(reading as children)
Aug. 7th, 2005 03:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaI was reading fandom_wank out of sheer masochism again, and for the first time like, ever, someone said something that made me think, and not in the 'wtfeth??!' sort of way which has so tired me.
Basically, this is a tangent as to whether one could classify the HP books as children's books, and what that might mean. I have never really had a solid opinion on whether they are or not-- I can be convinced either way, and there's a quote that implies JKR does find them to be children's books, dark and increasingly muddled with adult elements though they are, though before I thought she said she wrote them without an audience in mind.
That isn't what's interesting, though. Then![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
white_serpent said,
Beginning with book 4, though, the characters are older, and we expect more of the world surrounding them. But we don't get it. It's the same world which works on some levels and is gosh-wow! magic on others. It's the "gosh-wow! magic" bits that cause the problems. Healing magic? Mind/memory magic? These are neat conveniences, but they have wider implications that one can only conclude Rowling has not pondered.
To make them work, you need to read the books as you read when you're a child-- just accept the world for what it is. Accept the characters are supposed to be likeable because the book tells you they are. The instant I start applying critical thought to any of those factors, they fall apart.
And something just clicked in my head-- why the deconstructive (rather than just speculative) type of HP meta itself has dissatisfied me for so long, and that's just it: it messes with the ability (or desire) to read as children and thus to have the story -or- the HP world itself really -work- in one's mind to its fullest capacity. And this is regardless of whether they're children's books or not.
Possibly this does nothing but explain how -I- feel, because I myself find that yeah, the books fall apart for me if I start applying critical, deconstructive thought too much and try to find out how they work-- the ethical/magical/world-building elements just don't hold up that well under real pressure, and yet there's also a feeling like I don't -have- to be disappointed if I just-- suspend my disbelief (which not everyone can... but perhaps that, more than anything, is why some books are meant for children). It's sort of like discovering that pretty birdsong you hear is just a wind-up toy with stuck-on parts and a broken foot.
In my case, HP demonstrated this dichotomy between ways of reading especially clearly, because before I was seduced by the H/D fandom, when I first looked at the books, I'd refused to read past the first 10 pages because it just didn't make any sense, and in a way I felt the book was insulting my intelligence. And after some time in fandom... I found I loved Harry and his world so much that nearly everything in it delighted me and amused me. What might once have seemed ham-fisted now appeared quirky and fun-- or perhaps more importantly, I was so used to the Dursleys from fanfic, say, I was able to accept them in the books as just a part of Harry's life. It's just... the way they are.
With some children's books, like Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan or the Narnia books and most especially fairy-tales of all kinds, they can definitely be both enjoyed and analyzed, though... I just don't get that same feeling with HP. Even with my class on Narnia and the other one on Alice and The Water-Babies and The Jungle Book, I felt... I don't know, entirely too grown-up. I don't know how else to explain it.
I can't help but feel that their strongest magic resides in the sheer glee of belief. When I read them, their worlds and characters become utterly real to me, the same way rocks and trees and clouds are real, and I get completely carried away from myself, to a world where literally anything is possible. And I admit that for all my attraction, emulation, admiration and deep respect for reason and doubt, I compulsively read YA fantasy in the first place because my first love has always been my sense of wonder.
~~
Also, I'm really starting to feel... like maybe there's a connection between liking strong, brave, intelligent girls as heroines (often dismissed by fandom because they're 'too perfect' and 'unrealistic' and Mary Sue-ish), and reading 'as a child'-- that is, looking up in some way, admiring, thinking of the glorious future when you could have adventures and be everything you ever wanted to be.
I still love characters like that, of course, and I don't think I always read blindly-- I just happen to love strong, self-possessed (bitchy also helps) women characters. I always liked heroes of all sorts, and since I definitely identified with being a girl, I looked for girls to admire and identify with, and there weren't a lot. When I grew older, it took more and more to make me really admire someone, I guess, but a part of me... is still willing to be wowed by fiery girls, in real life or in stories. Even when I got older, I don't think I really stopped looking for the truth in everything too good to be true.
Basically, this is a tangent as to whether one could classify the HP books as children's books, and what that might mean. I have never really had a solid opinion on whether they are or not-- I can be convinced either way, and there's a quote that implies JKR does find them to be children's books, dark and increasingly muddled with adult elements though they are, though before I thought she said she wrote them without an audience in mind.
That isn't what's interesting, though. Then
white_serpent said,Beginning with book 4, though, the characters are older, and we expect more of the world surrounding them. But we don't get it. It's the same world which works on some levels and is gosh-wow! magic on others. It's the "gosh-wow! magic" bits that cause the problems. Healing magic? Mind/memory magic? These are neat conveniences, but they have wider implications that one can only conclude Rowling has not pondered.
