(round and round we go)

[reenka]

Okay, sekrit confession time: sometimes I like H/D fluff. :( It... doesn't happen often, but. :( It's the -cuteness-... it's like... the way I read fluffy shoujo against my WILL. I cringe and groan and yet... there it is-- drawing me in, mesmerizing me. Fluff... fluff is truly evil.

But yeah... there are times when I just have to look at myself sternly and say: Reena, you -have- to start liking more nice people. And, you know, in reality, I have a number of friends I'd say are, um, even -too- nice, you know, so kind and generous and considerate it hurts (though honestly, they tend to have rather killer dark sides, too-- I should know, I look for them). I mean, many people also think -I'm- a Hufflepuff (and yes, you're all wrong, muwahaha, etc).

Anyway, it's less that I don't like lovingkindness in a person and more that I hate any sort of lip-service paid to it, perhaps. So when people -praise- another person's lovingkindness, I get suspicious. It's like, if it were genuine, somehow I feel you wouldn't need to speak of it-- or, I dunno, preach it, maybe. You wouldn't need to isolate it as if it's intrinsically superior to say, oh, -logical thought-; point and coo, so to speak. Like, oh, he's so -sweet-, I wish -I- had a boyfriend like that, waaaah. Bleh. That really puts me off my supper, actually. (Not that the sexualization of cruelty is any more appetizing, really.)
    Though possibly this raises the question of what -doesn't- turn me off (but then, I'm feeling particularly grouchy at the moment.)

Regardless, I suspect I see kindness differently than most-- as in, I don't either worship it like the touchy-feely types would or scoff at it like rationalist types would-- at least, I don't think it has to be the opposite from justice or reason or -truth-. As in, the so-called cold truth. As far as I'm concerned, either you have honesty -and- kindness, or you have neither honesty -nor- kindness.

All of this is to say, I love Lucifer and I'm not about to say, 'even though he's unkind'.
    
    Hahah, yeah, unsurprisingly to anyone who knows me, I'm currently deeply in love with `Lucifer', the Sandman spin-off. Naturally, it has all sorts of riffs on Christian mythology (which I'm vaguely obsessed with), the nature of dirty bastards and possibly also the symbolic nature of the universe at large. Which all sounds pretty pretentious to most people, I guess, so I guess I should also say there's lots of fighting and this fallen wise-ass cherub straight out of a Joss vehicle. But me... well, me, I just love this Lucifer, personification of Will, first, best, ultimate Rebel With A Cause, and all-around hardcore individualist. *sigh* Remember that part where I said my highest ideal is being true to yourself...? Yeah. Hi.

Which, according to this review, means he's "utterly chilling in his penetrating intellect, cold gaze, and utter lack of empathy or compassion". Me, I find it amusing to the point of stupidity to fault Lucifer for being only and entirely what he was made to be, much as he struggles against it. I mean, in this universe, the Christian god and Michael Demiurgos aren't necessarily forgiving or compassionate either. Maybe I just don't think having unfounded expectations of people or angels ever got anyone anywhere pleasant... but then maybe I'm just bitter.
    More likely, it's just my usual distaste for people judging any character by outside values that have nothing to do with who the character is. When that character is basically the personification of a concept (Will-- whether will to Power or will to Know or will to Become)-- it's just ridiculous to then fault that character for not containing that element of likeability that is supposed to come from 'humanity'. Though I see humanity in him; or perhaps him in humanity. It's just rather... distilled.

Man, after this, I'm never going back-- this is now my Lucifer, though I've written him once before. It's just got that classic ring of 'this is how it -should- be'. He's probably philosophically intolerable to a lot of people, and that might be because there's a definite overall philosophy in this book to start with-- I could probably write essays about it, but I'll try not to. -.-
~~

By the way, seeing this post by kindkit really put a finger on a disturbance I've had for a while-- namely, the equating of slash with m/m subtext itself-- basically, the complete focus on subtext as exciting and satisfying and... -enough-. I guess this whole mindset would only bother one if they saw the fanon pairing of choice as the most 'right' for the characters. If one, in fact, believes that Kirk and Spock or Harry & Draco or what have you -should- be together, then any storyline where they never -could- be becomes... well, unsatisfactory, doesn't it.

