disagreeing != disregarding, and why agenda!wank needs to DIE.

[reenka]

Am I the only one that sort of... laughs when I see posts about how someone can't like a character anymore after they acted in a way they disapproved of or wouldn't have been expected in canon? Or weren't paid enough attention to? Or were made out to be less than sympathetic? Or were too dumb, slow, unimportant, ugly, pretty, morally ambiguous, good/evil, hormonal, asexual, immature or cranky? Because god knows, if someone's hard to like all of a sudden as a teenager, they're doomed, doomed for life. Hello, my name is Reena, and I was doomed to hell and back when I was at the tender age of 13. Possibly earlier. I was a bitch at that age, lemme tell ya. Ooh yeah. They had to put up quarantine signs on me. Yep.

    No, I lie-- I don't laugh, I cringe and want to escape, escape far, far away to a land where most people can separate personal bias (like, 'oh noes, I didn't want character X to die/become a bitch/start shagging sheep, ahhhh!!1') and some sort of sane objective evaluation of a story like 'oh, I see, character X didn't have this sort of role in this scenario but he had -this- role and I can see how that works into this theme and this subplot, even though I feel it wasn't tied in well with his previous behavior patterns'. I just boggle, because it's like people don't even notice a subplot if they don't want to acknowledge it or it's not obviously part of a piss-point they're making (even though the explanation-- were one to look for that sort of thing-- often lies just beyond the things one notices in one's frantic sweep of Things That Sucked).

I don't even want to bring up anything specific (say, Hermione, Ron, R/Hr, H/G, Ginny, Snape, lessee who else can we wank today) 'cause then people will jump on me and ignore my general point. (And that's my point, anyway.) Actually, that's what bothers me the most-- it's not people's opinions diverging from mine or whatever (naturally they would), but the way so many people in HP fandom, at least, express those opinions-- by basically steamrolling over anything in their way. I don't even know where to start with the whole 'well, this is how I thought the canon was, and now it's different in a way that doesn't satisfy my agenda for character/pairing X, therefore it sucks'. I don't even know what to say. 'Wake up and smell the coffee!!' doesn't really cover it. What can I say?


I think it would be okay if the person wanking complaining acknowledged the canonical context for the characterization they're complaining about. 'It makes no sense' or 'there was no point' or 'it was done because the writer sucks' doesn't cut it, sorry. There is nearly always a point for something to happen a certain way, even when the writer sucks-- you can always assume there's a reason things happen the way they do and not another way, because even if the writer sucks and didn't intend it, there was still some sort of logical progression in their heads. It exists! No, really. You simply have to look at the overall picture and follow the threads backwards, rather than looking for something specific in terms of a scenario or behavior type and noticing 'oh, that's not how it is' and starting to cry foul as loud as possible.

Then... then, you could make a coherent argument that includes the actual context you're drawing your issues from. Because without the original context, and with blatant focus on your own personal attachment to a specific event/characterization/etc, you will never get to the truth.
    Basically, I just want to say that I'm really tired of people not disagreeing but rather disregarding aspects of an issue they don't find 'relevant' in order to make their measly point on the agenda. It makes meta-discussion so not-fun as to be nauseating. And wanky. Very, very wanky.
    In other words, I really should stop reading HP meta, when seeing someone go 'omg NO, my favorite character acted STUPID, what shall I DO?!?!' makes me... uh... act stupid -.- Or possibly this is fodder for a post about how people are obsessed with idealizing their most loved characters... I mean, not that this is anything new or weird, but it still drives me up the wall. I really wonder if they always knew no one could live up to such unrealistic standards, if half of humanity would like... self-destruct or something (like, 'omg, we're NOT PERFECT, THEREFORE WE MUST DIE'). But then this reminds me of some religions -.-

Actually, this is related to that whole frustrating discourse of '-I- wouldn't have acted like this and/or liked this, so why would MY FAVORITE CHARACTER OMG like this/act like this?? Why, if it was me I'd have... [blahblahblah]'.
    Hello, a) blatant self-insertion; b) disregard for the inner logic of the character; c) any admission of the fact that people don't always do the best thing, the most reasonable thing, the most correct thing. Oh yes, and why? Because they're people, yes thank you, have we met? Here's you, here's the rest of humanity over there-- and making stupid mistakes?? Is what makes us who we are. Funny, that.

My attitude is, well, 'who cares how admirable/good/sexy you/your favorite character/your dog are?' but I realize I'm in the minority in my little corner over here. Also, this makes me wonder if this close association with the admirability of one's favorites implies people judge themselves by the behavior of the ones they love, even fictional o_0. I mean, on first glance, I'm like, noooo, too insane, but. Well. Fandom.
~~

EDIT - With the caveat that this is mpreg (...yeah), that it's an AU that basically rewrites canon (though it slashifies it and enriches it believably in equal parts), and with the additional caveat that I could only skim certain parts because of the above, I have to say I've finally found a post-HBP H/D fic I could like, and it's `Genesis' by akahannah. Mostly, I lovelove the Harry characterization. It's got that all-important selling point of him not being suddenly reasonable (quite the opposite... oh, I think I'm going to cry), and Draco being both sympathetic and a little prick (see! see!) and. Yeah. ♥
    And now, for somebody to do all this and with no mpreg, canon-rewriting or... yeah, that's pretty much it....

