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[personal profile] reenka
I think it's not that I don't love H/D as much as always-- or don't adore brilliantly well-done things like [livejournal.com profile] lillithium's new HBP!H/D comic and [livejournal.com profile] cursescar's latest H/D ficlets-- but in the end, the enjoyment of these can be personal and contained within myself.

So it's fandom that's worn me to the bone. Seeing people reiterate the same (lame) points, make the same (lame) arguments, have the same (lame) wanks, write/draw mainly the same uber-self-indulgent stuff and nearly nothing else (and squee about it as if it's omg-so-new-and-brilliant-and-shockingly-amazing, gah)... having the same passionate reaction to that as I once did is just counterproductive. And no, by 'self-indulgent' I don't mean porn itself but rather the approach-- I ♥ (...well-done...) porn.

However-- however! I realize, I fully realize that it's the -nature- of fandom to be self-indulgent and not generally artistically ambitious on any grand level-- I know. It's my fault, not anyone else's, for caring, for not... fitting the dominant paradigm. Or something. And it's not even that -I'm- not self-indulgent, because anyone who's read some of my stuff-- or maybe the very fact that I'm in an online fandom for Harry Potter shows I am; it's merely that I don't want to be.
    Worse, I think I'm pointlessly reiterating my own point right at this moment, saying this, because I've said this a million times before & I'm sure you're all sick of it too. Though that's what being -around- means, for me at least: caring enough to pay attention, to go 'omg, not -this- again' and telling yourself all the lame isn't worth the nuggets of amazing, I guess.

I think the problem is that I take it too seriously, because in the end I approach writing-- all writing, all art-- with the same basic desires and passions. I can't... separate fandom fully into the the 'unimportant entertainment' category because the characters had at once point set up camp in my head, so-- so I guess I wanted the best for them. I didn't want to see them continuously mangled, but neither did I want to see only my own vision, because my vision -fed- on others' in the first place, and I adore fanon for the way it feeds upon itself, ideally, creating kaleidoscopic reproductions and mutations. At best, fanon is inspiration central, in other words-- but at worst (and lately), it fries my brain. What to do :/
~~

Anyway, this particular wangst brought upon by more reheated overdone meta with people saying, more or less, that the worth of 'realism' in writing is basically dependent on whether it hits their kinks. This has got to be my Number One Pet-Peeve in fandom, so it's very difficult for me to be objective, but I'll try. Even so, I wouldn't care if it wasn't so -prevalent-, if it wasn't -everywhere-; if I didn't seriously think, for instance, that people -prefer- fanon!Draco to canon!Draco, I wouldn't begrudge fandom its ice-prince!hair-dresser!Draco or its adoring!pathetic!lump!Harry. But. It's the dominant paradigm, and my tolerance for the indulgence is overwhelmed by the wrongness of the idea as 'reality'.
    (And most of my frustration is just restraining myself from trying to shake people and yell, WAKE UP! WAKE UP!! WTF PEOPLE??!)

Perhaps this also hits upon something else: much as I love fanon and canon separately (at times), there's nothing in fandom I despise quite so much as the careless willful confusing of the two (giving the people who say "Harry/Draco is canon" or "Snape/Draco is canon" some credit). Think of it as a game of telephone: the first person (canon) is clear and precise and sometimes vague or contradictory so we want to correct them or enlarge upon their point, perhaps; the second person is imaginative and funny, inserting a few jokes and footnotes into the 'canon' of the first; the third mumbles a few words and invents a few extraneous points entirely; the hundredth doesn't even remember that 'canon' existed, it seems.
    I mean, without continuous reference back to the first person's 'canon', it's basically a chaotic system, discordant and so messy as to be useless. All real meaning is gone by that point, and that's where I balk.


I'm not saying situational realism in whatever sense is the only 'valid' way to write-- far from it. I'm a person who mostly reads fantasy and romances and fantasy romances, so what do you think? 'Realistic' situations only matter if they further the story you-the-writer wants to tell in the way you want to tell it, that's it. But I would go so far as to say that all great well-remembered works of Fantasy and escapism (as well as everything else) I can currently remember are, in fact, psychologically realistic-- that is, they portray humanity as it is and sometimes as it could grow to be, -not- how it should be.
    And it's that it, that's it precisely: it's the should. It's the way people say they want their 'should' be reflected, somehow, by other writers, and why don't they write romance with the same precepts of 'should' in mind? Now, preference is one thing-- of course, we all like certain realities and certain fantasies and dislike others-- but in terms of discourse on the -nature- of literature in general or a particular text like Harry Potter, there's no place for 'should' unless you can make a rational, objective case for that alternative improving the text as it is, leaving authorial intent intact. Basic theory for editor's craft (though I'm unsure how this applies to lit-crit, which takes apart the text, I think saying you wanted such-and-such from a text and were -thus- disappointed is more 'I want to edit this' than crit, per se).