Just as kindkit said, the problem becomes "subtext being treated as though it's a perfectly acceptable substitute for text".


I guess I'm just not -happy- having my pleasure in a story being relegated to subtext, while the main storyline keeps being frustrating and 'not quite right'. A story is a story; it shouldn't matter (at least, to me it doesn't) whether the main pairing is hetero or homosexual, as long as it -works-. It also depends whether romance really matters to the storyline, though-- the best or most satisfying romantic subtext, I think, is between people whose other main relationship (friendship, rivalry, partnership, whatever) is really the glue that holds the narrative (or them) together. It depends on whether there's a valid -reason- why these two people aren't ready to be together at this point in the story.
    I suppose mainly it's just that I see a difference between an unspoken bond which is nevertheless at the center of a story (like, Kirk/Spock, Frodo/Sam, those sorts of pairings, and maybe something like Heero/Duo in Gundam Wing, too), and something that might be alluded to or hinted at while at the same time not really explored for no obvious other reason except it's a homosexual pairing (like Seth/Ryan in The OC or maybe even Clark/Lex in Smallville).

Not that there's anything wrong with a subtextual pairing per se-- like, I was rather happy with the way the subtext between Mulder and Scully was handled back before it became text; in other words, sometimes things just don't -need- to become text, even though one can't help but want them to (as I did). This is how I felt about Harry & Draco post-HBP, btw-- I felt that their relationship in canon reached that 'satisfactory subtext' point where their present relationship issues were more vital than possible romance. This is something I'd like to discuss with other (former??) H/D shippers, but wouldn't know where or with whom; the only person who seems to see eye-to-eye with me on this is Amalin, though, so I suppose I'm content.
    With Sirius and Remus-- I don't really feel it's really a subtextual pairing within canon any more than H/D is (the H/D is just a question of my own issues, there). You could make a semi-valid case that Remus reads as homosexual within the text, for example, but it wouldn't matter because it's not important to the narrative whether he is or not. With Harry, any potential homosexuality is also moot, because his sexuality in general was largely moot throughout the story; he was asexual if anything. Sure, you could go on about how he notices how Sirius is hot or whatever, but that in itself is not enough to make a serious impact on the story or Harry's character. Sirius' significance to Harry was obviously as a link to the past, to his parents, not as any potential love interest. There's no sense of incompleteness with Sirius' death except in the sense that Harry never got what he wanted from him (ie, parenting), but the case could easily be made that Sirius was never fit to give it to him anyway.

Basically, it's not that I like the homosexual over the homosocial-- quite the opposite. I almost always wish brotherhood-type bonds remained asexual, somewhere at the back of my mind, simply because that tends to make it... firstly more realistic and it highlights different intrinsic problems, ones that get shunted aside with a romance, which has its own typical progression. I'm almost always focused on what I think makes sense for the characters, either way-- where it seems they would want to go, given the circumstances of their feelings and their lives. People are always different-- their relationships unique to them. One person would clutch a feeling like love close to their hearts all their lives, content never to realize it in the presence of all the things they already have and fear to lose, and another person would be waiting, endlessly waiting for the other person to open them up like a door with a secret key they'd given away without the other person ever knowing.
    What I'm saying is, the question of whether or not I would feel cheated by subtext remaining subtextual all comes down to context.

If it has anything to do with the slashers just looking for the pretty homosexual lovin' or the canon writers avoiding the same for that reason-- well, that's what I'm tired of.

Ideally, I guess, subtext should be something that should -remain- subtext in order to be effective as a story. Like, in order to make something Mulder/Krycek text, for instance, nearly all of the X-Files arc would have to be rewritten to some extent, see? Because, really, the story depends on them playing their roles as they played them. You'd need an AU to alter it, and you'd have to alter all the other relationships in the bargain. The same could be said of H/D, actually-- though the whole -point- of that pairing, really, is to shake up canon, to write AUs. You can't seriously write successful H/D (where it's more than some drunken encounter in a closet) without challenging JKR on a basic level and calling her out on a number of things. You just. Can't. Period.

