[evil, shmevil.]
Jan. 26th, 2006 08:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaSo I was working through the comments to Sister M's supervillains-r-us post, and I realized something amidst all the talk of Voldemort & eternal life and whatnot....
It struck me that I think the most basic definition of 'villain' is really 'someone who prizes the needs and goals of their individual self above or separate from the balance, welfare and existence of other conscious living beings'. Because in the end, there can be no 'villainous act' without it being villainous -to- someone; one can't suck in a vaccuum, in other words. And even if you're not directly doing harm to someone else, your existence will have an -effect- on other people no matter what, unless you do exist in a bubble out in space.
This sort of clues me in to why I was rather disappointed when in Juliet Marillier's 'Wolfskin' (and sequel), she 'fixed' her main villain-like character (the psychopathic!lonely!boy I slashed with the hero-type he loved) by having him 'find god' in relative solitude, far away from 'the affairs of men', only sometimes visited by his son, whom of course he cares for (from a distance). Any 'redemption' that involves some degree of quarantine from 'real life' and humanity in general isn't really worth its weight in beans. And I say this as someone who'd always wanted to be happy by running away and living the life of a hedgewitch on some deserted island, so I know.
This is not to say 'you must always think of other people' or something uber-sappy like that (because I certainly don't plan to stop being a self-centered bitch anytime soon); it's only to say that in making serious decisions that can impact your own balance permanently, you can't -ignore- the effect it will have on others without -risking- that this effect will be negative. Through sheer statistical likelihood, it's probable that eventually, ignoring these sorts of environmental or personal ramifications will create a serious problem somewhere. In other words, karma will kick your ass in the form of either other people or a natural disaster, if you wait around long enough; and karma doesn't merely work in an 'eye for an eye' sort of way, but rather through aspects of life you weren't paying attention to by separating yourself and say, trying to or becoming immortal.
And I think 'separate from' is just as important as 'above' (which implies at least the possibility of a claim of control or dominance). I think while 'above' makes you an asshole (even if you're a 'heroic type' in a story), the 'separate from' makes you dangerously close to 'psychopath', which in itself has all sorts of dangers were you to somehow -acquire- some sort of position of power.
I have to add the disclaimer that I think of the terms 'evil' and 'villain' as pretty tongue-in-cheek on my part, partly because calling characters or people 'villainous' separates them from the rest of (non-villainous or heroic) humanity and in that partly mirrors their mistake/offense in the first place.
In the end, 'villain' is an archetype; by definition, it would be something like the 'Shadow' in Jungian psychology, and therefore present, lurking in the background of everyone's unconscious mind. The 'dark' part of oneself can become dominant in any individual, or that individual could become overwhelmed by certain drives (to dominate, destroy, attain superiority, whatever), but at base the individual logically remains a human being, and therefore 'on a level' with the rest of us. Therefore, I might say that the urge to become 'the ultimate hero' or do-gooder is as fraught with peril and potential darkness as the urge to control a nation or some such.
A lot of this is just my own philosophy, of course; in my mind, everything (living and non-living) tends to exist in a state of balance, and even periods or moments of unrest are a part of that larger balance, existing by the merit of corresponding rest and peace. If a human being tries to separate themselves from the flow of living things (which must all live and die, love and hate, make mistakes and learn and forget to learn, the whole gamut), even for the sake of peace and clarity, let alone power-- that human being isn't attaining godhood or holiness as they might believe, because by definition one cannot transcend one's own identity as 'human' or 'fallible' or 'mortal'. One can only become delusional, disconnected, lost in dreams, prone to even greater flights of folly (meaning, when in utter isolation either physically or mentally, you start to think you can't fail, that your dreams can be willed into reality through some sort of act of dominion over reality). And of course one can always make one's dreams true if it's within reach of a combination of luck and effort, but-- one thing you have to remember is, the universe always wins (and you lose).
In the end, what I'm trying to say is, I would sooner say that Voldemort or any character with a desire for recognition, control and eternal life is more dumb and delusional than 'evil'. It's not that a 'Harry' will thwart them; it's that they always inevitably thwart themselves, because winning against what amounts to the laws of nature (yin always implies yang) is impossible by definition while existing within its metaphysical confines, unlike gods.
~~
EDIT - In the spirit of 'thinking of other people', meme!
1. Omg, your writing smites me, even though it is sad, because I couldn't get myself to read most of the stuff you wrote in my main fandom ('cause like, you'd tended to write rarepairs and... non-H/D stuff... sorry). But! I think you're truly one of the most subtle and beautiful fanfic writers I know, able to slice and dice and -kill-, all under the surface, with a gesture or an implied event or basically just a lot of subtext. I so worship that, there aren't even words. I mean, I realize some people would say both your writing and my approach are 'too stylistic', but your utter command of language and emotion, the way you pace things so subtly and precisely-- especially in your latest fandom, where thank heavens you write my OTP-- oh man. Who needs plot? You have POWER.