    So yeah, I'm talking about psychological realism in dramatic fiction (i.e., not parody or satire or other pure humor-- like say, the difference between [livejournal.com profile] djinniyah's Veela!Draco comic parody and writing the same thing in earnest to any degree). Without that, I do believe fiction is just... I dunno, limp. It's... false. I don't know how to explain the level of my investment in this, but I think it has something to do with just how much I've thought about the nature and (higher) purpose of Fantasy itself. It is because I respect and adore Fantasy that I want to be so careful with it, so desperate to separate it from mere Self-Indulgence (...and no, once again, I don't mean porn/kinkfic per se).
    And yes, there is a difference, a crucial, basic difference that in a lot of ways I admit I take as an axiom: because Fantasy enriches and illuminates the underpinnings of reality it's built on. Good fantasy serves as a metaphor-- a twisted mirror into who we are, who we could be; lazy, purely self-indulgent fantasy is merely what we think we want from other people and nothing else. Well, I'm not saying it shouldn't exist, but rather that arguing -for- it as aesthetically superior to psychological realism because 'we get enough of -that- at home'-- that's the thing that makes no sense to me.
   (Meaning, I don't care what anyone reads or writes as long as the question isn't being unnecessarily excused by or grounded in lit-crit concerns.)

    Not that my ideal is to have characters behave as 'just' teenagers (if they are); this is all about being true to all aspects of a character, their individual and social particulars both. Neither has intrinsically more weight than the other-- it's important to portray the character as themselves in several different contexts to achieve true realism (social/group dynamics as well as the range of behavior with specific friends & acquaintances & family, while alone and so on). Seeing people criticize the degree of -success- of a writer's particular approach is one thing, and perfectly reasonable. It's when people criticize the approach -itself- as 'too realistic' that it becomes something else entirely, and my mind sort of rebels, trying to imagine what's the use of writing about adolescents the way you'd -wish- they were (on purpose, that is, not through failure of experience or imagination, and not merely to get off from the intentional role-play aspect, almost, like with shota manga).

I think what I've gathered is that people separate 'realistic' from 'romantic' and I don't; therefore, they think realism of the sort I aspire to somehow shuts down the possibility of 'romantic love' and that emotional kick they're looking for in romances/fictional relationships. I find this sort of hilarious, because I can guarantee you there aren't many (sane) people more romantic than me-- in fact, I might be more of a romantic because I actually believe you can achieve romanticism within realism, and can write believable characterizations with intense emotional pay-off, passion, devotion, all that jazz. It's just more difficult, that is all.

Basically, I think anything is fine in writing as long as it's intentional and has a specific point, and doesn't try to justify itself with dishonest appeals to others' biases or whatever; call things by name, that's all I want. Failing that (naturally), I (hopelessly) wish that in being aware of their biases, people stopped using them as reasons to judge things-- i.e., just because you like something doesn't make it good or right or worthwhile to strive for all by itself.
    Meaning, before you apply this to me, that it -might- be worthwhile. You just have to stop justifying it using your own reactions (meaning, just because you don't like Hermione's behavior in HBP, for instance, doesn't make it 1) OOC or not Hermione-like; 2) better not to have been written). And of course, of course I'm aware saying all this yet again was pointless, useless, and somewhat pathetic. But at least it's out of my head for now.

Date: 2005-10-03 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] addictedkitten.livejournal.com
Ahahaha! Reena, you're so cute when you're unapologetically sincere about how you hate fandom and everyone in it.

Date: 2005-10-03 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
falksdjkl;a I only just realized how this soundsad lksja;fdgjdl
*dies*
...no, no, maybe I knew ^^;;;;
NO, I MEAN, I LOVE YOU ALL, IT'S ONLY THE... um... things you... say....er..... *coughs*

I hate the game, not the playa!!1

Date: 2005-10-04 12:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] addictedkitten.livejournal.com
Honey, you're totally lying. You love the game, you're addicted to the game, it's just the playas you hate. They make the game, sweetie, and they're apparently just not playing well enough to satisfy you.

Really, I know bitching about fandom is how you roll and everything, but I rarely see you display so much open contempt. It's a little scarifying, honestly. Get out. Get out while you still can!

Date: 2005-10-04 03:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Haha, maybe you're right. What I meant to say was that I didn't actually hate anybody, y'know? Like, um, I know it's individuals that make the game, but it's the numbers/patterns of people & groups' behavior-types that bother me, not one specific person feeling a specific way, I guess. Like, I don't actually have grudges against people-- I think the vast majority of people I know in fandom are lovely (as people), even if I might disagree with their ideas, I guess? Like, to me, people != their ideas or their fics or whatever. So I guess I love the potential of fandom and the reality sometimes (rarely), and I can often hate trends and fads and predominant conceptualizations within that-- but it's not like I'm saying 'omg, that person who wrote that fic is such a bitch!' or something, y'know?

Though you're right about getting out while I can :))

Date: 2005-10-03 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] loftily.livejournal.com
Haha, Reena, it is sometimes really intimidating to be friends with you and also to be a writer. :))

Date: 2005-10-03 10:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
aflkjshfkljh *facepalm*
I'm right there with you, being a complete doofus and never fulfilling my own expectations, trust me-- I'm actually much easier on other people :)) flkajj;ldjkg

Date: 2005-10-03 10:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] triestine.livejournal.com
I liked that point you made at the beginning. It really gets me that the artists I as a trained art historian/theorist appreciate the most are the least squeed over, while the generic 'pretty' stuff gets a thousand cheers. Gah fandom, learn a little, would you?