And the thing that pisses me off so mightily with 99.9% of all H/D out there is that people write it so obliviously, as if you can plop Harry with Draco, mix, stir, and POOF! Look! They're snogging! (NO. And did I mention no?? Because NO). You're plotting canon revolution by writing H/D honestly, and there's no way around it. And yeah, if you're not going to write it honestly, I don't really see the point of writing it at all, because there's much easier pickings out there as far as porn goes. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer my porn to come easier than squeezing blood from a stone (aka H/D). And so of course it bothers me even more to see Harry & Draco's interaction in HBP as sexually subtextual-- meaning, of course we saw more of their relationship, but we really really really didn't see how 'omg Harry wants Draco so bad' (and yeah, no use arguing with me on this, I'll just get more rabid, ahahah). Okay, I'll go rinse out my brain now.

    With S/R, say, it's totally different-- the draw there is that you literally don't have to alter anything in canon to make it work. It -could- have happened, even if there's nothing in canon, really, that implies it had to or should have or any of that. So I wouldn't quite say it's a subtextual pairing in the sense something like Seth/Ryan or Spike/Angel is-- I mean, I don't think them hugging in the Shack is 'wink-wink-nudge-nudge' territory. With S/R, there's not enough -known- about their relationship in canon for us to judge whether it's better or worse off (story-wise) as friends or lovers-- we just know their personalities and the facts of their lives, we haven't actually watched them interact that much.

Anyway, I forgot what my point was, if I ever had any. Maybe that I really hate it when subtext is seen as text dying to be born-- like, that's bad subtext and bad text both. If it's really dying to be born, then it -should- be, and if it's not born anyway, that means there's something wrong with the text, and if there's something that wrong with the text, then why bother playing with it? But then, I'm just bitter.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That's weird...to me it seems like H/D and S/R are exactly the same that way. Both of them are non-sexual relationships in canon, but many people see them as having a sexual component to them. S/R could have happened, H/D could happen. I guess it's just that for me H/D isn't blood from a stone so much as water from a faucet.:-)

And imo kindness is *all about* justice. It's not that sort of sentimental stuff that's all about being fluffy. It goes much better with a stronger personality. I cna't describe it right but...when people are does really sweet it seems like it's about something else.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think I go back and forth with H/D in terms of where the water's coming from~:) It's like, it could happen, yeah, but you'd have to write an AU, because it's just -not- going to happen, y'know? I was exaggerrating with the blood from a stone thing out of bitterness :))

I think it's mostly that it won't happen even though it could, and with each book it gets further into the 'won't' territory because the span of time (or like, margin of error) keeps narrowing, y'know? You can't just throw them together the way you can throw S/R together, in other words-- you'd have to justify it, see -how- it happened, see -why-, or it makes no sense (to me anyway). Harry can't just wake up one day and go 'mmmm, Malfoy'-- not post-OoTP and not post-HBP.

More things are... stopping them, I guess, circumstantially, even if they've still got that water-from-a-faucet potential. Like, potential isn't enough, or something? Circumstances being what they are and canon likelihood being what it is, and Ginny being present, it's most likely you'd have to actively avoid the most likely canon (future) timeline if you write H/D. That's what I meant, I guess.

I think real kindness is all about justice too~:) I know just what you mean! Heh. That's the kind of kindness I like, anyway... though, well, with Lucifer, I feel he's mostly neither kind nor just-- he's just... honest, I suppose? He gives others chances when it suits him. But um, in more broad terms, I do believe real justice and real mercy have to go together in order to be... um, worth their salt or something. It's sort of like in the meeting of emotion and reason is where you could find the truth? Or something-- yin-yang combining, like :>

[mme-antoinette.livejournal.com]

It's lovely to see another Lucifer fan. My love of it has gotten to the point that I think I have an actual crush on the character, as dorky as that may sound. He is exceedingly honest, yet this does not make him "good". (And that concept shouldn't even be applied to him.) I also really like the dynamic between him and Mazikeen. It's one of respect, yet not of any sentimentality AT ALL.