2. Wah. I think you've gotten so much better, so much more precise and knowing about what effect you're going for, so much less self-indulgent-- I think! But I don't know for sure, since you don't write for a pairing I have any desire to read anymore :( I don't really follow writers fandom to fandom; I dunno, I'm just always too distracted by everything else there is to read. But! You always had this really great grip on showing how love works, how to portray infatuation in such a convincing, overwhelmingly -genuine- way; now, I think everything's become a lot tighter, more balanced, less self-indulgent (maybe). Also, the way you often create impact and structure through thematic sentences, a rhythm throughout a story-- it always hits me on a primal, instinctual level. You don't so much hint and strike from below the surface as break through-- like a fist through paper. And I think you'll only get better.
3. Oh man, I know I haven't read your writing for ages, but how could I not include you? I know some people don't understand why I worship your fic, but I doooo, because your style is just amazing-- concise, elegant, never brittle but always slinky. You can condense emotion and character motivation so deftly without telling-not-showing, with little glimpses and pokes and prods, subtextual and textual and just-- right on target. You make language your -bitch-, transmitting both your own voice and the characters' voices simultaneously in a way most writers can't begin to match. Your grasp on dialogue is the stuff my dreams are made of, and you are just consistently, remarkably -yourself-. Also, I just love your sense of humor, always evident, always silly and yet biting. You so rock my world, even though I haven't read anything of yours in more than a year.
4. Aaahhh, if only you -knew- what a great writer you are, dear. Your wonderful, rich amount of detail, the true -sensuality- of your work, the realism in both emotionality and physical space, the attention to voice-- you're one of a kind, and I appreciate everything you write that I've read even if I avoid most of the rarepair and 'other' pairing stuff you do so much of. I'm a little afraid you'll convert me if I -do- read it, and in fact that one time I read a rarepair of yours I -was- sold. It was a disquieting experience, haha. Plus, oh my gahds, how I love your Draco. He's just such a -boy- and such a little bitch and yet so sympathetic. I will always adore him, and you, and I suspect I'm just not very objective about that, haha.
5. Oh man... if I describe what I like about your writing you will of course immediately know it's you, because hey, -everyone- likes that about your writing. But what is there, is really good! You -are- really funny, your snark tends to be biting and virtually leaping off the page, your character dynamics are always zingy, and the sex-- not overly descriptive, not overly kink-driven, just physical and joyous and -dirty-, just how I like it! Your dialogue, whether or not it's snarky, just always feels -real- and is nearly audible, which can often by itself carry a story (though that's the challenge, not to rely on that ability, I guess). I do think you have other talents you're underutilizing, talents for description and theme-building and atmosphere, and I do hope eventually you'll grow more interested in exploring them, because I totally wanna see you be the best you can be. Like in the Army, yeah. The Porn Army.
6. Hahah, I guess I'm not -as- experienced with your writing as with that of the other people listed, but I -really- love it, mostly for the authenticity of the characters and the balance between humor and angst/pathos you bring to your stories. There's a sense of immediacy, even in the shorter and pornier charactrer vignettes, though what I really like is when you dig deeper and darker. I really think you have a gift for making the darker emotions seem natural-- not twisted or 'out there' but believable, normal in the context of those teenagers and their lives. I love how your characters can come alive when their emotions get more and more dangerous and out of control-- and yet it's never 'emo', y'know, never stylized and always grounded in their everyday interactions and histories with each other, in the humorous moments that balance it all out. I think you get lost in the easier, more surface sketches because they must come so naturally, but I really appreciate when you really get down and dirty on the emotional level, 'cause you simply do it better than most writing for the pairing. And! You got me to read several non-OTP pairings by now, I hope you realize! Bah!
