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[reenka]

...Can one actually be pretentious but not insecure...?? This is a theoretical question, understand. Pretentiousness is something I find difficult to grasp mostly because it involves uh, wanting the approval of other people(?) and/or wanting to impress people(??) and/or uh, pretending you are something you're not. (As in, well, why would you do that unless you have self-esteem issues?) So basically, are all pretentious people secretly crying inside that they suck and no one loves them?

This is vaguely related to me thinking (after a marathon Draco-talk session with Madames Maya & Magpie-- I think my brain is still buzzing gently while naked Dracos spin about & about) that one of the major things I like about Draco is that as attention-starved and drama-queeny and whiny & narcissistic (and probably insecure as all hell) as he is, he's not pretentious in the sense that he never pretends to be anything but himself. He just -is- whoever he is, and while he can mask some emotion fairly well (not nearly as well as fanon!Draco, but we just won't go there), he doesn't seem to project a front. If he did, I would find him so difficult to like as to be unsalvageable (which is why I really do hate fanon!Draco... somehow, he seems to take that little bitchy-yet-cute shtick and make it into something manipulative & therefore not at all cute). And yes-- Draco is all about the cute, obviously. Obviously!!

I think I always like people who're honestly bitchy and needy and annoying, while disliking people who try to cover up these traits and 'act good' or 'bad' or 'cool' or whatever. Draco is simply too sucky at being cool to pull it off anyway. I mean, people would laugh. I would laugh. Harry would laugh. It would not be of the good. (This is why I love Transfigurations, partly-- it took fanon!Draco and made Harry laugh at him and mock him and not be impressed, which is so my dream come true. I mean, if there's anyone who likes pretentious 'coolness' less than me, it's Harry. It even turned him off his -dad- in that pensieve scene in OoTP, okay. Hello.)

I also realized that my opinion of Luna drops like 300% when I finally get reminded that yeah, she admitted to being lonely & desperate for company in HBP (multiple times, apparently). At least, it drops my ability to really want to get into her head, because in many ways it breaks type-- it becomes a less interesting character to me if she's going to do the Remus thing and need acceptance. I mean, clearly everyone (not psychotic) needs acceptance, but when you have a person with unique/heretical views, to need that acceptance so openly and uncomplicatedly kind of makes me question their intelligence, y'know? Like, you need some degree of independence and voluntary social isolation to be a free thinker. That's just how it works. Only fake quacks travel in herds, y'know? (That doesn't make sense at first glance, I know, but. This is, after all, why I admire lots of goths & indie kids & hippies & ravers & skaters & nerds & gamers and so on and so forth, but never became one.)
    It doesn't make sense that she'd be so easy to get close to and get along with if she's been snubbed so long and she truly still believes things other people would laugh at. It just doesn't work that way as far as I know.

I mean, it works if she -allows- company and gives people a chance-- not being too invested, that's easy. But you know, actually seriously needing attention creates a whole different type of personality altogether, it seems to me....

...In other news: I am so uncool, I know, but I will -never- bloody get an S2 layout, ahahah. -.-;

Comments

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Can one actually be pretentious but not insecure...??

I think you just answered your own question XD.

he's not pretentious in the sense that he never pretends to be anything but himself.

I think he does. He pretends he matters to Harry in some conscious way (in Harry's head, I mean) for most of the books, when in fact that only occurs in the first one. He pretends his dad has more power than he does, probably because daddy does as well. He pretends to be knowing of the Dark side's activities definitely more than he does. And in HBP he pretends to be more in control of his DE problems than he obviously is. So yes, I do think he's pretentious. But I still love him.

I think I always like people who're honestly bitchy and needy and annoying, while disliking people who try to cover up these traits and 'act good' or 'bad' or 'cool' or whatever. Draco is simply too sucky at being cool to pull it off anyway.

That doesn't mean he doesn't try.

It becomes a less interesting character to me if she's going to do the Remus thing and need acceptance.