...I could go on about this endlessly.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee! I'm always so happy to find someone who unexpectedly knows what I'm babbling about-- I feel almost justified in babbling in the first place, yeay :D
I think-- probably-- it's easy to admire this Lucifer, to give him his due, and then he sort of-- grows on you. I'm sort of actively trying -not- to get a crush on him, though not seeing him in a romantic light at all is difficult, since I think he's a pretty romantic character in the sense of representing an ideal, y'know :>

Usually, I've had a history of shipping Lucifer with God, heh, what with the rebellion and need for approval and my deep conviction that, you know, they must love each other even if Lucifer would deny it (the one thing I feel he's not really honest about).... But it's such a parent/child relationship here. I'm kinda drawn to slashing Lucifer/Michael, though... I mean, I think he's the only person he probably saw as an equal, and he was the only person he seemed to sincerely -want- to... um, communicate with and-- reach, and his death really affected him in a way that's deeper than his reactions to anyone else (Mazikeen, say).

I find their relationship interesting but not romantic, I guess. Like, it's too unequal for that and Mazikeen knows it-- that's how they convinced her to become War Leader, right. She -wants- to be his equal, though, at the bottom of her heart, and she seems to have 'issues' with him that sort of peek through sometimes, I think. Like, there's no way around it-- it's apparently obvious to everyone that she loves him, and well, he doesn't reciprocate-- but I also believe it's more that he won't than that he can't. He accepts her devotion, respects her abilities and trusts her, which is more than he could say for nearly everyone else, and of course she appreciates that, but there's also always the chance that something could just -snap- like with the Lilim and he wouldn't regret it -that- much, as he told the girl. So it's not -that- stable, which makes it interesting :>

I do have hopes for some future potential with Elaine, who could become his equal, but I don't think we'll actually see that since the series ends with #75. *sigh* I can really go on about this too, I guess :D

[mme-antoinette.livejournal.com]

Shipping Lucifer with God?! Damn. Damn. Wouldn't have considered such a thing. To quote Homer Simpson, "mmmmm... sacrilicious."

Yes, your take on Lucifer & Mazikeen is absolutely right on. I have come to adore Mazikeen, partially because of this ambition and bitterness, but mostly because of how despite that ambition and bitterness she sort of accepts this treatment from him. Like you said, he shows her more respect/affection/etc than he ever would anyone else. I'm fascinated by their dynamic, because as a card-carrying feminist (and former Women's Studies major, no less) she would on the surface appear to be inordinately subservient, but I think she's got more subtley than that. Or maybe I'm just idealizing Lucifer's shitty treatment of her too? :p


Or maybe my heart just goes out to Mazikeen because the guy doesn't have genitals. Poor girl.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, y'know... it's the first ship... I wouldn't call it a -slash- ship, but. Ahahah, I've even written (http://reenka.expecto-patronum.net/story/demons.html) it once-- to me it's just so obvious. Possibly I don't get that whole... uh, sacrilege thing intuitively...?? Well, actually that might be what attracts me to things, too :D But honestly, it's just so... obvious? In Linsner's Dawn, Lucifer's way in love with God, but I actually don't like Linsner's God or Lucifer for that matter, much as I love Dawn and the Horned God. I mean, it's obvious he doesn't actually enjoy Christian mythology and/or has a chip on his shoulder about it....

Hahah, I totally keep thinking about the genitals thing. I can't -not-. I mean, I guess it's canon they can't -reproduce-, but I'm thinking with so much magical power, you'd think they could grow a cock and/or there's always psychic!penis???!?! I just really want this mystery solved. And yet I fear they'll never go there. Woe.

I think in her mind, she simply accepts that he's her superior-- like, he's won that right, like in the ancient stories where the warrior queen will only bed a man if he can defeat her in combat, y'know? I have a feeling Lucifer had defeated her in combat at one point, but this is just a guess! Also, I think it's obvious she's much more free-spirited than the supposedly 'independent' rest of the Lilim and her mother, and she knows she's free, too. She chooses her fate, which is what gives her the strength to accept Lucifer's dominance or whatever. It's that whole thing about being willingly submissive from a position of strength... or something.... I'm totally talking out my ass 'cause I'm not the type to respect power even if it -is- worthy :> Possibly I'm more like Lucifer in that sense ;)

[mme-antoinette.livejournal.com]

Yes, you've said it perfectly.