7. God, I don't even know what to say about you; would 'I worship your writing' suffice? Hahah, nah, it's not blind adulation (that would make me feel bad about my own judgment). I just think you're really very very good in -all- the criteria-- emotional, stylistic, dialogue, dramatic, plotwise. Your characters always come alive, whether or not they're OCs, your voice is always both unique and suited for the character, your plot-arcs are interesting and rather creative, I think, and you excel at both the novel-length and the short story. When you're exploring the character's darker sides, you're pretty fearless in terms of how far you'll go and what you'll put them through-- but they're still charming, lovable, understandable. Your humor is well-documented and your ability to reach wide audiences equally so, so I need not say anything on that. You genuinely inspire me to be a better writer just by listening to you talk about your work, and I seriously feel proud I know you, 'cause later I can brag that I knew her back when she was in HP fandom, hahahah. ♥
8. It's really been ages since I read your fics, but they always left such an impression on me that I still can't help listing you here. There are other writers I -could- have listed that I also think are great or I've read lots of, but your stuff is just so memorably -yours- in style and atmosphere, in the utterly unique spin you put on the characters and their setting, at least in the HP fandom. There's always been a particular brand of melancholy intensity, of surreal pathos in your work that really appealed to me; the way you write just -hurts-, but not in any melodramatic overt sort of emotionality, which I really admire. You capture moments and emotions, nightmarish and grotesque yet impossibly immediate and full of sensory detail, like they were preserved in amber. And every story of yours is different, even though there a writer's 'voice' that's consistent-- you don't fall into that pitfall of thematic repetition a lot of the more stylistic writers do. I wish you wrote more, man; well, in a fandom I could read.
9. Heyo! Your writing does have that sort of thematic constancy, though of a very enjoyable sort. You're another one of those writers who does either comedy or pathos mode, though I think comedy comes more easily & frequently to you, and you get more carried away by all the silly/ridiculous possibilities a lot (enjoyable for me, but eventually limiting for you). I think your style is very much your own and always refreshing, but your command of achieving where you were meaning to go is underdeveloped still. However! You have time, and talent, and a wicked sense of humor I really dig, and my willingness to read stuff even if it's in other fandoms, just 'cause... well, I got your back.
10. Wheeee, youuuuu!! I loved it when your writing was misty and magical and delicate (perhaps too much so), and I love it when you grew more precise and down-to-earth and harsh, realistic without being limited by the commonplace. Your gift for description is nearly unparalleled in my fandom experience, but your capacity to quietly but completely -pierce- a person with emotional resonances is your true gift, I think. Your characters sort of -soak up- emotion like sponges, bleeding sadness or love in ever-more precise, delicate drips, word by word. Your writing has gotten a lot more restrained, and I've mixed feelings about that, but you achieve the same sort of command of mood and characterization you used to get with dense descriptions through dialogue and action. You've gotten so... down-to-earth in your writing of the characters, which just really endears them to me. I always feel like I'm meeting an old friend, even if it's a character I haven't seen you write much before. It's like you love them all, and so do I.
It struck me that I think the most basic definition of 'villain' is really 'someone who prizes the needs and goals of their individual self above or separate from the balance, welfare and existence of other conscious living beings'. Because in the end, there can be no 'villainous act' without it being villainous -to- someone; one can't suck in a vaccuum, in other words. And even if you're not directly doing harm to someone else, your existence will have an -effect- on other people no matter what, unless you do exist in a bubble out in space.
This sort of clues me in to why I was rather disappointed when in Juliet Marillier's 'Wolfskin' (and sequel), she 'fixed' her main villain-like character (the psychopathic!lonely!boy I slashed with the hero-type he loved) by having him 'find god' in relative solitude, far away from 'the affairs of men', only sometimes visited by his son, whom of course he cares for (from a distance). Any 'redemption' that involves some degree of quarantine from 'real life' and humanity in general isn't really worth its weight in beans. And I say this as someone who'd always wanted to be happy by running away and living the life of a hedgewitch on some deserted island, so I know.
This is not to say 'you must always think of other people' or something uber-sappy like that (because I certainly don't plan to stop being a self-centered bitch anytime soon); it's only to say that in making serious decisions that can impact your own balance permanently, you can't -ignore- the effect it will have on others without -risking- that this effect will be negative. Through sheer statistical likelihood, it's probable that eventually, ignoring these sorts of environmental or personal ramifications will create a serious problem somewhere. In other words, karma will kick your ass in the form of either other people or a natural disaster, if you wait around long enough; and karma doesn't merely work in an 'eye for an eye' sort of way, but rather through aspects of life you weren't paying attention to by separating yourself and say, trying to or becoming immortal.
And I think 'separate from' is just as important as 'above' (which implies at least the possibility of a claim of control or dominance). I think while 'above' makes you an asshole (even if you're a 'heroic type' in a story), the 'separate from' makes you dangerously close to 'psychopath', which in itself has all sorts of dangers were you to somehow -acquire- some sort of position of power.
I have to add the disclaimer that I think of the terms 'evil' and 'villain' as pretty tongue-in-cheek on my part, partly because calling characters or people 'villainous' separates them from the rest of (non-villainous or heroic) humanity and in that partly mirrors their mistake/offense in the first place.