Really? Because it doesn't to me. I get just the opposite. Nobody's an island. Everybody wants acceptance. A character without this is pointless and badly written. Remus takes it to that extra level because of the combination of his natural personality and his little furry problem, but one could easily argue all the psycho-shit Luna makes up is compensation for her desire to be liked - an escape into a fantasy world where if she wants a non-existant entity to like her, it will. It doesn't lower her intelligence at all, just makes her human. Often those with higher intelligences want to be liked more to know they still have some sort of basic connection with the others around them that is more difficult to attain otherwise because of their different views on life (and potential family situations).

Only fake quacks travel in herds, y'know? (That doesn't make sense at first glance, I know, but. This is, after all, why I admire lots of goths & indie kids & hippies & ravers & skaters & nerds & gamers and so on and so forth, but never became one.)

Dude, you just made two completely contradictory statements at once. What the shit?

But you know, actually seriously needing attention creates a whole different type of personality altogether, it seems to me....

Not really. There's a difference between the basic need for acknowledgement and acceptance, and true attention whoring. James & Sirius were undoubtably the latter, and quite pretentious (and thus, probably insecure as well). Remus was the former, in many ways, because he, whilst still being insecure, had bigger hurdles to overcome in creating real intimate relationships with people. Which is why he didn't really try and stop their pranks when he was a Prefect, because the Marauders were too important to him, but Sirius was happy to jeapordise the group's, Remus's (and Snape's) happiness & potential life for the sake of a prank.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, you know, I don't quite see delusional and/or megalomaniacal as being the same as 'pretentious'. I mean, it should be obvious that Draco pretends things to himself and/or is in denial, but at the same time I associate pretentiousness with a certain -sort- of pompousness, I guess. Like, more like Percy, maybe--? Not quite Hermione, but something more like that, where your delusions are mostly about your own identity-- not just 'having airs' or self-perception problems but trying to act as being more educated/intelligent/cool than you are and being successful-- I guess I just can't see someone being unsuccessfully pretentious. I mean... well, you could say Draco is, but his lack of success is what endears him to me, I guess...??

Anyway, any claim to loving/hating Draco or Luna is obviously not something relevant to any argument anyway-- it's not like you can make any objective statements about that. Like, what would I say? 'No, Draco sucks and doesn't deserve love. The end.' ^^;;;

Some people, especially very introverted and idiosyncratic and self-obsessed or creativity-obsessed people -are- basically unhealthy enough to be islands; I mean, it may not be -normal- but it happens. I personally come very close to the boundary here: I do care about acceptance somewhat, but used to care nearly not at all, and I wasn't repressing so much as barely noticing peoples' existence, y'know? I mean, the phrase 'off in her own little world' may as well have been coined about child!me. It wasn't like I wasn't able to relate to people or didn't like them, I just-- didn't need their company, mostly. So to me, it's not so weird. I realize everyone needs company/acceptance/sociality to -some- degree, I was only talking about the degree to which one is -motivated- by seeking it out. And even now, I'm motivated almost not at all by that. Does this make me healthy? No, but I still exist. I won't comment on being interesting as a character or not, ahahah-- I do think human interaction is the basis of most storytelling, and change would be the obvious dramatic focus of writing about an antisocial or asocial person, but that doesn't make the parts of the story where they don't want company above all else or aren't lonely automatically uninteresting to me, at least.

I think everyone wants to be liked by others, but the degree to which this desire manifests truly depends more on one's level of introversion and/or the presence or absense of some sort of pathology and the way you were raised, etc. I grew up spending -lots- of time alone; it truly and genuinely doesn't bother me. I truly would be fine if people left me alone, period. I would be a bit sad, but fine, really.

There was always an issue of self-projection with me & Luna and I always admitted that (which is why I barely ever write her, easy as it may come). My only point was that I like her less now-- and how are you going to argue with that? Well, I -do-; I never liked her that much in the first place, just identified with her, which is different.

With the quacks/weirdo-groups admiration vs. non-admiration/avoidance... well, that's a central contradiction to my character :P I have lots of them... lots and lots, and all really there, ahahah. I do manage both to admire 'cool' funky weirdo types and look down on if they travel in packs, both at the same time. I'm... weird like that. It's not so much hypocritical as genuinely a conflict in me.