Date: 2005-10-03 10:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I think this is related to fandom mostly responding to things as fanart rather than 'art'-- meaning, the subject-matter is most important, and execution only goes so far as to most clearly communicate said subject-matter-- so if a piece transmits emotion or action, that emotion/action is more important, overall, than the method of transmission. Frustrating, but in retrospect closely tied to the very concept of 'fandom' ^^;;

Date: 2005-10-04 01:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likethemodel.livejournal.com
You are the most scarily in-your-face person in fandom.


I like it.

Date: 2005-10-04 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Hahah, that is so odd!!1 Oh my god. Probably not true-- that is, there are much more... um, angry(?) people than me-- but something to bring me up short if I'm getting to that point :))
Er. Thanks, I think...? *laughs*

Date: 2005-10-04 04:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likethemodel.livejournal.com
You're not angry so much as ... Very. Gutsy.

Date: 2005-10-04 05:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Ahahah!! More like oblivious, I believe, with a side of 'look! look! I'm harmless and I squeal!' if threatened :> Um, I think I mean to say, hopefully non-confrontational :>
But! Hee! I'm flattered 'cause of the Gryffinclaw that I am :>

Date: 2005-10-04 12:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notrafficlights.livejournal.com
*smacks you upside the head...*

*repeatedly...*

*HARD*

Date: 2005-10-04 10:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
...I do appreciate that, all things considered. Like, well, you're way scarier than me. ><;;;

Though, um, I still really believe that stuff about the importance of non-self-indulgent fantasy in terms of serious fic... though I realize I'm way too harsh on fandom (as I think I admitted, even).

Date: 2005-10-05 08:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notrafficlights.livejournal.com
Admitting it doesn't make you any less stupid-looking.

Date: 2005-10-05 08:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
But I wasn't trying to prove anything or prounounce anything of intended intelligence with that, just expressing my feelings of frustration. ^^;; Also, I've always raged against fandom in this way-- it's just that sometimes I get distracted. I mean, I really do think I ought to leave for a reason. ^^;;

yeah, I'm stupid with the spelling too...

Date: 2005-10-05 09:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notrafficlights.livejournal.com
But I wasn't trying to prove anything or prounounce anything of intended intelligence with that, just expressing my feelings of frustration.

Let me repeat. Ahem: THAT DOES MAKE YOU LOOK ANY LESS STUPID-LOOKING!

Don't leave fandom. Just cut the bullshit. Don't like something? Ignore it. Write your own shit. You're a brilliant fic writer, darling. You just seem to spend more time bitching about pointless shit than using your talents. And when you do use your talents, you seem happier with things and bitch less, which probably adds a few years to your lifespan, ye ken?

Oh, and please, for fuck's sake, please drop this...

Failing that (naturally), I (hopelessly) wish that in being aware of their biases, people stopped using them as reasons to judge things

...load of hypocritical bullshit. It's getting really fucking old.

Date: 2005-10-05 09:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Heh, at least I know what you mean now ^^;; On the one hand, I see what you mean about the judgment hypocrisy, but on the other I honestly am just expressing frustration rather than saying 'don't do this, this is bad' (more saying, 'there's too much of this and not enough of that', which is definitely just my preference). I think the way I write seems so strident and um, totally convinced that it does sound like I'm handing down decrees or what have you, but I promise it's that it's that I'm too strident in effect rather than prescriptive in intent. To me, judgment is when you confuse what's subjective opinion and what isn't, whereas I'm always aware what's what in my head, even if it's unclear in writing. ^^;;

I -have- been blocked and finicky since HBP, and normally fandom would help me by inspiring me, but it isn't. I can't necessarily get out of my own head enough to see the 'answer' immediately, in terms of characterization and similar things about dynamic & direction, so fandom could be so helpful-- I mean, it's not like I feel I've got something to teach fandom or I could do it better, really. Finishing long projects requires a lot of energy/inspiration, and fandom just... frustrates me rather than inspires me a lot of times. I -want- to read tons of stuff I like and rec it and squee and review, see-- I read/write in tandem. I -thrive- on mutual inspiration and such.

Like, I was just rereading some of Silvia Kundera's H/D stories, and I was so in love again-- I just adore that feeling. But being so enamoured also means I -really- hate things when I hate things, y'know? So I admit I've probably been blocked and cranky and expecting fanfic to inspire me like it used to and make things easier and-- it hasn't been working, I guess, and I should really stop fixating on the Good Old Days and move on, but then I reread something like Silvia's stuff and swoon and want that again and it starts all over -.- Meaning, I only bitch about fanfic 'cause I like reading it so much ^^;; I can't help checking out the new H/D fics and being let down and putting myself through the stupid hoops, and I -know- I should stop because yeah, I realize that's stupid but that's obsession for you ^^;;

Date: 2005-10-05 09:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notrafficlights.livejournal.com
But being so enamoured also means I -really- hate things when I hate things, y'know?