In the end, 'villain' is an archetype; by definition, it would be something like the 'Shadow' in Jungian psychology, and therefore present, lurking in the background of everyone's unconscious mind. The 'dark' part of oneself can become dominant in any individual, or that individual could become overwhelmed by certain drives (to dominate, destroy, attain superiority, whatever), but at base the individual logically remains a human being, and therefore 'on a level' with the rest of us. Therefore, I might say that the urge to become 'the ultimate hero' or do-gooder is as fraught with peril and potential darkness as the urge to control a nation or some such.
A lot of this is just my own philosophy, of course; in my mind, everything (living and non-living) tends to exist in a state of balance, and even periods or moments of unrest are a part of that larger balance, existing by the merit of corresponding rest and peace. If a human being tries to separate themselves from the flow of living things (which must all live and die, love and hate, make mistakes and learn and forget to learn, the whole gamut), even for the sake of peace and clarity, let alone power-- that human being isn't attaining godhood or holiness as they might believe, because by definition one cannot transcend one's own identity as 'human' or 'fallible' or 'mortal'. One can only become delusional, disconnected, lost in dreams, prone to even greater flights of folly (meaning, when in utter isolation either physically or mentally, you start to think you can't fail, that your dreams can be willed into reality through some sort of act of dominion over reality). And of course one can always make one's dreams true if it's within reach of a combination of luck and effort, but-- one thing you have to remember is, the universe always wins (and you lose).
In the end, what I'm trying to say is, I would sooner say that Voldemort or any character with a desire for recognition, control and eternal life is more dumb and delusional than 'evil'. It's not that a 'Harry' will thwart them; it's that they always inevitably thwart themselves, because winning against what amounts to the laws of nature (yin always implies yang) is impossible by definition while existing within its metaphysical confines, unlike gods.
~~
EDIT - In the spirit of 'thinking of other people', meme!
1. Omg, your writing smites me, even though it is sad, because I couldn't get myself to read most of the stuff you wrote in my main fandom ('cause like, you'd tended to write rarepairs and... non-H/D stuff... sorry). But! I think you're truly one of the most subtle and beautiful fanfic writers I know, able to slice and dice and -kill-, all under the surface, with a gesture or an implied event or basically just a lot of subtext. I so worship that, there aren't even words. I mean, I realize some people would say both your writing and my approach are 'too stylistic', but your utter command of language and emotion, the way you pace things so subtly and precisely-- especially in your latest fandom, where thank heavens you write my OTP-- oh man. Who needs plot? You have POWER.
2. Wah. I think you've gotten so much better, so much more precise and knowing about what effect you're going for, so much less self-indulgent-- I think! But I don't know for sure, since you don't write for a pairing I have any desire to read anymore :( I don't really follow writers fandom to fandom; I dunno, I'm just always too distracted by everything else there is to read. But! You always had this really great grip on showing how love works, how to portray infatuation in such a convincing, overwhelmingly -genuine- way; now, I think everything's become a lot tighter, more balanced, less self-indulgent (maybe). Also, the way you often create impact and structure through thematic sentences, a rhythm throughout a story-- it always hits me on a primal, instinctual level. You don't so much hint and strike from below the surface as break through-- like a fist through paper. And I think you'll only get better.
3. Oh man, I know I haven't read your writing for ages, but how could I not include you? I know some people don't understand why I worship your fic, but I doooo, because your style is just amazing-- concise, elegant, never brittle but always slinky. You can condense emotion and character motivation so deftly without telling-not-showing, with little glimpses and pokes and prods, subtextual and textual and just-- right on target. You make language your -bitch-, transmitting both your own voice and the characters' voices simultaneously in a way most writers can't begin to match. Your grasp on dialogue is the stuff my dreams are made of, and you are just consistently, remarkably -yourself-. Also, I just love your sense of humor, always evident, always silly and yet biting. You so rock my world, even though I haven't read anything of yours in more than a year.
4. Aaahhh, if only you -knew- what a great writer you are, dear. Your wonderful, rich amount of detail, the true -sensuality- of your work, the realism in both emotionality and physical space, the attention to voice-- you're one of a kind, and I appreciate everything you write that I've read even if I avoid most of the rarepair and 'other' pairing stuff you do so much of. I'm a little afraid you'll convert me if I -do- read it, and in fact that one time I read a rarepair of yours I -was- sold. It was a disquieting experience, haha. Plus, oh my gahds, how I love your Draco. He's just such a -boy- and such a little bitch and yet so sympathetic. I will always adore him, and you, and I suspect I'm just not very objective about that, haha.