...Though, um, I liked this GW 1x2 fic way more than I'd liked any H/D fic in ages... and ages....

Comments

[akahannah.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say thanks for the shoutout. I'm really glad you liked the parts of the fic you were able to read. I occasionally read posts on your journal and know how particular you are about characterization, so this means a lot to me.

As an aside, I'm rather intrigued to know what led you to read the fic when there was so much about it you knew you weren't going to like.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh man, now I'm a bit chagrined for being so... um...upfront? ^^; Most of the reason for the skimming is that I generally skim these days unless it's all porn or all dialogue or something, and then, sometimes after 5 chapters I'd be like 'oooh, this is too interesting not to go back and read it all'. That's what happened with my favorite H/D fic currently, Eclipse :>

But yeah, I loved your Harry, omg! :D He was like a breath of fresh air :> Though it's not like I have issues with mpreg per se, so it wouldn't -necessarily- stop me from reading something... one of my favorite RPGs is H/D mpreg, and it's silly and snarky and lovable. I think I tend to really enjoy it in a crackfic sort of way. But your fic was so, um, canon-plausible and serious in terms of overall approach and flavor that I couldn't get over wanting it to be... well, fully believable, I think? Its premise was treated so thoroughly and realistically, it was actually more difficult than usual for me to suspend my disbelief, if that makes sense~:) Mostly because it made me -want-to think, and remember canon, and take it seriously, y'know.

Heheh and though it's selfish of me, I hope you'd consider writing for big_bang_hd-- I think you'd do great :D

[akahannah.livejournal.com]

Please don't be chagrined - I really appreciated your honesty. I must say I'm a bit of a skimmer at the moment too, particularly with chaptered fics, though I tend to follow recs and they generally see me right. I had a similar experience with Eclipse. The first few chapters were quite slow, but once Harry and Draco were on the run I stopped skimming and began reading every word. And loving it. Damn but that cliffhanger is killing me!

So you're a dracolicious/boywholives fan as well, then? I hadn't heard of them until a couple of months ago - either they're fandom's best kept secret, or I just don't pay enough attention.

I have been considering writing for big_bang_hd. I read the last lot and adored them, and would love to be a part of the next round. Is there any requirement for the fic to be written from Harry's pov? I noticed that the last round of big bang fics all were. Or would it be possible to write it from Draco's perspective? That is my main sticking point at this juncture.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, I don't know whose recs to follow anymore, but then I'm really -really- picky and I've liked HBP canon too much to want to read much fic for it. I am really enjoying Eclipse, though, probably in large part because I'm hanging on to the promise in the first author's note that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Plus there's no deathfic warning, so I think we're fine. In a way, I'd be sad 'cause the next one's the last chapter before the epilogue, and there goes the last H/D WIP I'm following with it.

Yeah, I found dracolicious & boywholives ages ago, but then I do lots of surfing around for H/D and follow up on links a lot. I haven't read it for a while, though... They were so adorable while Draco was still pregnant the most, I think :>

And, re: Big Bang-- I totally have no idea where anyone got the idea about it having to be Harry pov, since that's not anywhere in the rules. I'm not sure whether to make a post about it or not, but-- well, my own Big Bang fic (if I finish) will be Draco's pov. We're not trying to reproduce canon, just try to remember it exists. That seems to be a problem for most H/D fics, which is why the challenge started-- not really to go for similar style or parallel content so much as simply to acknowledge facts and plausibility. But then when you put it that way I guess more people would get offended, I'm not sure :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--well, if people stopped doing this what would most of HP fandom do??

It's funny because I do always believe that every character has the potential to be OOC--if the author has some religious epiphany between books, for instance, and suddenly all the characters find Jesus I'd say they're acting OOC because they aren't followng the natural arc of their original creation. But sometimes it does seem like people are responding more to not liking what the character does, and therefore assuming it's wrong, instead of really proving that it is wrong, you know? Like, if you say "so and so would never do that!" you have to say why, and saying "because s/he is smart!" that doesn't really cover it. Maybe this is a different situation, or maybe they have acted this way before only in that context it was a good thing.

So it's weird because on one hand you want to say, "What do you mean they would never do that--they just did!" but otoh I don't want to just act like we can't question a character's actions if they don't make sense to us. It's just you have to separate an action that doesn't make sense to you from an action that you don't like.