To make them work, you need to read the books as you read when you're a child-- just accept the world for what it is. Accept the characters are supposed to be likeable because the book tells you they are. The instant I start applying critical thought to any of those factors, they fall apart.
And something just clicked in my head-- why the deconstructive (rather than just speculative) type of HP meta itself has dissatisfied me for so long, and that's just it: it messes with the ability (or desire) to read as children and thus to have the story -or- the HP world itself really -work- in one's mind to its fullest capacity. And this is regardless of whether they're children's books or not.
Possibly this does nothing but explain how -I- feel, because I myself find that yeah, the books fall apart for me if I start applying critical, deconstructive thought too much and try to find out how they work-- the ethical/magical/world-building elements just don't hold up that well under real pressure, and yet there's also a feeling like I don't -have- to be disappointed if I just-- suspend my disbelief (which not everyone can... but perhaps that, more than anything, is why some books are meant for children). It's sort of like discovering that pretty birdsong you hear is just a wind-up toy with stuck-on parts and a broken foot.
In my case, HP demonstrated this dichotomy between ways of reading especially clearly, because before I was seduced by the H/D fandom, when I first looked at the books, I'd refused to read past the first 10 pages because it just didn't make any sense, and in a way I felt the book was insulting my intelligence. And after some time in fandom... I found I loved Harry and his world so much that nearly everything in it delighted me and amused me. What might once have seemed ham-fisted now appeared quirky and fun-- or perhaps more importantly, I was so used to the Dursleys from fanfic, say, I was able to accept them in the books as just a part of Harry's life. It's just... the way they are.
With some children's books, like Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan or the Narnia books and most especially fairy-tales of all kinds, they can definitely be both enjoyed and analyzed, though... I just don't get that same feeling with HP. Even with my class on Narnia and the other one on Alice and The Water-Babies and The Jungle Book, I felt... I don't know, entirely too grown-up. I don't know how else to explain it.
I can't help but feel that their strongest magic resides in the sheer glee of belief. When I read them, their worlds and characters become utterly real to me, the same way rocks and trees and clouds are real, and I get completely carried away from myself, to a world where literally anything is possible. And I admit that for all my attraction, emulation, admiration and deep respect for reason and doubt, I compulsively read YA fantasy in the first place because my first love has always been my sense of wonder.
~~
Also, I'm really starting to feel... like maybe there's a connection between liking strong, brave, intelligent girls as heroines (often dismissed by fandom because they're 'too perfect' and 'unrealistic' and Mary Sue-ish), and reading 'as a child'-- that is, looking up in some way, admiring, thinking of the glorious future when you could have adventures and be everything you ever wanted to be.
I still love characters like that, of course, and I don't think I always read blindly-- I just happen to love strong, self-possessed (bitchy also helps) women characters. I always liked heroes of all sorts, and since I definitely identified with being a girl, I looked for girls to admire and identify with, and there weren't a lot. When I grew older, it took more and more to make me really admire someone, I guess, but a part of me... is still willing to be wowed by fiery girls, in real life or in stories. Even when I got older, I don't think I really stopped looking for the truth in everything too good to be true.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-08-09 11:45 am (UTC)There's wonder and then there's lies.
I'm totally with you there! I am obsessive with not-lying in fiction, especially fantasy fiction (to the point of obsessiveness where I jump at shadows and get really... uh... overly upset at
fanon!Dracotoo-good-to-be-true characterizations sometimes). Yeah, so I dig you. Possibly I just take fanfic in a more adult/serious/real fashion than HP canon, and that's what it all revolves around, I dunno. I remember hating HP canon 'cause none of it felt 'real', characterization-wise, and then I fell in love with the characters through fanfic & just... looked at the bright side of life, and automatically patched up the holes in the narrative, sometimes without even realizing I was doing it.I do think I do the patching thing with Ginny a lot 'cause I liked her from my own stories..... Can't help but be attached to her & want to understand her after writing her so much, really...
There's a point where make-believe becomes non-believe because the believeable parts of the game/story/world stop working because they're
rapedoverbalanced by the unbelievable parts.Yes! Totally agree... aaand, I know exactly what you mean about the delicate balance, the fantasy elements grounded in reality, definitely! Um...
With HP perhaps it's really a case of wanting to believe a lot. Hmmm...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-09 10:47 pm (UTC)Never has been for me, but I'm weird like that.
Y'know, I had a dream last night I was reading HBP and really enjoying it and Harry's characterisation because they were so spot-on and I totally believed. Then I woke up. Funny that.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-09 11:00 pm (UTC)