5. Oh man... if I describe what I like about your writing you will of course immediately know it's you, because hey, -everyone- likes that about your writing. But what is there, is really good! You -are- really funny, your snark tends to be biting and virtually leaping off the page, your character dynamics are always zingy, and the sex-- not overly descriptive, not overly kink-driven, just physical and joyous and -dirty-, just how I like it! Your dialogue, whether or not it's snarky, just always feels -real- and is nearly audible, which can often by itself carry a story (though that's the challenge, not to rely on that ability, I guess). I do think you have other talents you're underutilizing, talents for description and theme-building and atmosphere, and I do hope eventually you'll grow more interested in exploring them, because I totally wanna see you be the best you can be. Like in the Army, yeah. The Porn Army.
6. Hahah, I guess I'm not -as- experienced with your writing as with that of the other people listed, but I -really- love it, mostly for the authenticity of the characters and the balance between humor and angst/pathos you bring to your stories. There's a sense of immediacy, even in the shorter and pornier charactrer vignettes, though what I really like is when you dig deeper and darker. I really think you have a gift for making the darker emotions seem natural-- not twisted or 'out there' but believable, normal in the context of those teenagers and their lives. I love how your characters can come alive when their emotions get more and more dangerous and out of control-- and yet it's never 'emo', y'know, never stylized and always grounded in their everyday interactions and histories with each other, in the humorous moments that balance it all out. I think you get lost in the easier, more surface sketches because they must come so naturally, but I really appreciate when you really get down and dirty on the emotional level, 'cause you simply do it better than most writing for the pairing. And! You got me to read several non-OTP pairings by now, I hope you realize! Bah!
7. God, I don't even know what to say about you; would 'I worship your writing' suffice? Hahah, nah, it's not blind adulation (that would make me feel bad about my own judgment). I just think you're really very very good in -all- the criteria-- emotional, stylistic, dialogue, dramatic, plotwise. Your characters always come alive, whether or not they're OCs, your voice is always both unique and suited for the character, your plot-arcs are interesting and rather creative, I think, and you excel at both the novel-length and the short story. When you're exploring the character's darker sides, you're pretty fearless in terms of how far you'll go and what you'll put them through-- but they're still charming, lovable, understandable. Your humor is well-documented and your ability to reach wide audiences equally so, so I need not say anything on that. You genuinely inspire me to be a better writer just by listening to you talk about your work, and I seriously feel proud I know you, 'cause later I can brag that I knew her back when she was in HP fandom, hahahah. ♥
8. It's really been ages since I read your fics, but they always left such an impression on me that I still can't help listing you here. There are other writers I -could- have listed that I also think are great or I've read lots of, but your stuff is just so memorably -yours- in style and atmosphere, in the utterly unique spin you put on the characters and their setting, at least in the HP fandom. There's always been a particular brand of melancholy intensity, of surreal pathos in your work that really appealed to me; the way you write just -hurts-, but not in any melodramatic overt sort of emotionality, which I really admire. You capture moments and emotions, nightmarish and grotesque yet impossibly immediate and full of sensory detail, like they were preserved in amber. And every story of yours is different, even though there a writer's 'voice' that's consistent-- you don't fall into that pitfall of thematic repetition a lot of the more stylistic writers do. I wish you wrote more, man; well, in a fandom I could read.
9. Heyo! Your writing does have that sort of thematic constancy, though of a very enjoyable sort. You're another one of those writers who does either comedy or pathos mode, though I think comedy comes more easily & frequently to you, and you get more carried away by all the silly/ridiculous possibilities a lot (enjoyable for me, but eventually limiting for you). I think your style is very much your own and always refreshing, but your command of achieving where you were meaning to go is underdeveloped still. However! You have time, and talent, and a wicked sense of humor I really dig, and my willingness to read stuff even if it's in other fandoms, just 'cause... well, I got your back.
10. Wheeee, youuuuu!! I loved it when your writing was misty and magical and delicate (perhaps too much so), and I love it when you grew more precise and down-to-earth and harsh, realistic without being limited by the commonplace. Your gift for description is nearly unparalleled in my fandom experience, but your capacity to quietly but completely -pierce- a person with emotional resonances is your true gift, I think. Your characters sort of -soak up- emotion like sponges, bleeding sadness or love in ever-more precise, delicate drips, word by word. Your writing has gotten a lot more restrained, and I've mixed feelings about that, but you achieve the same sort of command of mood and characterization you used to get with dense descriptions through dialogue and action. You've gotten so... down-to-earth in your writing of the characters, which just really endears them to me. I always feel like I'm meeting an old friend, even if it's a character I haven't seen you write much before. It's like you love them all, and so do I.
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Date: 2006-01-31 06:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 06:49 pm (UTC)