*bows to a superior warrior* ;)


Oh, and about the genital issue... I just figure [read: hope] that there's something, some way, some substitute for angel-sex that we don't know about. I'm going to go on believing that.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

If it has anything to do with the slashers just looking for the pretty homosexual lovin' or the canon writers avoiding the same for that reason-- well, that's what I'm tired of.

Well, what the hell else are we supposed to do? I mean, really, where's the canon pretty homosexual lovin', outside the bit of occasionally well-written but usually piss-poorly written fantasy, or Japanese texts?

Slash is subtext, because actual slash text is slim pickings.

Personally I see not difference between something like Seth/Ryan & something like Kirk/Spock, except the quantity of canon text. It's still the eternal homosocial bond that resists all external heterosexual angst and that defines them in regards to each other so much more than their definition in regards to women. Even when they become enemies (Clark/Lex) or when there is much angst, death and splits (Bruce/Dick-Jason-Tim... ESPECIALLY Jason, though Dick is the gayest of the three by far) it's still there. Which is why H/D is less blood-from-stone and more like blood-from-small-defenceless-fluffy-animal. Ron/Harry is very much blood-from-stone for me, because they're too damn alike, and there's no real interest or emotion in the relationship for me.

As for subtext dying to be born? Well, frankly, that's all subtext ever is. The in-potentia text. It doesn't have to be "born" to be good.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, this wasn't exactly a call to action, but the whole train of thought started when I said earlier I wasn't willing to watch boring or just bad anime shows for the slash potential alone-- well, 'cause there's always yaoi. My issue isn't with slashable shows, obviously, but with ones where that's the only appeal or where one has to swallow lots of bullshit to enjoy that aspect of the storyline or where there's all this pointless baiting from the writers and the relationship doesn't -work- 'as is', non-romantically, near as well as it would as a couple-- and the -only- reason there's no romantic same-sex pairing is because it -is- same-sex.

You could make the argument, I guess, that that's always the reason, but I don't think so-- like, enough times, like with Harry&Draco or Kirk&Spock, there's a very good narrative reason why they're not knocking boots in the story. There's no 'excuse' being made, no shortcut, it just is how it makes sense it would be. And that's the difference between Seth/Ryan and K/S-- because Seth/Ryan is all wink-wink-nudge-nudge, suggestive, not fully developed and taken fully seriously. K&S was taken fully seriously and there's nothing -missing- in canon, -I- think.

I was talking more about the pairing in regards to its context, the circumstances and the actual story, and less about the nature of the bond involved or whatever. In -context-, there's a good reason, I think, why Kirk&Spock remained platonic. There's also a good reason for Harry & Draco to remain platonic within JKR's context and intent, which is why I said that about AUs.

Meaning, it's not that the potential relationship is 'blood from a stone' (and I should've known if I used any hyperbole it was going to be jumped all over)-- it's that it's bloody -difficult- to make H/D fully -plausible-, as is evidenced by the very small number of people who actually do. No, I don't think I do, btw. It's not that H/D aren't -suited-, they're just very unlikely to happen as things stand in canon, to say the least. Whether or not they'd -work- together is an entirely subjective matter I feel is pointless to argue-- and I wasn't actually trying to. All I believe I said is that you can't just plop Harry with Draco and poof! snoggage. Well, you -can-, but that makes your fic OOC. All potential glory aside, I'll believe H/D = blood from defenseless forest creatures when people start writing it that believably.

I've been waiting awhile. Though honestly, don't think I am anymore.

And-- as I was trying to say-- I don't think -all- subtext is uniformly -meant- to be text-- sometimes, its role is to be what it is and to -inform- the text. And I was never talking about 'good' or 'bad' in the first place, was I-- I believe what I said was that it all depended on specific context and circumstances and of course, execution. I was trying to say some romantic subtext feels like it -should- become text, and in that case it's bad storytelling to suppress it. But not -all- subtext is meant to be born, because sometimes-- like with Mulder/Scully, say-- it serves the story best as subtext. In that case, it's not dying to be born at all; it's happy being buried. It's possible, at least.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

There's also a good reason for Harry & Draco to remain platonic within JKR's context and intent

There is? *blink* No seriously, what's the reason that's better than the reason for Seth/Ryan remaining platonic? Sorry, I really don't get it. I mean, the one remdeeming value of HBP was that it brought H/D closer to canon than anything has before. I just don't get your point.