Ahh, I see the problem now. You need to be like the rest of us and realise HBP for the load of shite it was. C'mon. You know you want to.

Date: 2005-10-04 06:12 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Hmmmm..)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
So it's fandom that's worn me to the bone. Seeing people reiterate the same (lame) points, make the same (lame) arguments, have the same (lame) wanks, write/draw mainly the same uber-self-indulgent stuff and nearly nothing else (and squee about it as if it's omg-so-new-and-brilliant-and-shockingly-amazing, gah)...

Is there some story or picture or idea everyone likes at the moment that you think sucks? It's hard to know what people are doing wrong without a specific thing.

I think the problem is that I take it too seriously, because in the end I approach writing-- all writing, all art-- with the same basic desires and passions. I can't... separate fandom fully into the the 'unimportant entertainment' category because the characters had at once point set up camp in my head, so-- so I guess I wanted the best for them.

But isn't this what maybe what those other people want too? Only maybe what you think is what's best for them isn't what they think is best for them? It sounds like you're saying that you approach fanfic and art from a higher standard than everyone else but then say that you don't. Fanart *is* fanart in that it's unique in some ways. You can respond to a sonnet as a sonnet without not also responding to it as poetry. Why is that recent H/D comic okay but other stuff not?

Anyway, this particular wangst brought upon by more reheated overdone meta with people saying, more or less, that the worth of 'realism' in writing is basically dependent on whether it hits their kinks.

But that's not what they're saying in that thread if you take it in context. They're responding to the idea that stuff they didn't enjoy reading in HBP they should have enjoyed because it's "realistic" and just lightly saying, "Well, I prefer to read the unrealistic then because I didn't like that." The word "realistic" is being mis-used to begin with, though. I mean, HP is not some gritty story of the sexual politics of modern teens. You're associating realism with with having the characters seem real because the author put care into it. The Gryffindor Creek stuff in HBP is being called "realistic" because people are supposed to recognize types and generic teen behavior--teens are jerks, therefore Ron/Lav is realistic, therefore you should like it. It's a totally different thing, imo.

Also-tangent-they're talking about how "fluff" is considered unrealistic, which always bothers me because sometimes people can point to the most bizarre stuff and as long as someone is being ass-raped it's realistic. I got into this discussion once a few years ago, but I think it's weird the way sometimes people act like anything positive can't be realistic. In LOTR-fandom this came down to stories about Frodo picking mushrooms were fluff and so not realism/pointless (even though this is something we know that canonically Frodo would do and enjoy) while a story where the entire Shire including Bilbo rapes him as a child (with this eventually leading up to LOTR canon) is realism.

Date: 2005-10-04 07:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I try not to give specifics in terms of things I thought were sucky 'cause it would usually create wank and/or hurt people's feelings or whatever, plus it's not as if I'm telling people 'stop THIS-- yes, I mean THIS', because I know I'm not totally objective & even if I was that wouldn't matter, 'cause who cares what I think? But anyway, these (http://www.livejournal.com/users/red_rahl/40026.html#cutid1) two (http://www.livejournal.com/users/d_copper/81773.html) H/D comics sort of drove home all that's wrong with fanon to me recently... I mean, they might be exaggerated & humorous to a degree, but that really is how a lot of people write the pairing, kinda. They sort of hurt my head, anyway, not because it's done at all, but because it's so very popular.....

I don't think it's that what I think 'best' is so different as my desired method to achieve it (ie, the hardest way and/or most true way possible) is different. It's not that I care what people want (ie, Harry&Draco to get married, or Harry to die, or Draco to become a Death Eater or a spy or who cares), but that I want the process to make sense all the way because otherwise I feel like it's cheating, like it's saying one couldn't do it the hard way-- like one -needs- the adoring, soft Harry, or the I-don't-hate-you-anymore Draco or whatever short-cut. The comic by [livejournal.com profile] lillithium wasn't 'the best', but it was better because it took their issues a bit more seriously and Harry and Draco were a bit more IC-- that is... it wasn't so easy, didn't feel like instant gratification? Something like that. Also, as fanart and as art it was better done :> I mean, I do like fanart -as- fanart and as art (just as I want both style & ICness in fanfic), so both are important, but the fannish aspect means a bit more usually.

It wasn't just that I was responding to that thread only-- other people further on were saying things like 'who wants real life, I've got enough of that at home'-- and hits my whole issue with people who think stories aren't or shouldn't be 'real' on a deeper level, as real or realer (potentially more significant/meaningful) than, uh, real life.... I mean, some people did deviate from merely talking about HBP, I thought, at least at points. I wasn't really defending HBP so much as taking it to a more abstract level that some others were taking it to, where they were saying they don't -want- realistic in whatever form, regardless of whether it might fit or not.

I mean, you can definitely say HBP-romance wasn't well-done (it wasn't, really), but talking about the theoretical underpinnings of 'realism' and 'romance' itself to justify the points is different than talking about how well-done the thing the author was doing was. It seemed like they were saying what the author was doing was misguided, too, not just that it wasn't done well. I mean, Ron-with-Lavender as a concept doesn't startle me that much, taking Ron's personality into account-- I mean, if you wanted to disprove that, you'd need to talk about Ron and Lavender's personalities in specific, not the generalities of how they're written. No one needs to like it-- I was never saying they did-- just that disliking it on a theoretical basis of some sort seems disingenuous.