Like recently I've come across a couple of references to Occlumency and who can do it and why, and it seems like JKR has a clear idea in her mind how Occlumency is done and why some people are good or bad at it, but fandom hasn't always been able to follow it. So people want to put their own spin on it or say it doesn't make sense that one character can or can't do it. Sometimes it seems like they're putting their own agendas on it, and other times it seems like it's maybe just that the author hasn't explained it that well.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm feeling something similar 'cause I was just so tempted to exclaim 'omg, you're so SMRT!', and yet I don't know if I can guarantee that's because it's true or it's because I totally agree with you :D But yeah... um, I think people so often confuse interpretation (opinion) & I dunno, belief I guess? Some opinion that isn't really related to that particular story but more related to the person's own history & biases. It's most blatant when people say doing something makes a character immature or bitchy or 'unworthy' somehow-- those cases are always so transparent. I don't think there's any real 'excuse' for critiquing a text for the character not being likable anymore, though you could critique it for having inconsistent behavior-- though even so, it'd be nice if it acknowledged the internal textual logic involved, since then you could use that in your analysis. So what I mean is, even if the character is OOC, there's the difference between their role in the plot being what it is and the logic of their identity being what it is-- sometimes there's a clash, yeah, but sometimes it's that people's ideas of what that identity is predetermines the author's possible plot direction so they would automatically disregard it....

It really really... really frustrates me the most when a moral judgment enters into this-- like, the bird-setting scene with Ron and Hermione seems a barometer of this in fandom, in some ways. Either Hermione's a harpie (how could JKR portray her that way? obviously she has a duty to her readers to uphold Hermione's moral character) or Ron is a weakling little loser for not standing up to her and being more manly. Perhaps there's also an argument somewhere out there about how Harry should've been a good friend and picked one of them over the other. I still don't understand-- even after all this time-- how any semirational person thinks 'but she's a bitch!' is a good argument about anything ^^;; I think it's not even stating the behavior's OOC-- it's just saying that they've liked this character before because they've never shown signs of a capacity for this behavior, so people could pass it off as 'oh, well, this is just a personal opinion', but it's really more insiduous when the character -has- shown some signs and the person conveniently ignored them in their moral outrage. In other words, without a coherent argument as to -why- the character didn't show signs of this before, it's just sort of... a smokescreen.

I know what you mean about Occlumency-- JKR's really like that about a lot of spells, I think, especially the important ones. Like, the info is sketchy and pieces fall together slowly. When you think about what Draco, Dumbledore, Voldy and Snape have in common, it becomes pretty clear why Harry's complete pants at it though, doesn't it :D I think associative thinking works pretty well with JKR-- like, 'if this works like this and this is like -that- other related thing, then that would probably work like this too'-- if that makes sense :> A lot of the errors people make is forgetting to see the interrelatedness within the text and taking characters & behaviors out of context, holding them up and saying-- look, look, Hermione isn't feminist enough. *headdesk*

Well, y'know :D In my dream out of context scenario, the HP fandom can of course stop (that's the morally right thing to do!) and commence with a really long vacation... :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It really really... really frustrates me the most when a moral judgment enters into this-- like, the bird-setting scene with Ron and Hermione seems a barometer of this in fandom, in some ways. Either Hermione's a harpie (how could JKR portray her that way? obviously she has a duty to her readers to uphold Hermione's moral character) or Ron is a weakling little loser for not standing up to her and being more manly.

Yeah, it's like...it's hard to pinpoint the problem. Because you can have a situation where you just don't understand why a character did something--but sometimes that's what good meta is for, to explain it. Like in NA when they did the werewolf demonstration, potterstinks ran out of the room first. And at first this was a problem for me because while I agreed he would be scared, I felt like as a teenaged boy he'd have to stay and pretend not to be at least for a bit. So at first it seemed just wrong, like they went for humor when it didn't quite make sense. But then after talking about it I realized wait--it made absolute sense. Eventually my original reading that it was wrong seemed totally off-base. But I couldn't have gotten there if I'd started from the position that it was wrong, that he shouldn't be portrayed that way, instead of asking *why* he acted that way.

Sometimes you can make a case for it being really OOC. Like, I do still think Ginny completely changed personalities between books 4 and 5, but then, that's canon. It's just that it's supposed to be a joke that Harry never saw her correctly. I still don't buy it, but I get how it's supposed to work. Similarly, as you said, you can't argue over somebody being "a bitch." It's really better to stay with facts, because otherwise you're just arguing about labels. Like "Hermione would never like a wuss," or "Ron would never like a bitch." Then people start replacing the actual character with their own definition of "bitch." They get less willing to actually look at what the book is saying about how people feel or how the characters interpret things.

Some people are willing to change--like, once they get the key they realize they were seeing things wrong. But sometimes you can see it coming when they won't be able to change their pov. Like I think the next big wank could be all about Snape, because there's a lot of discussion about him that's all based on really extreme views of his character, where he just has to be completely vindicated or completely despised. If he does something all good or all bad that can't be re-defined because it's the last book...that could be bad.