I was trying to say some romantic subtext feels like it -should- become text, and in that case it's bad storytelling to suppress it.

Yeah, but how do you tell the difference? Stuff like Lois/Clark back in the old series was the same as Mulder/Scully, and was good as subtext, but when they both became text the text was well and truly killed. I mean, dude, supposedly there was Harry/Ginny "subtext" in the previous books (fucked if I know where it was) and well, need I point out the traincrash that was Harry's chestmonster in HBP? R/Hr? I mean, really, there's rarely het subtext I enjoy when it becomes text, because what was once enjoyable characters with independent personalities and vaguely likable behaviour becomes stereotypical heteronormative dipshits.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't think JKR (as I said, 'context and intent') ever intended to give Harry and Draco an actual 'relationship' of any kind-- as in, they don't really have one-- they don't interact that much, forget -deeply-. They don't really -know- each other, just react to each other because of some incidents and pre-existing prejudices they have. Draco has a sort of symbolic placement and plot significance in the books that changes with each book, yeah, but I wouldn't say he's that -significant- to Harry at this point, not compared to the emotional bond/investment Harry even has with Snape, after the murder. I mean, with Snape it's hatred-- with Draco it's pity and some lingering fixation.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't even know if a big part of -Draco's- emotional life revolves around Harry anymore, forget Harry's around Draco-- and that's a big difference between them and Seth&Ryan. HBP did give us more H&D interaction than ever, sure, but how does that necessarily equal to 'romantic subtext', let alone something that's a -cheat- or bad storytelling on JKR's part not to make an actuality? I mean, by 'closer to canon' you'd have to mean there's now something like .09% possibility of it happening in canon instead of .02%...? Closer is still not very close, not anywhere near so close as something Mulder/Scully in the good old days.

I don't really see anything about the books that seriously sets up H/D-- it -could- have conceivably gone like that after book 2 or 3, but things would have to have developed really differently for that to work with the rest of JKR's plot and circumstances since then. The 'reason' is that Harry and Draco are on opposite sides, and their journeys are parallel but separate-- Draco has his own road to walk, his own realizations to make. In HBP, Draco was needed to be a tool for Voldemort, a tool for Harry to make some realizations, an enemy Harry feels pity for, etcetc-- he has his role. That role is not 'romantic interest'-- that would really change a -lot-. You basically could not tell the same story JKR has been telling if Harry wanted Draco (rewritings of HBP aside for my own mental health, here, and even if you insist, let's just say 'consciously'). It all seems pretty clear-cut to me. Whether or not HBP is well-written has little to do with how Draco fits into the overall storyline, y'know..?

And-- I don't know how to tell the difference as to what romance would flourish in 'real text' and what would be killed by the exposure-- I think it's really a question of writing in these cases rather than the necessity of plotline. You can analyze characterizations and say 'well, that would work well' or vice versa, but a writer can still mess it all up even if it's a good idea, like with H/G, which -could- have been written much better. I'm not claiming there was subtext for H/G or not-- it seems mostly irrelevant. I'm just saying that I was assuming good writing, of course, not badfic where you have 'stereotypical heteronormative dipshits', y'know? That's just bad writing-- and I'm not claiming JKR in particular is any good at romance, anyway, I'm just looking at it from a structural pov.

A lot of times, it's true, writers do ruin good relationships by bringing subtext into textual territory-- probably mostly because the types of writers who do that sort of drawn-out build-up type stuff aren't romance writers to start with, so they don't know what the hell they're doing. In most cases I'm all for subtext remaining subtext becaue there tends to be a reason for that and because it tends to suck when it becomes text-- like, even with fanfic, usually the characters are vaguely IC right up until the romance strikes.