I totally want positive-realism (that's where the romanticism comes in), myself-- I just want it to be... um, backed up, I guess? I think using realism as 'dark' or 'pathetic' or 'hopeless' fiction is what bothers me in the first place, too-- I was saying yeah, I'm more romantic than those people 'cause they accept the usage of 'realism' or 'real-life' to mean hopelessness and I don't; not in that thread, but lower down, people were definitely connecting meaninglessness & realism, and that's a -huge- pet-peeve. Actually, neither ass-rape -nor- fluff-yeah-happy-bunnies is necessarily 'realistic' at all-- everything depends on approach and context and the writer's ability to build a background and to characterize thoroughly. Realism isn't a mood thing like 'angst' or 'fluff', mushroom-picking vs. cold mornings where you're alone and there's a discarded condom on the floor-- to me, realism is -describing- what happens in a way that makes a reader suspend their disbelief and 'see' it happening.

Date: 2005-10-04 06:12 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Hmmmm..)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
Which brings me back to HP because what's realistic about, say, Hermione Granger's love life in canon? She's presented as a somewhat plain (at least not overly pretty) girl who doesn't care about her looks. She's very studious, bossy, often shrill, and is known to drone on about stuff that bores other people. At 15 a 17-year-old world-famous sports celebrity comes to the school, passes over all the girls from three schools, some of whom are his own age, falls in love with her, and takes her to a ball where she's so pretty all the popular girls get shown up. Then, when the guy she's been just friends with since she was 11 starts going out with another girl, he only learns how much he'd prefer to be with her. Because an easy-going guy like Ron never enjoys relationships with light-hearted pretty, sometimes silly girls who thinks he's great. He always comes running back to the plain girl who nags him and can't hide how inadequate she thinks he is.

I'm not meaning to rant here against R/Hr-I accept that it's canon. But it sounds just as wish-fulfilling as any other fluff, particularly since presumably both R/Hr and H/G are going to lead straight to till-death-do-we-part perfect marriages. Maybe the people in that thread used the wrong word because they picked it up from the other people who first used it wrongly, but they obviously weren't really saying that they liked their stories where people didn't act in ways that made sense within the story. I could certainly follow the shipping stories in HBP, but if I'm thinking of something that really felt real to me I'd be more likely to point to Harry and Cho's date-which is probably why H/C gets argued over more like they're a real couple.

Perhaps this also hits upon something else: much as I love fanon and canon separately (at times), there's nothing in fandom I despise quite so much as the careless willful confusing of the two (giving the people who say "Harry/Draco is canon" or "Snape/Draco is canon" some credit).

On one hand canon is the books. It also means something that people see as subtext, sometimes in a tongue-in-cheek way. It seems to me that things like "Snape/Draco is canon" exist in fandom because it arose to describe something people meant and understood as fans. I'm more annoyed when "canon" is used to put down interpretations I think are canon. So you have people saying, "In canon, So-and-so is X, Y and Z and did this and thinks that..." when I'm like um, no, s/he is not like that in canon and here's why. That way it's used to start off by claiming anybody who disagrees with the person is not-canon because that person's experience with the book is more canon than anyone else's. Or what they prefer is canon.

But I don't see anybody doing that with S/D and H/D as canon. Use of the term that way, to me, implies the opinion of the person saying it. I've never been mistaken yet that the person actually meant it's canon like R/Hr (meaning that Ron and Hermione are going to date and kiss and stuff within the pages of the book). Maybe it would be slightly less confusing if we had another word to refer to that, like "Snape/Draco is so kanon," but people seem to know what they mean when people use it in that context. It started getting used that way because it made sense to people and seemed natural, I guess. They know what they mean when they say it.

Date: 2005-10-04 07:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Because an easy-going guy like Ron never enjoys relationships with light-hearted pretty, sometimes silly girls who thinks he's great. He always comes running back to the plain girl who nags him and can't hide how inadequate she thinks he is.

Ahahahaha. :D :D :D :D <3 I think to get this you'd have to separate 'realism' (as in, 'a guy like Ron') from just talking about Ron, if that makes sense, without any 'should' or 'would's in there telling you how someone in his position is likely to act, y'know? I don't think Ron is... -that- much of a regular guy, or at least he's been shaped and defined by his relationship by Hermione as well as Harry. He's also had a bit of a crush on her (I think) ever since the infamous 'she's a nightmare, honestly' comment. Hermione drives him insane, but they've got a very close bond, oddball as it is, I think (whether JKR's good at portraying it aside).

