to say nothing at all'. But no, most people still want comments, right? So it's a manipulative thing, which means I sort of lose it a bit. Because person A could always ask or even demand feedback, but, you know, person B could always say 'sorry, not my bag, baby' (or they could make a polite and hopefully brief/well-mannered/etc explanation of this opinion-- 'cause, y'know, public forum), and as long as people get that, I think comment-wank would be a thing of the past. If only.
~~
In conclusion: I know that we all value different things, and you shouldn't necessarily trust other people's opinions 'cause you're not going what they're going for, and so on and so forth. My only issue is when people leave debate, understanding and even mere acceptance of others' fic-values aside and focus on what they need (positive feedback). I can understand that other people don't value the stuff in my recent post about inner and outer character consistency, relationship continuity, all that good stuff; I mean, I can sit there and say 'oh yeah, I really value style and voice and good smut, oh boy do I', and all is well. It's when people don't want to do that we have a problem, don't we.
PS: In light of this, I want to say that if I ever seem that I'm proselytizing with the anti-fanon!Draco stuff or whatever, meaning that I seem to imply my understanding is better than yours, that is not my intent. I just ramble, y'know, and forget to reach out and ask people what they think 'cause I'm a recluse, basically. Um. BUT.
Tell me what you value in fics!!
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no subject
Date: 2006-02-25 11:11 pm (UTC)The only thing that gets a bee in my bonnet is when I see people actively disparage the very concept of non-entirely-positive-yet-constructive reviews by bringing their ego into it, and also just saying that since most concrit is secretly people saying they don't like something (and therefore not 'useful'), who has any use for it? Thusly we should all cry loudly about how pointless it is and how fandom is better off without it. Gah. And "oh by the way, my fragile ego sez: REMEMBER TO REVIEW". *headdesk* Especially when it's a BNF saying it, I just get a bit antsy :)
Also, a part of me feels that if there's something 'really big' wrong with a fic, it wouldn't be enough for me to just say it, I'd need to drill it into the writer's skull, and it's very hard to do that if the writer's ego is in the way or they're not even interested in the writing theory stuff and more interested in 'this is the way -I- want things to go'. And that's their prerogative, of course, as long as it's also my prerogative to not read them and/or tell them politely what my issue is (not that -I- would, but someone could).
There's nothing that shuts down my interest in a story faster than just feeling, in the gut, that what's there on the page came from a mind that's obtuse or clueless.
HAHAHAH. This just killed me, y'know :D But I think that sums up every serious problem I've ever had with a fic :)) Like, when I really hate it, usually it's because I feel the writer is just being dense and not seeing something I consider obvious, usually about either human beings in general or characters in specific, or their language-use is atrocious, but then I don't tend to get very far into -those- stories :>
But yeah, if I really enjoy a fic, generally there's a sense of a lively intelligence behind it, a new insight into the characters, something piercing about the flow of words or events-- sparkly, even. With me, um, when I get really jaded and tired of a fandom, it's like I get pet-peeves, like land-mines you could step into, where even if a story is really good, unless it's excellent, I'd get reeeally annoyed at that particular bit of awfulness, y'know? Like a hated characterization, a particular bit of lame excuse-making, something like that. I hate lame excuses in fanfic most of all, so if an otherwise well-constructed fic has one prominent to the plot, I'll really resent it. A lot. -.-
But I love your binary emotional intelligence/storytelling sophistication thing (which I'd generally understand as 'style', but it includes voice and plotting and all that stuff too, which is just rarer in fanfic, I think; I'm really trying to remember well-plotted H/D fics, anyway, and there's a lot fewer of them than emotionally intelligent ones). I think that thing about keeping the reader absorbed-- like, after a certain point, I think I need emotional intelligence to some degree even if the fic itself is well-constructed; I think I 'spent' myself with heavy fanon pretty quickly, in HP at least, and began to need something to engage me on the characterization level because I -read- for characterization after having gone through several hundred H/D plots, y'know :)) Plus, I make a heavy emphasis on the plotting giving me the feel of the 'verse if it's not AU-- like, in other fandoms, I like the sort of adventure fic I could see happening in an episode, that sort of thing, or else something -really- different and crazy, but not some midway craftsmanship.
I -am- pretty forgiving if I really like a story, of course-- isn't everyone? Unless it steps on my toes. I hate it when fics do that :))