Nevertheless... if there's -already- romance and/or a romantic focus in a story, and one is -trying- for romance anyway (which JKR wasn't, really, and Star Trek wasn't, say)-- that's when I feel one can't escape from facing up to what the characters demand. And I suppose I do think that good characters have their own inner logic, and you can just tell when it's being tampered with... or at least, well, I can tell.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I object. They do have a canon relationship. It may not be on the same level as the Trio & such, but it's still a relationship. Y'know, "Snark snark you suck" "Snark bitch moan your mom" is still a relationship. And yeah, because Draco is so important, there's a relationship. Or maybe he's important to the plot so often because there is a relationship.

Either way, it's there.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't even know if a big part of -Draco's- emotional life revolves around Harry anymore

I think it always has and does, which is canon subtext. Eg - the first Borgin & Burkes scene with his daddy, his motivation to make "Potter Stinks" badges, and the fact he tried to (and probably would have succeed) cast the Cruciatus at Harry. Sectumsempra be damned, we're told you need a decent amount of emotion and intent behind the unforgivables for them to work. So there's something serious there.

And I don't think their journeys are seperate at all, but closely intertwined. Draco sets off so many important plot events for Harry it's not funny, and vice versa. Draco wouldn't have done squat in HBP if his daddy hadn't been playing uke to Azkaban inmates, and hell, even in GOF, do you think Harry would have trusted Moody as much as he did if he hadn't ferret-pwned Draco? It only takes a little fanon nudge - as much as Seth/Ryan, Kirk/Spock, and any other pairing you want to name - to knock it into a romantic involvement.

I'm just saying that I was assuming good writing, of course, not badfic where you have 'stereotypical heteronormative dipshits', y'know?

Yeah, but I'm not talking about fic. I'm talking about crap canon, or text. It's times like that, when the text is so goddamn awful, when subtext becomes the safehaven for fans. One of the reasons most post-HBP fics I've seen have been H/D, or somehow involving Blaise or the Slug Club is because they were the best bits of subtext and possibly the best parts of the book compared to the awful text.

Romance isn't easy to write. A lot of people think it is, think because the genre is popular anyone can do it, and then make total asses of themselves when they try it. I mean, look at Lucas's trainwreck.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

You're right, they do have a relationship of sorts-- man, when I start talking about H/D, any objectivity I might have flies out the window, which is why I try not to talk about them, but I -fail-, fail fail. Heheh, I love the 'your mom' thing ♥ If more people wrote H/D like that (oh Silvia, MY LOVE *WEEPS* HOW I MISS YOU :(( AHHH), I'd so still be here ♥ Ahhh ♥. Ahem.

Anyway, er, where was I...

I think most of the stuff about me doubting how much Draco still fixates on Harry is because I personally was pouty after HBP, when I had time to think about it... too much, ahaha. The more I thought about it, the more I was unhappy with the dynamic as it was in HBP-- with the changes, y'know. But all of this is so personal to me that I try not to discuss it because I can't see straight, necessarily (even though I can't help but rant anyway... alas). I loved the H&D in HBP, but at the same time it discouraged me from sexualizing it and/or projecting into the future, 'cause things just seemed so -different- in ways I didn't want to deal with, and in the end I'm a nostalgic freak. But yeah, I know there needs to be a lot of emotion (ie, hate) for a successful Crucio-- however, we don't -know- whether he would've cast it successfully. He probably would've. Heh.

By 'separate' I mean their um, emotional growth would be separate rather than the actual crucial events not affecting both of them, because surely they would. In the end, we probably disagree about the size of the nudge that's needed-- I think it's a fairly sizeable nudge, most of fandom disagrees, and we have me hating most fic and fandom not caring. Hahah, that's how it goes, I guess :> I don't think Harry's about to fall into bed with Draco without dealing with the issues between them first to some degree, the misunderstandings, the long-standing prejudices, the sheer... I dunno, annoyance of the other's presence. There's heavy denial there at the very least, something that's not just going to fall away like dead leaves. But that's just me.

Right, I was talking about bad canon too, and saying it doesn't impact my original point, because I was assuming good writing to start with (otherwise 'why bother', I believe I said). Ideally(!), subtext and text should work in harmony, enhancing and enriching each other-- when they don't, there's this sense of... rot. I don't want to just accept it, I guess I'm saying. I'd rather avoid it, personally.