Neither Ron nor Hermione nor Harry seem to have any really close/significant relationships outside the Trio-- I mean... so yeah, while he -thought- (for good reason) he'd like Lavender the way Harry -thought- he'd like Cho... well, he's all hung up on Hermione & he sees past all her foibles and weirdnesses the way he couldn't with Lavender because he doesn't know her like he does Hermione. To him, Hermione's not the bushy-haired bookworm anymore, and I don't think she has been since sometime in 1st year, possibly around that time with the troll~:) They really know each other intuitively, it seems, 'cause they worked well as a team several times now, even if Ron -sucks- at self-awareness, communication and having a clue of any sort <3 Oh Ron <3

I know what you mean about it being wish-fulfilling, it's just that R/Hr has been built up a bit longer than most pairings in most fanfics :> *is catty* I don't mind the fluffiness or the fantasy of the premise, I just think that what separates Fantasy & Self-Indulgence is the effort the writer puts into setting up & justifying the premise they start with and grounding it in -other- things that -are- believable, and letting the characters have internal logic and self-consistency. Perhaps I should have defined this a bit more, but yeah-- that's why you can easily say 'but JKR hasn't done quite enough to sell R/Hr'-- and well, they're not together yet, still-- but the very concept of R/Hr as it is in the books shouldn't be so outrageous, y'know, and even if it -is-, then all or most romance is similarly outrageous in some (other) way. Within the axiomatic existence of Ron & Hermione (at least as I see them), they do fit-- I don't know about forever-and-ever-with-a-perfect-marriage, but since they're people who can change & grow and mature, even that is within the rather large realm of pure possibility (in theory).

I think while H/C was 'realistic', it wasn't really... um, a good idea for Harry, in the end? One could sort of tell that, with the Cho characterization she picked. I think JKR isn't good at selling 'romance' to some people, while H/C wasn't romance, it was just like any other characterization of two people, in a way-- they dated, but there was never any real... um, romance between them, if that makes sense.

Like, even with H/G-- I can see where JKR was coming from (though trust me, I didn't want to)-- I could see why Harry would act the way he did (that is, why he'd like Ginny, why he'd be jealous of Dean so suddenly, why he'd be torn between Ron & Ginny, why he'd finally just snap & kiss her, why he'd let her go), it's just that it wasn't portrayed believably. With Ron & Hermione-- a lot of people have trouble with the very concept of their supposed compatibility (because the portrayal isn't as bad, so more issues get raised, maybe)-- mostly because they say 'but a guy like Ron' or 'a girl like Hermione', a lot of times, instead of just talking about -Ron- and -Hermione-. It's not so much about it being 'real' vs. 'unreal' in this case so much as... um, a natural progression within the inner logic of the story-- and outside the inner logic, well, may other things would break down, not just the romances.

Date: 2005-10-04 08:26 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Blah blah blah blah blah)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
Ahahahaha. :D :D :D :D <3 I think to get this you'd have to separate 'realism' (as in, 'a guy like Ron')

Exactly. I wasn't saying that I don't think Ron likes Hermione because obviously he does. Within canon it's not like I'd argue that Ron really liked Lavender better. It's just that if he acts like a jerk with her because the author wants you to remember how when you were in high school kids would act like him (as was being said)...well, then in that case I'm going to that's not going to work. As you said, Ron isn't just some ordinary guy.

But the rest is all just us filling in blanks for ourselves. We don't really know whether they know each other intuitively or how Ron privately thinks about Hermione except what we see. The only thing we see with them is when they're arguing with each other or getting jealous over each other. We sometimes get Hermione's explanations of Ron's behavior (He's jealous, he's got all these older brothers and he doesn't say anything but it bothers him...). We see Hermione blush when Ron says he loves her. They like each other, is what we know. Beyond that we have to fill in for ourselves exactly why. Really I can only think of one place where I get a vibe of *why*, and that's when Hermione looks impressed with Ron tearing up Percy's letter. With Harry we're more in his head, at least, and Ginny tells him what she likes about him in sixth year, at least. But I still am very aware of what the author is saying more than feeling like caring about these two as a couple. Particularly since Ginny, to me, is too much one big conceit of the author's to begin with with her whole personality-transplant that was basically the author's way of saying Harry never saw her before blah blah blah.

So I'm not really concerned about why these couples like each other. I get them, in canon, I think. It's not that deep. I just don't see a real difference between dealing with that and dealing with fanfic where you also just go along with stuff because you like other aspects of it. HP ships are so big now it seems like there's got to be in-jokes and meta-commentary jokes on all of them. Like, the two comics you linked to...I don't quite get what you mean about them. They just seem like a joke on aspects of H/D as a ship. The other comic is obviously is more beautifully drawn, but reading it I wouldn't have guessed that that was something you would hold up as not doing it wrong. I mean, it even takes place during HBP, which you said you hated to read...? Harry apologizes for the curse and they kiss.

It just feel like there's something I'm missing so I don't really get what you're trying to say.

That's not subtext, it's just a stupid joke, y'know? With H/D, I'm just bitter 'cause people think it's so much easier and it's not, it just has different issues. </i. Well, yeah it's just a stupid joke and I'd hope it wouldn't be used as actual evidence. I can't say how people see H/D as easier now since I don't write it--it does seem to have different issues to me now. It also seems more interesting as a canon relationship (not necessarily sexual). But maybe they're just seeing it in ways that you're not. I do feel like canon at least points more towards it than it ever did before. Pointing not in terms of this being what the author really means but that it's closer to the road than it was before. I mean, I don't know if we see the same characters to begin with so we might see their slashing differently. Can't help you with people quoting the "I want to see what DM is doing inside you thing," though. I hate those animated icons of Harry kissing Ginny, and I can't stop them either! (Btw, yes, I do think it's funny that you're saying that under an icon of 12-year-old Draco saying he's Harry's gay lover.)