Well, that's what I meant by 'seriously' needing attention. Remus isn't like Luna in that his weirdness/oddness is imposed rather than inborn; if you choose to see Luna as truly a free-thinker and/or a daydream believer, etcetc, then really needing acknowledgement & acceptance to a heavy degree doesn't fit because you learn at an early age it ain't gonna happen, and you deal. Besides this, people who're easily swayed by others aren't likely to become free thinkers in the first place. There's a certain amount of self-imposed isolation that's involved, besides just the others'-imposed kind. But this is all rooted in my own experience, which is why I said I identify with her less now in the first place.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Shit, Mozilla ate my last comment, anyway...

Pretentiousness is pretentiousness to me, whether it's accompanied by pompousness or not. So both Draco and Percy are pretentious to me, but Percy is far more pompous. It's the mark of the bureaucrat. And you can still be pretentious or pompous and be a total loser. Ala, Draco and Percy XD.

but that doesn't make the parts of the story where they don't want company above all else or aren't lonely automatically uninteresting to me, at least.

Yes well, I don't think I need to point out that you're not exactly the average reader of certain materials. ;)

I would be a bit sad, but fine, really.

But you'd still be sad. Thus, you want interaction of some form in some way. To write a character that doesn't want this in any way is to write a) someone with serious mental disorders or b) to write badly.

Remus isn't like Luna in that his weirdness/oddness is imposed rather than inborn

I dunno. I've met real people who are like Luna or worse through environmental factors rather than anything that's "inborn" into them. Especially in the lacking-mothers department. So in a way you could still argue her environment has imposed it on her. Luna's not so much swayed by others than just plain delusional (and, like I said, probably consciously as an escape mechanism) like Trelawney. They both have to hide away in their towers/heads for one reason or another, but still crave some sort of acceptance from the world around them. Really, I hate the term "free thinker" because it's a load of bullshit, no matter how you look at it. Luna swallows the delusional bullshit her father prints, and Trelawney swallows the hippy-shit every new-age gimp produces around the world. There's nothing "free" about them. They're as trapped in their own heads as the next person who has far better interpersonal skills.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, umm, that's why I said I don't have the greatest grasp of pretentiousness (or even pompousness) in the first place-- I think while I might have some(?? uh?? that I'm unaware of), I still have little enough desire to impress anyone or uh, care about people's opinion that it puzzles me. Normally I would be okay with understanding foreign traits, but something clicks weirdly with this one, I dunno. *sigh* Though I basically agree with you that I shouldn't mix up pretentiousness and pompousness.

Anyway, I was never denying I or anyone without a serious mental disorder wouldn't want companionship-- point was the -degree- to which you let the desire for it motivate your social behavior. Me personally-- it motivates my behavior kind of in the opposite direction, because I actively swerve to avoid passerby, y'know? Though it seems fruitless to seriously compare my theoretical amount of mental damage & Luna's, somehow... -.-;;

I suppose on some level you're right & Luna -is- just plain delusional (and/or mad), but I think there's enough ways in which she's perceptive or is shown to see things more clearly & calmly than others, especially when it has nothing to do with magical creatures. I think I take the magical creatures more metaphorically, because while -in context- we know that of course no such things exist in JKR's world & JKR knows, it doesn't -have- to be true, you know? I think her approach is valid enough because I think she's capable of being swayed by evidence, though this belief isn't necessarily grounded in anything but personal gut feeling. Bleh.

Most of my resistance here is because I think it -is- possible (merely rare) to think freely, or at least rather closer to it than you seem to think, ahahah. As I tried to tell you, my asocialness was worse when I was a small child, though my actual social skills were probably better in some ways (ie, I felt more comfortable with making friends, maybe). I don't think you could entirely make a case that environment forced this personality upon me, y'know? And I had a mother & a (distant but present) father until the age of 10. I didn't 'hide away' when I was like, 4, even though I did later doing the same thing; I just... uh... well, was naturally introspective/dreamy. It's a personality type, not necessarily a defect. I wasn't escaping anything (as in, I had a loving mother & father, some friends, no overt ostracism in kindergarten, was cute and well-enough liked, etc), I was just exploring.

It's true that Luna swallows her father's BS, and that bothers me now more than before. I never just believed anyone (or anything) blindly-- you may choose not to believe this, of course~:) By 'free thinker' I just meant someone who thinks for themselves, and uh yeah, those people do exist~:)) Just v. few of them.