And I was admitting romance was hard-- well, any genre is probably hard if it's not your forte, but. I think I'm just tired of accepting bad storytelling for the sake of slash, not that I ever did accept it, hahaha, so I don't really know what I'm on about~:))

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Heheh, I love the 'your mom' thing

Well, it is pretty much canon XD. *loved the robe scene in HBP*

Dude, I think you had the exact opposite reaction I did to H&D in HBP. The more I thought about it, the more I loved it, but, y'know, that could have just been a comparison-to-the-rest-of-the-book thing. But really, it's great. Draco can have lots of angsty-poo over Death Eating, and Harry's now slightly sympathetic to the little fuck. Everybody wins!

I think I'm just tired of accepting bad storytelling for the sake of slash

I dunno. John/Rodney is excellent fun, and probably the only redeeming aspect of SGA... except for that hot Scottish guy. Mmmmm. XD

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

Okay, sekrit confession time: sometimes I like H/D fluff.

LOL @ "sometimes."

Dork.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...*facepalms*
But! But I can still get away with it 'cause, um, usually when I read H/D fluff (or anything else), I just sort of feel sick....And fluff is less well-written and more OOC in general, so! Yes :>

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

It's like really cheap candy.

Or cocaine.

[loftily.livejournal.com]

Oh, Reena, I miss OotP! But then again, in some ways, what you're saying about subtextual satisfaction is far easier to feel in HBP, I think. After OotP, it felt like there had to be a physical, sexual element to it, I think. At least to a lot of people (me sort of included).

This is how I felt about Harry & Draco post-HBP, btw-- I felt that their relationship in canon reached that 'satisfactory subtext' point where their present relationship issues were more vital than possible romance.

I do see what you see, I do!

I think a big thing is payoff, really; if you think it's enough in canon. And if you think it's enough in canon, would you carry that satisfaction over to fanon? Because I've always felt, in some ways, that everything we've said about seeing and transformation and coming together, that that can be ambiguously platonic, in some ways. Which is why I am on a genfic crusade! Even though I never write anything!

It's this beautiful line, for me anyway, between platonic love and "romantic" love - which one is more satisfying, or even "better" or stronger? And I don't see either of them as "better," nor do I think romantic love has greater possibilities to change them and bring them together - at one point, I might have said so, but I'm not so sure now. I like that ambiguity. Like with the "I love you" in DV (no, I haven't read past that point, so . . .): what did it mean? Because now I'd be content, and happier, and more satisfied in its believability, if all it meant was love, but not sexual physical love. Which I thought it did, but then again, like I said, I haven't read since then.

So I guess now I'm finding either platonic connections, or ambiguous connections, more appealing, just because there's something beautiful in that ambiguity, I think! Something unsaid and maybe more powerful because of it. But I am rambling and probably just offended the rest of fandom, which I don't even belong to anymore! You and I should just hole up and write our hugfics in a corner.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh Kara <3333333333333 I am so totally with you, and sorrysorry I've totally been avoiding fandom and answering comments and things, but I just totally agree and that is all. :(( I mean specifically about loving the ambiguity and the fine line between platonic and romantic, and exploring that being satisfying also, because platonic love isn't -weaker- or -lesser- in any way, etcetc.... I mean, I also agree that there was more need for a sexual/physical push post-OoTP, and I -love- that physical element, naturally-- but at the same time, my ideal relationship isn't really a physical one? I mean, I -am- sex-obsessed but at the same time hormones are more of a benefit and catalyst than an end onto themselves in terms of character growth-- not to say I don't appreciate them.

Though with the DT... like, I always followed the school of thought (heh) that, y'know, if you love someone -that- much, can there really be anyone else for you? In that whole... 'but where does that leave whoever the romantic interest is supposed to be' sort of way. Like, that's why I love genfic and/or shows which never have the main heroes hook up-- then I'm happy 'cause they're eternally platonic and such, and only use sex as a means of getting off with random women they meet who may mean something to them but nothing -that- real, y'know, but at the same time... that's not realistic or really desirable long-term, I guess...?

So in the beginning-- while young-- while exploring life-- yeah. But then you always end up having to make choices about... what people mean to you, and like... -having- your life instead of just looking for it. And it's at that point where one -chooses- that I think it's... unhappy/wrong to choose a person who you can't give your all to. Or something.