Date: 2005-10-04 09:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I think both Ron & Hermione are jerks to each other in HBP-- well, differently-- but authorial intent aside, I think Ron was really that clueless, thinking he needed experience, thinking this was what he was -supposed- to do, completely oblivious of Hermione's feelings, and just generally being a blundering idiot. Haha, though I just realized you meant that about being a jerk to Lavender. ^^; That sort of um, slides right off my memory the way I 'forget' Hermione being mean to McLaggen, sort of. With Lav, he -was- being a boor, but not in a way I find OOC for him, I guess--? Sort of like, Harry was a boor in a different way with Cho, too (like, with his overreactions to her crying and him generally being insensitive), so... in the end, I think he -tried- to let her off gently (um, remember how he would hide behind Harry, almost?), but basically she was freaking him out so he bolted like the buck he is. Like, he was trying, I think, to do what he was supposed to, and, uh... well, he was rather inept. To say the least. But then, Lavender was a bit much, too.

You're right in that I'm filling in the blanks, what with him 'getting' her, but it's one of those 'most reasonable explanation' things (because them -not- really being friends makes no sense), sort of the way people filled in the blanks with Draco before HBP. Well, not that I'm actually using canonical quotes or what have you, because I suck at that, but I suppose I could if I tried ^^;;; But yeah, I'm definitely extrapolating as to why, and it's not directly shown-- but it makes sense to me on a basic level the way some characters (Ron, Draco, Hermione & Snape especially) make sense to people intuitively, so that probably helps. Putting Ron & Hermione together (as friends), with the experiences they've shared, I can sort of reconstruct their relationship in a sense, y'know? Not too rationally, 'cause it's just hard for me to explain things linearly a lot of times (though I try!). Silvia Kundera's R/Hr fics, like say, `A Series of Definitions (http://www.geocities.com/wanderbymistake/definitions.html)' (which, in some ways, is more R/Hr than the books and I mean, well, that's why I get it) and this (http://www.geocities.com/wanderbymistake/welcome.html) post-Hogwarts one do a good job, though :>

With a fanfic, though, the romance is the -point- in a way that it's not in canon, so I'm okay with reading HP and 'going along' with the romance stuff based in theory and personal extrapolation, but with fanfic I feel I'm being cheated if I have to do that because that's the point of fanfic, is to focus on the why of characters, to me. I mean, genfic aside, with shippy fic I expect different things, y'know? Especially with slash, and other ships where it's not 'already' canon-- you have to build it up, to make it fit believably, and I need a different approach to the characterization (more realistic? hahah, in my sense) because that's why I read it.

Date: 2005-10-05 03:44 am (UTC)
ext_6866: (Artistic)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
I think both Ron & Hermione are jerks to each other in HBP-- well, differently-- but authorial intent aside, I think Ron was really that clueless, thinking he needed experience, thinking this was what he was -supposed- to do, completely oblivious of Hermione's feelings, and just generally being a blundering idiot.

LOL! Yes, to Lavender! But anyway, yeah I do think this is what Ron is doing; this is talked about in canon, though. I mean, we have Ginny telling him he's a loser and right after that he goes after Lavender etc. That's what the story is about. Filling in the blanks there is using what the story's about. The blanks I'm talking about are *why* Ron likes Hermione specifically, which we don't know. He's never told Harry exactly what he loves about her, which just know they've always sort of liked each other while H/Hr haven't. It's the same with Draco. I'm making a distinction between filling in blanks using information and filling in blanks using your imagination--sometimes people flip from one to the other. There were plenty of blanks to be filled in with information on Draco pre-HBP, many of which may never be cleared up one way or the other, but you can argue it with canon facts. Other stuff is just pure imagination.

With a fanfic, though, the romance is the -point- in a way that it's not in canon, so I'm okay with reading HP and 'going along' with the romance stuff based in theory and personal extrapolation, but with fanfic I feel I'm being cheated if I have to do that because that's the point of fanfic, is to focus on the why of characters, to me.

Yeah, fanfic is usually based on that, though people have lots of different things that they want to do that way. I mean, for some people the story that pops into their head is about something else. I might not want to read it as much as another story, but really, why should it be anything? And then, of course, sometimes there's a story that's about the "why" of the characters and I just think it's wrong.:-)

Date: 2005-10-05 04:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I probably -was- using my imagination too much, but at least I wasn't trying to project -myself- onto the characters (as far as I know), which is what people tend to do when they talk about a 'girl like Hermione wouldn't/shouldn't like Ron', blahblah. This is all about people saying-- what-- that the romance (R/Hr, nevermind the H/G, it was barely there) in HBP wasn't only not well-done but also... OOC or 'unrealistic' or realistic or, like, whatever it was, they didn't buy it--? Like, not just that Ron is a jerk (to Lavender?? uh...) but that he's somehow not so Ron-like for 'using' her like that, apparently, or Hermione not so Hermione-like for caring about Ron or whatever. Though perhaps this is the difference between 'does' and 'did'-- as in, obviously she does now but she didn't before, therefore it made no sense--?

I think, um... what I'm trying to say is, the way Ron & Hermione interact-- depending on the reader, we don't need to hear -why- he likes Hermione in words because it's just that their dynamic is... um, familiar? (Like, the bits where he teases her about being a nightmare or argues about Pettigrew or whatever-- it either clicks as 'oh, that's how it is with them' or it doesn't, but I think it's -meant- to click, or something). Like, it fits into a slot, personality-dynamic-wise if you know what I mean. To people of a certain mindset, it makes perfect sense why they'd like each other without having to have it be explained, because the, um, overall axioms they're drawing upon (much like James & Lily or Sirius & Remus... or, uh, Harry & Draco-- different stencils, similar idea). So it's more intuition/group-think(??) than imagination (or pure irrationality), per se, if that makes sense.

I wouldn't really begrudge people writing fanfics about whatever popped into their heads-- I mean, sure, why not, who cares-- if only I didn't feel there was such a severe lack of shippy stories (at least within H/D) that satisfied me as addressing the 'why' of the two characters, and felt were 'wrong' (yeah!), I guess--? Everything is generally white-washed and idealized and just... y'know, full of short-cuts, and what's amusing and cute for the first 1,000 fics really starts to get to me after the 10,000th fic, y'know? If I wasn't in such the huge minority in terms of what I wanted from H/D development and characterization, I wouldn't be so frustrated with silly fluff like those comics-- but this is the dominant paradigm, as I'd said, and that just makes me want to chew through things, especially 'cause fanfic is my source of inspiration. Ahh, I should just give up & leave already.

Date: 2005-10-04 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
With those comics-- my issue is that it's not just a joke, y'know, it's actually reflective of how a lot of people honestly write them. It's exaggerated, as I said, but the bottom line is that the adoring!oh-so-impressed!Harry and the cool-as-ice!prince!Draco is everywhere, not just in that comic. It's not just 'some' aspects of the ship, it's the major aspects of the ship. Even the 'serious' popular fics like say, Shadow of His Wings or Transfigurations or Resolution or Love Under Will-- pick one, pick 'em all-- have this sort of star-struck Harry that drives me insane. And Draco is of course gorgeous and perfect and oh-so-popular and amazing and special and... gag me now. With [livejournal.com profile] lillithium's comic, it wasn't the 'best' (I don't think I said it was...?) by any stretch of the imagination, yeah-- it was just better, not as horribly OOC (as in, I take what small mercies I find). Yes, it takes place in HBP (a strike against it), but... it's -so- well-done artistically (and I -am- a style-slut, I always admit), and basically, there isn't the uber-cool!fanon!Draco or the putty-in-his-hands!Harry (Harry had -some- backbone, and Draco had -some- ambiguity, omg, amazing!). He sort of apologizes but he doesn't, too (like, he excuses himself), so it's... not as bad as, well-- perfect-ice-prince!Draco or crying-clinging-baby!Draco. I mean, these seem like total parodies, but these characterizations are seriously everywhere (like maggots). Um. ^^;;;

Er, I do think we're closer to the goal of them understanding each other, with Harry&Draco, of course we are-- it's just not necessarily romantic or whatever, gah. I think we see the characters pretty similarly (or at least, I tend to agree with you, ahahah, whereas I don't always state things clearly/sincerely enough to be agreed with, I suspect), but the slashing... my feelings on their slashing have been weird and conflicted since HBP (as in, sometimes I don't want to slash them at all in frustration and just-- burn-out). :> I think I'm just responding to fandom enthusiasm negatively, 'cause I'm bitter about the negativity about OoTP, and I liked their OoTP dynamic more, and yeah, this -does- have different difficulties and no one's acknowledging that enough for my tastes :>

Well, the icon's meant to be a fandom_wank reference, so it was meant to be ironic :> :>

Date: 2005-10-04 07:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I think what bothers me with the S/D-is-canon thing or whatever is that people are giving too much weight to subtext, making it too... ingrained, or something, like it's 'really there' and 'omg, look at that passage we can take out of context to show OMG THEY WANT EACH OTHER SO BAD', like the stuff with 'what's Malfoy doing inside you'. That just makes me groan horribly. That's not subtext, it's just a stupid joke, y'know? With H/D, I'm just bitter 'cause people think it's so much easier and it's not, it just has different issues.

Date: 2005-10-06 03:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] modillian.livejournal.com
there is a difference, a crucial, basic difference that in a lot of ways I admit I take as an axiom: because Fantasy enriches and illuminates the underpinnings of reality it's built on. Good fantasy serves as a metaphor

YES. So much word. This is why fantasy works for me: it changes and twists, but in the end hits with such painful accuracy that breathing is impossible. Yes.

Date: 2005-10-06 03:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
In the end, JRR Tolkien said it perfectly in his `On Fairy Stories' essay about the eucatastrophe :D
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